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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:29 PM
Original message
Ask the Germans
Edited on Mon Jul-23-07 10:22 PM by JFN1
I was just wondering what the German people called their fellow citizens who saw the rise of the Nazi party, saw the end of their Democracy looming, and cried warnings to a public simply deaf to them.

I'm sure they were referred to as "out there."

Probably got called "wax paper hat wearers" (I don't know if they had tinfoil then).

They were surely called "crazy," "conspiracy nuts," and part of the "black helicopter crowd." Wait - scratch that last one - I'm pretty sure there were no helicopters yet, or at least they weren't prevalent enough for such a reference.

Yes, I'm sure there were more than a few German citizens who saw the evil coming, cried warning, and were disregarded.

So many of us today ask, from our fine, high historical perch, "What the fuck was wrong with the German people? How can it be they didn't see it coming?" and, "How could they fail to see the obvious?"

Yup. Those crraazzzy Germans just missed it, didn't they?

Now we come to America. We see the rise of an unremarkable man, who had failed in virtually everything he had ever tried. We see a vibrant people living their vibrant lives in their vibrant country. So strong, so confident. "It could never happen here."

Secret prisons.
Extraordinary rendition.
Stolen elections. (and read Brad Blog today for a report on that!)
Torture.
The "Patriot" Act.
Signing statements.
No-bid contracts.
Secret/mercenary armies.
War of aggression.
Politicization of the Justice Department.
Illegal domestic spying.
The assertion of "executive privilege" to thwart the legislature.
The elimination of haebeus corpus.

How many of these actions did the German people witness, and fail to "connect the dots?"

No, it can't happen here.

Just ask the Germans.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. New people scare me. Let's just try to impeach him. nt
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. LOL! Welcome to DU, JFN1.
I absolutely agree with you, BTW. It's been tossed around a lot here recently, but some still don't get it:

"Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them."

Too many people with their heads in the sand in this country.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. A Friend Of My Family Was A Jew In Germany In The 30s
Her dad ran a butcher shop famous for its pork sausages - Jews were as integrated into German society then as they are integrated into America now. 50% of Jews married non-Jews.

Her family up and left Germany in '35 I believe, because they saw the writing on the wall. Friends and family said they were overreacting, that they were nuts.

Almost all of the family perished in the Camps.

It can absolutely happen here.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. It already happened here










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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I fear
this is just the tip of the iceberg...
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I believe it is.
To understand this, on a visceral level, one must live through what we experienced here in New Orleans and/or had family exterminated by the Nazis, for example.

I've been shouting from the rooftops, but too many people are caught up in the 'cult of personality', either attributing power to individuals or attacking those who do.

It's all the same to me.

Folks here are divided again and again... but that is part of the Master Plan. ;)


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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. It's Very, Very Bad - But Not On The Same Magnitude As Nazi Germany
Imagine trains of cattle cars filled with families pulling into death camps all day long. Within hours, they are gassed and burned. Hundreds a day, in just one camp. One camp did 500,000 in nine months.

Or if you were lucky(!?), you went to a concentration camp instead, where you were worked to death. It was considered an economic problem to maximize the work from a prisoner and minimize cost until they died. Babies were used as fetch toys for dogs. Human skin was used to make commemorative lamp shades.

And all this from a country that, until the early 1930s, was the most liberal in Europe - probably more liberal than the US. It happened fast.
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. They thought they were free
"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing.

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter."

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html


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Spangle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Ah, but it wasn't like that on day 1.
Now was it? And that is the point of this thread. The way things are going, it really could end up exactly what you pictured.

In the begining, what did people say, what did they do.... what are the signs?

We said "never again", but then when we talk about that time in history, it's always how bad it was in the end. We don't teach the begining enough. We don't teach the causes, the signs, etc. We go straight to the horror.

People may not want to 'do it again', but they are clueless to the signs. They are clueless to everything about it. They will not wake up until they see the part of 'never again' they they know from their history books. At that point, it would be to late to prevent it.

History not truelly learned, is doomed to be repeated.
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. You are right
And to demonstrate, simply replace "Hitler" with "Bush" in the paragraphs below and see if it rings any bells:

"In his speech to the editors in chief of the German press Hitler described what he considered to be the proper method of propaganda for creating war readiness: 'Certain events should be presented in such a light that unconsciously the masses will automatically come to the conclusion: If there's no way to redress this matter pleasantly, then it will have to be done by force: we can't possibly let things go on this way."

...

"His illusions and wish-dreams were a direct outgrowth of his unrealistic mode of working and thinking. Hitler actually knew nothing about his enemies and even refused to use the information that was available to him. Instead, he trusted his inspirations, no matter how inherently contradictory they might be, and these inspirations were governed by extreme contempt for and underestimation of the others."

...

"I can only explain Hitler's rigid attitude on the grounds that he made himself believe in his ultimate victory. In a sense he was worshiping himself. He was forever holding up to himself a mirror in which he saw not only himself but also the confirmation of his mission by divine Providence.... He was by nature a religious man, but his capacity for belief had been perverted into belief in himself."

...

Quotes taken from Albert Speer's Inside the Third Reich
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
33. A lot of it was right from the beginning
Within a month of Hitler's chancellorship, the Enabling Act was passed making Hitler a legal dictator, all political parties but the Nazis were banned, and within three months of Hitler taking power Dachau Concentration Camp was opened.

It really isn't close to the same. If we were in Hitler's German, we sure wouldn't be posting stuff like this in public. We'd have disappeared the first time we spoke out.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Give Bushler more time....
and don't forget to count the dead in Iraq.

I can imagine trains of cattle cars filled with families pulling into death camps all day long, as all of my family (except for my grandparents) was exterminated by the Nazis in Bobruisk.

And as a Katrina survivor I want to warn you of what is to come to a town near you.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Thank God, There Is One Big Difference Between Bush and Hitler
Hitler was competent - his military adventures were successful for years, which drew more people to his way of thinking.

Bush is the opposite of competent.

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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. So were Bush's
The first few years of the war Bush was hailed as some kind of "genius" for his approach to terrorism, and his response to 9/11. It is only now, in the last two years, that things have begun to unravel for Bush. But I agree with you in this regard - it was easier for Hitler, since his rise to power was a much longer process than it has been for Bush - and Bush is totally incompetent, though I'm not sure it even matters, or ever did, in this context. Victory has never been the point for Bush, methinks - he just wanted the war.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
29. How far down that road must we travel?
Edited on Mon Jul-23-07 11:14 PM by Chulanowa
I've seen your argument before. "This is nothing like Nazi Germany - we're not killing Jews!"

No, we're killing Muslims. They're "Terrorists" pr maybe if we're purging them from the middle east they're "enemy combatants". These men, women, and even children are imprisoned, beaten, and tortured as a matter of course, and Americans don't raise a peep. "Who gives a shit about some terrorist sand nigger motherfuckers? We should just nuke the middle east and get it done with!" they say.

Camps exist in several states were illegal immigrants are put and held. They are not deported, they are retained in these prisons. Families are separated, and given our treatment of American prisoners, and the fact we murder non-American prisoners, I can't imagine these people are treated too fine. People don't say anything, except perhaps "Well those wetback spic sons-of-bitches took my job, serves them right. Let's put landmines and snipers on the border!"

Who's next for America's prison camps do you think, MannyGoldstein? We've already got most of the Natives rounded up, so that's handled. How about blacks? Democrats? Gays? Scientists? Does it matter who's next, since the first two obviously don't count?

The rallying cry against genocide is "Never Forget!" and yet, the very Holocaust meant to serve as an example of why we should always stay vigilant about genocide and ethnic cleansing, clouds this, giving the odd perception that we have to wait until it gets to that point before we say anything. Germans were not being incinerated in 1935, but the course had already been set. A fascist authoritarian regime had come to power and was laying tracks for those cattle cars. it was building excuses for the roundups. It was already writing excuses for the murders.

No, we are not "That bad". Yet. But so long as people sit and dither and say "we shouldn't compare these people to the Nazis because it's not THAT bad yet," we are drawing closer to it being exactly that bad in the future, one republican goose step at a time. How sad that so many seem so eager to repeat the full process before pulling their heads from whatever dark and moist holes htey are lodged in. By then, it's rather late.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. I completely agree with you...In another thread, I mentioned my grandparents who escaped Germany in
1939, only a few months after Kristallnacht...I mentioned how my grandparents had been watching the developments and knew it was time to go and to go fast. I mentioned how they told me how it all happened and that they saw it early on and that it could happen even here if people aren't paying attention. The same argument was used on me about how comparing things now to anything in Nazi Germany was not fair to the memory of the jews who had died.

I say not so and I know my grandparents would definitely disagree with that implication...If anything they would say it is precisely in the memory of the millions of jews and others that died at the hands of the Nazis to discuss this and to show the comparisons. Their comments to me were always about how in 6 years, the Nazis managed to destroy everything democratic within Germany and literally from under the noses of people without them seeming to notice. They tried to point things out to people, some listened, most didn't. Those that listened, got out. Those that didn't, couldn't.

It is my opinion that those of us paying attention must point out the parallels and hope that enough people are paying attention to the lessons of the past. It is also my opinion that had Hitler and the Nazis had the kind of technology for surveillance, databases, communications and weaponry that exist now, then they would have been not only harder or impossible to defeat, but would have been far more horrific. So, here we find ourselves in 2007 with an administration that does indeed have those technologies in their control, and these same people have proven to have a complete disregard for the rule of law and have been at a very alarming rate doing things that show that they do not care about what the majority of people think or feel.

So, you see, I think the comparison and analogies and the warnings are completely appropriate because it could happen again and it could happen in a far worse way.

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PADemD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. How does she feel about what is happening in America?
Is she speaking out?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. welcome to DU
this IS history repeating itself

with many of the players direct biological and/or ideological descendants of the originals
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Thanks!
And for what it is worth, I totally agree with you. History repeats itself, dammit, sometimes with alarming accuracy.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
9. Welcome To DU !!! - K & R !!!
:kick:

:hi:
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
17. Barman Declaration
The Barmen Declaration or The Theological Declaration of Barmen 1934 is a statement of the Confessing Church opposing the Nazi-supported "German-Christian" movement. The "German Christians" who were hostile to the Confessing Church combined extreme nationalism with anti-Semitism. The Barmen Declaration specifically rejects the subordination of the church to the state. Rather, the Declaration states that the church "is solely Christ's property, and that it lives and wants to live solely from his comfort and from his direction in the expectation of his appearance."

Karl Barth, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Martin Niemöller, and countless others were conspiracy nuts?
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Not in my book
Any more than those among us who are trying to warn us today, who are so often called "conspiracy nuts."
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Pure coincidence, between our posts, I checked my email mail and found my BIL had sent me this:

Why Germans Supported Hitler



By Jacob G. Hornberger

07/23/07 "FFF" --- - -It has long intrigued me why the German people supported Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime. After all, every schoolchild in America is taught that Hitler and his Nazi cohorts were the very epitome of evil. How could ordinary German citizens support people who were so obviously monstrous in nature?

Standing against the Nazi tide was a remarkable group of young people known as the White Rose. Led by Hans and Sophie Scholl, a German brother and sister who were students at the University of Munich, the White Rose consisted of college students and a college professor who risked their lives to circulate anti-government pamphlets in the midst of World War II. Their arrest and trial was depicted in the German movie Sophie Scholl: The Final Days, which was recently released on DVD in the United States.

Of all the essays on liberty I have written in the past 20 years, my favorite is “The White Rose: A Lesson in Dissent”, which I am pleased to say was later reprinted in Voices of the Holocaust, an anthology on the Holocaust for high-school students. The story of the White Rose is the most remarkable case of courage I have ever come across. It even inspired me to visit the University of Munich a few years ago, where portions of the White Rose pamphlets have been permanently enshrined on bricks laid into a plaza at the entrance to the school.

A contrast to the Scholl movie is another recent German movie, Downfall, which details Hitler’s final days in the bunker, where he committed suicide near the end of the war. Among the people around Hitler was 22-year-old Traudl Junge, who became his secretary in 1942 and who faithfully served him in that capacity until the end. For me, the most stunning part of the film occurred at the end, when the real Traudl Junge (that is, not the actress who portrays her in the film) says,

All these horrors I’ve heard of ... I assured myself with the thought of not being personally guilty. And that I didn’t know anything about the enormous scale of it. But one day I walked by a memorial plate of Sophie Scholl in the Franz-Joseph-Strasse.... And at that moment I actually realized ... that it might have been possible to get to know things.

So here were two separate roads taken by German citizens. Most Germans took the road that Traudl Junge took — supporting their government in time of deep crisis. A few Germans took the road that Hans and Sophie Scholl took — opposing their government despite the deep crisis facing their nation.

Why the difference? Why did some Germans support the Hitler regime while others opposed it?

Each American should first ask himself what he would have done if he had been a German citizen during the Hitler regime. Would you have supported your government or would you have opposed it, not only during the 1930s but also after the outbreak of World War II?

After all, it’s one thing to look at Nazi Germany retrospectively and from the vantage point of an outside citizen who has heard since childhood about the death camps and of Hitler’s monstrous nature. We look at those grainy films of Hitler delivering his bombastic speeches and our automatic reaction is that we would have never supported the man and his political party. But it’s quite another thing to place one’s self in the shoes of an ordinary German citizen and ask, “What would I have done?”

What we often forget is that many Germans did not support Hitler and the Nazis at the start of the 1930s. Keep in mind that in the 1932 presidential election, Hitler received only 30.1 percent of the national vote. In the subsequent run-off election, he received only 36.8 percent of the vote. It wasn’t until President Hindenburg appointed him as chancellor in 1933 that Hitler began consolidating power.

Among the major factors that motivated Germans to support Hitler during the 1930s was the tremendous economic crisis known as the Great Depression, which had struck Germany as hard as it had the United States and other parts of the world. What did many Germans do in response to the Great Depression? They did the same thing that many Americans did — they looked for a strong leader to get them out of the economic crisis.

Hitler and Franklin Roosevelt


In fact, there is a remarkable similarity between the economic policies that Hitler implemented and those that Franklin Roosevelt enacted. Keep in mind, first of all, that the German National Socialists were strong believers in Social Security, which Roosevelt introduced to the United States as part of his New Deal. Keep in mind also that the Nazis were strong believers in such other socialist schemes as public (i.e., government) schooling and national health care. In fact, my hunch is that very few Americans realize that Social Security, public schooling, Medicare, and Medicaid have their ideological roots in German socialism.

Hitler and Roosevelt also shared a common commitment to such programs as government-business partnerships. In fact, until the Supreme Court declared it unconstitutional, Roosevelt’s National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA), which cartelized American industry, along with his “Blue Eagle” propaganda campaign, was the type of economic fascism that Hitler himself was embracing in Germany (as fascist ruler Benito Mussolini was also doing in Italy).

As John Toland points out in his book Adolf Hitler, “Hitler had genuine admiration for the decisive manner in which the President had taken over the reins of government. ‘I have sympathy for Mr. Roosevelt,’ he told a correspondent of the New York Times two months later, ‘because he marches straight toward his objectives over Congress, lobbies and bureaucracy.’ Hitler went on to note that he was the sole leader in Europe who expressed ‘understanding of the methods and motives of President Roosevelt.’”

As Srdja Trifkovic, foreign-affairs editor for Chronicles magazine, stated in his article “FDR and Mussolini: A Tale of Two Fascists”, Roosevelt and his ‘Brain Trust,’ the architects of the New Deal, were fascinated by Italy’s fascism — a term which was not pejorative at the time. In America, it was seen as a form of economic nationalism built around consensus planning by the established elites in government, business, and labor.

Both Hitler and Roosevelt also believed in massive injections of government spending in both the social-welfare sector and the military-industrial sector as a way to bring economic prosperity to their respective nations. As the famed economist John Kenneth Galbraith put it,

Hitler also anticipated modern economic policy ... by recognizing that a rapid approach to full employment was only possible if it was combined with wage and price controls. That a nation oppressed by economic fear would respond to Hitler as Americans did to F.D.R. is not surprising.

One of Hitler’s proudest accomplishments was the construction of the national autobahn system, a massive socialist public-works project that ultimately became the model for the interstate highway system in the United States.

By the latter part of the 1930s, many Germans had the same perception about Hitler that many Americans had about Roosevelt. They honestly believed that Hitler was bringing Germany out of the Depression. For the first time since the Treaty of Versailles, the treaty that had ended World War I with humiliating terms for Germany, the German people were regaining a sense of pride in themselves and in their nation, and they were giving the credit to Hitler’s strong leadership in time of deep national crisis.

Toland points out in his Hitler biography that Germans weren’t the only ones who admired Hitler during the 1930s:

Churchill had once paid a grudging compliment to the Führer in a letter to the Times: “I have always said that I hoped if Great Britain were beaten in a war we should find a Hitler who would lead us back to our rightful place among nations.”

Hitler was a strong believer in national service, especially for German young people. That was what the Hitler Youth was all about — inculcating in young people the notion that they owed a duty to devote at least part of their lives to society. It was an idea also resonating in the collectivist atmosphere that was permeating the United States during the 1930s.

Hitler and anti-Semitism


While U.S. officials today never cease to remind us that Hitler was evil incarnate, the question is: Was he so easily recognized as such during the 1930s, not only by German citizens but also by other people around the world, especially those who believed in the idea of a strong political leader in times of crisis? Keep in mind that while Hitler and his cohorts were harassing, abusing, and periodically arresting German Jews as the 1930s progressed, culminating in Kristallnacht, the “night of the broken glass,” when tens of thousands of Jews were beaten and taken to concentration camps, it was not exactly the type of thing that aroused major moral outrage among U.S. officials, many of whom themselves had a strong sense of anti-Semitism.

For example, when Hitler offered to let German Jews leave Germany, the U.S. government used immigration controls to keep them from immigrating here. In fact, as Arthur D. Morse pointed out in his book While Six Million Died: A Chronicle of American Apathy, five days after Kristallnacht, which occurred in November 1938, at a White House press conference, a reporter asked Roosevelt, “Would you recommend a relaxation of our immigration restrictions so that the Jewish refugees could be received in this country?” The president replied, “This is not in contemplation. We have the quota system.”

Let’s also not forget the infamous 1939 (i.e., after Kristallnacht) “voyage of the damned,” in which U.S. officials refused to permit German Jews to disembark at Miami Harbor from the German ship the SS St. Louis, knowing that they would be returned to Hitler’s clutches in Nazi Germany.

(The Holocaust Museum in Washington, to its credit, has an excellent exhibition on U.S. government indifference to the plight of the Jews under Hitler’s control, a dark period in American history to which all too many Americans are never exposed in their public-school training. See also my June 1991 Freedom Daily article “Locking Out the Immigrant” .)

Check out this interesting website, which details a very nice pictorial description of Hitler’s summer home in Bavaria published by a prominent English magazine named Home and Gardens in November 1938 Now, ask yourself: If it was so obvious that Hitler was evil incarnate during the 1930s, would a prominent English magazine have been risking its readership by publishing such a profile? And let’s also not forget that it was Hitler’s Germany that hosted the worldwide Olympics in 1936, games in which the United States, Great Britain, and many other countries participated. Ask yourself: Why would they have done that?

The Great Depression was not the only factor that was leading people to support Hitler. There was also the ever-present fear of communism among the German people. In fact, throughout the 1930s it could be said that Germany was facing the same type of Cold War against the Soviet Union that the United States faced from 1945 to 1989. Ever since the chaos of World War I had given rise to the Russian Revolution, Germany faced the distinct possibility of being taken over by the communists (a threat that materialized into reality for East Germans at the end of World War II). It was a threat that Hitler, like later American presidents, used as a justification for ever-increasing spending on the military-industrial complex. The ever-present danger of Soviet communism led many Germans to gravitate to the support of their government, just as it later moved many Americans to support big government and a strong military-industrial complex in their country throughout the Cold War.

Hitler’s war on terrorism


One of the most searing events in German history occurred soon after Hitler took office. On February 27, 1933, in what easily could be termed the 9/11 terrorist attack of that time, German terrorists fire-bombed the German parliament building. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that Adolf Hitler, one of the strongest political leaders in history, would declare war on terrorism and ask the German parliament (the Reichstag) to give him temporary emergency powers to fight the terrorists. Passionately claiming that such powers were necessary to protect the freedom and well-being of the German people, Hitler persuaded the German legislators to give him the emergency powers he needed to confront the terrorist crisis. What became known as the Enabling Act allowed Hitler to suspend civil liberties “temporarily,” that is, until the crisis had passed. Not surprisingly, however, the threat of terrorism never subsided and Hitler’s “temporary” emergency powers, which were periodically renewed by the Reichstag, were still in effect when he took his own life some 12 years later.

Is it so surprising that ordinary German citizens were willing to support their government’s suspension of civil liberties in response to the threat of terrorism, especially after the terrorist strike on the Reichstag?

During the 1930s, the United States faced the Great Depression, and many Americans were willing to accede to Roosevelt’s assumption of massive emergency powers, including the power to control economic activity and also to nationalize and confiscate people’s gold.

During the Cold War, the fear of communism induced Americans to permit their government to collect massive amounts of income taxes to fund the military-industrial complex and to let U.S. officials send more than 100,000 American soldiers to their deaths in undeclared wars in Korea and Vietnam.

Since the 9/11 attacks, Americans have been more than willing for their government to infringe on vital civil liberties, including habeas corpus, involve the nation in an undeclared and unprovoked war on Iraq, and spend ever-growing amounts of money on the military-industrial complex, all in the name of the “war on terrorism.”

Crises versus liberty


While the American people faced these three crises — the Great Depression, the communist threat, and the war on terrorism at three separate times, the German people during the Hitler regime faced the same three crises all within a short span of time. Given that, why would it surprise anyone that many Germans would gravitate toward the support of their government just as many Americans gravitated toward the support of their government during each of those crises?

Even Sophie Scholl and her brother Hans eagerly joined the Hitler Youth when they were in high school. In the ever-growing crisis environment of the 1930s, millions of other ordinary Germans also came to support their government, enthusiastically cheering their leaders, supporting their policies, and sending their children into national service and looking the other way when the government became abusive. Among the few who resisted were Robert and Magdalena Scholl, the parents of Hans and Sophie, who gradually opened the minds of their children to the truth.

The three major crises faced by Germany in the 1930s — economic depression, communism, and terrorism — pale to relative insignificance compared with the crisis that Germany faced during the 1940s — World War II, the crisis that threatened, at least in the minds of Hitler and his cohorts, the very existence of Germany. That Hans and Sophie Scholl and other German students began circulating leaflets calling on Germans to oppose their government in the midst of a major war, when German soldiers were dying on two fronts, makes the story of the White Rose even more remarkable and perhaps even a bit discomforting for some Americans.

The most remarkable part of the movie Sophie Scholl: The Final Days is the courtroom scene, which is based on recently discovered German archives. Sophie and her brother Hans, along with their friend Christoph Probst, stand before the infamous Roland Freisler, presiding judge of the People’s Court, whom Hitler had immediately sent to Munich after the Gestapo’s arrest of the Scholls and Probst.

The People’s Court had been established by Hitler as part of the government’s war on terrorism after the terrorist firebombing of the German parliament building. Displeased with the independence of the judiciary in the trials of the suspected Reichstag terrorists, Hitler had set up the People’s Court to ensure that terrorists and traitors would receive the “proper” verdict and punishment. Judicial proceedings were conducted in secret for reasons of national security, which is why Freisler threw Hans’s and Sophie’s parents out of the courtroom when they tried to enter.

At the trial, Freisler railed at the three young people before him, accusing them of being ungrateful traitors for having opposed their government in the midst of the war. His rant went to the core of why many Germans supported Hitler during World War II.

From the first grade in public (i.e., government) schools, it was ingrained in German children that, during times of war, it was the duty of every German to come to the support of his country, which, in the minds of the German officials, was synonymous with the German government. Once a war was under way, the time for discussion and debate was over, at least until the war was over. Opposition to the war would demoralize the troops, it was said, and, therefore, hurt the war effort. Opposing the government (and the troops) in wartime, therefore, was considered treasonous.

Keep in mind that at the time the Scholls were caught distributing their anti-war and anti-government leaflets — 1943 — Germany was fighting a war for its survival on two fronts: the Eastern front against the Soviet Union and the Western front against Britain and the United States. Thousands of German soldiers were dying on the battlefield, especially in the Soviet Union. Whether they agreed with the war effort or not, the German people were expected to support the troops, which meant supporting the war effort.

Lies and wars of aggression


One might object that, since Germany was the aggressor in the conflict, the German people should have refused to support the war. That objection, however, ignores an important point: that in the minds of many Germans, Germany was not the aggressor in World War II but rather the defending nation. After all, that’s what they had been told by their government officials.

An aggressor nation will inevitably try to manipulate events so as to appear to be the victimized nation — that is, the nation that is defending itself against aggression. In that way, government officials can tell the citizenry, “We are innocent! We were just minding our own business when our nation was attacked.” Naturally, the citizenry can then assume that there was nothing that could have been done to prevent the war and will be more willing to defend their nation against the attackers.

That is exactly what happened in Germany’s invasion of Poland, which precipitated World War II. After several weeks in which tensions between the two nations were heightened, German soldiers on the Polish-German border were attacked by Polish troops. Hitler followed the time-honored script by dramatically announcing that Germany had been attacked by Poland, requiring Germany to defend herself with a counterattack and an invasion of Poland.

There was one big problem, however — one that the German people were unaware of: the Polish troops who had done the attacking were actually German troops dressed up in Polish uniforms. In other words, German officials had lied about the cause of the war.

Now, some might argue that Germans should not have automatically believed Hitler, especially knowing that throughout history rulers had lied about matters relating to war. But Germans took the position that they had the right and the duty to place their trust in their government officials. After all, Germans felt, their government officials had access to information that the people did not have. Many Germans felt that their government would never lie to them about a matter as important as war.

Also, keep in mind that under the Nazi system Hitler had the sole prerogative of deciding whether to send the nation into war. While he might consult with the Reichstag or advise it of his plans, he did not need its consent to declare and wage war against another nation. He — and he alone — had the power to decide whether to go to war. Therefore, given that Hitler was not required to secure a declaration of war from the Reichstag before going to war against Poland, there was no real way to test whether his claims of a Polish attack were in fact true.

After the German “counterattack” against Poland, England and France declared war on Germany. (Oddly, neither country declared war on the Soviet Union, which also invaded Poland soon after Germany did.) Thus, in the minds of the German people, England and France were coming to the aid of the aggressor — Poland — necessitating Germany’s defending itself against all three nations.

Loyalty and obeying orders


German soldiers, of course, were also expected to do their duty and follow the orders of their commander in chief. Under Germany’s system, it was not up to the individual soldier to reach his own independent judgment about whether Germany was the aggressor in the conflict or whether Hitler had lied about the reasons for going to war. Thus, German soldiers, both Protestant and Catholic, understood that they could kill Polish soldiers with a clear conscience because, again, it was not up to the individual soldier to decide on the justice of the war. He could entrust that decision to his superior officers and political leaders and simply assume that the order to invade was morally and legally justified.

Once troops were committed to battle, most German civilians understood their duty — support the troops who were now fighting and dying on the battlefield for their country, for the fatherland. The time for debating and discussing the causes of the war would have to wait until the war’s end. What mattered, once the war was under way, was winning.

Hermann Goering, founder of the Gestapo, explained the strategy:

    Why, of course, the people don’t want war.... Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship....

    Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.



Recognizing and opposing evil


Some might argue that Germans, unlike people in other nations, should not have trusted and supported their government officials during the war because it was obvious that Hitler and his henchmen were evil. The problem with that argument, however, is that throughout the 1930s many Germans and many foreigners did not automatically come to the conclusion that Hitler was evil. On the contrary, as we saw in part one of this article, many of them saw Hitler as exercising the same kind of strong leadership that Franklin Roosevelt was exercising to bring the United States out of the Great Depression and, in fact, as implementing many of the same kinds of programs that Roosevelt was implementing in the United States. (For more on this point, see the excellent book published last year Three New Deals: Reflections on Roosevelt’s America, Mussolini’s Italy, and Hitler’s Germany, 1933–1939, by Wolfgang Schivelbusch.)

Moreover, while it’s true that throughout the 1930s Hitler was harassing, abusing, and mistreating German Jews, many people all over the world didn’t care, because anti-Semitism was not limited to Germany but instead extended to many parts of the globe.

Don’t forget, for example, about how the Roosevelt administration used immigration controls to prevent German Jews from immigrating to the United States.

Even as late as 1938 U.S. officials refused to let German Jews disembark at Miami Harbor from the SS St. Louis, knowing that they would have to be returned to Hitler’s Germany.

Even after the outbreak of the war, when the severity of the Nazi threat to Jews skyrocketed, the constantly shifting maze of U.S. immigration rules and regulations prevented Anne Frank and her family, along with lots of other Jewish families, from immigrating to the United States.

Some might say that the German people should have ceased supporting their government once the Holocaust began. There are two big problems with that argument, however. First, the German people didn’t know what was going on in the death camps and, second, they didn’t want to know. After all, the death camps and the Holocaust didn’t get established until after the war was well under way and when Hitler’s power over the German people was absolute — and brutal.

How was the average German supposed to know about what was going on inside the death camps? Suppose a German walked up to a concentration camp, knocked on the gates, and said, “I have heard that you are doing bad things to people inside this camp. I would like to come in and inspect the premises.” What do you think would have been the answer? Most likely, he would have been invited inside the compound, as a permanent guest with a very shortened life span.

After all, what government is going to permit its citizens to know its most secret operations, especially during times of war? Not even the U.S. government does that.

For example, what do you think would happen if an American citizen today discovered the location of one of the CIA’s secret overseas detention facilities and then knocked on the front door, saying, “I’ve heard rumors that you are torturing people here. I would like to come in and inspect the premises to see whether those rumors are true.”

Does anyone honestly think that the CIA would let the person inside those supersecret facilities? Now, imagine a situation in which the United States is fighting a major war for its survival against, say, China on one side, and an alliance of Middle East countries on the other. Suppose also that the United States is almost certain to lose the war and that foreign troops are slowly but surely closing in on the U.S. president and his cabinet. What are the chances that the CIA would permit an American citizen to inspect the insides of its prisoner facilities under those circumstances? Indeed, what are the chances that any American is going to make such a demand under those circumstances?

Most Germans did not want to know what was going on inside the concentration camps. If they knew that bad things were occurring, their consciences might start bothering them, which might motivate them to take action to bring the wrongdoing to a stop, which could be dangerous. It was easier — and safer — to look the other way and simply entrust such important matters to their government officials. In that way, it was believed, the government, rather than the individual citizen, would bear the legal and moral consequences for wrongful acts that the government was committing secretly.

Of course, government officials encouraged that mindset of conscious indifference. Don’t concern yourselves with such things, they suggested; just leave them to us — after all, we are at war and these are things that are best left to your government officials.

No doubt that by the time World War II was well under way some Germans were thinking that the time for protesting had been during the 1930s, when Germans were reaching out for a “strong leader” to get them out of “crises” and “emergencies,” and when protests against the government were much less dangerous.

Patriotism and courage


All this, obviously, places Hans and Sophie Scholl and the other members of the White Rose in a remarkable light, one that even many Americans might find discomforting. After all, it’s easy for an American to look at Nazi Germany from the perspective of an outsider and one who has the benefit of historical knowledge, especially about the Holocaust. The interesting question, however, is, What would Americans have done if they had been German citizens during World War II? Would they have opposed their government, as the members of the White Rose did, or would they have supported their government, especially knowing that the troops were fighting and dying on the battlefield?

In one of their leaflets, the members of the White Rose wrote, “We are your bad conscience.” They were asking Germans to rise above the old, degenerate concept of patriotism that entailed blindly supporting one’s government in time of war. They were asking German soldiers to rise above the old, degenerate concept of blind obedience to orders. They were asking Germans to confront openly the rumors of what German officials were doing to the Jews in the concentration camps. They were asking German citizens, both civilian and military, to make an independent judgment on both the Hitler regime and the war, to judge both the government and the war as immoral and illegitimate, and to take the necessary steps to put a stop to both.

They were asking Germans to embrace a different and higher concept of patriotism — one that involves a devotion to a set of moral principles and values rather than blind allegiance to one’s government in time of war. It was a type of patriotism that involved opposition to one’s own government, especially in time of war, when government is engaged in conduct that violates moral principles and values.

The story of the White Rose is one of the most remarkable stories of courage in history. At the trial, Christoph Probst asked Freisler to spare his life, an understandable request given that his wife had recently given birth to their third child. Neither Sophie nor her brother Hans flinched. Sophie bluntly told Friesler that the war was lost and that German soldiers were being sacrificed for nothing, a statement that, from the looks on the faces of the military brass attending the trial in the film, momentarily hit home. She said that one day Freisler and his ilk would be sitting in the dock being judged by others for their crimes. She bluntly told him, “Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don’t dare express themselves as we did.”

Freisler quickly issued the preordained verdict — Guilty — and sentenced the defendants to death, a sentence that was carried out at the guillotine three days after they had been arrested. After all, as Freisler declared, Hans and Sophie Scholl and their friend Christoph Probst had opposed their government during time of war. In Freisler’s mind — indeed, in the minds of many Germans — what better evidence of treason than that?
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. It won't happen again
I'm partly Roma, a gypsy. It won't happen again because we won't let it happen to us again.

We have a saying about leaders with cult-like followings: One madman makes many madmen and many madmen make madness. Get this maniac gone soonest.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. If You Won't Let It Happen Again, How Are You Going to Stop It?
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Write, call, fax, email
Stand and fight if necessary.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
20. Well said, JFN1 !
Welcome to DU!

:kick: & Recommended! ;)
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
21. Back then, there was a loud-mouthed Sean Hannity type on every block who called them "traitors"
and pretty soon everyone just called them "deceased"

So the other folks on the block got the message pretty quick

that if they didn't want to be "deceased" too,

They'd better, at least, start acting like they agreed with the program


Sucks, but that's how it happens

If only everyone had stood together against their Hannity- type

it never would have happened

But, everyone was just trying to get by and get along
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I don't see much of a difference now
How many of us were shouted down and marginalized in the march to war? How many of us were called traitors, when we spoke out? How many had the courage to speak out after 9/11, when the country was gripped by patriotism?

So many of us walked straight into the trap, eyes forward, grins wide, voices silent.

And how many of us are just trying to get by now? Rising energy, food, housing, medical, education, etc. costs - working two jobs, sometimes three or four, never able to do more than get by until the next paycheck dribbles in...
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Most of us, and that really sucks
We've already lost our freedom, most of us
lost it long ago.

To our debts, our jobs, our media


And how are most of us to break out
when we're not even told the truth on the news?
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Exactly.
I think the Nazis would be proud of our President.
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Screwfly Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
27. Tinfoil conspiracies
are pretty much what propelled Hitler to power in Germany. Conspiracy theories of the time said the Jews, the communists, or a combination of both were secretly trying to taking over Germany.

Conspiracy theories of OUR time blame America's ills on the neo-cons, multi-national corporations, wealthy elitists, the U.N, etc. I would say the rich, technocrats, corporate drones, and yuppies are the ones who should be fearing the future.
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I wish
I had your confidence...
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. You forgot muslims and mexicans
I can see a bleak future if we are not careful. Mexico's oilfields are running dry and fund 40 percent of their govt. When it goes there will be a mass migration of people across the border. They are already being demonized. Things will get pretty bad here as the oil dries up and people will be looking for a scapegoat.
This is the vision of next decade that scares me the most.
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KillCapitalism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
35. Well, it makes sense I guess.
The same groups of people who saw the first signs of trouble in Nazi Germany are similar to the same groups that have seen signs of trouble in our own country over the past 6 years. Many of these groups gravitate to DU, such as trade unionists, intellectuals, Marxists, members of the gay community, ethnic minorities, etc. These groups were the first to be persecuted in Nazi Germany, and nowadays these groups while not brutally persecuted per se are openly criticised by the right as Anti-American.

That's what gets me about conservatives who say the Nazis were liberals just because their original party name was the National Socialist Worker's party of Germany.
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Golden Raisin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
36. I agree . Unless something changes fast
History will condemn us just as we condemn and wonder about those Germans who saw what was happening, saw what was coming, and did nothing. Even if impeachment fails miserably. Even if there is no conviction. At least future generations can look back and say, "They tried to stop it."
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wiggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
37. Read current article "Ordinary Germans Like Us" over at
www.firedoglake.com

Touches on your point from the perspective of the oppressed.
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