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Why Removal of Bush and Cheney from Office Needs to Be Done Soon

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 09:39 PM
Original message
Why Removal of Bush and Cheney from Office Needs to Be Done Soon
Edited on Sun Jul-22-07 09:47 PM by Time for change
Many DUers (and other Americans as well) have expressed increasing levels of concern in recent days and weeks that Bush and Cheney intend at some point to strip away the remaining façade and turn our nation from a virtual dictatorship into an actual dictatorship, which they would preside over after cancelling the 2008 elections.

There are many good reasons for this fear in my opinion. Since entering office they have both shown nothing but contempt for domestic and international law and for our Constitution.

With George Bush’s hundreds of “signing statements” he has made clear that he, as the supreme “decider” of our nation, has no obligation to defer to Congress’s authority to enact the laws of our nation.

His secret plans for continuance of government in the event of a terrorist attack, given that only the executive branch of our government is privy to those plans, clearly violates the separation of powers at the heart of our constitutional system of government. Just how secret these plans are were demonstrated recently when Oregon Congressman Peter DeFazio requested and was denied access to the plans, though he is a member of the U.S. House Homeland Security Committee.

His obstructing of Congressional investigations into his many crimes and impeachable offenses by refusing to comply with subpoenas, ordering witnesses not to appear before Congress, and then ordering his Justice Department not to pursue contempt charges, further emphasizes his claim of absolute immunity from all the laws of our nation.

Last year The Nation published an article – a semi-spoof – about Bush cancelling the 2008 elections. I refer to this article as a semi-spoof, rather than as a spoof, because The Nation is a very serious publication. They have never done a spoof that I am aware of.

Nobody knows where this will end, but many have been wondering why the Bush-Cheney administration would go to such trouble to destroy the Constitutional basis for the rule of law in our nation if they were planning on giving up power following the 2008 elections. It is a question well worth wondering about.


Why we may be running out of time

Milton Mayer, who studied the thinking of ordinary lower level Nazis during Hitler’s rise to power, explained in his book, “They Thought They Were Free – The Germans 1933-45”, the gradual process by which Germans gave up their freedom to Hitler:

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

Hitler’s takeover of Europe provides a similar case in point. When France allowed Germany to break its treaty obligations and occupy the Rhineland in 1936, they thereby allowed him to acquire an incalculable military advantage, without which he could never have attacked them. His defeat in 1936 was a near certainty if France had called his bluff. Again in 1938, he was appeased when he was given the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia in response to his threat to invade that country.

The lesson from this is clear. The longer we wait the more power Bush and Cheney will accumulate, and the more difficult it will be to dislodge them. If Congress moves to impeach them now, it is very possible that they will attempt a coup de tat. However, if that happens you can be sure that the impeachment effort will have changed only the timing of the coup de tat, not its occurrence. And furthermore, by so changing timing, Congress will also have reduced its likelihood of success, by moving it forward to a point in time when the tyrants would probably be less prepared.

There is no appeasing a Hitler. Nor is it possible to appease a George W. Bush or a Dick Cheney. Anyone who doesn’t see that either is not paying very close attention or is in denial.


Can it happen here?

To those who say that Americans are immune to the tragedy that overtook Germany in the 1930s I say, I hope you’re right, but I see little evidence of it. Consider some parallels:

With both regimes a terrorist event (The Reichstag fire in the case of Germany) provided an excuse to the prevailing regime for extensive suspension of civil liberties guaranteed by their respective constitutions.

Both Bush and Hitler knowingly lied to their own people and to the outside world to justify an invasion of another country that posed no threat to their country – invasions that both leaders had desired for years.

Both regimes exercised a considerable degree of effective control over the primary sources of news in their respective countries.

Hitler used blatant racism to justify and facilitate his consolidation of powers in Germany. Though less obvious, George Bush’s use of “Islamist fundamentalism” to invoke fear in American citizens is undoubtedly a powerful tool for his consolidation of power. The acceptance by many Americans of George Bush’s imprisoning and torture of thousands of Muslims, while allowing them no access to internationally recognized human rights to challenge their detentions, is undoubtedly facilitated by racist attitudes.

Both regimes made it quite clear that they would not be swayed in the slightest bit by world opinion where their own perceived interests were at stake.

Both regimes treated their political opponents ruthlessly – probably as ruthlessly as the realities of the situation would permit.

In the case of both Hitler and Bush, the threat of a de-stabilized republic contributed to pressure to appoint them Chancellor and President respectively, and in both cases the threat of violence was an important factor in leading to their ascension to power.


Consider the impeachment of Richard Nixon

I recently posted an article on DU that described many impeachable offenses committed by Bush/Cheney, for which abundant evidence already exists. One thing I didn’t do in that post was to make comparisons with the impeachment of Richard Nixon. I’ll make those comparisons here as a straight-forward answer to anyone who thinks that the offenses committed by Bush and Cheney don’t rise to the level of impeachable offenses:

Article I – Obstruction of justice
The first article of impeachment against Richard Nixon involved several actions that he took to cover up his involvement in the Watergate break-in.

The Bush/Cheney administration has gone way beyond obstruction of justice with respect to one specific crime. In comparison, they have made a full scale attempt to pervert the whole Justice Department, by firing attorneys who refuse to comply with their political agenda and replacing them with obsequious sheep.

Article II – Violating the Constitutional rights of American citizens
The Constitutional rights involved in this article of impeachment against Richard Nixon pertained almost wholly to his spying on American citizens.

By contrast, the Bush/Cheney administration has repeatedly violated several of our Constitutional rights:

George Bush has denied us our First Amendment rights in numerous ways: He denies the right of protesters to be heard by confining the right of protest to “first amendment zones”. He denies government access to journalists who fail to tow his line. He ties up our airways, using tax dollars, with government propagandists pretending to be real journalists. And he has even claimed the right to imprison journalists who expose administration crimes to the public.

George Bush’s warrantless domestic spying program is a clear example of massive and repeated violations of our Fourth Amendment rights. Though Bush has repeatedly assured Americans that the program’s purpose is to “catch terrorists”, he has offered no evidence to that effect. If the Bush administration’s wiretapping of American citizens had a justifiable basis behind it, there should be no reason it couldn’t request warrants to conduct them. Though Bush claims that that would hamper his “War on Terror”, that claim is patently absurd, since the law allows the requesting of warrants to be retroactive. Furthermore, knowledgeable sources have maintained that, though thousands of warrantless wiretaps per year have been ordered and conducted by the Bush administration, fewer than ten per year are justified by the constitutional standard of “reasonable cause” for suspicion.

In its so-called “War on Terror”, the Bush administration has violated virtually every provision of our Fifth and Sixth Amendments. It is barely an exaggeration to say that our detainees in this so-called war have no rights whatsoever. They are held indefinitely, and only a minute fraction of them have charges brought against them. They are not allowed to confront witnesses against them. They are not given access to counsel. According to our own military, most of them are completely innocent. The whole idea of “innocent until proven guilty” is turned inside out by our administration’s repeated public pronouncements on their guilt.

There is abundant evidence that torture of our detainees is widespread and routine, as documented by Human Rights Watch, Seymour Hersh, Amnesty International, the International Red Cross, and our own FBI. Furthermore, the Bush administration has issued memos affirming its right to torture our prisoners, and George Bush himself has appended a “signing statement” to an anti-torture bill passed by Congress.

Article III – Failure to comply with Congressional subpoenas
I’ve already discussed this issue in the initial portion of this post. Suffice it to say that Bush and Cheney’s refusal to comply with Congressional subpoenas has been flagrant, repeated, without any justifiable excuse, and hardly requires any “investigation” to substantiate.


I think we’ve run out of alternative options

George Bush and Dick Cheney have determined that they have the right to exempt themselves from any law as long as they CLAIM that they are doing it to protect American citizens during wartime. Since our current “War on Terrorism” is not likely to end any time in the foreseeable future, that means that Bush and Cheney have claimed this right for an indefinite period of time.

If they can unilaterally abolish our constitutional rights; if they can assert no accountability whatsoever to Congressional oversight; if they can assert the power to perform the functions of the legislative and judiciary branches of our government; in short, if they can assert that they are totally immune to the rule of law, international and domestic, then what is to prevent them from unilaterally declaring martial law, cancelling the 2008 elections, throwing dissidents into prison (probably to be tortured), and ruling our country with an iron fist for many years to come?

They’ve already shown themselves impervious to any other attempt to reign them in. What tools do we have left other than their impeachment and removal from office?


PS – Don’t forget David Swanson’s recent post, noting that John Conyers has promised to start impeachment hearings if he can find three more Congresspersons to support it. He ends his post by telling us about the impeachment march at Arlington National Cemetery tomorrow (or today, depending on when you’re reading this), Monday, July 23rd, and saying:

Not everyone will be able to take part. But everyone can take two minutes on Monday and do two things: phone Chairman Conyers at 202-225-5126 and ask him to start the impeachment of dick Cheney; and phone your own Congress Member at 202-224-3121 and ask them to immediately call Conyers' office to express their support for impeachment. Your Congress Member might just be one of the three needed, not just to keep us out of jail but to keep this nation from devolving into dictatorship.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. It Can't Happen Here
Can it?
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Didnt I see at you at another impeach diary... ?
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speakclearly Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
39. You are right
It can't happen here. Despite what you may think of the military, let alone the government, there would not be any support for the President to suspend elections and claim dictatorial powers. The military would not let him do it, and the President would not be able to enforce his deicisions. Secondaly, about 75% of the Federal civil service workers (as determined by many polls) are Democratic party voters/members. There would be a "shut down" of government operations. The workers who actually run the government would not respond to Bush leadership decisions. The SCOTUS and th courts would not recognize the actions taken to seize dictatorial power. In all likelihood, even the Secret Service that protects the President would not support him in such an action. No person could be successful in such a coup when they do not have popular support (see Venezuala), or military support (see Thailand), or government support (see Russia). Say what you like about Bush/Cheney, but neiother of these men are so stupid as to think they could pull this off!
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doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #39
51. Ummmmm .......
maybe you should read the book "It Can't Happen Here" and get to know the 'Corpos' ...... also the book referred to in the OP above "They Thought They Were Free" ...... then take a look at who's on the SCOTUS now, ummmm .... see whom Bush has in high places of the Armed Forces ..... ummmmmmmm ..... see the history of Dictators when their respective populaces were kept in 'fear' (through propaganda) from attack by some un-known force from the outside ...

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on
a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people
don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in
Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country."


Hermann Goering

Anyway I want to believe in the overall theme of your post that NO AMERICA WON'T STAND FOR AN ATTEMPTED COUP by the Bush Regime. And I hope your correct if any of this all comes down to it. Lots of possibility's, may we live in interesting times. Peace.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #39
52. Wanna bet?
I couldn't disagree with you more and I'm sure that my Grandparents who escaped Nazi Germany would have loved to have sat down with you for several hours and told you how most of their fellow Germans didn't think "It could happen" either.

A) Given the right circumstances of a "national emergency/disaster" (lets say a nuclear bomb in the middle of major cities or something like that), Bush could declare a National Emergency, declare martial law and you better believe that in all the panic, pandemonium, and fear, that the military and Nat'l Guard (now under Bush's control and with the elimination of the Posse Comitatus act) would follow Bush's orders and especially after being desensitized in the multiple Iraq deployments, suffering PTSD, they would very likely even be willing to commit acts even they never thought possible on their own citizens, especially if they were convinced that the "enemy" was amongst us. Sure there would be some soldiers and even many officers who would refuse, but they would be dealt with quickly. Even some officers I know who disagree with the administration and want a change, know there should never be a "Seven Days in May" type situation with a military coup and needs to be avoided at all cost. That makes it then all the easier to squash any dissent and the administration knows it. And meanwhile, we have how many Blackwater trained private military personnell whose allegiance is to money and would follow orders that most soldiers wouldn't???

B) Not sure where you got your 75% of Gov't workers are Dems number, but lets just assume for a moment your right and that's accurate. So? You really think that in a National Emergency declared by King George and say a suspension of elections and other civil liberties, that all those workers would cease any activity and not show up for work? I highly doubt it, especially since a lot of those civil servants have mortgages and need to put food on the table. In fact, it would probably be easiest to get them working over all others, especially if they were guaranteed things (such as food and water that was safe) when other members of the population would not have it. And perhaps you don't recall when in the past there have been budget and gov't shutdowns and most gov't employees sent home (except essential) and guess what....the gov't and the US kept running.

C) The SCOTUS and courts wouldn't recognize the actions taken? Really? What if some judges were disappeared (or died in an unfortunate accident during the Nat'l Emergency) and were replaced immediately by order of the Preseident under his powers, you don't think that Bush could do what he wanted? This by the way happened in Germany and my Grandparents knew some Justices who were threatened and removed if they didn't go along with the Reich. Their families were threatened and they either went along or were out a job...or worse. Hey, Justice Breyer was "mugged" while jogging...shit happens.

D)Secret Service not willing to protect a President they don't agree with??? Wow...guess you don't know much about the Secret Service. They are purposely selected to do their job without any political motivation etc. Their psychological profiles are such that regardless of what is going on around them, they protect the President, no matter what. I couldn't disagree with you more on the idea that if they "disagreed" with the President and his actions, that they would refuse to participate. And I'm sure the Bushies have made extra sure that the ones that protect them are loyal Bushies to boot.

Bush and Cheney stupid to try a crazy thing like declaring martial law and suspending elections? No, I'd never call them stupid. I think they are quite clever and very smart and devious and would have all the pieces in place in the infrastructure and laws before trying something like that as well as the "perfect storm" of events like a terrorist attack etc.

And yes, it can happen here. I posted this in response to your post, not because I want to try to convince you or to change your mind, but because my grandparents told me a long time ago that there are those that either refuse to see or can't see. If you are at all curious, read Sinclair Lewis's book "It can happen here" and some of the books on the rise of Nazi's in Germany. One thing you'll realize is how many people were in denial about how truly bad things were until it was too late. Knowledge is power and allows those that are informed to do things to protect themselves.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #39
56. I would like to believe you are correct, and I certainly don't think I have the answers
However, these kinds of things have happened throughout history, and I don't see anything about the current United States of America that would make them immune. If anything, it seems to me that the evidence points in the other direction. Time after time the Bush administration goes one step further in abolishing our Constitution, and there is no universal outrage expressed about it. Outrage on DU, sure. And some other places.

But most Americans are somewhat apathetic about this. They have been raised to believe, and they have been conditioned by our corporate media to believe, that "it can't happen here". And that is perhaps one of the best reasons to believe, IMO, that it CAN happen here.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #56
107. Here's another thread on the insidious changes that ultimately
could cause great harm. Ties in with the second part of your post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1398611

called the Hard Chill Begins to Bite.....LibertyorDeath op

Had little time for DU the last couple of days.....wish I had seen this to give a K&R to.....belated and doesn't count but here it is anyway! K&R :kick:
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Knightly_Knews Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
58. Man Bush does not care about our Military...
Edited on Mon Jul-23-07 12:11 PM by Knightly_Knews
Our Military is so depleted right now.. They are all exhausted and pretty much traumatized into PTSD. Besides that, have you ran by your local National Guard post lately? Go have a look, there is no equipment.

Blackwater, on the other hand has plenty of Equipment.. As a matter of fact they have 600 Acres of land right down the road from me filled with equipment.. And not only equipment, but mock American cities, and a high school where they practice civil disorder drills daily. There are 3 Blackwater sites located in the USA. They also have many other affiliates connected to this. It's called a Black Army.. Here is one of Blackwaters affiliates, how do you like their Banner?

Now tell me why they would have the crosshairs aiming at the scales of justice? With the phrase "On The Front Lines At Home"..
They feel compelled to tell us what the logo means here:
http://www.borelliconsulting.com/bcilogo.htm
But I do not Buy into that... They added this explanation only after the controversial logo had been brought to light online.

They have their own Military...

Don't be surprised if they launch a massive attack in Iraq soon. Once that happens, there goes 130,000+ troops all in one shot. Let's hope this is not the scenario.. But, Remember Bushco has said this will be a bloody summer in Iraq, and Chertoff saying he has a gut feeling about us being attacked in the US this summer as well.. And them telling us that Al-Qaeda is back to Pre 9/11 status and are sending agents here to kill us.. All Propaganda bullshit to invoke terror and/or Martial Law. Order over dissenters!

I hope that clears everything up for you.. :)
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #39
77. You are so very wrong
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libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. We need to get the jump on 'em.
We might already be behind the power curve. What if it's too late already? I'm scaring myself.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. There is no evidence to suggest that Impeachment will happen, and Al Gore will be a candidate
In fact all indicates point to just the opposite


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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. Tell the woman in your avatar
You're preaching to the choir here. Its the Dems in Congress who need convincing.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
35. The woman in my avatar
is the only U.S. Senator, as far as I know, to openly recommend the impeachment of George Bush:

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/24602#comment-132689

I've always said that you need to keep it (impeachment) on the table, and you need to look at these things, because now people are dying because of this administration. That's the truth. And they won't change course. They are ignoring the Congress. They keep signing these signing statements which mean that he's decided not to enforce the law. This is as close as we've ever come to a dictatorship. When you have a situation where Congress is stepped on, that means the American people are stepped on. So I don't think you can take anything off the table. Because in fact the Constitution doesn't permit us to take these things off the table.

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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #35
54. My bad - I thought it was Pelosi
Carry on...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
67. Barbara Boxer for Majority Leader . . ..
She's telling us that Congress has already been "dismissed" --
Big power shift has already taken place --

Also agree that I really don't like this administration's closeness with the military industrial complex -- mercenaries -- Halliburton/KBR

And, then, too -- Katrina --
What power do we have in even trying to get that situation arighted?
Where have these people gone? Look at the disruption to their lives --
Can they vote? They can't even get home or get housing as far as I can see!!!

So, I don't think things will go on EXACTLY as they have before -- but people will be abused to get what they want -- it's possible now because we've come this far.

Global Warming will perhaps given them opportunities -- like Katrina.
The Anthrax deal is still uninvestigaged -- and looks like a military deal.
The neo-cons are quite fond of biological weapons to be used as a tool to control the public.

The point is, we've already waited too long -- !!!

Where has everyone been -- !!!




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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. Great post! Check this out:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
78. Thank you -- apparently the truth may be no better than that
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
6. Brilliant!
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Hey La La, I wholeheartedly agree.
Hey, this one needs to be spread around the net.
You know how to make that happen.

See about doing that, please.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
83. sent out to my whole email list
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Thank you lala - That's great to hear
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thank you. K&R
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
8. A good argument, eloquently summed up
Let's hope many more start to "connect the dots" and realize what's happening here.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. they're going to run out the clock, get used to it.
impeachment isn't going to happen. face it.
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SoonerPride Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. "People will starve. Face it." No thanks, I'll fight it.
If enough stand up and are heard, a difference can still be made.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #17
42. not enough are going to be standing up in the next 17 months...
and that's all they have left.

if you want to fight a lost cause, bang your head against a wall, etc..etc... for those 17 months- be my guest.

but i can ASSURE you right now that it's a waste of time, and a completely lost cause...:shrug:
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. They're going to get rid of "the clock" altogether. Are you going to face that?
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #18
40. no, they aren't.
they have 17 months left.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
10. Great post, thanks, KnR
I think its near time we start talking about a placeholder for when Bush And Cheney are removed frm office. I wrote about a scenario where Richard Lugar is placeholder thru ;08:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1402399
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
80. Thanks -- I like the idea of a placeholder
Anything to get this awful regime out of ealloffice. It's a bit of a compromise, in that Republicans really really really don't deserve to occupy the White House. But these thugs just have to go. And allowing them to remain in office is a terrible affront to anyone who cares about democracy or our Constitution.
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deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. k + r
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
14. try to explain this to your neighbor!
I had a conversation with my neighbor about this a few days ago and she thoughts I was completely loony!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
30. Deleted message
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doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #30
47. I like your thinking and fighting spirit Knightly_Knews !
Never give up, never surrender ! And welcome to DU !
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Knightly_Knews Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
75. Well thanks...
and I love the link you have in your signature... Going there now.. I appreciate the warm welcome..
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
86. Yes, I have experiences like that too
Even when I talk with liberal friends about things like MIHOP, they just aren't very prepared to accept it or even consider it.

It's just too scary and out of the general frame of reference to believe that American democracy isn't working or that our leaders have evil intentions. It is tunnel vision in my opinion, and exhibits either a lack of familiarity with history or some ingrained sense that Americans are qualitatively different than other people.... They aren't.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. Excellent post
the best I've seen on the subject.

bookmarked!
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
16. I blame Congress and the Democratic Majority for not impeaching.
They are complicit in this.

S.O.S.

S.O.S.

S.O.S.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
68. You have to go back at least to LBJ and Warren Commission . . .
Edited on Mon Jul-23-07 02:58 PM by defendandprotect
That was a major en plein aire coup --

about which our "free press" and government did nothing --

People were already being threatened at that point --

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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. I believe impeachment is the trump card they are HEAVILY trying to stop!
Edited on Sun Jul-22-07 11:49 PM by calipendence
I think a lot of the "excuses" we're hearing from Democrats on why "impeachment is off the table" or "we don't support impeachment" are just that. EXCUSES! I feel from looking at a lot of different indications tied together, we're seeing a pattern of people in denial that add up more to heavy pressure (blackmail, violence or some other extreme sort of pressure) to NOT start impeachment hearings. I think these forces are content to have people have what they consider meaningless and meandering hearings that they can run out the clock with so that Bushco can play the cards described here (and by people like Paul Craig Roberts) when they feel that the time is right to do so. We NEED to find out where this pressure is being applied and by who and exercise countermeasures as soon as possible to get impeachment accelerated.

Consider the following:

1) Two senators you would expect to MOST go after impeachment, Russell Feingold and Bernie Sanders, both on separate occasions have said that they "don't support impeachment" and feel that their time can be spent better elsewhere. This doesn't seem in character to me to individuals like these. Sanders is disappointing Thom Hartmann and his audience saying this multiple times, and Feingold is disappointing those who earlier felt encouraged by his censure resolution, which at the time seemed appropriate, but now seems kind of pointless by comparison and a waste of time. Something doesn't seem right about the way their logic is being given to us for their lack of support of this.

2) We all know that Nancy Pelosi and various other entities in the House, including Conyers, who you also would expect to be more vocal about impeachment have been up to now saying "impeachment is off the table." This doesn't seem right too.

3) Dennis Kucinich stands out as the one person that seems to be leading the bandwagon on the small effort that there is so far on going after Cheney. And of course as indicated on another thread here earlier. Dennis is already used to having lived through an assassination attempt while serving as mayor, so perhaps he's a bit more immune to more serious threats than other congress people are.

4) There has been very quieted "coverup" of some investigations even on the part of Democrats:
a) Those following Sibel Edmonds' efforts to be able to testify about what she likely knows as many impeachable offenses are very frustrated that Henry Waxman (who otherwise is pursuing a lot of investigations now) is not following up on earlier seeming commitments that he'd call her in to testify before the Government Oversight Committee and is very quiet about not doing so. Why?
b) A recently leaked FBI report on Duke Cunningham that highlights some very serious allegations from him towards other people like Brent Wilkes, Kontogiannis, various CIA people like Dusty Foggo, etc. and likely other congress people like Jerry Lewis.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2921313

It appears that there were attempts to keep this report secret by the Democratic Party Intelligence chair Silvestre Reyes, and the guilty plea and court records of Kontogiannis were sealed as well. Famed lawyer Mark Geragos dropped Brent Wilkes as a client when he was being asked to go through a background check.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2921099&mesg_id=2921099

To me, this looks like some Democrats are also facilitating some coverup of perhaps the more egregious abuses and those that might accelerate an impeachment effort. The question is WHY? People like Waxman, are like Feingold and Sanders, not the types of politicians that I would classify "for sale". So I wonder if there is other forms of pressure being applied to them to keep them from moving on impeachment. That to me folks, is scary. We might be facing not only heavy corruption that's keeping this conspiracy from being uncovered, but some very deep and serious threats being made on others (blackmail, threats of violence, etc.). When you consider these possibilities, then the theories posed by Paul Craig Roberts on their plans for an event to enable them to exercise EO 51, or reasons why they are trying to bypass FISA Court scrutiny seem that much more clearer to me.

What this all adds up to in my mind is the need to do two separate efforts:

1) Be very observant where possible to find out where folks like these might be threatened to keep quiet. If this can be spotted and brought forward, perhaps we can force open this Pandora's box soon before it's too late.

2) Be very observant in our communities to watch for any kind of suspicious behavior that might indicate some sort of plot activity that Paul Craig Roberts suggests might be happening. If we can document anything that might be happening instead of just "waiting" for it to happen ala 9/11, maybe we can have our own "Pearl Harbor" moment to mobilize the citizenry to do something like a general strike to demand impeachment. Unfortunately, without such evidence, I think it might be hard to mobilize the citizenry, as Paul Craig Roberts and others note.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
69. I agree with your concerns re Sanders/Feingold -- where the heck is Ted Kennedy?
Talking about the taming of opinions -- !!!!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
92. I share your concerns
As I've stated a number of times, I am totally bewildered by the lack of enthusiasm for impeachment by so many Democrats. It often makes me feel that there is something going on that I am unaware of, that is very important. I'm afraid that I will go to my grave without understanding this. :(
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pepperbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
20. 1 Word.... Blackwater. n/t
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. In 3 locations n/t
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Knightly_Knews Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #31
46. And their biggest location
is 20 miles from my house in Moyock, NC... Talk about scared shitless.. I see what these guys do everyday.. I was even followed by a few last year after posting some information about them.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #46
65. Wow! That's scary
So, how did they know that you posted it? Did you use your real name? Did they just follow you, or did they go beyond that?
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Knightly_Knews Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. You don't need to use your real name...
Everything you post online is tied to an IP number.. If that IP number happens to be in your name, that is all they need.. You know, that wire tapping thing?
It's a very strange strange story.. Certain articles I wrote concerning Mr. Erik Prince would get hacked. Images that I did NOT post appeared out of no where. Images like GW holding a hand gun with the phrase "I have Martial Law on my Side and a handgun, Any Takers?"
My fiance even observed them once following us.. It was very surreal..

These fuckers had me so paranoid last year, I quit investigating them.

Now I have finally said to hell with them.. It's either face the dragon or let my Country burn in flames.. I am not too fond of the latter!

Peace,
Knight
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #66
96. In one of our political groups here, someone else knew people close to them here...

The ones that are trying to get a "base" built here in Potrero Hills. They said the same thing basically you did, that these folks are scary and you don't want to mess with them.

Also was word that there was a boat they had here in San Diego harbor the night they had the Democratic state convention here, and that they were trying to do some "persuasion" with lobbying efforts there that evening...

It sounds like these guys play nasty! It's gotten pretty quiet about their plans here lately. Perhaps we need to look into it more again to make sure that their not trying to sneak other things by us here!
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
21. Great post, great links. K&R
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
22. Send this to Pelosi, Hoyer, and Reid . Thanks n/t
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
23. K&R. (nt)
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
24. K&R Important comparison of Germany's slide into fascism...
... and our own. Too many look at that period as just fodder for people old enough to remember it to sit on the porch and say "ain't it awful."

Actually, it is awful, and it is important to look at the parallels between then and now before it's too late to stop a complete repitition of past tyranny.

Great and informative post, as always from you!

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
81. Thank you -- There is too much reluctance in this country to believe that
Americans are susceptable to some of the same traps that other people are. I think that's one big reason that we're in such trouble now. Most Americans can't accept that an American president and VP could be that bad.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #81
97. Correct. After we stormed the beaches at Normandy...
... Americans were world saviors, the good guys. It's hard for me to swallow this bitter pill, but I'm old enough for the events to have impacted me and my family personally. I was in my two-year-old crib when my father was fighting in the Ardennes, but when he and his comrades came home, they brought the war with them, and it colored our personal and national histories for decades.

Now WWII and its tyranny is just a video game or a trip to the Holodeck for a lot of younger people.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
25. my greatest feat is that Congress will fail to act in time . . .
to prevent the worst case scenario -- a full-blown BushCo dictatorship that effectively ends their role in governance . . . what do they do when Bush announces that Congress is null and void, with no power whatsoever? . . . will they THEN move to impeach? . . . will he even let them assemble in the Capitol? . . .

stop them now, Congress . . . your time may fast be running out . . .

great post, btw . . . k/r . . .
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. Congress asses are on the line too, they think about themselves
first before they think about American citizens.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
94. Thank you -- my feelings exactly
I wish to hell I knew what was going on in their minds. This is just incomprehensible to me.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
26. K&R
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 05:21 AM
Response to Original message
27. KB&R!!!
;-)
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
28. All it takes for evil to triumph...
...is for good men to do nothing.

I'm afraid I have been forced to eliminate the possibility that W is misguided or incompetant. He is evil, evil in a way we don't see very often. We're so used to thinking of evil as a rampaging Jeffrey Dahmer or a cartoon Lex Luther that we often fail to recognise it when it turns up and we forget that sometimes, it can wear a nice suit and carry a clipboard and be just doing it's job.

Impeachment may fail. But from the words of one great man to those of another. Someone once asked Churchill what England would do if Big Ben were bombed. He replied that it would be rebuilt. And if it were bombed again? And he replied that it would be rebuilt again, and again, and again, as many times as necessary. When faced with true evil, the only recourse is total defiance. There's no shame in fighting and losing but there's no honour in not fighting at all.

K&R by the way.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
95. Bush and Cheney are about as evil as they come
Evil rarely comes with a warning label. Much more often it's wrapped in several layers of lies and deceit. And those who rail the most against it are often the worst culprits.

"Impeachment may fail"... I like what Keith Olbermann had to say about this more than I like what Churchill had to say about it. Something to the effect that "I may lose my job for saying these things, but at least I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that I deeply believed in what I said". Thank God for Keith.
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Knightly_Knews Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #95
108. As the saying goes...
Fascism will come wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross...


Peace,
Knight!
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 05:49 AM
Response to Original message
29. k&r
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seeker4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
32. Because their terms are up in a few months?
Edited on Mon Jul-23-07 06:51 AM by seeker4ever
Because so much irreparable damage has already been done?

In all seriousness, these are criminals we are dealing with and we are all guilty of allowing it to go on this long. It should NEVER happen again.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
34. k/r
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
36. Removal of Bush/Cheney needs to be done now
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Zensea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
37. There is a major flaw in this paranoia
Edited on Mon Jul-23-07 09:10 AM by Zensea
and in all these calls for impeachment based on these hypothetical doomsday scenarios.
IF they are going to create a dictatorship what makes you think that impeachment will make a damn bit of difference?
People who create dictatorships don't pay that much attention to legal niceties.
Impeachment will have as much chance of stopping them as anything else IF they intend to create a dictatorship.
That is, no chance.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #37
48. I addressed that in my OP
If they intend to do this, the sooner they have to play their hand the better. Better that they be forced to do it on our schedule than that they have all the time in the world to plan this. The sooner they are forced to do it, the less chance of success. Forcing them to do it soon may even pre-empt their attempt.

In any event, what do we have to lose by attempting to impeach them? If they are planning a coup they will do it anyhow. I seriously doubt that an attempt at impeaching them will cause a coup attempt that wouldn't have occurred anyhow. And if they're NOT planning a coup, they need to be impeached anyhow.
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Knightly_Knews Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #48
57. We need to start preparing for...
a People's coup d'état, very soon... If Congress cannot do it, it is up to us! It has to be done, one way or another, or this Country will change drastically and very soon.. Like in the next 17 Months while these assholes are still in office.. Much less in this Country... I hope they know that their(BushCo's) future residency will not lie within these borders.. The Hague or even Gitmo are too good for these crooks!
To The Gallows with them. Impeach/Indict/Incarcerate
Just make sure you try them in a State that recognizes the Death Penalty, because as far as I can see they are responsible for the murder of Millions to date! Americans and Foreigners alike.. :mad: :puke:
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ChickMagic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
38. K&R
This is just what I have feared all along. People have called me nuts. We'll see who is nuts when the time comes. That slap Gonzo made at Hillary is appalling.
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Buttercup McToots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
41. Bump
You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else. Winston Churchill
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ChickMagic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
43. Crap
There's nobody in the office and all the mailboxes are full. Does anyone know when they'll be back?
Conyers, that is.
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Probably Sept 1st
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ChickMagic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Thanks!
I want to yell at them now! It's a good sign, I guess, that the mailboxes are full.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #44
55. Summer recess begins Aug 6
If you can't get hold of them in DC, call their district offices.

No vacation from this issue, no way.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #55
70. There should be no summer recess -- Reid should cancel it !!!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #43
50. I got through to his office using the number that David Swanson supplied (see my OP)
I asked if the rumor was true that Conyers intended to initiate impeachment hearings if he could find three more Congresspersons to get on board.

I was told that his statement was misinterpreted. What he meant to say was that if "everyone" (I think meaning everyone who is currently on board) could find three more supporters he would initiate impeachment hearings.

His staffer told me that he will probably make some sort of official announcement on where he stands with this pretty soon, but she couldn't say exactly when. She said it could be today, but maybe not. She sounded to me like she might be overwhelmed with similar phone calls.

I told her how I felt about the need for impeachment, and she said she would pass it on to him.
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ChickMagic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. Thanks for the information
It's so frustrating to call and not even be able to leave a message.
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Vilis Veritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
49. You forgot one more piece of evidence.
Bush family involvement with Nazi Germany through banking.

Link 1:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html

Link 2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott_Bush

"On October 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City. President Franklin Roosevelt's Alien Property Custodian, Leo T. Crowley, signed Vesting Order Number 248 seizing the property of Prescott Bush under the Trading with the Enemy Act. The order, published in obscure government record books and kept out of the news, cited only the Union Banking Corporation (UBC) connections with Von Thyssen.

E. Roland Harriman--3991 shares (managed and under voting control of Prescott Bush)
Cornelis Lievense--4 shares (He was the New York banker of the German Nazi Party)
Harold D. Pennington--1 share (Employed by Prescott Bush at Brown Brothers Harriman)
Ray Morris--1 share (a business partner of the Bush and Harriman families)
Prescott S. Bush--1 share (director of UBC, which was co-founded and sponsored by his father-in-law George Walker; senior managing partner for E. Roland Harriman and Averell Harriman)
H.J. Kouwenhoven--1 share (organised UBC for Von Thyssen, managed UBC in Nazi occupied Netherlands)
Johann G. Groeninger--1 share (German Industrial Executive, a not unimportant member of the Nazi party)" From Wikipedia.

Please note who REALLY controlled the bank. Although Prescott Bush had only one share, he was managing and in control of the majority of the shares.

Peace
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Knightly_Knews Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. OK wait holy shit...
Edited on Mon Jul-23-07 11:42 AM by Knightly_Knews
if nothing else proves BushCo's motive for screwing over the USA this does for sure. They seized Prescott Bush's properties??.. That sounds like a recent executive order to me.. Man he takes this grudge shit seriously doesn't he?

Man we are fucked.


Peace,
Knight!
On Edit: I have known about the Hitler connection for quite some time, but I never read about the seizure of properties. WOW Man.. This is gonna get nasty!
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Vilis Veritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #53
105. That happened in '42
It took 60 years for payback.

Peace
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jmrobins00 Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
60. k & r
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
61. I would love that
Which 17 Republicans Senators will vote to remove them from office?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. After the crimes of the Bush administration get intense coverage on TV
which means that many Americans learn Americans will learn about them for the first time.

I expect then that the percentage of Americans who favor impeachment will rise from near 50% where it now stands, to substantially higher than that.

Then, any Republican who worries about being re-elected (which I believe will be far more than 17) will feel much pressure to vote for impeachment.

That's the way I see it, anyhow.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #62
71. Just as MSM has played a major role in the GOP-"Swiftboating" . . .
it is now smothering talk of impeachment and even if it begins, I think there will be "Swiftboating" of evidence.

In other words, I don't think the "free press" will be with you --
and in fact I think they will distort the information.


As we see happening every day . . . if you watch MSM --


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. The end result cannot be creating more fear for ourselves . . .
Let me ask that you all review in your minds what is being expressed in these threads and I think you will see great FEAR but not too much that I think would frighten a GOP neo-con reading any of these threads --

What threat do we really hold on a neo-con cult with no conscience --
What might they be fearing -- and they certainly do fear --
If you don't understand that, you don't understand them at all.

I think their main drive for power/control is fear-based.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Yes, but it's somewhat difficult to spin something once it's televised and
several million Americans are eye witnesses to it.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #62
106. Sorry to be so late in reading your reply
Yesterday was a hectic day.

Honestly, I thought that after the 2006 elections the Rs would see the writing on the wall and start acting more like reasonable human beings. I never expect this bunch to be completely reasonable. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case. Look at Voinovich, for heaven's sake. He's calling for change in Iraq policy, but he STILL voted against cloture on something that would only support our troops.

I don't see them coming around to a conviction to remove Bush/Cheney at any point. At least, not enough of them. You have to remember they're the ones who acted as if Terri Schiavo was ready for a dancing career.

And we sure can't depend on Lieberman.

You are right, I think, that impeachment investigations would get more press. I doubt even Faux Snooze could ignore that! But I don't see any chance in hell that we'd get Bush/Cheney out of office if they were caught with underage drug-addicted hookers in their beds.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
63. You have hit the nail on the head with this observation



"If Congress moves to impeach them now, it is very possible that they will attempt a coup d'etat ."

Those in the know in the Democratic party know this

to be the case I believe and they are hoping against hope

that Bush\Rove\Cheney\Gonzales will go quietly

because of an electoral defeat in 08.

Anyone who has watched these people operate for any length of time

knows this will not be the case.



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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #63
101. It's hard to imagine them going quietly, isn't it?
Yet, I think that odds are much better now than if we wait for 2008.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
64. K & R, bookmarked. n/t
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cutlassmama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
73. K & R eom
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
76. We can no longer wait here in New Orleans.
Our lives depend on the rest of America getting OFF THEIR FAT ASSES AND DEMAND IMPEACHMENT!!!!!!!!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
79. Thanks for such an excellent post! I've sent this far and wide!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #79
99. Thank you -- that's great to hear
I sincerely hope that the people you send it to are able to make use of it.
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Altean Wanderer Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
82. Excellent summary of BushCo's treachery n/t
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #82
109. Which deserves another
:kick:
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KAT119 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
85. Pres. Eisenhower was asked upon leaving office if there will ever be Peace
in our world, and he immediately replied: 'Oh yes, when every man, woman and child leaves their homes from every city, town and village and takes to the streets and DEMANDS Peace from their gov'ts. Gov'ts make war, people don't want the war.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #85
91. I had no idea Eisenhower said that
He said some very wise things, and overall I think he was a decent president.

But his regime changes in Iran and Guatamela were terriblly destructive, not to mention immoral. I don't know what possessed him to go through with it, except that he was aggressively urged to do so by his very conservative Secretary of State.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #85
102. I didn't know about that either -- !! When do we hit the streets???
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
87. Here's what's going to happen...
If they do get the votes and start impeachment, Bush and Cheney stage a terrorist attack, declare Bush the government and everyone in the Congress gets rounded up and thrown in Gitmo.
Even if they do try to impeach, they're going to stop it. Even when the next election rolls around, they're not going to give up the power if they can help it.
We need to start being realistic here.
Duckie
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. Realistic? So what do you suggest?
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. I think we should at least try,
But we need to be realistic about it and know what's coming our way when it happens.
Duckie
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Yes, I agree
I do believe that there is a very good chance that BushCo will try to stage a coup if impeached.

But I also believe that the earlier it's done the less chance it will be successful. We do need to be ready for it.

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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #90
98. Perhaps we need some good "insurance policy" generals in the military?
Those that would make sure that the coup, if there is one involving the military would be used to PROPERLY arrest and throw in the slammer those bums that tried to take over this government, and then later restore it back to our traditional Democratic government once the criminals have been weeded out.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. Yeah -- One of my all time favorite heroes is
Colonel Staffenberg:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/20/newsid_3505000/3505014.stm

I wonder how many like minded souls occupy our current military?

Unfortunately, things didn't turn out too well for him. :(
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. In our case we need back someone like Smedley Butler!
Edited on Mon Jul-23-07 09:50 PM by calipendence
Who would smell out these f'ers and stop it in its tracks like he did for FDR. Only this time, I'd give him his medals of honors AFTER rescuing the Republic not take them away then. That guy should be put in our textbooks as a hero, and be "disappeared" like he has for so many of our childhoods. Maybe if we can survive through and get a new administration in 2009, we can work towards that happening, along with whatever heroes might save the country this time around!

http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/030928warracket.htm
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
93. watch this video and
help bring our troops home

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tMACzBomDK4
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doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #93
104. Watched it .
More faces of the fallen need to be shown on MSM. Yea bring um home. Stop this illegal war and the madness. Welcome to DU lame54! And Peace. :hi:
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