The whine about Congress waiting until after recess to vote on contempt is pathetic

[bigtree]

They will vote and it will pass. In the meantime, there can be an effort from those who are impatient to pressure republicans who might be inclined to join the WH in their obstruction.

Democrats are moving on an effort which couldn't get a bit of attention or support from the impeachment-obsessed. There is no harm at all in waiting until they return to take this up and move it forward. It'll be a good companion to the efforts to move Bush on Iraq.

Chin up.

[libnnc]

1. There should be no August recess.

For anyone on the Hill.

Keep working.

[MNDemNY]

50. I second that.

[Janice325]

2. WTF??????

:argh:
Fucking cowards!!!
I can't wait for the next "Terra" alert or attack that will cause distraction during the recess. :sarcasm:
k&r

[Junkdrawer]

3. What a bunch of whiners...

"Ohh ohh...I don't want to live in a Fascist State"...

"Ohh ohh...No one should be totally above the law"...

As if there weren't more important things to worry about....

[libnnc]

5. We've got money to raise, rubber chicken to eat, palms to grease

and elections to win, baby.


Quit whining about the law and pass the slaw...

[originalpckelly]

6. I know, "My President authorizes torture..."

Wah, wah, wah!

[Junkdrawer]

9. and "Ohh Ohh, I don't want to see my neighbor's kid killed in Iraq."...

They need to get a life...

[bigtree]

20. as if waiting until they return to pass this had anything at all to do with those lives

which you so callously and offensively flail around, as if there was something in my complaint which was in any way in disregard or disrespect of those lives.

[Junkdrawer]

23. Caving on an Iraq timeline....Stalling on enforcing the law...

It's a pattern only whiners see....

[bigtree]

24. It was Howard Fineman who first used the 'cave-in' language after the vote

for the temporary Democratic funding bill. The timelines still stand; still obstructed by republicans; still overwhelmingly supported by the majority of Democrats.

Your 'pattern' is sophistry.

[Junkdrawer]

27. Actually, I got the language from Skinner...

What a great week for the DU fund drive... The site keeps crashing and the Democrats caved!

[bigtree]

30. I was watching immediately after the vote. The first MSNBC report came from Fineman

His comments were followed by Blitzer on CNN who called it capitulation (just for the record)

[Junkdrawer]

26. Self delete

[IChing]

13. Miers and Bolten are in contempt of congress....wah, wah, wah

Vacation
All I ever wanted
Vacation
Had to get away
Vacation
Meant to be spent alone

[libnnc]

14. "Wah, wah, email interceptions and wiretaps...."

Titty babies.

Wah!

[bigtree]

19. so, NOW you're paying attention to what Congress is doing to confront Bush

couldn't get a peep from the impeachment or bust crowd about these committee efforts until they produced something for the constant critics to latch onto; like they had actually been participating in something concrete which had any direct effect on the administration all along with their protests of our own party and our own party members.

[libnnc]

32. I've been paying attention.

Hearings, empty chairs, strongly worded threats, more hearings, more hostile witnesses with convenient amnesia followed by more strongly worded letters threatening more hearings where more short term memory morons will lie under oath.......


I've been paying very close attention.

[bigtree]

37. obviously not close enough

'hearings' and 'letters' are part of ANY prosecution, including an impeachment which leads to an acquittal along party lines.

[libnnc]

40. "which leads to an acquittal along party lines"

Then why do any of it?

No one will be punished. Nothing will be gained.

These same creeps will turn up again in Washington 12 years from now to undo everything the Dem congress and White House did way back in '08.

If they are not put away now we will see them later. The same recycled pigs from the Nixon and Reagan administrations are the ones holding us hostage now. It will never end.

[bigtree]

43. I believe in securing some sort of outside prosecution or investigation

which could remove any taint of partisanship and galvanize enough recalcitrant republicans into joining in a unified rebuke of the administration. Long shot, but, the only scenario I see where impeachment will be effective or managable to a realistic expectation of a conviction.

[BlooInBloo]

4. DU is in a fever pitch right now. Don't bother trying to reason it down.

[here_is_to_hope]

Its rare I agree with you but you are right. n/t

[martymar64]

82. You're right

We should all just sit meekly and hope that bush will see the error of his ways. Great plan!

[bdamomma]

7. oh in a way let them go vacation and let them hear a mouthful

FROM US. Throw them out to us, they need to hear from us.

[dorkulon]

8. Isn't it hypocritical

for everyone in congress to be bitching about the Iraqi Parliament going on vacation when they're doing exactly the same thing?

[bigtree]

15. the complaint about the Iraqi parliament isn't as the republicans frame it

It's not the Democrats who are holding our troops hostage to Iraqi politics. Our party is saying that if the Iraqi government isn't interested in working on these political benchmarks Bush has set, then why should our troops be bogged down there, 'giving them room' to do what they obviously don't want to? Pointing to the Iraqi vacation to 'get out of the heat' while our soldiers are defending their positions with their lives and livelihoods is not at all analogous to our Congress recessing and putting this off until they return.

[dorkulon]

22. But it stands to reason that

congress has just as much to do about Iraq as the gov't there does. Frankly, I think everyone deserves a vacation. And the heat is not the only reason the Iraqis need a vacay--many of them have families in other countries, and other obligations to attend to.

I just think it's silly to complain about either body taking a break, and it strikes me that the pressure on the Iraqis has everything to do with pressuring to pass the exploitative hydrocarbon law.

[bdamomma]

29. exactly.

[endarkenment]

10. Ah good of course here come the 'splainers,.

It is all goodness. Indeed I see how the pressure on Republicans is working its magic. That would explain the party line vote in the committee, the massive defections from all of those fence sitting moderate republicans over in the senate on the Iraq amendment, yes that pressure is becoming unbearable. The Republican half of the War Party is going to cave any minute now.

[Virginia Dare]

16. I guess they should spend the month of August..

breaking Republican knee-caps, or maybe hang them by their thumbs? Or maybe they could get the way back machine fired up and erase everything that's happened over the last 7 years? :shrug:

[Lilith Velkor]

55. Yes to your first proposal

:)

[Virginia Dare]

89. I figured at least one person would bite on that one...

I must admit, the image is sweet..:evilgrin:

[endarkenment]

60. Well perhaps they could spare the time to issue the contempt citations?

That, in this particular case, is all I am asking for. Would that be too difficult?

[bigtree]

17. followed by the constant critics

with their hollow criticisms

[dkofos]

11. I hope they remember what they were doing when they get back

FROM RECESS.

[Junkdrawer]

12. Chances are that *something* will happen that will make us all forget...

Time heals all crisis if you stall long enough, right?

[Major Hogwash]

18. Here's something else to think about if they do take a break.

If Congress does take an extended break, the MSM will bash Democrats for being a "do-nothing Congress" all month long.

They've already started using that meme.
They never mention that the Republicans are stonewalling any legislation they don't like.
They never tell the public how the Republicans all vote together, in a bloc, like the parties did in Russia just a few years ago.

During the August of 2004 and 2006, the MSM attacked the Democrats non-stop.
It wasn't until they got back to work in September that people could actually figure out for themselves that it was the Republicans in Congress that were the problem.

We need more Democrats in Congress!

[bigtree]

21. well, the meme is an empty lie

which can be defended by pointing out the unprecedented republican obstruction.

[LWolf]

25. The terms "whine" and "pathetic"

are pejorative, and are best left to bullies who don't have anything better to support the case they are trying to make.

This seems like an exercise in circular logic to me, since "whining" about dissent can be seen as "pathetic," thereby pathetically whining about pathetic whining.

You could simply say, "In my opinion, They will vote and it will pass.
There is no harm at all in waiting until they return to take this up and move it forward. It'll be a good companion to the efforts to move Bush on Iraq.

Chin up."

People can agree, or disagree, with your point without being "whiners" or "pathetic."

[bigtree]

28. but, it's the whining that I'm complaining about . . .

. . . the constant whining about our Democrats, even when they are advancing our concerns. It's pathetic.

[LWolf]

33. Why is a complaint "whining" when you disagree,

but it is "complaining" when you agree?

Why is a complaint that you disagree with "pathetic?" Do you think that all opinions that differ from your own are "pathetic?"

[bigtree]

35. no. but these arguments about the recess strike me as mere whines

and I think that's pathetic in the face of the accomplishment in committee today which was promptly ignored in favor of yet another epic pout.

[Junkdrawer]

31. I've noticed that about bigtree posts...

His OP opens with flamebait, and then, when people respond in kind, he assumes a "butter wouldn't melt in my mouth" rhetorical style.

[bigtree]

34. I'm not one-dimensional

and I try to accommodate all of the different responses and the variety of attitudes with a level of parity of antagonism or comity which compliments the post.

[Junkdrawer]

36. And besides, rational OPs sink like rocks...

Right? :shrug:

[bigtree]

38. you mean mundane subject lines?

you betcha.

But, 'rationality' is really in the mind of the beholder.

[Junkdrawer]

39. Just for kicks, what's your definition of "flamebait"?

:shrug:

[bigtree]

42. for starters

using this thread to prod me into a discussion on the "definition of flamebait

[BlooInBloo]

47. Whatever the mods say it is. Duh.

[TahitiNut]

44. There's a lot of that to notice.

:shrug:

[bigtree]

45. take it or leave it

I'm not campaigning for anything.

[TahitiNut]

53. Well, Tony Snow uses those terms frequently. Just in the last few hours, as a matter of fact.

It's right-wing rhetoric, actually. Go figure. :shrug:

[bigtree]

56. they don't own the language or the sentiment

go figure, yourself


We have no thoughts of our own: they are transmitted to us, trained into us. All that is original in us, and therefore fairly creditable or discreditable to us, can be covered up and hidden by the point of a cambric needle, all the rest being atoms contributed by, and inherited from, a procession of ancestors that stretches back a billion years to the Adam-clam or grasshopper or monkey from whom our race has been so tediously and ostentatiously and unprofitably developed. And as for me, all that I think about in this plodding sad pilgrimage, this pathetic drift between the eternities, is to look out and humbly live a pure and high and blameless life, and save that one microscopic atom in me that is truly me: the rest may land in Sheol and welcome, for all I care. -- Mark Twain

[LWolf]

57. Indeed.

Enough said. :grr:

[bigtree]

58. does that apply to everything he's ever said?

or just the words that have been arbitrarily morphed with my own, despite the lack of ANY association with what I wrote?

[LWolf]

63. Are you asking if everything Tony Snow says is "right wing rhetoric,"

or if referring to those who disagree with you as "pathetic whiners" is right-wing rhetoric?

I consider it to be incivility. Right-wing rhetoric can very rarely be considered "civil." It generally takes on the tone of a bully. I consider verbal bullying, also, to be ill-mannered, as well as a weak way to make a point.

Whether your general conversation has more in common with Tony Snow than "whiners" and "pathetic," I don't know. I don't know you, and I haven't spent much time listening to you. :shrug:

[bigtree]

65. you know damn well that taking two COMMONLY USED words he's used

and equating them with my statements or beliefs is downright dishonest.

Or, do you?

[LWolf]

68. I'm beginning to think that

this little "discussion" is a vehicle to keep the thread kicked.

I don't think you should use terms like "whiners" and "pathetic" when making your points. I've clearly stated my reasons. You don't have to share Tony Snow's beliefs to engage in similar verbal warfare. I don't know if you do or not; as I already said, I don't know you.

I don't think you should engage in similar verbal warfare. Simple.

Of course, you are free to choose how to "attack" your subject, pun intended, lol. Just as I'm free to express disagreement with that choice.

[bigtree]

72. I can kick my own threads. I don't have a bit of problem responding though

It's what I come here for.

And, LWolf, I'm not one-dimensional. But, I am resolute in what I do. I stand behind the words and sentiments expressed in the OP, despite (not in spite of) your seemingly well-meaning advice.

[LWolf]

74. You've probably noticed

that I didn't argue with your premise. I don't agree with it, but I also respect your right to express your perspective.

I also understand getting angry, and frustrated, and wanting to "fight" about something you feel strongly about.

Whether you can believe it or not, my advice is well-meant for all of us.

What kind of conversation about an issue can we really have, if we are calling each other "whiners," "pathetic," and many other terms you and I both see here at DU every day?

It doesn't matter what side of the impeachment divide, the left/dlc divide, or any other democratic divide we stand on; a message is only as effective as our willingness to debate, rather than attack. Civility changes more perspectives than incivility.

[bigtree]

79. I have a journal. I express myself in many ways.

My writing on this day, and on this post, is a release for me, not some broad appeal like I like to make in my articles. I think folks tend to look at posts on this discussion page and assume they have the purpose, weight or influence of a published article. But I also come here to discuss, vent, support, as well as advocate; and, not all at once. Not all of my posts here will be sweetness and light, but you have to realize that folks express themselves in many different ways here for many different reasons; not always as part of some campaign or effort to influence.

[LWolf]

83. Ok.

I'll end this conversation by noting that, while I really "get" venting, venting at DU, against other DUers, is venting in public, not private.

[bigtree]

84. Venting against the 'whine' about the recess

. . . against the constant whining about our party and party members, which I think is pathetic in the face of the advancements of the efforts of these committees in actually confronting Bush. We can and should do better in supporting our Democrats who are working to make a difference in confronting Bush, no matter if we advocate impeachment or not.

It's really a mild term: To express negative feelings, especially of dissatisfaction or resentment: complain, grouch, grump. Informal : crab, gripe, grouse, kick. Slang : beef, bellyache, bitch.

Pathetic, also: Arousing or deserving pity: piteous, pitiable, pitiful, poor, rueful, ruthful.

[TreasonousBastard]

41. The whiners also forget...

or don't know, that during this recess our congresscritters will not be on vacation so much as they will be listening to just how their districts-- the people who actually vote for them and fund their campaigns-- feel about things.

We'll know more when they come back, and we might be pleasantly surprised.

Or we might not be.

(But whining now is just plain stupid-- find out when your guy's having a town hall or fundraiser and get in his or her face)

[endarkenment]

46. "we might be pleasantly surprised" - its tooth fairy time!

The congress critters in competitive districts are off getting those BIG DONATIONs and the ones in the non-competitive districts don't give a flying fuck. We sure got us some good democracy here. There are exceptions, but if you think our system actually works and is representative you are delusional.

[TreasonousBastard]

52. You're talkin' to a guy who grew up in...

Tammny New York and who spent 10 years living in New Jersey where two bosses divided the turf very evenly.

My congressman had the safest seat in the house, thanks to keeping his nose so far up Sharpe James' as he could smell his breath, so you know just how much he did for us.

I never did think much of all this representative democracy stuff, although it might be nice if it wasn't a pipedream and someone really tried it. What I do think a lot of, though, is that politicians have survival instincts, and if survival means doing one or two of the right things they could do, it'll be a start.

So, as I said, we see how they see the wind blowing when they get back.

[mzmolly]

54. Well then why bother ?

:hi:

[endarkenment]

59. That is an excellent question. I'm so glad you asked.

"we might be pleasantly surprised" is an entirely passive attitude and course of action. We sit back, relax and then september rolls by and perhaps they vote the subpoenas on the floor and then the courts do nothing as the DOJ refuses to persue the charge and then some more dithering and then oh perhaps in october maybe our Wise Leaders decide to do something about that and then....

'Why bother' is we need to kick our idiotic leadership in their butts on a daily basis until they get it, until they figure out that the process is broken, that they cannot keep putting off the confrontation that is surely coming. Waiting for that pleasant surprise that might happen is like waiting for the tooth fairy. Yes your parents made sure that tooth fairy actually came through for you, but that was a game. This is reality. There is no tooth fairy there are no parents, and the clowns in washington are just going to stall until the clock runs out on the Bush administration. That is their plan. Their only problem is keeping us sheep in our pens.

[mzmolly]

64. What good does it do to kick the corrupt in the ass?

Your assertion was that they're all on the take, no?

[endarkenment]

66. where did I say that?

"Your assertion was that they're all on the take, no?" no.

They are all quite comfortable with being the majority party in congress. The 'take' is so quaint, such a 19th century concept. The modern 'take' is all quite legal in the form of campaign contributions and lobbying efforts and the entire stink of the mess in washington. Sometimes it gets embarassingly out of control as with Abramoff et al, but mostly it is just business as usual.

Our party leaders would rather have the comfy offices than rock the boat. But you keep thinking otherwise and keep waiting for that pleasant surprise.

[mzmolly]

69. Our party leaders want to be re-elected. Money talks and so do we.

Glad you're not completely "discouraged." I remain hopeful, personally.

[trashcanistanista]

48. Because the candidates could raise more money

if people knew that Meirs and Bolton were locked up in the basement over recess.

[LSK]

49. but but but Harriet Myers is personally slaying troops in Iraq

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[mzmolly]

51. I love rational DU-ers. You rock BT! "First time in history..." Tony Snow.

"Now we have a situation where there is an attempt to do something that's never been done in American history, which is to assail the concept of executive privilege which hails back to the administration of George Washington and in particular to use criminal contempt charges against the White House chief of staff and the White House legal counsel," said White House Spokesman Tony Snow.

NEVER BEEN DONE IN AMERICAN HISTORY. Wow.

:hi: Recommended.

oops forgot de link. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070725/ap_on_go_co/prosecutors_contempt

[Disturbed]

62. "*something* will happen that will make us all forget.."

My bet is that the US will attack inside Pakistan. No ground troops but a lot of air strikes and "US Advisors" on the ground. Al Q & the Taliban will be ground down by missles and bombs.

[checks-n-balances]

67. That's a clearcut case of projection if I've ever heard one

True to the republican playbook & one of their favorite ploys.

[martymar64]

85. If the contempt citation can't be enforced, it's useless

Who's gonna go arrest miers, you? Me? Superman?

The correct answer is: NOBODY!

Last I checked, congress has no police force. All the federal law enforcement organs are under the executive branch and they certainly aren't going to arrest her if bush says no.

Face it, without impeachment, we're fucked.

[mzmolly]

90. Not quite...

Inherent contempt

Under this process, the procedure for holding a person in contempt involves only the chamber concerned. Following a contempt citation, the person cited for contempt is arrested by the Sergeant-at-Arms for the House or Senate, brought to the floor of the chamber, held to answer charges by the presiding officer, and then subject to punishment that the House may dictate (usually imprisonment for punishment reasons, imprisonment for coercive effect, or release from the contempt citation.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_Congress

[Marrah_G]

61. They are to busy bashing Conyers to stop and think about anything else.

[Junkdrawer]

70. Mystery Solved...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1432299&mesg_id=1435175

[bigtree]

73. It's all just a big fucking joke, right Junkdrawer?

like kids in a junior high school cafeteria trying to impress their peers

[Junkdrawer]

75. It appears to me that you started numerous threads dissing DUers...

for whining about a week-or-so delay on a critical vote when, in fact, we were reacting to a 40 day delay.

Am I wrong? :shrug:

[bigtree]

76. I think it's convenient for you to ignore the substance of my posts

and focus on my character; as you have on this thread

[Junkdrawer]

78. You start your thread with "whine" and "pathetic", then claim I'm attacking your character?

:nopity:

[bigtree]

80. not 'whiner' but 'a whine' about the recess

which I think is pathetic. Not a characterization of a person, but of an action.

[librechik]

71. now it's the citizen's turn--to spank thoise Republicans into voting with the Dems

Go to all the Town Halls you can get into, visit your congresscritter at his home office, camp out on the capitol lawn... You know. Threaten them with their jobs. Make them smart! That's what is supposed to happen during the recess. We have to have that first. if we held the vote today we would lose for sure instead of just maybe.

[martymar64]

77. Who's going to enforce a contempt citation and arrest Miers, et al?

DOJ and Gonzo aren't going to do it.
If it can't be enforced, its just masturbation on congress's part, a feel-good resolution, like Hands Across America.

[bigtree]

81. Why should they have the opportunity to act on this at all

given that they're targets of the investigation. I actually think this delay could give room and time to flesh all of that out and heighten calls for an independent investigation.

[martymar64]

86. Bush and Gonzo won't permit an independent counsel

so that idea is useless. Unless Congress discovers a way to apply armed force against the executive branch, there is nothing they can do to stop them. Bush has nothing to fear from us.

[bigtree]

87. how did we get Fitzgerald?

[martymar64]

88. Ashcroft let Fitzgerald in.

Ashcroft is no longer the AG, Gonzo is.

Next question, please.