Identify yourself as not being a stereotype

[jpgray]

If you fall under these categories, don't post here:

1. I want impeachment carried out right now! No matter -what- the cost or practicability.

2. I want to do nothing

If you're somewhere between those extremes (i.e. expressing #1 just to put pressure on public officials to investigate, etc.), feel free to identify yourself by posting here as existing between DU's two exclusive polar options on impeachment. In doing so, hopefully we'll get rid of these two arguments:

"So you'd rather do nothing?"

"So you're a Constitution-hating DLC corporate stooge who is complicit in the crimes of the GOP?"

There's a middle ground, and I think most DUers reside there.

[bananas]

1. This is a real problem on DU - things get very polarized. nt

[cobalt1999]

4. yes, they do.

People get their emotions up and turn their brains off. Logic goes out the window.

[cynatnite]

2. Very true and well said n/t

[kdmorris]

3. I definitely fall into the middle

Neither of those statements apply to what I think of impeachment.

This could probably be said of many issues that we seem to fight about all the time.

[Posteritatis]

5. On that scale of 1-2 I'm about a 1.2. (nt)

[jpgray]

6. :-D

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. i am neither

[EstimatedProphet]

8. Good thread idea

We need to put a stop to the passive-aggressive bashing of posters. It's out of control, and it's in almost every GD thread anymore, impeachment or not.

[Ezlivin]

9. The Revolution is in the Middle

There are the fanatics and the dispassionate. The former are too unstable to foment revolution; the latter too apathetic to do anything.

That leaves us.

The creamy nougat filling.

We are the revolutionaries.

Viva la DU!

[jpgray]

10. We are the 3 Musketeers bar of liberty.

:D

[Madspirit]

11. If you're not a centrist you're a piece of shoe doodoo...I think not...n/t

[jpgray]

12. Do you define everything between those extremes as centrism?

I hope not.

[Madspirit]

14. I am further left than most here

I'm old. I'm tired of waiting.
Lee

[jpgray]

15. This isn't a right-left issue. All DUers want Bush held accountable

We just disagree on how to do it.

[JVS]

13. I think the time is ripe to get the impeachment ball rolling

If they keep waiting they might miss their chance.

[jpgray]

17. If they push too soon, it will be empty and ineffectual political theater

If they wait too long, it will be as you say. So again, best to be somewhere in the middle.

[JVS]

23. No. The middle is always best is not always true. Eventually there is a time to go for it, and..

it's now.

You know well that splitting the difference is not always the correct course. I offer the following reasons for impeachment

1. Although there is not a majority in favor of impeachment, there is an even smaller number of people against it. This means that the plurality of people support impeachment and a minority opposes. Remember that there are undecideds/indifferents here.

2. I think there is a good case for impeaching Bush. Since the case is good, the undecided should be able to be convinced of the correctness of impeaching the president. One might say "why does this matter? we don't have the votes" But if living in the US political system has taught us anything it should be that politicians are poll watchers.

3. Speaking of the polls. Bush's popularity is unlikely to go any lower than than it already is, unless of course a detailed airing of all the misdeeds of his administration are made public. Iran Contra was able to drive down Reagan's popularity and this stuff should do the same to Bush.

4. Once again with eyes on the polls, republican politicians are eager to create for themselves a perception of being independent of the Bush administration. That's why he is not welcomed for campaigning by many of them. In an environment where members of his own party are trying to distance themselves from him, it is not unthinkable that some of the GOP senators might jump ship. Basically what I'm getting at is that to count up votes now and say "nope, we don't have it" is foolishness because the votes are taken after an extensive airing of information damaging to Bush and politicians will be watching the public reaction

5. Ok, so that's why to do it, now let's consider why not do it later. Although Bush is polling low, congress is also polling low. Anyone know why? :shrug: If this continues congress may find itself in a position where incumbents are so afraid for 2008 that they dare not take action. So they should do it before they are too concerned with elections to be able to muster the effort. If they are disapproved of by the people for being too active, then they might as well pack up because the people obviosly don't want them doing anything.

6. impeachment is best scheduled before an administration has run out the clock on their term.

6.

[jpgray]

28. Good post. Given two extreme views, that doesn't mean the truth or what's right is always inbetween

The main counterargument to impeachment now is that we have a tiny majority unable (at present) to carry off conviction, current investigations may uncover better evidence for a more effective impeachment effort, and finally there are a few strategic dangers (whether it will be used as an avenue to boost the PR of the GOP--Rove's good at the ol' "behold me, I am wronged!" and "political theater!" accusations). Certainly it would tend to increase GOP solidarity, as they would see impeachment as an attack against their party as well as an attack on Bush. It may necessarily politicize his malfeasance in the ongoing investigations ("they just want to impeach!"), and turn investigations of real high crimes into what the media love to call "partisan bickering." Pursuant to that, instead of running away from Bush, impeachment might lead GOP folks to band together--no politician likes to see a member of his party cut out and eliminated by the other. A successful conviction or a solid preliminary investigation would mitigate that last problem quite a bit. And it's not good to operate in total fear of what your opponent is going to do.

I could be totally wrong, and you could be totally right. But I see it better to wait at least for some of the wiretap investigations to mature a bit more.

[JVS]

27. After seeing your edit

The time when they would have been pushing too soon is past, they should be able to do it. And if they republicans stop it, it might be effective rather than ineffectual political theater in that they will have to answer for their deeds in 2008

[jpgray]

29. That's also possible.

[Jed Dilligan]

16. Politicians won't get any subtle messages we send

We have to bluff them into thinking we want their blood to get them to take one itty-bitty baby step towards what's right.

[jpgray]

18. That's an important part of activism people need to understand

I tried to account for it in my post.

[Jed Dilligan]

19. Yes you did. Thank you.

It needs to be said again and again, though. Politicians, like the public, are dense and slow when it comes to absorbing information. The campaign tactics for each are the same. There is no longer any need for a public campaign against the war; the war campaigns against itself. But now we need to campaign the politicians, and you can only do that with a sledgehammer, so leave the scalpel at home. Or don't come at all.

[baldguy]

20. Trying to "move forward" without impeachemnt is like trying to paint a house that's on fire.

We have to fix the underlying problem before we can hope to move forward. The underlying problem is Bush & his cronies.

[mmonk]

22. Yep. More like sideways as the floor disappears.

[TheBaldyMan]

21. I'm a Scotsman who ate porridge earlier with milk and a sprinkling of demerara sugar

I dare anyone to tell me that I am not a true Scotsman.

[Swamp Rat]

25. Depends

Are you north or south of Glasgow? :D

[TheBaldyMan]

26. Due east in between Edinburgh and Glasgow

Everybody has to be from somewhere.

[Swamp Rat]

30. "You're about as Scottish as the Queen of England's tits."

:D



I'm Clan Keith, btw. ;)

[TheBaldyMan]

32. !?!?!

he he,
Stuart of Appin myself (the clan became defunct after Culloden)

[w8liftinglady]

24. I would like to see bush,cheney and rumsfeld tried at The Hague.

Impeachment is too good for them.they need to answer to the world.

[PeaceNikki]

31. I am in the middle. And the Democrats in Congress are, too.

They speak for their constituency and, like most DUers, they stand on the middle ground, also known as REALITY.

Just because they do not support impeachment right fucking now does NOT mean that:
They are pedophiles caught on camera with videotaped evidence held by the GOP.
They are spineless jellyfish.
They are liars who need to be removed from office.

Just sayin'.

[terrya]

33. I'm one of those middle people

I don't want to do nothing. But the votes for impeachment just aren't there. I don't want to do some futile process that will be seen as a partisan gesture.

I'm honest to admit I don't know what to do at this point.

[ProgressiveFool]

34. Passion is a great thing

But "My way or the highway" positions and discussion boards are mutually exclusive things.

I want to see Gonzo, Cheney and Bush impeached, and am angered when I hear our elected people say they have "other priorities" or "not enough time", or "it's not worth it". That's just copping out.

I am equally annoyed, however, at those who are so impatient to get it done that they want our Dems to go about it immediately, without a solid case, or good chance of success. That makes impeachment a partisan exercise, which is what the Repubs did to Clinton in '98. It is important that impeachment of Bush go down in the historical record as the will of the people, as a correction of a great wrong wrought upon us and on the world, and that it set a real precedent for how impeachment can and should be used, rather than following the disastrous precedent set against Clinton.

[jpgray]

36. Excellent post. And welcome to DU!

:hi:

[InkAddict]

35. I am not always what I may seem.

The trouble is I'm conflicted. I've never done "sad" well; it always comes out as anger. I FEAR I would alienate more than I could persuade by that anger and hot tears, so I leave it to others to calmly take up the gauntlet and the process.

I have issues that pre-date the 2000 theft. One incidence, in particular, reached it's covert tentacles into my home, and brought paranoia and the sleepness nights of worrying they'd really OFF me. Surprise, they didn't have to--they just removed job after job, home after home. I'll never see the roses I planted bloom nor visit my little dead doggie's grave again and many friends, relatives, and "enemies" of my State (of mind)have moved on, as have I; broken relationships forever. Those things might seem trivial to everyone else, but it's what I cherished about my very little footprint on this America. I honestly believe my Constitutional rights were violated, but being just poor enough, I learned how little legal justice works in this country, and I'm not healed; perhaps that violation, that rape of my GUARANTEED(?)right will forever fester.

I've done the "hang in there kitty" so long that the fast-twitch response has passed, and the long-twitch response won't let go, a domestic complex PTSD, if you like. Just what the H can one do to create change when one is hangin' on by the fingernails. All that's left of a life-time of work is a voice that keeps repeating, "if you rest, you rust," so I try to make decisions of action and thought while awaiting some secure hoist back up among the living.

I've called my Congress critters; I've volunteered in campaign activities, I've been to the streets of DC and on the corner of my own State capitol, OK-one time each. My passion is real, but my pocketbook's empty. Someone once said to me that the "poor have no choices" and they said it without a hint at regret for that circumstance or any plans to assist in changing it; it pissed me off, and I've got to prove that that's wrong in America, some how, some way.

I'm not uneducated, just not very savvy about politics, but what's going on is most definitely NOT what I learned about what my country stands for and I AM ASHAMED of how my values have been trampled. Heck, my Fundie folks told me once that they contributed by "mowing their grass," and I just know how wrong, how apathetic, how PATHETIC that is, and I refuse, after examining what I know, to just keep my mouth closed and my actions limited to such a ridiculous assertion. But lately, I'm not going for being a "pillar" of my community. I'm just another brick in the DU wall tryin' to bust loose to live free and secure in some hope that the rule of law will prevail toward goodness in this country, and I ain't seeing much of it lately! Call it a tantrum, call it what you will, but I am not a stereotype! I also apologize if I've said too much or what I've said was somehow not relevant to this thread!

[radfringe]

37. what's wrong with being a stereotype

some of my best middle ground friends are stereotypes....

[radfringe]

38. hey ! some of my best stereotype friends live in the middle ground...

[dorkulon]

39. I am not a drunken Irishman.

I am, however, a fat, lazy American.

:evilgrin: