So....It comes down to this: DU'ers who are surprised about Conyers/Leahy and those who have Read!

[KoKo]

Bear with me on this...because I can't do long posts trying to include EVERYONE's Dem Feelings...and the background...and I'm kind of always "seeking a center" as to who I am.... BUT...I see a big SPLIT in our DEMOCRATIC PARTY if they can't seem to get a grip on the opposing forces working within it.

Since I'm a short poster I'll just ask this question of my WARRING fellow DU'ers:

Do you expect change from those Magnificent Old Warriors like Patrick Leahy and John Conyers who are battle scarred old lions who have seen much and now are trying to "center" themselves to leave a legacy that won't tar their memory...which means COMPROMISE...COMPROMISE...and harkens back to a time when there wasn't "You Tube" and Bill Gates Internet and all that goes with it in TIME CONSUMPTION and UP-FRONT SNARKINESS AND KEWL KIDS BANTER.

I would like to be like Leahy and Conyers ...WAITING for the TITANIC TO AVOIC THE ICEBERG...And hoping that the Captain of Titanic will heed the warnings..

BUT...I've read Howard Zinn...I've read Kevin Phillip's "American Dynasty" and I've read lots of books and read lots of discussion about "9/11" that isn't "Explosives" but Moderate Stuff that we have rightful questions about WHY???? WHY???? and it's NOT Explosives...but that folks IGNORED IT.

I've been here a long time...I've read so many posts my brain spins...like I'm wondering if I'm an Alzheimers candidate because the FACTS AND FIGURES SWIRL night and day in my brain.

But...through it all...I moved from a Centrist DLC DEMOCRAT....over to what's now called a LEFTIE DEMOCRAT because the OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE IS...that our TWO PARTY SYSTEM IS BROKEN!

UNTIL WE FIX the CINDY SHEEHAN WING with the MODERATE DEM WING ....(which includes the DLC and the Hopeful.."Govt. WORKS" wing ...just WAIT AND SEE..WING)...then I think maybe we are NOT going to accomplish what the RW EVANGELICALS/ROVE BOTS and CONSTITUTIONAL/GLOBALIST THINK TANKERS have accomplished in ALL THESE YEARS!

We might WIN BACK WH in '08....BUT...OUR MESSAGE AND PHILOSOPHY will NOT STAND THE TEST OF TIME ...GIVEN THE MONEY that always WORKS AGAINST US..and the IDEOLOGY.

Just throwing this out....

Respectfully......koko

[MissWaverly]

1. Well, my worry is that there is only 1 party, the money party

Republicans were overwhelmed and their values were sucked out of their party. They became empire builders, global adventurers, big spenders and givers of no-bid contracts to sharks that dined off our money. I am worried that these same "special interests" will seize control of our party. So when the election rolls around in 08, after a big dem "win" we have business as usual with war in Iraq, NAFTA, more free trade agreements, out of control spending to enrich the top 2% and more tax cuts for corporations and the rich.

Lieberman is supposedly a democrat from one of the most liberal states but he acts like a neocon rightie and does not represent
his constituency at all.

[mmonk]

2. Your heart is in the right place.

Me, I can only go on what I know and the erosion that is taking place in America has me worried.

[burythehatchet]

3. Rec'd. Its a question that needs to be asked. n/t

[eleny]

4. Recommended

[bigtree]

5. so now anyone who has worked for years to hold republicans accountable

are just in it for their legacy?

You have absolutely no evidence of this. Where, other than in their committees, is there an investigatory/prosecutorial effort already underway? Who in the 'impeach now crowd has a similar effort underway which is in any position at all to confront the White House? Find me that person who has advanced their accountability efforts to the point at which they are ready to issue subpoenas and officially petition for contempt charges against those in the WH who resist and obstruct? Who in the 'impeach now' crowd has such an effort underway and in position to directly confront the administration?

Where is this 'change' manifesting itself in a form which is in ANY position to enact it? From what I see from the committees of Conyers, Leahy, and Waxman - 'Magnificent Old Warriors' - they are the ONLY ones who have managed to actually DO something other than just protest. Where have the 'impeach now' individuals or coalitions managed to actually, materially confront the administration with ANYTHING with even a REMOTE chance of achieving the 'change' you are claiming these 'Magnificent Old Warriors' have shied away from in favor of some 'centrist legacy?' Where have these folks you put on a pedestal been even moderately successful in advancing the ONE remedy (impeachment) they claim will cure all ills?

[Pastiche423]

6. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

[John Q. Citizen]

8. How's the Condi subpeona going? It's been what 2 or 3 months? I guess

accountability is only for the poor in America.

I should just get used to it.

[bigtree]

10. personally worked hard on that one, eh?

I haven't seen ONE post from you outlining the issues surrounding that effort. I would be nice to see that concern of yours manifest itself into SOMETHING which advances toward action at LEAST as far as that committee effort did. Is there such an effort which has advanced past the sniping stage, and is in ANY position to directly confront Bush?? I'll stick with those who managed the confrontation this far until someone, anyone, demonstrates they have the coalition and means to do something more than snipe at those already working toward that end we all say we want.

[John Q. Citizen]

14. I'll get right on it. The people I hired to do it are more interested in waiting out the clock

and collecting a check. I guess I should be grateful though. They did raise the minimum wage to $5.72 a freaking hour.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. "Battled-scarred lions"

Ha. The key to getting at the Republican party is to hold them accountable for their wrong-doings. But that can't be done because there are too many "battled-scarred lions" who have forged relationships with these pricks, and, also, maybe because Democrats have skeletons in their closets too. So, maybe the problem is that we have too many lions which stay too long. Maybe what we need is someone who will throw caution to the wind and just take a swing at them.

Let the chips fall where they may.

[Horse with no Name]

9. I'm getting to be of the persuasion

That perhaps we might be disappointed because even if the Dems get the WH--we still might not have won--depending on who the actual candidate is.:(
We could very well have more of the same with different letters behind their name.

[LSK]

11. did you read The Assault on Reason?

:shrug:

[H2O Man]

12. Very interesting post.

You raise a number of good points. One in particular is of interest to me, and that is how things change as one gets older. In the case of many leaders, a certain pattern takes place.

An example I like would be Red Cloud, the Lakota leader from the 1800s. When he was a young man, many of his elders considered him too militant; when he was older, the younger men thought he was not militant enough.

There have been some discussion about Martin Luther King, Jr., today. Even in his relatively short life, many older civil rights leaders considered him a bit too militant in the late 1950s and early '60s, and younger activists thought he wasn't militant enough by 1967.

There are, of course, many other examples, including people who were militant leaders in the '60s and '70s, and who are our elder statesmen today. They haven't sold out. Nor is it a case of them having been wrong in the past, but correct today.

People change with age. That's okay. A healthy society listens closely to both its young lions and old lions.

Thank you for this post.

[hfojvt]

19. a young person wants to die nobly for a cause

an old person wants to live humbly for that same cause

paraphrasing Salinger.

I see too much 'all-or-nothing' thinking. Since Hillary is not perfect, she is no different from Bush. Isn't that how we got Bush? The old 'not a dime's worth of difference'? Since the Democratic House has not accomplished everything in the first 200 days, they have accomplished nothing. Might as well not support Democrats any more.

[smiley_glad_hands]

13. There is not much they can do

without the votes of some republicans.

[John Q. Citizen]

15. They could defund the occupation, but they won't. Instead they passed legislation

demanding Iraq put the multinationals in charge of thier oil resources.

That tells me the plan is for us to be in Iraq for a long, long, time. Who will protect the interests of the oil companies do you suppose?

[truedelphi]

16. And the MSM's portrayal of that action is

That the Iraqi governement must step to the plate and take up what the Americn Congress wants and make sure that it agrees to recent discussions in their Congress to give the Iraqi Oil to the people of Iraq <sigh>

[John Q. Citizen]

17. They can fudge it to that because within the same law there is also distrbution

of royalties formula paid by the new owners to the old owners based on geographic location, ie Shia, Sunni, Kurds.

So they just give half the story, and treat the manditory production agreements with big oil as a given.

[libnnc]

18. My answer?

And this is not a reflection on you this is just how I feel now after being punched in the gut by both Conyers AND Sheehan...

From now on, my answer to all of it is...




"Swell. Now what?"





That's all I've got.

Swell. Now what?

[leftofthedial]

20. a small group of powerful capitalists

own both parties

keep in mind, the party system is NOT part of our Constitution

our current system is beyond redemption

money wins, almost everyone in America loses

[OneBlueSky]

21. you can't compromise with dictators . . . they won't allow it . . . n/t

.