Pat Tillman 3 shots in the forehead @ close range by a M-16

[Botany]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/26/AR2007072602025.html

"The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who
examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

The doctors _ whose names were blacked out _ said that the bullet holes were so close together
that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

snip

The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds
to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command
and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would
consider opening a criminal case.

*************************************************************************************************************

[defendandprotect]

1. or shot while sleeping - ?????

[rabidchickens]

146. M16 fires in 3 round burst

Its singleshot or 3 round burst, couldve been one pull of the trigger from friendly fire by accident from a jumpy soldier

[The Doctor.]

158. Then of course the jumpy soldier

'accidentally' pulled out Tillman's diary and in a moment of panic burned it in case Tillman wrote about the shooting.

[razors edge]

2. What was he about to say

that had to be silenced?

[Wetzelbill]

7. oh lord, I hope it's nothing like that

that's awful to even think about.

[Botany]

13. He was opposed to the war in Iraq and was set to meet some ....

.... peace activists when he returned to the states. His diary and
clothes were burned too.

[me b zola]

61. I believe the answers were in his diary

:grr:

:argh:

:cry:

[ryanus]

132. what was in his diary? Oh, right. It "disappeared"

[ooglymoogly]

174. Pat Tillman was not only a hero he was an outspoken democrat

He was assassinated for speaking out against the criminal war and the criminal Bushitler....think about that for a minute....what is in store for the rest of us outspoken democrats if Bushitler is allowed to continue shredding our soul...the constitution....unless we in mass stop it now...and it is going to take a lot of guts and perhaps some lives...we are in a life and death struggle for our heritage and for this fabulous country and its democracy. And we must make a chant out of our founding fathers admonition "He who gives up his liberty for security deserves neither". And Pat Tillman deserves to go into our hall of fame with the founding fathers and fellow progressives.

[Duppers]

70. all clothes and personal belonging

of the dead soldiers are sent to Aberdeen Proving Grounds in MD and are cataloged by one woman there.

My husband just had a conversation with this woman's father yesterday, at Johns Hopkins Hospital where he's being treated for cancer. But he did not get the man's name. Damn!
If only I had the name! Would love to have had a conversation with her, but I'm betting the CIA took Tillman's things.

He was murdered.

[soothsayer]

25. he was about to meet with (shoot, I forget who!) and was really anti Iraq war

calling it criminal

[RufusTFirefly]

30. See post 19

Right here

[pacalo]

167. Excellent accompanying piece. Thanks.

[seemslikeadream]

3. my God

[bonito]

24. My thought as well

No words but a helpless sinking feeling...

[Missy Vixen]

4. It was an accident, right?

Nothing happened here. Really. Just keep shopping, and don't forget to keep flying.

Of course he wasn't murdered. Just like Jessica Lynch held off an entire band of Iraqis despite being critically injured.

Julie

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

5. Please keep in mind:

The standard issue Army weapon, whether the M16 or M4, has a 3-round burst setting. One pull of the trigger, three rounds go downrange. It replaced full auto, to keep people from burning through a full magazine under the stress of combat.

And no, it is not a very accurate setting, either. One would have to be pretty close or really good to put all three in the squash.

On edit: I wonder if Tillman had any CIA or private contractor knuckledraggers on this mission? That would be a bit of information that would be difficult to tease out.

[DemBones DemBones]

31. Interesting. So we know that the shots were fired from close by or by a really good shot

or both. Sounds like murder to me.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

46. Frankly, from a distance...

three-round burst ain't exactly your first choice for accuracy. Oh, the M16 and M4 are reasonably accurate weapons on single shot, especially with the Triticon sites that everyone seems to have these days, even at a reasonable distance. That said, burst is for the real heat of battle, when you want to be sending a lot of lead downrange and suppressing enemy fire. For the real long range work, you need a sniper with an appropriate weapon, and that is usually a one-shot scenario, because usually a sniper is so good the target drops and the sniper just doesn't get a second shot opportunity.

No, my reaction to this bit of news is that this was close-in work. I wonder if the autopsy documents show any powder or charring around the entrance wounds, or bone beveling evidence that would point to close range. Moreover, was he even shot with .223 ball or something else?

So many questions. So little information.

[formercia]

94. If the entrance wounds were that close together

the weapon didn't have time to climb. It had to be very close. I'd say he was fragged.

I like the three round burst because it allows the use of the sights while still maintaining a reasonable sight of the target. It saves a lot of ammo. Before the M-16 had the capability, I had enough practice with it that I could control it to short bursts, but under pressure, it's nice to have it hardwired into the weapon.

Anyone who has fired an automatic weapon knows you can't see the target through the muzzle blast.

[northofdenali]

125. formerica and Tandalayo, you guys echo my first thoughts about this.

When I heard he'd been hit by "friendly" (????? yeah, right) fire, I had the feeling he'd been fragged; hearing it was 3 shots by a 16, and having fired many of them myself, I knew he had been.

:(
I hope Tillman draws at least 1/2 the attention as Casey Sheehan, because this was absolutely murder and he was anti-Iraq - NO tinfoil hats here, since the truth is finally coming out.

[malmapus]

165. Not to mention what distance would do with a 3 round burst

Down range the rounds are sure to spread out just a bit even if just a fraction. I don't think I ever kept a good shot group with the weapon set on burst ever. Always had to be set on single and placing each shot down range.

[thunder rising]

170. Prone position...supported barrel...close range ... executed n/t

And three rounds will stay close.

[Recursion]

141. yeah, burst at more than, say, 25 meters gives a 3-foot group

that's why at least in the Corps we were told not to use burst

[TommyO]

6. In other words, he was executed

[tridim]

20. Yes, and I don't care who pulled the trigger

He was murdered by Bush.

[razors edge]

44. As a former Marine sharpshooter,

I would say yes.

I own my own AR-15, took me 17 years after I left the service to afford one.

30 yards or less means point blank for all practical purposes.

[formercia]

119. Back in 1972

My room mate was running a gun shop. He sold me a brand new Colt AR-15 for $175. It didn't have a bolt assist but I never had any problems with jams. He also sold me a thousand rounds of NORMA FMJ .223 for $50. It was a bad lot, a little on the hot side. In an Armalite, it would blow primers but I never had any problems with it. I put at least 2K rounds through it and sold it for more than I paid for it.

[razors edge]

135. Bought my Colt HBAR

five years ago for $1500.00, my, how times have changed. 55 grain ammo runs 20 cents a pop or more.

Tagging a pop can at 100 yards with iron sights is very doable the majority of shots. But that can isn't moving, nor is it a fellow US soldier.

A triple tap to the forehead is difficult to imagine as anything but a deliberate act. A three round burst on full auto would have muzzle rise and impact movement of the head that would make a close pattern seem impossible for anything but damn near point blank range.

Two well aimed follow up shots in semi auto would seem like overkill after the man was down and associated with some type of message being sent to others not to do what this person did, all the while no other intervention took place, or defensive killing of the shooter.

Sounds like the whole squad was in on the act.

Either way, for the WH to get involved in covering up any info on this is a damned stupid self-incriminating act.

[formercia]

179. Someone wanted to make sure he didn't survive.

Extreme prejudice.

[formercia]

182. There has to be some profiteering going on.

Even if you allow for inflation, it doesn't begin to account for the price jump.

In 1972, Colt pretty much had a lock on the market and were making good money on their production. You would think with all of the new players, the relative price would have gone down.

I don't care for assault weapons any more. I only have a couple of auto loaders and they're collectibles.

[Recursion]

140. Not to be morbid, but I wonder how tight the group was

when I first heard three shots, I assumed he was hit by a burst, but at any reasonable range that would spread the rounds over, say, 3 feet or so. If we're talking a group tight enough that they were all in the forehead, either he was restrained, or not expecting it, or asleep, or some combination, and GOD DAMN IT I GET ANGRY EVEN THINKING ABOUT IT.

[razors edge]

143. Thats been my problem with it all.

Check up one post from yours in this thread.

Morbid is required to dissect the lies and just plain bullshit from the WH.

[swag]

8. "In other words, Pat Tillman was most likely murdered in the field...By U.S. Soldiers"

http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/26/late-nite-fdl-a-whole-new-level-of-horror/#comments

"This must be what the Bush Administration was trying so desperately to hide behind their all purpose “Executive Privilege” shield."

[eridani]

71. Stan Goff doesn't think it was an assassination, though

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/080806_tillman_files7.shtml

Murder--a real possibility.

[Voltaire99]

129. Great line from Goff piece.

" This government wants us to spin out as many scary fantasies as possible, because it serves the dual purpose of either portraying opponents of the military as “conspiracy nuts” or promoting precisely the myth of spooky invincibility that keeps us in line."

Indeed.

[Zodiak]

130. Great link

This author is a thinker.

[bleever]

9. Have you ever been more infuriated in your life?

Pat Tillman is becoming the symbol of American democracy: shot from behind by people entrusted to protect him.

He's the Nathan Hale of this sorry era of tyranny, and we will see him properly honored before this story is over.

[Cha]

23. Can you imagine how

his parents feel? It's incredible with all the coverups that we're even finding out this much!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

55. No. Shot from the front.

Three in the forehead, from what the forensic pathologists called "10 yards or less".

All the makings of someone close to him seizing an opportunity. That someone would have to have the juice to get all around them to simply shut the hell up about it too.

Silenced weapon, anyone? The MP5S is also silenced. Choice of knuckledraggers and cowboys the world over. Also has a 3-round burst mode.

[bleever]

63. You're right.

In the forehead.

And Christ, the closer you look, the more the details point towards something almost unimaginable.

Almost, because the neocons have expanded our notion of what we can "imagine" them capable of.

[Wiley50]

68. But, MP5's are 9mm, aren't they?

This says m-16
that would be 5.56mm

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

74. I have not seen the caliber of the rounds reported.

Frankly, considering the quality of the reportage from our media, that might have just been thrown in there.

Any way you slice it, it sounds to me like there was someone on that mission who was tasked with a completely different mission.

[glitch]

156. What are the odds that a fellow soldier would frag him w/o permission, considering his poster boy

status?

I think you are quite right "someone on that mission who was tasked with a completely different mission."

[Canuckistanian]

76. That was cold - to look him in the eye as he was being shot

A fellow soldier. A countryman on the field of battle.

Whoever shot him was no raw recruit fresh off the bus from Arkansas.

We're talking wetwork.

[ourbluenation]

118. "Tillman the symbol of Amer. democracy: shot from behind by people entrusted to protect him"

great post Bleever - I think that's a perfect description. May his family find peace somehow in all this.

[colorado_ufo]

138. Story says three shots to the forehead -

not "from behind."

[bleever]

166. Corrected above, but it's still an ambush killing.

Looked him right in the face when they shot him.

[sarcasmo]

10. After what I saw and heard on K.O. it appears Tillman was murdered for

Recruiting and Propaganda.

[rockmart-dem]

15. Pat Tillman

At least Kieth has the guts to tell the American people what we don't want to hear.

[EFerrari]

22. Welcome to DU, rockmart-dem. n/t

[CottonBear]

104. Welcome to DU rockmart-dem!

:hi: I'm a fellow Georgian! Check out the Georgia forum sometime! :hi:

[hootinholler]

29. That's bullshit and Keith should know better...

He was killed to silence him. They burned his diary.

-Hoot

[sarcasmo]

37. That's the way I took the story. Like all things I could be wrong, but what better

Propaganda than a dead Millionaire Football player to recruit poor kids.

[hootinholler]

38. Makes a good cover story. n/t

[Berry Cool]

39. Keith knows about the diary being burned. He knows how fishy it all is.

I think he believes the whole truth has yet to come out. I agree, but it sure doesn't look good any way you slice it. It looks like a case of murder. Now the question becomes, what was the motive, or was there a combination of them?

[orleans]

97. from k.o. i understood the point to be that his death was covered up

in order not to turn people against the war, and instead use it as a recruiting tool.

not the death itself.

[sarcasmo]

101. If you remember the Government used him as a poster boy War hero.

[orleans]

115. right. but they didn't KILL him to do that. they took advantage of him

(and if they did kill him it wasn't to make him a poster boy hero--it was to stop him from drawing attention to the anti-war movement)

[MagickMuffin]

34. That's the way it sounded to me too

How unfortunate that this MisAdministration would stoop this low. Not surprising by any stretch of imagination though.:cry:


And to you Mr. Tillman:patriot:

[Bassic]

84. Recruiting and propaganda?

You mean in order to use his name to encourage people to sing-up and go kill some insurgents?

[Sequoia]

100. The book, "What's My Name Fool" has a chapter about him.

That mentions how he refused to be a poster boy for the military and how he blasted the war and then this. Close range? That's very scary. Wonder how many of our other troops were killed to silence them?

[Greyhound]

11. If true, he was fragged, not a victim of "friendly fire" as the press has

previously reported. Was he speaking out already? Another victim of the BFEE?

[northofdenali]

127. IMO, greyhound, every death in Iraq is on the BFEE.

And Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Halliburton/Big Oil in particular.

[Greyhound]

178. Good point. n/t

:kick:

[Bluebear]

12. "Yes, Mr. President, confirmed, you have your War Poster Boy now. Over." nt

[rucky]

14. OOOOOOPS!

If that's an accident, then I'm a nun.

[Cha]

16. Poor guy...all he wanted to do

was help out the bushit war in Afghanistan against the taliban that the bushits let bomb NYC, D.C., and the plane in PA.

Somebody's gonna make a big mystery movie outta his life someday.

[JohnyCanuck]

81. Maybe Pat didn't like being an enforcer for heroin pushers and drug runners.

Britain is protecting the biggest heroin crop of all time
By CRAIG MURRAY (former UK ambassador to Uzebekistan /jc)

SNIP

Our economic achievement in Afghanistan goes well beyond the simple production of raw opium. In fact Afghanistan no longer exports much raw opium at all. It has succeeded in what our international aid efforts urge every developing country to do. Afghanistan has gone into manufacturing and 'value-added' operations.

It now exports not opium, but heroin. Opium is converted into heroin on an industrial scale, not in kitchens but in factories. Millions of gallons of the chemicals needed for this process are shipped into Afghanistan by tanker. The tankers and bulk opium lorries on the way to the factories share the roads, improved by American aid, with Nato troops.

How can this have happened, and on this scale? The answer is simple. The four largest players in the heroin business are all senior members of the Afghan government – the government that our soldiers are fighting and dying to protect.

When we attacked Afghanistan, America bombed from the air while the CIA paid, armed and equipped the dispirited warlord drug barons – especially those grouped in the Northern Alliance – to do the ground occupation. We bombed the Taliban and their allies into submission, while the warlords moved in to claim the spoils. Then we made them ministers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=469983&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. My heart just aches for his mother and father

They have to be wondering why this happened to their son.

[Horse with no Name]

33. He was the PERFECT poster boy

Successful American athlete gives up lucrative football career to fight a war that he felt was his American duty. UNTIL he realized it was nothing but an illegal war and was poised to talk.
They used Pat Tillman like a cheap $2 prostitute.
They used him as a recruiting tool but if he spoke out...that well would dry up. If you remember during that time the military was having a tough time meeting their numbers--can you think how much HARDER it would have been if they didn't have their poster boy?
When he became disillusioned, he was worth more to them dead than he was alive.
He could become the hero of the war that they couldn't mold Jessica Lynch into. He could be anything they wanted him to be because dead men tell no tales.

[Captain Hilts]

50. Tillman wanted to fight in Afghanistan. NOT in Iraq, which he opposed. nt

[Old and In the Way]

52. Or their PERFECT nightmare.

He was bright, articulate,patriotic, NFL football player....your prefect recruiting tool. BUT, he was against the Iraq invasion, he was starting to question the GWOT, and he was probably keeping a very detailed diary that could be turned into a very powerful antiwar movie. He was on record as telling fellow soldiers that he was going to vote for Kerry.

So you got the perfect recruiter turning into your perfect anti-war icon. What to do? Kill 2 birds with one stone? Kill the anti-war icon and turn his murder into a heroic message to market their war.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

59. He was also a Ranger squad leader.

That means there is no telling who he was working with on those long-range patrols. Task Force 88, Delta, CIA military ops, NSA ELINT spooks and people from units we cannot begin to fathom. All of them work outside the normal rules. Pretty much a law unto themselves. Shit, Delta operates pretty much outside of any and all legal constraints.

Something tells me that Tillman saw things he wasn't supposed to see and spoke up loudly, threatening to go public, thus sealing his fate.

Of course, if any of this is anywhere near the truth, we'll never know about it, ultimately.

[Ganja Ninja]

103. Sounds more than plausible.

I doubt if just being a war dissenter would have been worth killing him for. He may have spoken up at the wrong time in front of the wrong people. Not only that but dealing in heroin sounds like something the Bush gang would do. Lets not forget this is the gang that sold coke to finance wars in Nicaragua.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. When he was killed, I was on rw boards having conversations with republicans

(I know, I must have had a death wish) They were all over this hero nonsense and just couldn't see any other side of it.

I would love to go back now and tell them all "I told you so".

[Old and In the Way]

62. This will shave another 2% in Bush's poll ratings...guaranteed.

The war is all he has left. If the base starts thinking about why Tillman (in their minds, the perfect Freeper) was offed, I can see 5-10% of the remaining base throw in the towel in their support of Commander AWOL and his VP of Warprofiteering.

[Hepburn]

93. Why bother?

IMO, all they would do is say you are some liberal conspiracy nut...and, hey, look....Bush has kept us from being attacked again since 911 happened, so Pat Tillman died for a good cause, ummm, to keep us safe. You know the bullshit...why bother? Any RWs still there and supporting Monkey Brains and his cabal would have a brain so saturated with the Kool Aid that they would NEVER understand, let alone accept, what you say to them. In other words: Facts and proof mean -0- to an RW Bush loving fanatic.

JMHO

[deminks]

18. Pentagon and WH invoke 'executive privilege' for the fragging

of Pat Tillman.

One of those things that makes you go - Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. What did the POTUS or his stand in know about the fragging, and when did he know it?

[bonito]

41. Executive privilege to cover their inhuman actions

And directives, when will people see these monsters for what they bear.

[RufusTFirefly]

19. That'll learn 'em not to read Chomsky

The Meeting That Never Was: Pat Tillman and Noam Chomsky

[StClone]

114. Thanks for the Link

Very interesting.

[rateyes]

21. Among other information:

Among other information contained in the documents:

_ In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

_ Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

_ The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

_ No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene _ no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

----------------------------------

FRAGGED.

[Horse with no Name]

35. And that same 3-star General will be the scapegoat

They act like it never goes up any higher...when we all know it does.

[Dhalgren]

173. This is the point that Wesley Clark was making on Olbermann the other night.

He said that there was no way that the orders for the cover up came from the 3-star level - it came from the very top. Clark knows how these things work and should be listened to on this. The question must be asked - Why would the WH want to cover this up? Clark said that there should have been a criminal investigation, the culprits found, tried, and punished and put a close to it, but instead the orders came down to cover-up. Why?

[PA Democrat]

145. "I can't recall." Hmm....Where have we heard THAT before?

And the White House has refused to turn over documents requested by the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee's as part of its investigation into the death of Corporal Pat Tillman. The White House is claiming "executive privilege".

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071707A.shtml

The White House was warned that Tillman's death was not caused by enemy fire, but rather friendly fire. Despite being warned, Bush delivered a speech in which a false account of Tillman's death was given.

So many familiar themes in this story aren't there?

[glitch]

159. It's the bushcult mantra. They pop a zombien each night and chant themselves to "sleep" with it. nt

[Bitwit1234]

26. No wonder bush exerted executive privlege...they white house probably ordered it.

[sofa king]

27. Holy crap!

Just when I think these bastards can't be any more evil, something like this comes along.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it takes unusual pull from a highly placed political appointee to halt what obviously should have been a murder investigation. I'll start the bidding at Paul Wolfowitz and let you guys argue over the other three people it could possibly be.

[Botany]

28. Well one officer cintacted the White House ....

... very shortly after Pat's death to let them know it was "friendly fire,"
so as to keep bush from saying something wrong.

This goes right to the top.

[sofa king]

49. Sheesh. I shouldn't be surprised.

What instantly set off alarm bells when I read that article is that it was obviously a 3-round burst. As I understand it, you have to be properly holding and aiming the M-4 to group a burst like that, from any range at all. I think if the gun goes off accidentally when not being aimed, the recoil from the first shot will throw the third shot wide.

Someone was aiming at that poor guy's head, close enough to see the expression on his face--and to see that he was a Ranger.

That means everyone there and everyone involved in the cover up knew it was murder, or something very close to it.

[Beelzebud]

32. Remember they burned his uniform and journal too.

You don't burn someone's clothes, and journal, unless you have things to hide.

[AntiFascist]

53. I wonder what Tillman knew that turned him against the war in Afghanistan?

I also wonder about the Afghan poppy crop, Turkish heroin money laundering, Congressional kickbacks, and the AQ Khan nuclear network and how it is allowed to continue. How many Congrespeople participate?

[flyarm]

67. or that our government is protecting osama????????????eom

[ChairmanAgnostic]

111. wasn't that obama or chelsea's MOMA?

oops. wrong thread.

If Osama were gone, confirmed, with corpse, the global war on terra would start to lose justification and even more support.

disgusting. absolutely disgusting. Yes, I do believe that our troops in Tora Bora were deliberately lamed and unsupported for political reasons.

[rodeodance]

36. attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay

......Among other information contained in the documents:

_ In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

_ Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

_ The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

_ No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene _ no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

[Berry Cool]

43. There's no doubt in my mind that the diary said something

the Army didn't want anyone else to read.

And at least part of it may have begun with "In the case of my death..."

And he may not have meant only "if the enemy kills me," either.

[fed-up]

45. I want his whole history in Afghanistan-what did he learn?-what are they covering up? nt

[Ganja Ninja]

109. This is just a guess but ...

It's likely they maintain the allegiance of the Afghan war lords by helping them to produce, transport, process and export heroin. That's likely what Pat Tillman saw and what he was going to reveal and why he was killed.

[Supersedeas]

116. quite a different story than the one fed to us by the GOP/Corp Media Establishment

[LiberalFighter]

147. Those attorneys should be drummed out of the military too

[mmonk]

40. There's no hiding from an autopsy report like that.

[snacker]

42. Too sad (and angry) for words. n/t

[hatrack]

47. As I understand it, Pat was openly atheistic, though it's been a while since I read about the case

His brother sure was. I remember his brother saying something to the effect of "Pat's not in Heaven, he's fucking dead" live on television during the funeral.

So, given that, would it be too much to suppose that somebody in the unit who was fond of the Pro Wrestling Jesus so popular with many members of the military got bent out of shape at Tillman's world view?

With the recent stories about fundamentalist pressure and evangelical indoctrination at the Air Force Academy, I wouldn't be very surprised.

[MindPilot]

110. I've wondered myself how that figured into it

Some one who is very smart, well-connected, with celeberity status who has the potential to speak out against the war AND is not a Christian? We just can't have that.

[LiberalFighter]

148. Information the chaplain received from the unit

But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."


Now why was the chaplain debriefing the unit? Thank goodness someone was doing the right thing.

[deminks]

48. The shit will hit the fan in the morning.

KC Star:

http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation/story/207044.html

Bullet holes in Pat Tillman raised suspicions about his death, documents show

It's the full unadulterated article, and I don't think middle Amerika will like this article one bit. Pat Tillman is a hero. Will the buck stop at the general's demotion? I hope not. Someone in the WH knew something. The general would not give up a star for the likes of Pat Tillman. He would for his commander in thief.

[Captain Hilts]

51. It's on the ESPN News ticker at the bottom of the screen. nt

[NewJeffCT]

121. If it's made the ESPN ticker, then it's gone "mainstream"

Beyond Olbermann and the blogosphere.

[Captain Hilts]

128. B-I-N-G-O, NewJeffCT.....nt

[GliderGuider]

54. A political assassination

It smells like a hit, ordered by Georgie "Middle-finger" Bush or one of his heavies.

This is some shit.

[libnnc]

56. That's exactly what it is.

Someone very, very high up ordered it and covered it up.

[RufusTFirefly]

58. Someone very, very high up, you say?

Well, gee, I'm at a loss...

[EFerrari]

75. Yes. And they paid off that general to give up a star and a portion

of his pension and so fucking what.

This was murder.

[Elidor]

96. Speculation that Bush ordered this is just that.

Occam's Razor would suggest that there's no need to imagine a complex conspiracy involving the President (whose people are far too fucking stupid to pull off anything like that without getting caught). A handful of ultras in his unit who despise his views, as hatrack describes above, would be much simpler, and far more likely.

[libnnc]

98. If a "bad apple" did it, then why try to invoke executive privilege to cover it up?

[Elidor]

106. At this point, they're trying to cover up the cover-up

That is, the ass-covering that went on in the military command. But then, they claim executive privilege even when they go to the bathroom. They do it even when there's no need. And it certainly doesn't look good that the poster boy they tried to turn into a recruiting tool was murdered. They have several reasons to be ashamed, or at least embarrassed.

Perhaps it will turn out I'm wrong. But absent any compelling evidence to the contrary, I'll go with simple fragging.

[Blue_In_AK]

113. I agree...

What's THAT all about? The executive privilege just doesn't make sense unless they had something to do with his death or at the very least the coverup.

This is such a terrible, terrible story.

[Zodiak]

134. I'm guessing that it is the cover-up

Rove needed a "good ole shoe" story, and just like the movie "Wag the Dog", the Shoe was killed and served even better for that purpose dead than alive. If his diary was found, it wouldn't match the story, soit was destroyed.

If anything stands up to the Razor, it is the propensity of the Bush administration to politicize and market everything.

[glitch]

131. Until there is a real investigation EVERYTHING is speculation.

Oh God, here we go with Occam's Razor again. Don't they teach you guys any other Principles?

And more likely does not discount all alternatives until a real investigation is made.

[Blue_In_AK]

136. However, as I pointed out in another thread

the administration does appear, at the very least, to be guilty of hindering a prosecution, which in Alaska at least is a felony.

AS 11.56.770. Hindering Prosecution in the First Degree.

(a) A person commits the crime of hindering prosecution in the first degree if the person renders assistance to a person who has committed a crime punishable as a felony with intent to


(1) hinder the apprehension, prosecution, conviction, or punishment of that person; or


(2) assist that person in profiting or benefiting from the commission of the crime.

[AntiFascist]

151. Why, then, go to the trouble of preventing investigation through executive privlege?

Even if it was just a "handful of ultras in his unit" wouldn't it make Bush look much better if he cooperated with the investigation? Everyone already knows that Bush turned his death into a propaganda tool, so little that is new would be turned up there unless he had intimate knowledge about the murder beforehand. If this is the case then he is complicit which would be just as bad as endorsing the murder - in other words, he participated in the conspiracy eventhough there may not have been direct communication with the murderers.

[sofa king]

164. I concur.

The evidence rather strongly suggests a classic fragging, for the classic reasons. If Tillman's stick really was under fire, and Tillman really did require his troops to stay in place when they wanted to withdraw, then for the scared kids under fire Tillman represented the greatest threat to them at that time. Even the political positions of the players takes second place to that simple fear.

As Joseph Heller pointed out long ago, sometimes it's easier for the Army to give medals than to throw people in prison. What goes far beyond that is the Rovian PR response that followed the incident: turning a murder into a public relations coup and a foil for still more Bush Administration crimes (Abu Ghraib). That's all White House, there.

As I said, off the top of my head there were only four people with enough pull to kill a murder investigation: Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney, and George Bush. They pretty much all had to know what was really going on, and they all had to cynically decide to do this.

But hey, Tillman's death happened at virtually the same time that the Bush Administration decided to burn a CIA agent and the front company hiding who knows how many covert agents. Why wouldn't these sociopaths make hay out of one little murder?

[Dhalgren]

175. According to the report there is no evidence of any enemy action, at all...

[sofa king]

181. Oh, hell.

Well, that theory's out the window, then.

[RufusTFirefly]

60. Hmmm. Admired celebrity whose position for peace threatened to undermine the war effort...

Reminds me a little of this guy. Perhaps he also was fragged.

[raccoon]

89. Don't think so. He was murdered in 1980.

I think he was just murdered by a POS who wanted to his 15 minutes of fame.

Too bad he didn't have a bodyguard. :cry:

I was angry about his murder for years afterward.

[TheUnspeakable]

91. yes, perhaps...

Laurel and Hardy, that's John and Yoko.
And we stand a better chance under that guise…
Because all the serious people like
Martin Luther King and Kennedy and Gandhi got shot."
John Lennon

"Listen, if anything happens to Yoko and me,
it was not an accident."
John Lennon

Washington Killed Lennon,
So Says Son Sean

Who Authorized
The Assassination
Of John Lennon?

On the 25th anniversary of John Lennon's assassination <http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_300.shtml>

[LisaL]

64. All of this sounds very suspicious to say the least.

Three bullets in the head, possibly from a close distance? Friendly fire?
Hmm.

[me b zola]

65. What madness is this?

What kind of third-rate banana republic does this?

Shit. Most of us suspected from the cover-up, the burnt uniform & journal that something despicable happened to Pat. But to read this, to confirm the suspicions is almost unbearable. This is how the war mongers treat the best & bravest.

I hope that every active duty member of the military sees this report. I want them all to know what kind of evil, sick civilian bastards they are working for. I want them to know who the real enemy is.

God, I wonder how long the Tilman family has known this? I can't imagine the pain that they are in. I wish them peace. I wish them justice.

[malaise]

80. One that steals elections

2000
One that suddenly increases its power after the twin towers and Pentagon are attacked

One that violates international war and attacks a sovereign state

One that bombs the shit out of the citizens of that state

One that lies, cheats, plunders for six years

One that attempts to silence opposition to criticism about all of the above

One that steals another election in 2004

One that...one that...one that...

As my paternal grandmother used to say one lie makes many.

They must pay.

[Wiley50]

66. Are M-16's still set up to fire 3 shot bursts? n/t

[Disturbed]

72. It has taken two years for this to surface.

Rep. Waxman neeeds to demand the documents from the DOD. This smells real bad. People need to be charged for this Cover Up, not merely demoted &/or reprimanded. The entire group of people that were there need to be called up to testify Under Oath and all documents need to be exposed to the public. We damn well know that Rumsfailed has all the info on this case.

[global1]

69. Will Rove or * Have A - You Can't Handle The Truth Moment?......nt

[WinkyDink]

73. Maybe PT didn't discover anything about Bushco; maybe he threatened to divulge military crimes.

I.e., rape and murder.

[Initech]

77. 10 yards away? That wasn't friendly fire... he was murdered.

But by who, and for what purpose, we'll probably never know (just like JFK). Tillman was a hero and BushCo has a way of silencing all who oppose. It sucks.

[Blue_Tires]

78. ttt

[CGowen]

79. At least it wasn't claimed that he committed suicide n/t

[SpiralHawk]

82. Chickenhawk republicons are lying about one of our honorable soliders

republicons HATE our soldiers and veterans, and they prove it over and over and over.

I hope the dems will bring the truth to light about this, and the BushCo republicon shameful coverup of the truth - and the republicon lies to Tillman's family and all of the American people.

[Bassic]

83. 3 shots at 10 yards by an M16?

Can we call it murder yet? :shrug:

[Ian_rd]

85. Pat Tillman and others like Jessica Lynch are not people to the Bushites, only tools to be exploited

It happened with http://www.journalism.org/node/223">Jessica Lynch, but she wouldn't play along. It happened when the Right fawned over their "http://www.talkleft.com/story/2006/01/29/000/67173">Marlboro Man," but he came home to PTSD and they never spoke of him again. And then Ann Coulter found out that their favorite poster boy http://mediamatters.org/items/200509290001">Pat Tillman was a reader of Noam Chomsky, and they like him a tad less.

These people aren't people for the Bushites, only useful tools they hope to exploit in their grand PR game to dull the brains of Americans. But the problem for the Bushites is that in the end they are actually people, and it's coming back to bite them in the ass.

This is a particularly important quote from that article:

"Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments."

[tom_paine]

86. This is one I am so sad to have been right about from the beginning

and oh Lord, did I take the abuse for being so.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/26/AR2007072602025.html

But there is another chip in the pile of circumstantial evidence, pointing straight at the people who benfitted, as did the Anthrax mailings, the Katrina "Screwup" and subsequent supression of 3,400 dead, the hundreds of tons of $100 bills missing, right at the Royal Bushies who gave the orders and their Loyal Bushie followers who carried out the deeds.

Literally Pat Tillman, with his unimpeachable character and his NFL fame plus name recognition could have swung 2004 to Kerry BY HIMSELF by coming out strong for Kerry.

(which Kerry won anyway but this would have made in closer a 2006 65-35% landslide that could only be supressed, not stolen, and while that works well in 464 seperate small elections, not so well in a single, winner take all executive election)

The Corporate Media COULD NOT HAVE IGNORED HIM, for the Sports Media, if you can believe that in this crazy world, would have given him a voice anyway.

So, Pat Tillman had to die, by the hand of the Loyal Bushies who received their orders from the Royal Bushies, when they found out about this greatest patriot Tillman, who saw and would not be sileneced.

But he probably never saw what was coming because regular people cannot fathom the psychopathy and sociopathy of the Social Dominator, nor the malleability in their capable hands of the Right-Wing Authoritarian Followers, one of whom almost certainly put that tight pattern in Tillman's forhead, for Volk, Vuehrer, and Jesus, maybe not in that order.

God, I didn't want to be correct about this, and maybe I still am wrong, but the dominos are slowly falling. They burned his armor and disposed of his diary right from the start.

If I though anyone was going to investigate I would say, quickly check personnel records (if they haven't already been altered) for cutouts who were transferred into the unit and out shortly afterwards. Men who's promotion rates since have been insanely fast or who's dossiers read "classified mission" many times over.

But they would have moved in shortly before Tillman's murder, and probably left after a decent interval, but still shortly after.

Yeh, like anyone's going investigate that or THEY will wind up with three to the forehead, or pushed out a window, or maybe lucky and just career destroyed. Oh God, what terrible murderous gansters and tyrants rule us now!

What a tragedy.

[glitch]

133. The story ain't over yet. It is tragic but perhaps Tillman's death will bring down the cabal.

Epic.

[Klukie]

87. Silencing a critic ?

[wicket]

88. You got it right Klukie

Tillman was anti-Bush, had turned anti-war & planned to meet with Chomsky when he got back to the States. He was murdered :grr:

[raccoon]

90. K&R.

THis is a great thread.

Makes me want to throw up, too. That such a thing would happen shouldn't surprise me.

[Joanne98]

92. His mother was right!

[bluedog]

99. I feel so sorry for her

where the hell is the outrage that this happened to HER son?.........that he was murdered.not killed in combat and that the administration used this young man....is it because he was killed .....not in Iraq but Afghanistan?.......................

[LuckyLib]

95. I'm surprised they left a body with three bullet holes in the head for someone to find.

How exactly did they think they would explain that to his family?

[Miss Chybil]

102. OMG!

Oh. My. God.

I'm speechles.

[ooglymoogly]

105. Mob rules....3 shots to the head you know he's dead...

my guess is he (a man with a big, big soap box) was about to speak out or was already speaking out about atrocities and how poorly the war was being conducted....and the mob that has stolen our government did what it does best.

[cadaverdog]

108. From the Kansas City Star article

"the Pentagon conducted a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman’s comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to think that he was deliberately killed."
http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation/story/207044.html

So where are "his men" today? Were there witnesses to what happened, and can they be questioned by real investigators? And what about Pat's brother? Where is he? Hopefully he is somewhere "they" cannot reach out to him.

[oldtime dfl_er]

150. Important Questions

I came late to this thread but have read every single comment so far. It's making me sick - deep in my heart and gut I've always known the cabal would do anything and everything to keep their power and their position and their filthy little war for their filthy little lucre but it still makes me sick. Tillman is my hero.


www.scarebaby.com

[Olney Blue]

163. There are indeed troops who know what really happened.

Welcome to DU, cadaverdog :hi:

[baghdad_bush]

107. This administration is PURE EVIL!!

There is no doubt that Tillman was going to spill the beans about Bush's illegal war when he returned to the states.

Tillman was MURDERED by the White House!!

[sagetea]

112. No surprise

Nothing surprises me anymore.
I am past gloating about being right, now I just pity anybody who still believes in these fascists idiots....

[glitch]

162. Same here. Welcome to DU. nt

[lame54]

117. if one got shot in the head 3x at close range with an M16

would there be a head left to examine?

[Poll_Blind]

120. I read the whole article...that's just messed up. n/t

PB

[NewJeffCT]

122. This really like the Mafia

3 bullets to the head of a political opponent...

And, a few months back, remember Bush mocking Jim Webb about his son in Iraq? Almost Sopranos-esque.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1451557&mesg_id=1451557

[Enthusiast]

126. And to think, we used to be "the good guys". nt

[whistle]

123. I believe that KKKarl Rove and then Paul Wolfowitz ordered Pat Tillman's

...assassination in 2004 and used the country's initial response to Tillman's death as a means of pushing for an expanded U.S. role in the Iraq War to get George Bush re-elected to a second term as president. After the election the White House spin machine began to put out the cover story and disinformation.

[Kolesar]

124. The ESPN comments on their story are lit up with suspicion

http://myespn.go.com/conversation/story?id=2951521§ion=gen

Somebody get over there and post about the burned diary and heroin connections.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

137. What a thread...what a story..A must read.

Kick

[Recursion]

139. Were there mercs in the area?

I've always wondered that...

[sueh]

142. I HATE what these mother fuckers have done!!!!

:cry:

[MrSlayer]

144. Wouldn't that blow his head clean off?

Or at least the top of his head? I don't think three grouped shots from an M-16 in the forehead would leave clean entrance wounds, his head would explode. I'm no expert so I could be wrong but it seems to me that your head would be pulped on the second hit.

:shrug:

[Botany]

154. it is fairly light round a little bigger than a .22 cal. (.223)

lots of velocity but low mass.

the exit wounds (if any the rounds might have tumbled after going through the skull)
would have been bigger ...

however the Drs. request for a more extensive study of Mr. Tillman's body was nixed.

To me at least it looks like murder.

[MrSlayer]

168. Thanks.

I always thought M-16s carried a bigger round.

[Recursion]

149. Very chilling quote from the forbes article

_ No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene - no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

That's stunning.

That's worse than stunning.

No one was hit by enemy fire (contrary to what we were originally told), and no equipment was hit either.

How deep is this rabbit hole? What part of the story isn't BS? Where were they, really? What were they doing? If nobody else was hit, the dead Afghani soldier they talked about still has to be accounted for. I had previously been leaning towards friendly fire, then a heat-of-the-moment fragging, but if they weren't under fire this was nothing but a cold-blooded execution, quite possibly of an Afghani "ally" as well.

[happyslug]

152. A comment on Right Wingers and Fragging in Vietnam.

I was in the national Guard in the 1980s and ran across some people who talked about the Fragging in Vietnam (Not about doing it, but WHY it was done). All of these people in the Military I ran across believed Fragging was done to get rid of incompetence who hindering the operation of a unit. That is what many on the Right (and in the military) believe as to who was Fragged in Vietnam.

I ran across the study on the Fragging shortly afterward. The report is interesting, the people who were Fragged WERE ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT THE COMBAT OPERATION. They were the people "Gung-ho" about any attack on the Viet Cong no matter the potential for death and injury. You had units that would pass around helmets for collection for the man who killed such a Gung-ho leader. Thus it was NOT the incompetent who were killed, but those people who would think of nothing when ordered to do any combat mission no matter how deadly.

What thing I noticed here and elsewhere is NO ONE IS SAYING TILLMAN WAS FRAGGED DO TO HIS OWN CONDUCT IN THE WAR. i.e. he may have opposed the war, but was he also Gung-ho about every mission? Remember he was in pro-football before and enthusiasm is emphasized in that sport, did he take that "word view" with him when he joined the Military? Could he have been killed by his own men because they thought he was leading them to a disaster? Could the cover up be for evidence that shows he was unfit to command a squad because his men did not trust him? This is all speculation, but it follows the pattern of frigging from Vietnam, which gives the army additional reason to cover this up.

I do NOT know Tillman's previous Military history, if he had served in ANY capacity (Even the National Guard, where MANY special Forces units are Placed), but since he enlisted just two years before he was made a Squad leader (Generally a Sargent's slot) how did he get ot be a Squad Leader so fast in an elite unit (Elite units promotions are slower for once in people do NOT move out as fast as other units)? Could the people under him view him as INFERIOR of knowledge do to they LONGER PERIOD OF SERVICE? I do NOT suspect he was killed because someone wanted his slot, but it may have been an additional reason for someone who disliked HOW Tillman was leading the Squad.

As to Bush killing Tillman? The answer is WHY? As long as Tillman was alive, Bush and Company could dragged pictures out of him, or Tillman himself, in carefully managed events that Tillman HAD to do even if he objected (Tillman was an ENLISTEE NOT AN OFFICER). Tillman could be Ordered to see Bush, Salute Bush and Bush thank him in front of the Camera, and then he is escorted out and ordered some place where he could NOT be questioned by the Press (or anyone). A easy to arrange and safe use of Tillman by Bush and Company.

As to knowledge, he was a SQUAD LEADER, Tillman commanded no more than 12 men in a RANGER Battalion. Tillman was NOT on his own looking for the Taliban (That is for Green Berets who have a lot more time in). Tillman was operating as part of a larger unit, in conjunction with other members of his Platoon and Company. Tillman should know how to run the Company in a pinch (Proper Command training should prepare you to command at least two levels above your position, of more later) but having "Secret" information on WHY we are in Afghanistan? No way, he would NOT need to know that information, neither would his company Commander (Thus my comments about his time in, two years is NOT enough time to learn enough about PEOPLE to effectively command a Ranger Company unless he had some real spacial training in that direction).

As to his Diary, I suspect it contain documents about his fellow soldiers that shows he had a low opinion of them as individuals for they did NOT really want to fight the Taliban. His Gang-ho attitude and his discussed with the men in his unit about their attitude about HOW TO FIGHT were probably in the Diary. The Diary would then show he and his men had an attitude they shared with the Fragging victims and Fraggers of Vietnam. I suspect the Dairy and his clothes were ordered burned by his unit, to cover up the Fragging and why he was Fragged to protect people from Charges. I suspect, again if he was a Gung-Ho Ranger, the unit itself did NOT want his comments about THE UNIT to be Published. The Diary, if published, would could be ignored by Bush and Company and quickly forgotten, but it could be used as evidence against member of the unit who did the Fragging (Or who could have know about the Fragging).

My point is Bush had no reason to kill Tillman, Tillman was useful alive as a recruiting AND re-election tool, dead Tillman was used for the same purpose. If Tillman had survived he could have been used even more. My point is Bush and Company had NO reason to kill Tillman. Tillman's position could NOT have given him any information that would be harmful to Bush and Company, Tillman's death weaken Bush's use of Tillman for showing WHY we should support the war. Thus Tillman alive had some use to Bush and Company, Tillman was actually less valuable dead and the fact Tillman opposed the war (if True) is unimportant, for even if Tillman made his opinion known, Bush would have ignored it as would most of the Press (and it would quickly fade away). I just do mot see any reason for Bush and Company to kill Tillman, but if Tillman was enthusiastic about HOW TO FIGHT and his troops view him as someone who was going to get them killed, Fragging becomes more likely.

[Wapsie B]

176. Yeah, fine. Then why is * claiming executive privilege?

[happyslug]

177. He is afraid that the story will show low support for this war in the Ranks.

People tend to forget that the US army in 1964 was the finest army the US ever fielded. It stayed that way from 1965 till 1968 WHEN IT RAPIDLY DETERIORATED. By 1972 the Army was useless. One of the reason we adopted "Vietmanenization" was do to the rapid deterioration of US Forces. Being a Draftee Army, the enlisted ranks reflected American Society as a whole and as Americans grow to oppose Vietnam, so did the enlistee ranks.

The right wing advocated the adoption of an all-volunteer army on the grounds the US would no longer get the troops who oppose fighting a war unpopular at home. The right wing has convinced themselves that the All-Volunteer army will do as it is ORDERED, it will NOT refuse to fight (or more accurately refuse to do all the little extras a army needs its troops to do to fight). In Vietnam they were stories told after 1968 of whole companies going in the Jungle and having one big pot party. It was so bad that the North Vietnamese told they troops NOT to shoot at US forces unless fired upon first (Many units would set up a defensive perimeter and watch, they would defend themselves but would NOT open fire any any Viet Cong or North Vietnamese Soldier they saw unless attacked).

A similar "fighting truce" occurred with French Units from 1917 onward. The French just refuse to Attack if ordered (if they did no further then they had to). They were good on the Defense, but useless on the Attack (Thus the US Army lead the attacks on the Germans in 1918, with the French supporting the Americans of fighting on the flanks of the US Forces.

This is the big fear of the Pentagon, a fighting Truce, lead by US forces that just refuse to engage the enemy. Fragging was tied in with this deterioration of the US Army, offices who did not comment their troops to more than required combat were NOT fragged, but officers and NC Os that did lead their units into unnecessary for defense attacks were fragged.

My point is the US Army does NOT want to say its Troops are unreliable. The Generals FEAR that if this story gets out other troops will hear of it and try it themselves. In Vietnam Fragging started slowly, as the American Populace turned against the war, but once the Majority opposed the War, Fragging became a huge headache for the senior Officers. Vietnam, like the present war in Afghanistan and Iraq, was a platoon leaders war. Company Commanders and up are just providing support and supplies. The actions being fought is fought between unit of less than 50 men on each side. The people we are fighting can NOT bring more than that in a combat area do to Superior US Firepower, and will NOT engage larger US Units knowing they will be wiped out. THus the Viet Cong, like the Resistance in Iraq and Afghanistan will avoid fighting larger units (Bu refusing to engage the larger units and telling they men to hide in and escape through the Civilian population). On the other hand they will engage smaller units to protect they turf. You fight the battles you can win, Platoon battles the enemy can win, fighting larger units they can not.

The problem is this has been going on for four years. To get at the enemy we have to spread our army out to get them, that means sending platoons out to patrol. How effective are these patrols? As effective as the Commanders (lieutenants and Sergeants) permit them to be. These are the lowest rank if the Command structure. If more enlistees realized these "leaders" need them more than the enlistees need the "leaders", the enlistees can DEMAND Better Leadership, but the leadership the enlistees want is to make sure they are NOT injured severely, while the higher Command wants the Platoon leadership to go after the "enemy aggressively".

My representative, John Murtha, has strong connections within the Military professional corps (Not the Generals, the Colonels who make the Generals look good). These members of the Military professional corps are telling Murtha that the Army is suffering the same rapid deterioration the Army had in 1968-1972 (When Murtha saw it while a Colonel in the Marine Corps). Murtha has come out and said the Army is rapidly deteriorating AND IT IS SIMILAR IF NOT WORSE THEN VIETNAM.

Thus my point, is the Pentagon does NOT want the truth out. In their Opinion if the truth comes out all it will do is spread to other enlistees and you will see the Fragging increase. In the early 1970s when this last happened, the Professional corp in the Pentagon found a way to get the troops out of Vietnam and start re-building the US Army (they had to give up the draft to get GOP support, but that was enough for the Democrats saw the problems with the Army and were willing to leave the professional Corp fix the problem, and it took over ten years to fix). The Professional Corp has a long memory, going back several generations, they remember Vietnam and fear a similar destruction of the US Army. It almost happened in the early 1970s but we pulled out of Vietnam. Right now the Army is stuck in Vietnam and the leadership is saying we are NOT pulling out. Even Johnson was starting to pull troops out as the country turned against Vietnam, but today's leadership is refusing. In Vietnam you had people in the enlisted ranks during things like running Newspapers in their spare time telling fellow troopers what was happening. Today the troops are more limited, E-mail and the net is restricted do to lack of band space (Or other made up reason). This is the big fear and why the Army is working to with Bush and Company to cover this incident up.

[Aviation Pro]

153. Are there any Rangers in this thread....

...who are aware of any unusual personnel gains or losses in Ranger Tillman's unit in and around the time he was killed?

[RamboLiberal]

169. Happyslug I agree more with your theory than the tinfoil hat ones here

Having grown up during the Vietnam era I'm well aware the reason many officers and non-coms were fragged was not that they were incompetent (though I imagine there may have been a few) but moreso that these gung-ho types were leading these guys in to combat operations that were getting them unnecessarily killed and injured. I always wondered if Pat Tillman was too damn gung-ho for these guys and if there wasn't jealousy at his being put in to a Ranger unit and being given promotion and leadership position before many longer-term soldiers. I know the Rangers are supposed to be the elite, but this bunch seemed to act more like F-Troop than an elite unit.

[EFerrari]

180. That's the thing I've been wondering. n/t

[YDogg]

155. KO is on it now

[Botany]

157. Thanks for all who posted

I first heard of Pat in December of 1996 OSU was palying Arizona State
in the Rose Bowl on Jan 1 .... both sides were talking lots of "junk." I first saw
Pat being interviewed a few days before the game and he would have none
of "it." All he said was "Ohio State is a fine team and I am looking frorward
to the challenge." He really was a different sort of man ... a throw back and
one to whom honor, bravery, and truth were his creed.

George W bush is not worthy of saying his name.



BTW all the Ohio State Linebackers in 2006 grew their hair out a

[paparush]

160. Famous, Handsome, Articulate, and Disallusioned by the War..

Tillman was going to come home and be a huge boost to the Kerry campaign.

The neocons could not allow that to happen.

Tillman is just another in a long list of decent people silenced by the Neocon Junta.

[Jazzgirl]

161. My brother was in charge of the med unit that received his body.

He told me that when they brought Pat in they were all very suspicious of what happened. They thought it hadn't been an accident, even then.

[TNMOM]

171. Just sad...

what is happening to our country? It's been one outrage after another. Impeach now!

[dardango]

172. Wow!!

This is unreal!



DemocracyInteractive.com - A Real-Time Progressive Free Speech Zone

[derby378]

183. Kicked!

Too bad I'm too late to K&R - at least I can get half the job done!