Do you believe that severe devaluation of the dollar is...

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

...an important component of BushCo's PNAC driven agenda in order to help facilitate their imposition of the police state?

And secondly, do you believe it is prudent to begin (if you haven't already) stocking large bulk quantities of various kinds of survival items in anticipation of hyperinflation and the coming police state?

--------------------------------------------------------------

---SNIP---

Yes, of course, with all these “advances in technology” and new-fangled “credit-scoring models” why would we need to verify a loan applicant’s income or require that he scrape together a measly $5,000 for a $450,000 mortgage?

That’s all so 20th Century!

Now that foreclosures are mushrooming at an unprecedented rate, the Fed is trying to distance itself from the problem by blaming the banks for their shoddy underwriting practices. But the guilt lies with the Federal Reserve. Its all part of their whacko plan to crush the dollar and create a police state...

Source: http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_2229.shtml

----------------------------------------------------------------

---SNIP---

Then there was the economic factor, the terror associated with having no money with which to live. One reads Haffner's description of the hyper-inflation crisis, but it's difficult to accept or understand: "No other nation has experienced anything comparable to the events of 1923 in Germany. All nations went through the Great War, and most of them have also experienced revolutions, social crises, strikes, redistributions of wealth, and currency devaluation. None but Germany has undergone the fantastic, grotesque extreme of all of these together; none has experienced the gigantic, carnival dance of death, the unending, bloody Saturnalia, in which not only money but all standards lost their value.

"... Anyone who had savings in a bank or bonds saw their value disappear overnight. Soon it did not matter whether it was a penny put away for a rainy day or a vast fortune. Everything was obliterated... A pound of potatoes which yesterday had cost fifty thousand marks now cost a hundred thousand. The salary of sixty-five thousand marks brought home the previous Friday was no longer sufficient to buy a packet of cigarettes on Tuesday... In August, the dollar reached a million ... .In September, a million marks no longer had any practical value... At the end of October, it was a billion... The atmosphere became revolutionary once again."

When citizens face uncertainty on this scale -- and the fear and dislocation that attend all such social traumas -- a man on a white horse promising to restore order has great appeal, even to some staunch democrats...

source: http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/germany-1933.htm

[Richard Steele]

1. How could anyone LOGICALLY vote "yes, and no"?

If you believe the first proposition, how could the second
possibly be imprudent?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

5. In my opinion it is only prudent to begin stocking up...

...but I wouldn't be surprised if someone does vote "Yes, and No" and comes forth to argue for it's logic, so I don't take the option away -- I do agree that it would seem an illogical choice.

See post #4

[Richard Steele]

7. Post # 4, ahhhh....

That's one explanation for such a vote, I guess.

[Recursion]

2. A few thoughts

1. Devaluation *if it is done gradually* would be a Very Good Thing and give our exports a chance again in the world market
2. Economists are just now grappling with the fact that *all* currencies are currently being devalued because their value vs. commodities (read: oil and food) are falling

Finally, to quote SNL during the '89 crash:

"We're recommending our investors move into such sectors as canned food, bottled water, and shotguns"

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

6. Great SNL quote. nt.

[AntiFascist]

8. They are more interested in war and terrorism...

devaluing the petro-dollar is now causing several Middle Eastern oil exporters to abandon the dollar. This may spur more support on behalf of the "investor class" for the hawkish policies of PNAC where we basically go in and steal the oil for ourselves. In the long-term, reducing population, or bringing more of the world population down to poverty level, will also reduce the competition for valuable resources.

[screembloodymurder]

24. I'm thinking about buying two pump shotguns.

Does anyone know how many shells they will hold and can that number be increased?

[Recursion]

25. What's legal varies by state

If you go to "Guns" in the topic forums and look for any reasonably long thread, BenEzra has probably defined what is legal for shotguns. Shotguns can have either internal or detachable magazines; depending on your state, detachable magazines may be illegal.

[screembloodymurder]

27. Thanks.

My PO friend tells me a riot gun is his first choice for home defense. He claims the sound of the pump action will stop most intruders at the door.

[Maddy McCall]

3. No and No.

Paranoia run amok at DU.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

9. I hope you're right Maddy -- In fact I pray that this is only paranoia. nt.

[Maddy McCall]

12. I think that things have spiraled out of control for this administration.

I think that people give Bush & Co. too much credit for having this all planned out. I really think that they never expected it all to go so badly.

Maybe I'm naive.

:)

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

17. I don't think you're naive, Maddy. Who can really know for sure what's in store...

...These madmen running our country do inspire paranoid thinking, as they have demonstrated a willingness to be so ruthless and so dishonest.

[Rydz777]

21. I don't think you're naive at all. Either Bush is an evil genius or an

ignorant stumblebum. I have trouble attaching any kind of genius to Bush and no trouble at all in seeing him as ignorant. I think most likely he has been the willing tool of interests beyond his intellectual grasp - interests that very well might be aiming at the outcome that calls for a "yes" vote.

I don't see anything good in the fall of the dollar except some short term benefit in making our exports cheaper. That is quickly countered by the fact that it will make our imports more expensive, and we are, after all, running a negative trade balance. Examples of more expensive imports as the dollar falls: petroleum, and all the electronics we buy from Asia.

The history of Germany's hyper-inflation in 1923 is indeed frightening. As the writer points out, not only the value of the mark was inflated away but social stability along with it. It cooled off long enough for the ineffectual Weimar Republic to meander along for another ten years until the economic depression brought Hitler to power.

[Deja Q]

22. Seconded. Why? Occam's razor.

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the most accurate one. And makes more sense than the most contrived bafflegab tinfoilhat theory. And I've thought of a couple myself, that don't add up when the day is said and done too. Indeed, there are thoughts that ultimately point to good things happening.

Wait and see.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

26. Please feel free to elaborate on the "good things happening" part...

...I'm sure I'm not the only one that would love to hear it.

[w13rd0]

4. I voted yes and no....

...because if it comes down to it, there will be stockpiles aplenty available from houses with Bush/Cheney 04 stickers on the cars they have parked in their driveways.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

11. Those types always have guard dogs, alarms, and shotguns...

...not that there's anything wrong with guard dogs, alarms, and shotguns -- it just makes looting harder. :D

[Hippo_Tron]

10. No, you don't create an economic crisis when you're already in power

You hope for one when you're out of power so that the people will vote against the incumbent. The SPD was in charge during Germany's economic crisis in the early 30's, and I believe they were in charge during the 1923 inflation crisis as well.

Likewise, the GOP was in charge when the Great Depression started and they got booted out of power for 20 years and made the Democrats the dominant party for 48 years.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

15. I'd agree with you under normal circumstances...

...however ours are anything but. BushCo does not respect, accept, or intend to yield to the will of the people, Congress, our judiciary, his generals, or even longtime Bush family friends and advisers sent in by Papa Bush. They are following the PNAC plan and we're now entering a phase where an unhappy, dissatisfied U.S. populace is about to be brought to its knees via hyperinflation -- this is no accident. It's being done for the purpose of making us weak, vulnerable, and without options -- a dictator's dream come true.

[lvx35]

13. Wow, that second link is an great read!

Favorite snippets:

Haffner saw what was starting to happen, but retreated into his law studies. Even while the Brownshirts were beating and killing people in the streets, the courts with which he worked remained a solid bulwark in defense of traditional democratic principles. And then one day, the Nazis simply marched into the Berlin court buildings and took over Germany's judicial system. Haffner was shaken to the core, but continued studying for his final exams.

Shortly thereafter, he and his fellow students were dispatched to a kind of boot camp for ideological and military training. Haffner, a Christian anti-Nazi, found himself, to his astonishment and horror, wearing jackboots, a swastika and learning how to kill.

In an inner monologue, Haffner says: "There are some things I must never do: never say anything that I would be ashamed of later. Shooting at targets is all right. But not at people. I must not commit myself, or sell my soul... Oh dear! It dawned on me that I had already relinquished and lost everything. I wore a uniform with a swastika armband. I stood to attention and cleaned my rifle... .But that did not count: it was not me that did it; it was a game and I was acting a part.

****

When Hitler's in-your-face brand of "beyond" power -- with its meanness and arrogance and menace, throwing opponents in jail, beating them, even killing them -- met the traditional democratic culture, those on the other end often had no tools at their disposal to combat the new hardball politics: "It was then that the real mystery of the Hitler phenomenon began to show itself: the strange befuddlement and numbness of his opponents, who could not cope with his behavior and found themselves transfixed by the gaze of the basilisk, unable to see that it was hell personified that challenged them."

****

amazing stuff!

[lvx35]

14. DAMN!

and more:

In short, what should have been a strong political and moral opposition movement to Hitlerian policies, meekly acceded to the destruction of their country's institutions of law and social harmony. The result in society was a clear leaning toward the dynamic, muscular policies advocated by the Nazis, and a seething "anger and disgust with the cowardly treachery of their own leadership."

w-o-w

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

16. It is a good read...

...And I've probably posted that link 50 times since being a DU member. I'm embarrassed to admit I have yet to get a hold of Haffner's book and read it. Something I've been meaning to do for three years.

[lvx35]

18. Its a good site too. I'm poking around the articles now.

One for the bookmarks list.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

19. Crisis Papers has lots of great stuff -- a definite bookmark. nt.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

20. Kicking to mark

to read more when I get home from work.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

23. Kick for larger sample. nt.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

28. Kick for larger sample. nt.