I think,...Gravel is right. I am no longer going to deny our soldiers are dying in vain.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

It's an aweful thing to arrive at that point but,...I do firmly believe it is true. They ARE dying in vain.

:cry:

Makes me horribly sad.

[madokie]

1. yes they are

[Peregrine Took]

2. All honest people will admit it.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

6. I just,...didn't want to acknowledge it mostly because,...I do love and appreciate our military.

I don't want to offend my family and friends who serve in the armed forces.

But, the truth is,...our military members have died in vain,...NOT to protect us or our laws or freedoms or to help the Iraqi people. The truth is,...they died for selfish, malignant causes.

:cry:

I rarely hate anything or one but I do hate what this administration has done to so many innocent, noble, honorable people. I hate it!!!

[tridim]

7. Yes, but politician can't, especially Presidential candidates.

That's just a fact of politics.

[John Q. Citizen]

46. Why not? Assasination? Or a major break with the oligarchy that will result in

defacto exile?

[goodhue]

3. of course they are dying in vain

It's sad that our candidates won't acknowledge that

[Rydz777]

4. According to Harry Reid yesterday, another 600 of our troops

have died since the beginning of the "surge." It is heartbreaking. This must be brought to a stop NOW.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

8. 600 of our troops, probably 6000 or more innocent people who just happen to live in Iraq.

The whole thing is a great, big, aweful tragedy THAT WAS COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY!!!

Completely unnecessary,...:cry:

[Solly Mack]

5. Yes - our government is killing troops for nothing but lies and trumped up evidence

(and theft of resources) and that means they are dying in vain

[Rageneau]

9. I've known from Jump Street that all these deaths are in vain.

Unless you are Bush/Cheney, in which case, all those nice people died to help us get richer and richer and richer.

[Solly Mack]

10. Me too, Rageneau

and it's no easier now knowing that than it was then

[leftchick]

11. Gravel Speaks What The Others Dare Not to!

It is so sad we have come down to this. Politicians vilified for finally speaking the truth!

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

12. Well, he certainly gets my attention,...even makes me laugh from time to time.

He is plain-spoken. I can't help but like him.

(my brain working faster than my fingers can, again)

[bananarepublican]

40. He was right about Vietnam too. JFK - NMS263 - would have had tropps out by the end of '65!

This is one of the reasons behind his assassination.

[judaspriestess]

13. Gravel is pointing out the painful

truth. Why sugarcoat it? Why make it sound softer and prettier than what the cold hard reality is.
People out there want war then get shocked when they hear the ugly reality of it. Where is the disconnect?

[KittyWampus]

14. You have no right to speak for each individual soldier and their family. You have a right to your

opinion. But your opinion is worth nothing when it comes to each individual troop.

NO ONE can assign meaning to another's life. That is up to each of us... and our loved ones.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

15. True.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

16. btw I wasn't rendering a value judgment against individual troop members or,...

,...their families. I hope you know that.

I believe they died and are dying in vain,...but I don't believe their lives were in vain.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. It ain't their life that's meaningless.

It's their death.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

23. That was the point I was trying to make. It's hard to avoid being misunderstood these days.

But, I realize,...we are ALL living in very trying times.

[stillcool]

17. To be truthful...

they are not dying in vain. They are dying for oil. I would love to hear a debate regarding the necessity of our presence in that region. There are less than a handful of democrats who do not espouse our continued presence in that region. The oil law is the benchmark for our reduction in troop levels. When people lie to me, I assume they do not want me to know the truth. There could be some very valid reasons for why they feel the oil in that region is necessary for what they regard as this nation's interests. Absent the truth of their opinions, I am left to draw my own conclusions...fuck them.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

20. iow they are dying for a cause other than the cause they were supposed to die for n/t

[stillcool]

24. I think 'Freedom' and'National Security'...

could theoretically be valid excuses for the invasion of Iraq..if they were explained in terms that outlined the necessity for control of the flow of oil. Sometimes I can find logic for the reasons, but the methods always trip me up.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

27. The "necessity for control of the flow of oil",...you may want to start with the logic in that,...

,...and include the notions of democracy, human rights, rule of law,...stuff like that,...

THEN, try to work the notions of "freedom" and "national security" into the web of power over people.

[stillcool]

41. Praseology

the notion that Iraq could be justified in terms of 'freedom' and 'nation security', is not beyond my realm of comprehension. I wrote:

I would love to hear a debate regarding the necessity of our presence in that region. There are less than a handful of democrats who do not espouse our continued presence in that region. The oil law is the benchmark for our reduction in troop levels. When people lie to me, I assume they do not want me to know the truth. There could be some very valid reasons for why they feel the oil in that region is necessary for what they regard as this nation's interests. Absent the truth of their opinions, I am left to draw my own conclusions...fuck them.

[WinkyDink]

32. Oh, so because we need oil we can invade and steal it? Is THAT "not dying in vain"?

WE need to "control the flow of oil" that isn't OURS?

So can, say, Russia bomb us pre-emptively for her "National Security"?

[stillcool]

43. Did I say we need to invade and steal oil?

No. What I did say, was that it would be nice to hear candidates speak honestly about our reasons for being in Iraq..and that considering that less than a handful of members of the democratic party believe that our continued presence in that region is not necessary...there may be some valid reasons for their belief. I also said that I believed that the terms 'national security' and 'freedom' may have some credence in that belief that our presence in that region is vital. Gosh, either I don't write well, or y'all don't read well.

[GOTV]

35. To me, that IS dying in vain n/t

[Raine]

19. Gravel tells it like it is

I really like him...he tells the truth. :thumbsup:

[Karenina]

21. Soldiers are dying to enable American corporate interests

to STEAL the resources of another nation. PUNKT.

[Poiuyt]

22. They are dying because Bush wanted to be a popular war president

“He was thinking about invading Iraq in 1999,” said author and journalist Mickey Herskowitz. “It was on his mind. He said to me: ‘One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief.’ And he said, ‘My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it.’ He said, ‘If I have a chance to invade….if I had that much capital, I’m not going to waste it. I’m going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I’m going to have a successful presidency.”

Herskowitz said that Bush expressed frustration at a lifetime as an underachiever in the shadow of an accomplished father. In aggressive military action, he saw the opportunity to emerge from his father’s shadow. The moment, Herskowitz said, came in the wake of the September 11 attacks. “Suddenly, he’s at 91 percent in the polls, and he’d barely crawled out of the bunker.”

http://www.guerrillanews.com/articles/article.php?id=761

[WinkyDink]

33. Forget "popular"; "war President" was/is enough to destroy our democracy.

[MrSlayer]

25. Technically it's not in vain.

They are dying for something, just not for their own or their countryman's benefit or in defense of the nation. They are dying so a small group of rich people can get even richer. There is a purpose to their dying, there just isn't any overall honor or glory in it.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

26. Well, technically, if they are serving for purposes of an explicit cause and die for something else,

I would say, technically, they are dying in vain.

Technically, our armed forces join to protect our nation, it's laws, it's people,...not a corporatocracy that violates both.

However, in spite of their deaths being in vain of their purpose, their lives are even more valuable, in a way, than those who did die for protection of our democratic institution because they were USED in malignant ways. That makes their lives even MORE WORTHY of our attention and advocacy and protection.

[HughMoran]

28. It's such an awful and disgusting thing to realize isn't it?

I am just so fed up with this disgusting failed war. At this point I see all further deaths as a result of our CIC's inability to admit when he is 100% WRONG. This means all the deaths are in vain.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

39. When I begin to think of all the innocent lives lost for,...personal powers/politics/greed,....my

,...heart HURTS, hugely. :cry:

They didn't die for something that made humanity better, that made their life or the lives of those they served,...better.

They died for greedy, power-mongering predators who cared nothing for the lives lost.

:cry:

It's horrifying,...to me.

[WinkyDink]

29. Of course, they are. There is no "noble cause", as Cindy Sheehan has asked Bush.

[Wiley50]

30. Our Junkies are dying in vein too.

But at least it's a victimless crime

[Cabcere]

31. My friend

went to war so that maybe someone's dad or husband wouldn't have to. It's only a small comfort to think that maybe because of his sacrifice, some young child still has a living father...because none of them should have had to die for this. No fathers, no husbands, no mothers, no wives, no friends, no classmates, no children. It makes me horribly sad and angry to think about this, and I know my friend wouldn't want me to feel that way...I know he did what he believed was right, and for that he has my unending respect. I just wish he was still alive so I could tell him in person. :cry: RIP, Danny. :patriot: :hug: :loveya:

[GOTV]

34. Absolutely. People don't like to say it and they whitewash over this truth...

... their lives and their sacrifices have been squandered and they and their loved one's pay the entire price. We're not even paying more in taxes for it.

Precious lives, pissed away, into the sewer, and we still don't really know why they did it.

But many still will not face that fact.

[Breeze54]

36. Wow...

I feel your/our/their families pain!!!

Glad you finally woke up!!

[GOTV]

37. Oh yeah, and recommended...

... so that we can start facing what Bush has done to those that trusted him and America the most.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

38. I never denied that they died in vain. Why must that be a reflection upon the soldiers? It's

a reflection on the warmongers that sent them to their deaths.

On edit...if more people realized this, perhaps they'd start to wake up and educate themselves to the Truth?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

45. Why make the distinction seem so easy,...when, in reality, it is hard?

That is not fair.

When was the last time you told someone you love, who serves in the armed forces, you may die in vain or your friend died in vain?

I understand what you are saying,...distinguishing between a soldier's service and the FUCKERS that dictate how or what he serves. BUT,...you and I both know how awefully difficult it is for that soldier to be in this situation.

I don't mean to be contrary. I just want to impose a human reality check, here, and say,...it's not easy, this situation, for any of us,...and respect should be offered rather than 'they should know' position.

Am I making sense to you?

[WTF cubed]

42. Yeah, it's tough hearing it said out loud...

I arrived at the same point.

It is sad.

[cynatnite]

44. I think Gravel is mistaken...

It's up to each of us to decide what we do with our lives and what we are willing to die for. Each person who is in the military goes knowing they could be called up to go to war. Each person has to live with the decision they make. If that person determines that what they do is worth the cost of their life, it's not in vain. It's what they believed in.

Whether the reason is fighting for democracy in Iraq, serving and protecting their buddies in Iraq, doing what their country asked of them or whatever it is they believe...many of them feel that what they do is not in vain. They need to believe that whether you agree with it or not.

I will not be the one to tell his or her family that their loved on died in vain based on my beliefs.

[Breeze54]

48. BS!

The National Guard did not expect to be fighting in Iraq or doing longer tours that any other branch!

Go back to warmonger freeperville with that ideology. :puke:

[cynatnite]

49. The fact of the matter is any soldier can get out of fighting if they want to...

Sure, they'd wind up with a general or less than honorable discharge, but they can get out of it. Not many are able to claim conscientious objector these days. Most all of them are denied.

Each soldier, whether it's guard, active duty or reserves understands that they could be called up for war. That's a fact. It's what they signed up for. Sure, many of them do it for college, extra money and a thousand other reasons, but EVERY one of them know they work for the government and the president could send them off to war.

In the end, it's up to each soldier to determine how they value their life. You don't like or don't agree with it? So what? It doesn't matter what I think or anyone else. What matters is what they believe and many think that serving in Iraq, no matter the reasons, is worth their life. Personally, I don't. But I'm not the one with the uniform. I haven't worn a uniform in a long time now. They are and the choice is theirs.

Slam me all you like, but keep this in mind. I'm a vet. My husband is a vet. He was sent to Panama and served in the first gulf war. My brother-in-law and my uncle were in the first gulf war. My nephew just started his third tour in Iraq. In my family, we make the determinations on what value we place on our lives. No one else.

[Usrename]

50. Joining the military is not a suicide pact.

To me, when you think of it like that, it cheapens their service.

[cynatnite]

52. That's the reality of it...

and everyone knows it. My husband's unit was sent to Panama, then he was called up for the first Iraq war. My Dad was drafted during Vietnam, his brother went there, my grandfather was in WWII along with uncles and more. They all saw war and it was always made very clear to us exactly what could happen should we join the military. It's a fact of life in the military.

[Breeze54]

51. My son was stop lossed to Iraq.

Neither did he nor most of his company sign up to go to Iraq.

You're wrong.

Not all went to war because they wanted to at all.

Your argument is not true.

There are many vets in my family as well, some joined the service (Revolutinary War, Civil War, WWII).

Some were drafted to Vietnam but they didn't go willingly.

Maybe you did. Doesn't make you right.

[cynatnite]

53. That's not what I was saying at all...

I'm saying that it's up to us, not other people to determine what value we place over our own lives. If someone believes in going to Iraq for whatever reason and they think their life is worth that...who am I to tell them differently? I can say all the right things as to the insanity of this war, but in the end, the one that's wearing the uniform makes the choice. A lot of times they make it when they sign on the dotted line and take their oath. They'll go wherever they're sent to and not question it even if it means their lives. Once in a while, they make it after the fact. There are a lot of soldiers who have gone to Canada to avoid going to Iraq.

In the end it's all in the choices we make for ourselves. Joining the military, most know that going to war is a possibility. If a person doesn't know it, they have no business joining. If someone is so against going to war in Iraq and willing to risk their freedom, they can refuse to deploy or head to Canada.

My nephew is on his third tour in Iraq. First time he went out of duty to country. Second time he went because of his buddies. This time he's going because he doesn't want to tarnish his record. He's out after this tour. Those are his reasons and he feels they are enough to risk his life for. Now, you and others may not feel those are good enough reasons, but what matters is that he thinks it is.

[Breeze54]

54. Sending soldiers into this lie of a war is a crime!

You seem to be blaming the soldiers that went and were ordered there.

Not everyone can just up and go to Canada or another country.

Stop blaming the soldiers and start putting the blame where it belongs!! :grr:

Your; "Oh well, tough titties"; attitude is really crappy.

We only should be sending soldiers into harms way when it is the last resort!

That's NOT what happened in Iraq! :grr: Iraq is a lie and was a "war" of choice.

Get that through your head.

[cynatnite]

56. You know this is an all volunteer army, don't you?

I really think you're completely misreading what I'm saying. This entire thread isn't just about the war. It's about whether or not those soldiers died in vain.

I was a part of that all-volunteer force and so was my husband. My nephew is a part of that same military, too, and he's on his third tour in Iraq. Now, we all knew that when we signed up and took our oath that we could go to war.

If someone signed up and didn't know that I hope that the battle fatigues and the M16 in his or her hand gives them an indication that they may have to fight and die.

The fact of the matter is if someone in the military is SO against this war that they can't in good conscience go with their unit to Iraq they have a few options. One is to refuse. That usually leads to jail time. Another is to head north to Canada. Many soldiers have. Another is to apply for conscientious objector status. It's very rare these days that anyone's given it.

My nephew, who I already mentioned, went on his first tour because he believed in it. He thought bush's cause was worth dying for. After that, he didn't. He went on his second tour for his buddies. They'd been through some shit, to hear him tell it, and he would die for them. This third one sort of makes sense, but then again it doesn't. He wants a good record with an honorable discharge. His enlistment is up next fall...a few months after he comes back. Knowing how he is, he prides himself on having a clean record with some very good citations. He's also a man who believes in fulfilling the commitment he made to the military. That oath can be echoing in someone's head for a long time. He knows this is what he's risking his life for.

Basically, what I'm saying here is that my nephew, on each tour, believed enough in what he was doing that he was willing to risk his life. You may not agree with it and I may not agree with it. But if my nephew dies I dare you or anyone else to go up to his wife and tell him that he died in vain. I dare you to come up to me and say that. No one has that right, IMO. My nephew made that determination for himself and no one has the right to say it's otherwise.

[mikelewis]

47. They are most certainly not dying in vain...

They are dying for our sins... for our weakness... murders paid for by our tax dollars... crucified by our failures... every month 100 American soldiers sacrifice their lives so thousands more can turn away from the frightfully ugly and despicable way America has decided to act. They are sacrificing their very souls in a belief that somewhere in this whole sordid mess a bit of redemption can be had... dying in the hope that a bit of self-respect may be gleaned from the ashes of our golden age. They believe America is good and honest and wholesome... they believe in apple pie and baseball and even that ignorant show American Idol(atry)... They refuse to believe we can be wrong so they fight to make us right... they fight because they are ashamed of being duped by a draft dodger and his idiot monkey with a bull horn... they fight because they have no other way to escape the nightmare...

They fight because the are afraid for their families and our families... and they fight because this is America... this is America and they fight because they love every rock and tree in this land of milk and honey... They fight because they swore an oath to uphold a promise that was made in vain... they are not dying in vain...

It's we who are dying in vain... we who are afraid to risk what little we have... letting others sacrifice themselves in the vain attempt to wake up this comatose giant... America's soul has been smothered by years of gluttony and debasement... we have stood by and allowed our families to disintegrate... our children to languish in a society frighteningly deadly... and we have allowed our fears to rule our lives... it is we who are in vain... they at least are laying their lives on the line in the ignorant hope and insanely naive belief that they can kill their way to a better world.

Our soldiers are America's children, our nieces, our nephews, our family... we have sent them to Iraq to kill strangers to make us feel safer... no one else is to blame. Our entire country is responsible for this disaster... we are complicit by continuing to fund this government and by failing to implement accountability measures through Impeachment proceedings. This is America's responsiblity... clearly Congress is incapable of removing this regime and yet America still sits and frets... cowering behind our love of our soldiers and our hopes for a better selection in '08. When we go to our graves, will we have allowed others to suffer for our comfort? Will we have paid for the deaths of those who merely frighten us? Will we have squandered our legacy for dross? If we allowed any of this to happen... will we not have died as we have lived... in vain?


Maybe that's too harsh a reply... after all... what can we do about it anyway... we are only America after all.


"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor." Our fore-fathers would spit in our faces for the shame we've brought on their legacy...

[Festivito]

55. But, there is part, a great part, that dies for US.

The purpose of this battle may be vain, but the purpose these soldiers express, with their lives, is beyond the vanity realized by any military-industrial-congressional-CON, it is love they express - of country, of constitution, of US, our people, and that part no matter how large or small will never be vain.