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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 08:19 AM
Original message
On Discussions & Debates
{1} "One day, I remember, a dirty glass of water was on a counter and Mr. Muhammad put a clean glass of water beside it. ‘You want to know how to spread my teachings?’ he said, and pointed to the glasses of water. ‘Don’t condemn if you see a person has a dirty glass of water,’ he said, ‘just show them the glass of water that you have. When they inspect it, you won’t have to say that yours is better.’ Of all the things that Mr. Muhammad ever was to teach me, I don’t know why, that still stands out in my mind." – The Autobiography of Malcolm X, page 205

Last night, I was thinking about some of the recent discussions on DU. It seems to me that DU serves us best when discussions – including most of the heated debates – provide us an opportunity to examine all sides of an issue, like glasses of water on the counter. Perhaps this is especially true in the issues that are the most controversial: impeachment, the democratic primaries, how to end the US war of occupation in Iraq, and others.

When we are confident in our opinions, we usually are patient with people with differing points of view. We are happy to place our glass of water on the counter next to their glass. We do not have a compulsive need to demand that other glasses of water be taken off of the counter. We trust that those who thirst for knowledge will look at the different glasses, and pick out the cleanest one.

{2} " I’ve told how debating was a weekly event there at the Norfolk Prison Colony. … Standing up and speaking before an audience was a thing that throughout my previous life never would have crossed my mind. … I will tell you that, right there, in the prison, debating, speaking to a crowd, was as exhilarating to me as the discovery of knowledge through reading had been. …. Whichever side of the selected subject was assigned to me, I’d track down and study everything I could find on it. I’d put myself in my opponent’s place and decide how I’d try to win if I had the other side; and then I’d figure a way to knock down those points. ….

" ‘Compulsory Military Training – Or None?’ That’s one good chance I got unexpectedly, I remember. My opponent flailed the air about the Ethiopians throwing rocks and spears at Italian airplanes, ‘proving’ that compulsory military training was needed. I said the Ethiopians’ black flesh had been splattered against trees by bombs the Pope in Rome had blessed, and the Ethiopians would have thrown even their bare bodies at the airplanes because they had seen that they were fighting the devil incarnate.

"They yelled ‘foul,’ that I’d made the subject a race issue. I said it wasn’t race, it was a historical fact, that they ought to go and read Pierre van Paasen’s ‘Days of Our Years,’ and something not surprising to me, that book, right after the debate, disappeared from the prison library." – The Autobiography of Malcolm X; page 184.

When we debate controversial topics on DU, we should be aware of any tendency to try to remove certain glasses of water from the counter. I do not mean the removal of those things which obviously violate the rules here, such as attempts to disrupt, or efforts to promote non-democratic candidates. Those who administer the Democratic Underground do us all a favor by removing those types of posts, and sometimes, the posters.

In so large a forum as this, there are going to be a wide variety of points of view. I think it is great to have an opportunity to participate in the discussions here. Reading the various opinions expressed here, and the foundations that various DUers make to support their opinion, is a pleasure. Most of all, I am impressed by those DUers with a grasp of history, and an ability to show the connections between what happened in the past, to what is taking place today. And even in the case of those few DUers who hold opinions I have no respect for, I do not wish for their posts to be magically removed. Their glass of water has as much right to be placed on the counter, and held up to close examination, as my own. In fact, I like it that way.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. Amen!
Thank you for posting this. IMO, it needs to be read and understood. It really saddens me to watch some of the attacks. I love DU and I wish it were a place for good discussion and the sharing of ideas and goals.

K&R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thank you.
I was hoping this would be of interest to DUers.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. You are welcome.
What I want to hear and see is WHY some Dem a DUer is supporting is a good candidate. I want to hear about issues, about the candidate's record and I would like to see good questions asked when there are disagreements about positions that candidate is presently taking or which have been taken in the past.

In other words, give me some good reason to support a certain Dem for the office.

Right now...I am not happy with any of the choices who have presently declared. Granted in the 2008 General Election I will vote for the Dem candidate...but how about giving me some reason to WORK for that person prior to the election besides he/she is the lessor of two evils who are running.

And maybe the Pubbies were correct about one thing: The 11th Commandment ~~ the Dem version: Do NOT speak ill of another Democrat. (Caveat: Joe LIEberman.)

JMHO
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I enjoy the discussions
and even most of the heated debates about the various candidates who either are, or who may, enter the primaries. I think that a number of the announced candidates have the potential to not only win the election in '08, but to make significant positive changes in the direction this country is heading in. Though I haven't given any serious thought about which one I will vote for in the primary, the positive qualities of several is what I'm most interested in.

It's interesting for me to consider how in '59 and '60, JFK was considered an inexperienced, fairly conservative politician. It wasn't until he became president that people began to see that had another side, with the potential to institute progressive change. That potential was, of course, cut short before he had a second term that could have allowed him to do so much more. Still, that promise is remembered more than the inexperienced, conservative candidate.

I think a lot of us would like to see some of that promise fulfilled. It's another time, and a different world. But our values are much the same.

And, in terms of debates, I think that we can all agree it was a good thing for the country to have Kennedy debate Nixon.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Yep....
...good debate is one thing. Nastiness is another. So many good posters, like you, can debate without nasty attacks ~~ even about subjects on which you have very strong views. I hope we can all discuss and trade thoughts and info...no need to attack IMO.

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countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. Great post.
You are one of those DUers with the ability to make connection between the past and now. I learn a lot here at DU.

Thanks.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. I agree....
...H20's posts are great. If I see his nick, I take the time to read what he has to say. Re: Libby ~~ what a great source of info H20 was and still is!

I like the way he discusses ~~ never gets nasty even when taking a dif position than another poster or asking someone some tough questions. That is good debate.

What I don't like to see on the DU ~~ cuz I love the DU and everyone on here so much ~~ is nastiness between posters. We are all here cuz we support a better way of running the govt. If we attack...it should be THEM and not US!

:hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. "Arrogant, pompous, obnoxious,
vain, cruel, verbose, a show-off. I have been called all of these. Of course, I am." -- Howard Cosell

I am aware of having had my "moments" now and then on DU.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. LMBO!!!
I saw the beginning of your post about H20...and then realized it was you talking about yourself. And here I was...all set to do my first flame out on the DU!

:rofl:
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
6. I was curious about hellbenders from your other post and found this video
They are very strange creatures. I never saw one before.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLa2K-pzzH0

http://www.hellbenders.org
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. They are intense.
They seem like they are from a very different time.

(My pond has three small frogs; one medium-sized bull frog; and has three types of dragoon-flies there most of the day; and is visited each evening by three deer. It's a good start.)
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. That is some creature!
Have never seen this before either
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
7. great sentiments
probably not very applicable to GD where folks post with a variety of motivations which may not include a desire to have all pov's represented on their thread. Think of a thread posted which was completely corrupted by opponent's criticism to the exclusion and complete ignoring of the OP. I wish this was a perfect environment and that my own motives were always purely academic, but I think that's not always a realistic expectation either.

Besides, the unpredictable give and take here is a good exercise in humility. You never know how a post is going to be received, That's the beauty of the complexities in life which is reflected here in our myriad of views and motivations.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
10. Water from H2O Man
:)


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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Great way to put it.
And a refreshing drink of water.:)
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dalaigh lllama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
12. It seems the art of debating is a lost art
That they even call the candidate debates "debates" is mindboggling. It is in an actual debate that one can choose between the clean and dirty glasses of water sitting side by side on a counter. What passes for debate these days are drops of water on microscope slides placed in different rooms of a house...sans microscope.

In re to "debates" here at DU, the analogy to the clean vs. dirty glass of water is a good one to keep in mind. I'm more apt to be suaded by someone's valid, sourced points on an issue than a general "you're a fool to think that way." Guess that's why I always read what you have to say, H20 Man; you always seem to be holding out that clean glass of water.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Good point.
We really haven't had a serious debate -- either in the primaries or in the general elections -- for a long time. We have something that is scripted to create the :15 second news highlight. And really, there is no better example of what a shame that is, than the current democratic "debates." We have a group of candidates that really are capable of so much more than we are getting.
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PurgedVoter Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
15. K&R
Edited on Thu Jul-26-07 11:41 AM by PurgedVoter
In our latest set of issues, I find myself agreeing with a lot of sides. Kind of like sitting at the counter and looking at the other patrons food, before ordering. This is a great lunch counter, I want just about everything being served.

There are those who oppose paranoia, they prefer hope. There are those who espouse paranoia, think they have clearer vision. There are those who love Cindy and those who love John.

I love them all. We have reason to be afraid, reason to distrust and reason to hope for better. They are not against each other. My left and right hand are on opposite sides, but they must work together for me to be functional.

Kennedy in his book about the Cuban Missile Crisis, talked about a general who was ready to go to war. He was glad that they had such a person, in such a position, ready and enthusiastic about his job. He also was glad that that man was not in charge.

So many of us have moments when the weight of death, injustice, extinction, dishonor, and deceit push us well past the brink of reason. How could it not?

You who are suffering with me, I thank you for being yourself. I know that all of you have opinions that I oppose. I know that many of my opinions are not ones that you will agree with.

Never forget though, that I love you guys. You care so much. You try so hard. And I thank you. Your rage, and your reason, help keep me sane in these trying times.

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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. Well spoken
I see my job as a debater and troublemaker is to crack the tunnel vision that's infested our world since the world started to get its news from the various gov't outlets.

Good ideas and truth usually stand on their own- vilification is usually a sign that the idea being espoused by the vilifier is having trouble in that regard. The exception to that is when ideas get buried or ignored.

To that end, let's see as many of the glasses as we can so we can choose which is the clearest, and let none knock the glasses off the counter.

:toast:

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Right.
Progressive discussions among democrats are not damaged by having a variety of viewpoints expressed. Nor are debates degraded by examining history, and considering the lessons of leaders from the past.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
19. Yep
Don't mess with my choices. I'll think what I want and allow you to do the same. You may like what I have to say or not but don't tell me not to say or think it. There have been too many self appointed thread police around here lately. The mods do a fine job and don't need any help.

I would accept a clean glass of water over a dirty one any day. I like choices.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. The example of the prison
is interesting, because we can all recognize that penal institutions attempt to limit people's choices. What is also interesting is how some people's minds are in jail, and they seek to impose their own rigid limits on others.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
22. On "disrespect" ....
"In that spirit I would argue that what the country needs today is a little serious disrespect for the office of the Presidency; a refusal to give any more weight to a President's words than the intelligence of the utterance, if spoken by anyone else, would command;...."
-- The Imperial Presidency; Arthur Schlesinger, Jr.; page 411
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. yet children continue to be conditioned to respect the office unquestioningly
and not basic human respect one accords another person either - but an almost awe inspired compliant deference

I never understood that. Well, OK...I understand the reasoning behind it...perhaps it's more accurate to state that it didn't take hold with me. Maybe because in my childhood home such thinking was alien. School was another matter and clashes were not rare. As an adult, I cringe when I run across the "but he's the President!" thinking





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