Absurd Outrage: Michael Vicks

[proud2BlibKansan]

27 July 2007

It’s been interesting to watch everyone from animal cruelty people to Bill O’Reilly tear their hair, rend the garments and beat their chest all while howling with indignation over Atlanta Falcon quarterback Michael Vicks indictment for illegal dog fighting activity. Now, I do not support dog fighting, cockfighting or any other form of cruelty to animals. But I find the hypocritical hysteria a little appalling.

The ones on the right are particularly interesting to watch. They are the same ones who support the death penalty, torture, holding people without civil rights, and a war that has now needlessly killed 3,700 American military and wounded tens of thousands more, some horrifically. Their opinion of Iraqi’s must be somewhat less then of dogs because they approve of a President and his administration whose actions have resulted in the deaths of over 700,000 Iraqi civilians, driving another four million from their homes, half of those from their country. They say if they withdraw they will spark genocide and ethnic cleansing. What is the magic number for genocide? One half million, one million I think we are there. As far as ethnic cleansing the Bush administration has and is supporting a puppet government that works in cooperation with Shi militia to do just that.

Sectarian violence was not a problem that started not with the Samarra mosque bombing but, while John Negroponte was Ambassador in Iraq. Negroponte earned his spurs as the Ambassador to Honduras under Reagan providing funding, weapons and training to Contra death squads in El Salvador and Nicaragua. Indeed he spoke in Iraq of using the “Salvador solution” to quell early insurgency made up of unemployed Sunni soldiers. In other words hire their traditional enemies to carryout revenge killings indiscriminately against the civilian population of the other side. And O’Reilly is outraged about dog fighting.

Most of these folks think that football which trains young men in brutality and quasi military behavior day after day is fine. And the thousands of young men who pursue the false hope of a NFL career who don’t make it because of skill ceilings or injuries are to be cheered but quickly forgotten when they can’t compete. We train these men from boys to do their best to hurt each other, crush the other side, put them out of the game, teach them every day that its ok to be brutal for entertainment and money’s sake, and we’re surprised when one of them is caught dog fighting.

more . . .
http://www.mytown.ca/kelley/

[Swede]

1. What's absurd about it?

You're giving Vick a pass on personal responsibility.

[Breeze54]

2. No she isn't. She's comparing

the RW's outrage at Vick and their cheering of the War on Iraq!

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Yes thank you

:hi:

[Breeze54]

7. You're welcome!

:hug:

:toast:

[Swede]

6. The link won't open,so I went on the OP's post only.

I will reboot,and read before I stick my foot in mouth.

[lapislzi]

23. Read the post. It ain't about Vick.

It's about us (or I should say, some of us) and our attitudes.

If Vick is guilty, nothing can excuse him, and he should receive the maximum sentence. And then we should line up the war criminals, try them, and sentence them also.

[AnExtremist]

4. What ever happened to multi tasking on crime fighting?

I agree the celebrity death match the media has now and then would be better met with your average every day citizen getting the same charges, same outcry, same attention - but it shouldn't end with * on who breaks the law. Everyone who commits a crime should be punished, I think that's what more people were upset about with the commutation of libby rather than the fact he was a friend to the president. We should just say NO to criminals, period.

[shain from kane]

5. The ones on the right also support the training of vicious dogs by the police to attack people,

including war protestors.
Vick allegedly trained vicious dogs to attack other vicious dogs.

[napi21]

8. Yes they are taught to be brutal ON THE FOOTBALL FIELD!

Would you give Mike a pass if he got ticked off at a girlfriend or even an aggrivated fan and beat the sh*t out of them?

I know many of these guys have agressive personalities, but they are also coached to KEEP IT IN THE GAME!

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. My dad was a coach

and yes, that is very true. Keeping it on the field or in the gym is something all athletes are taught as kids.

[GumboYaYa]

9. this is just a tad bit over the top:

"Most of these folks think that football which trains young men in brutality and quasi military behavior day after day is fine."

I played football through elementary, junior high and high school. It is the most fun game I have ever played. If I was good enough, I would have gladly played in college too.

One thing that I was always taught at every level is that it is absolutely unacceptable to try to intentionally hurt someone in the game. We were taught to play by the rules or not play at all and this was in rural LA where high school football is the most improtant thing going.

It is ridiculous statements like the one I quoted that makes it so difficult for Democrats to win in the South.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Sorry I don't follow

The author is talking about the rw fascination with violence. How does that affect the voting in the south?

[GumboYaYa]

12. It shows a neoliberal judgementalism about an aspect of

a different culture that they just don't understand. The same thing is true of the way some liberals make judgments about gun ownership with no understanding of what rural life is like.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. The author makes it very clear

This is about freepers and war mongers making judgments about violence. Sorry I don't see the connection to Dems and losing votes in the south.

[GumboYaYa]

18. The author is making an extremely strong and judgmental statement

about a sport that is entirely untrue from my personal experience playing the sport. The sport is widely played across the south and a signifcant part of the local culture.

Making a judgemnental statement like the one I quote is exactly the type of neoliberalism that Southerners detest. It is another liberal telling them that they are stupid.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. I am from the midwest and football is very huge here too

This city shuts down on Sundays when the Chiefs are playing. They have a horrible record and still sell out every single home game. The south doesn't have a lock on football.

[GumboYaYa]

33. I never said they did.

Just that it is an importnat part of the culture and we gain no ground by making way over the top statements about something like fotball.

[shain from kane]

13. Vicious dogs, trained by the police, were also used to attack civil rights workers, and to

suppress their votes. In that case, vicious dogs were used to deny justice to blacks, possibly some of Vick's relatives.

Vick allegedly trained vicious dogs to attack vicious dogs.

[Breeze54]

15. Football isn't just a southern game.

;)

[GumboYaYa]

19. No, but that is where it is played the best :)

[Breeze54]

24. Really? 'Patriots won Super Bowl 3rd time in 4 years!!"

Patriots win Super Bowl 39

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Sport/Patriots-win-Super-Bowl-39/2005/02/07/1107625112458.html


February 7, 2005 - 2:31PM

Tom Brady worked his fourth-quarter Super Bowl magic once more and the New England Patriots
won their third title in four years here Sunday, edging Philadelphia 24-21 in Super Bowl 39.



Ha,ha,ha!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[GumboYaYa]

28. Have you ever looked at where the players on the team are actually from?

I think there are five or six patriots just from LSU. :)

[Breeze54]

32. So what? WE WON!!

:P

:rofl:

[GumboYaYa]

36. There was a time when I liked the Patriots.

I even pulled for them in the SuperBowls they played in. My partner in my film is from Boston and he is a giant Patriots and Red Sox fan. But now this disrespect...my Patriot days are over.

[Breeze54]

49. Go figure!

"My partner in my film is from Boston and he is a giant Patriots and Red Sox fan."

;)

Good luck with your film! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Marnieworld]

53. He's already had some luck

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/mrsmith/bios.html

:hi:

[Breeze54]

57. Cool! Thanks for the link!

:hi: :)

[shain from kane]

34. Brady still managed to win, although he spent most of his practice time impregnating women.

[Breeze54]

48. Oh please. It takes two to tango.

Has she ever heard of birth control?

[shain from kane]

50. If you wanted a kid, with the benefit of support, you would throw caution to the wind. How often

have you heard the phrase, "I want to have his baby."

[Breeze54]

51. I don't care! They're both rich! The kid has it made either way!

;)

[LanternWaste]

39. Early 90's were good, too. Oh, wait-- that was a TX team.

Early 90's were good, too. Oh, wait-- that was a TX team.

:)

[lapislzi]

26. Oh, here we go...

From Michael Vick, war crimes, and brutality to "why the Democrats can't win in the South." How did you manage to make that extraordinary leap, because I can't get my mind to that place.

Professional sport is a business. You are not paid exorbitant sums to be nice to the other team. Team A rejoices when a player from Team B goes out with an injury. Professional football is as far from a pastoral game as you can without actually going to war.

[_testify_]

27. Team A rejoices when a player from Team B goes out with an injury.

Not in any sporting event I've EVER watched. Contact sports are violent by their nature, but I do not believe that one team celebrates another team's injuries sustained.

I agree, though, that it is a leap to connect this to the South's voting record.

[shain from kane]

30. Conrad Dobler, Jack Tatum deliberately tried to injure other players. I sure that I could

think of others, after talking to my acquaintances. Injury reports not only used by gamblers, but by players looking for weaknesses in their opponents.

[_testify_]

35. I'll give you those guys. Throw Bill Romanowski in there too.

And there are certainly others.

But I've also seen opposing players giving words of encouragement to opponents being carted off the field, and hometown crowds cheering when a visiting player is able to walk off the field under their own power. I don't believe the majority of NFL players are violent sociopaths.

[shain from kane]

41. Sometimes those opponents were former teammates. Maybe not violent sociopaths, but

don't you believe the majority of players at some particulars positions have used steroids, and other drugs. And I know that steroids are necessary for healing some injuries.

[shain from kane]

44. Here's a list of dirty players in various sports.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/dirtiest/players.html

[lapislzi]

31. OK, maybe I was over the top on that one...

I've never been in professional sports. But...it is business. You don't think they (the bosses, maybe not the players) get a teensy bit of satisfaction knowing that a threat has been neutralized? Maybe I'm off base (no pun intended), but I would think that management is ruthless in this regard. I honestly don't know how much "sportsmanship" is valued these days. But admittedly, I'm just a casual observer.

[_testify_]

38. It is a business.

And it's bad business to maim someone intentionally, for several reasons. First, payback's a bitch - try to take someone's star player out and you might be looking for a replacement for your own. Second, in this age of free agency for athletes, the guy who's a threat to you this week might be your teammate next week!

Look, it is a violent sport, much more so than anything except maybe ice hockey. And there's no doubt that some 'athletes' are brutal, uncaring people but I think they'd be just as brutal and uncaring if they did not put on a uniform. Warren Sapp, defensive lineman for the Buccaneers and now the Raiders, freely admits if it wasn't for football he'd be in jail for killing someone. That kind of attitude doesn't come from management, IMO.

[lapislzi]

42. Thank you for setting me straight.

I am usually more suspicious of management and its motives than I am of workers, but sports is a (testosterone-laced?) world unto itself. Now THERE'S a discussion...

[Marnieworld]

55. I never heard that Sapp quote

But as a Bucs fan it doesn't surprise me. He had a horrible reputation for being a Class A asshole in Tampa. We just may see him in jail eventually anyway. I think those types of player are the exception rather than the norm.

[Marnieworld]

54. yep

It would be scandalous if anyone rejoiced at another's injury publically. I agree with a lot of the comments about football being painted unfairly. I've only observed, but I've been watching about 22 years now (SuperBowl Shuffle- oh yah!) but you find a wide variety of people in that business as any other. Would anyone think Walter Payton would have a dog fighting business? Brett Favre? I'd be shocked. You thik of the gentlemen of quarterbacks like Montana, Simms, Marino, or Jerome Bettis or Warrick Dunn or Derrick Brooks and you'd be shocked to hear that would be violent towards animals or anyone. Fierce on the field but not these violent monsters painted in the OP.

It's not unavoidable or inherent. It's a choice Vick made to live that way. He was the # 1 Draft pick in the country, an instant millionaire. He could have had anything done anything with his good fortune. Yet immediately he purchased a property, a fence, a kennel, and started buying dogs. Warrick Dunn buys a single mother a house every year. Derrick Brooks is on the Board of Trustees at Florida State. Vick bought dogs.

I really hope that he never plays again because it's not fair to the team and the league to taint it with this ugliness.

[A wise Man]

16. I'm in agreement with you

I've seen so many post here on anti Vick before he'd appeared in court to hear the charges. I thought that here at "DU" were more responsible enough to wait until after he'd appeared before joining in to the media's vast attack on a person before he went to court. Maybe there are those here more parallel to freepers than freepers.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. It may be interesting to contrast...

all the people that wish Vick pain and suffering with the people who are nothing but sympathetic to Tony Snow.

[AnExtremist]

20. Seems pretty compelling to me

The evidence they found in his yard and the witnesses vs. his career as a football player seems to be the only thing that will go on in court. Usually I try to be more tolerant than this, but what they found gives me no sympathy for this man. He'd have been in jail by now had he not played for the NFL.

[A wise Man]

29. Reply to 17 and 20

My assertion was only this. What ever happened to innocent before guilty. It is the media that went on attack towards Vick (ie.CNN,CNBC,FOX,MSN,WSB,ATLANTA JOURNAL,790 THE ZONE,WSB,WGN, HERE IN ATLANTA CHANNEL 2,5,11,36,46,69) before even they heard the charges. If all that energy went towards one person no matter what he or she had done went towards Bush's distruction of America and the world, "DAMMIT WE WOULDN'T BE IN THIS MESS WE ARE IN NOW". This isn't about Vick, it's about right and wrong and how to get someone.

[Vinca]

21. Guess it was all the dog bodies on his property that caused us to

go a little nuts. I'm sure he's a sweet guy and hasn't electrocuted all that many poor mutts. Anyone here want to send their pet to the Vick Kennel while they go on vacation? He has, after all, apologized to his momma.

[_testify_]

25. The last paragraph of the OP

The last paragraph of the OP would lead you to believe that football is the root of Vick's brutality towards dogs. I'm sorry, but that lack of conscience and empathy for another living thing can't be taught on any field. Not even the battlefield.

[LanternWaste]

37. I've read the indictments and my opinion has been formed and so what?

I've fully read the indictments (have you?) and my opinion has been formed, and so what? Does my opinion affect his trial, or the jury, or the judge in any way? Will my opinion affect his sentencing in any way?

I'm all for innocent until proven guilty. It's a great and beautiful way to run a system of justice and courts. But I'm not a court of law, so innocent before proven guilty is simply irrelevant.

And yeah... I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction action animal abuse. But again, how is it relevant to ANYONE other than myself? How does my opinion, regardless of whether it ends up being right or not affect anything or anyone else?

And... How is an assumption an attack?

[Anita Garcia]

47. Agreed

When Tucker C laughed and said he liked hearing the protesters, I thought, wait, what?
And, it is already a little tiresome.
But that's entertainment for you: death smelling kitty, Vick and astronauts.
I guess I need more cow bell.

[dorkulon]

52. Did you withhold judgment on Scooter Libby?

Or are you now convinced of the innocence of OJ Simpson?

[Marnieworld]

56. nope

If you read the subpoena you will know why so many are upset. It's not a conviction but it's a damning list of findings of fact by a federal grand jury- not just a rumor.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick1.html

Names of dogs, dates of fights, dates when he purchased the dogs, it was his property that he paid for additions to house the operations, carcasess and equipment. Lots of verifiable support and then the details of the barbaric ways the dogs were treated and you can see why so many here are "Anti-Vick."

His appearance in court gave no new information so why would anyone have that affect their opinion at all?

[malaise]

I agree 100%

I'd like to see this outrage directed against Bushco.

[dorkulon]

40. I imagine that if Vick had been torturing and killing humans,

it would be much bigger news and would elicit much more outrage. Even from Republicans.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. No, he'd be the President. n/t

[mzmolly]

43. Yikes, we should ALL be angry about what Michael Vick has done to poor innocent animals.

My husband played football, he has yet to hang, drown or beat a dog to death.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. My LTTE on the topic.

I find the news to be an interesting reflection of our society’s values.

Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick and his associates have been indicted as part of a 72-month long dog fighting operation. According to the prosecutor, the organizers raised pit bull puppies and trained them to fight one another. The losing dogs (perhaps dozens) were destroyed. If convicted, Vick and his associates could face six years in jail and $350,000 in fines.

In other news, in the last 50 months, U.S. President George W. Bush and his associates have sent 3,630 soldiers to die in Iraq, 544 in the last 24 weeks alone — all on a fraudulent basis. Bush anticipates spending August on another pleasant vacation at his ranch in Crawford. No indictments are expected.

Perhaps, just perhaps, we could better direct some of our outrage. Three thousand six hundred thirty people is equivalent to the entire population of Montesano (wa).

The Iraq war will only end as a result of impeachment.

http://www.thedailyworld.com/articles/2007/07/23/opinion/letters_to_the_editor/01opinion.txt