Did Bush Admin Order Tillman Murdered to Silence Him?

[kpete]

July 27, 2007 at 14:02:16

Did Bush Admin Order Tillman Murdered to Silence Him?

by Rob Kall Page 1 of 2 page(s)

http://www.opednews.com

This article is developing. Rather than wait until it is "finished", it will be updated periodically.

New releases of information suggest that this may have been the case. Tillman, a courageous, patriotic pro football hero was coming out against the war. If he spoke out to the media, attacking the war and the Bush administration it would have been devastating to US support for the Iraq war and the 2004 campaigns of George W. Bush and his Republican supporters. Tillman, if he'd returned home from his tour of duty, only to get on the speaking stump, opposing the war and supporting John Kerry and his Democratic fellow candidates, could have made a huge difference.

Now, AP, in an article with a strangely weak, non-descript headline article, reports that Tillman may have been intentionally killed. The military has finally released a 2300+ page report which provides what appears, to this writer, to be clear evidence that this coverup went beyond just hiding the fact that Tillman was not killed by enemy fire, but fare worse, horrifically, that he was very likely intentionally killed by US fire and that this crime was then covered up, very likely with the decision made to cover up at the highest levels.

.................

The evidence points directly to it and the motivation is clear - Tillman abandoned a lucrative career in pro-football immediately after 9/11 because he felt a rampaging patriotic urge to defend his country, and became a poster child for the war on terror as a result. But when he discovered that the invasion of Iraq was based on a mountain of lies and deceit and had nothing to do with defending America, he became infuriated and was ready to return home to become an anti-war hero.

As far back as March 2003, immediately after the invasion, Tillman famously told his comrade Spc. Russell Baer, "You know, this war is so fucking illegal," and urged his entire platoon to vote against Bush in the 2004 election. Far from the gung-ho gruff stereotype attributed to him, Tillman was actually a fiercely intellectual man with the courage of his convictions firmly in place.


http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_rob_kall_070727_did_bush_admin_order.htm

[seemslikeadream]

1. and urged his entire platoon to vote against Bush in the 2004 election

oh no we can not have that, we will not have that.

[liberal N proud]

2. WOW!

[cynatnite]

3. No evidence to support this theory...

more likely, his fellow soldiers murdered him rather than the friendly fire story they're telling.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

7. Please explain why his fellow soldiers murdering him is a more likely scenario?

[cynatnite]

9. Um...they were there...

I haven't seen anything to convince me that the bush administration ordered his death. Not saying they wouldn't, but I'm weird about wanting to see evidence to support an accusation.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Why is the Bush administration covering it up?

That's rather suspicious.

[cynatnite]

13. I was explaining why I'm not ready to believe the assertion of this article n/t

[USMC_Liberal]

166. You couldn't cover up something like this

The other Rangers wouldn't participate.

If a lot of the other Rangers that were present started getting bumped off, then that would make me wonder.


Walt

[me b zola]

223. And yet Pat's fellow Rangers participated in the cover-up

Who do you think burned Pat's uniform & journal? Do you think that General whats-his-name flew in to destroy evidence himself?

[slj0101]

23. See my response below.

The coverup of his death, as I see it, was PR. Can't have your supposed Real American Hero's death be in vain.

[Exiled in America]

30. Occam's razor.

The simplest explanation is that it would be a horrible scandal for the military to have one of its own intentionally shot by another officer, particularly if it was some way seen as connected to his outspoken views.

The Bush administration would be likely to attempt to hide the details for that reason alone. No grander conspiracy is needed... however if concrete evidence pointed to something more sinister, of course I would be interested in that.

I have no evidence to support that idea either, I'm just saying that it is a simpler, and more plausible guess that requires less questions to be answered and less leaps in logic. There are plenty of alternative plausible explanations for a cover up.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. I disagree.

If it were true, I think they'd cover up other cases of friendly fire, and they wouldn't keep stonewalling after it was found out to be friendly fire.

No, I think Occam's Razor, in this case, says Tillman was murdered. And the Bush admin knows an awful lot more about it then we do, so they knew Tillman was murdered.

Do I think Bush ordered it? No, but at this point it doesn't matter. Tillman could have been murdered over money, or a jealous lover, or recruitment, or whatever. If Bush covered up his murder, and it sure as hell looks like he did, then that would make Bush complicit with the crime. Like one mobster helping another hide the body. Only one guy may have done it, but they're both guilty of the murder.

[Exiled in America]

48. We don't disagree like you think.

Other cases of friendly fire didn't result in famous people being killed. Hence no need to cover up because it wouldn't get much attention. This one would.

I agree that it is easier to believe Tillman was murdered. However, it is not easier to believe that he was murdered as part of a grand and multi-layered conspiracy orchestrated by the administration and carried out by numerous co-conspirators from the white house all the way down to the platoon.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. But friendly fire killings get plenty of attention.

Even when they're not famous.

Furthermore, this happened when Bush was getting 90% approval ratings, so they didn't need to cover it up.

"However, it is not easier to believe that he was murdered as part of a grand and multi-layered conspiracy orchestrated by the administration and carried out by numerous co-conspirators from the white house all the way down to the platoon."

It doesn't matter if it was orchestrated by the admin, if they helped cover it up that means they're complicit.

[ljm2002]

77. It doesn't require...

...a "grand a multi-layered conspiracy". He was in a Special Forces unit. If Ollie North taught us anything, it's that the White House can easily keep a cadre of loyalists at their beck and call -- and they don't all have to be in DC.

I'm not saying it was one way or the other, just trying to point out that it would not require a big complex setup, just a good trustworthy loyalist properly positioned, and one person to give the order.

[eridani]

85. Very easy to imagine a gung ho Special Forces guy--

--getting really pissed at Tillman for dissing our Sociopath in Chief.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

173. exactly my point, but yours was more concise and accurate.

and don't ignore a gung ho officer making a "suggestion", either.

[jberryhill]

92. "Other cases of friendly fire didn't result in famous people being killed."

Glenn Miller.

[Adsos Letter]

116. Have they ever proved Glenn Miller was a subject of friendly fire?...

...I thought he simply disappeared over the Channel. :shrug:

[madhoosier]

149. Glenn Miller's plane flew under bombers whose targets had been covered in clouds

so they couldn't drop their bombs. On the way back to their bases they dropped their bombs in the English channel and Miller's plane happened to be below them and was taken out by a bomb.

Uncle Sam covered it up for 50 years.

[Adsos Letter]

198. Thanks for that...

I had never heard that they had solved it, but it looks like the record of the RAF Flight Navigator that "a small, single-engine plane was observed spiraling into the water" (or words to that effect) pretty well fills in the blanks.

[Progressive_In_NC]

185. They embellished Jessica Lynch who was taken as a hostage and made her look heroic

when in fact, she testified that she was found bound and gagged. The official Pentagon story was that she bravely fought her captors or something like that. The Pentagon does it all the time IMO.


============================================
Lynch's rescue came as the U.S. advance toward Baghdad had stalled. An anonymous leak portrayed her as fighting until the end, emptying her gun before being taken captive. Appearing before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee last week, she testified that she was not "the little girl Rambo from the hills of West Virginia who went down fighting." In truth, she did not get off a single shot.

[glitch]

38. Only applies when comparing two or more equally likely theories. Does NOT apply to complex actions

especially those obviously agenda-driven.

The constant misuse of Occam's Razor is really irritating.

[Exiled in America]

47. Thank you for only amplifying my point.

Occam's razor, and this is my area of education and knowledge, was suggested in relation to any phenomenon.

It does not only apply when comparing two more more equally likely theories. It is a principle for evaluating information based on likelihood. Suggesting that the conclusion we should draw from tillman's death is that bush ordered him killed requires massively more things to be true and has and incredible number of dependencies as opposed to other possibilities, which do not have such intense requirements.

Oh and... you are comparing two "equal" things - they are equal in that neither have any direct evidence to support them. So, when comparing between two equally unsupported theories, the one with the least amount of external dependencies is the more likely one.

[glitch]

57. Stating something as more likely hardly discounts the other. I disagree on your bolds as well.

Occam's Razor is much more applicable to natural phenomenon where long-term agendas do not apply, such as in human politics.

And massively more dependencies is pure assumption on your part, do please itemize a few.

Simply as a courtesy to the rest of us since you state this is your field of expertise and your certainty implies your authority must be accepted.

[kenfrequed]

154. uhm

Occam's Razor does not equal a compelling case. Just by saying one explanation is simpler than the other does not mean anything. I can ennumerate dozens of possible 'simple explantions' without the tiniest shred of actual evidence, and barring an evidence to the contrary, each of these "solutions" would be more plausible than the last.

It often seems to be just a hammer used to dismiss argumentation. It isn't, strictly speaking, even a proper logical or scientific argument.

In this case we have a death by 'friendly fire'. If it was an accident motive is irrelevant.

And a cover up of that death where the motive is a bit cloudy as well. If it is merely warspin it isn't very intelligent seeing as how likely it is that it would eventually get out. Of course this is the organization that brought us Jessica Lynch, so lying is acceptable in the name of PR. On the other hand if this went this far up the chain of command we have to question who is lying and who is giving the orders to lie.

Testimony of the people he worked with would be evidence as would the exact circumstances. Barring that I really don't think we should be too quick to speculate or dismiss theories.

[glitch]

206. Exactly, well said. nt.

[kenfrequed]

217. thanks

But I think you were more direct about it. I merely felt a desire to elaborate.

[eomer]

135. How well does Occam work in predicting the actions of a lunatic? (eom)

[TankLV]

178. Wrong. It takes a MASSIVE amount of time and energy to perpetuate a LIE like they have done...

It is the SIMPLEST and LEAST amount of energy and effort to promote the TRUTH...

So far, ALL of the WAR CRIMINALS efforts are failing, ONE BY ONE...

The RECORD is all we've got, and so far, the WAR CRIMINALS have been consistently proven WRONG on EVERYTHING.

[Demeter]

89. Occam's Razor Has to Ask: Why Was He Killed in the First Place?

Unless he was the world's biggest bastard to his brother soldiers, it had to be an assassination from higher up. Only a command like that would have to be covered up, too. A brother soldier would be charged and court-martialed and whatever, no skin off W's nose, or Karl's or Cheney's or anyone elses. The fact of the coverup itself is a damn good indicator that all was not on the up and up.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

172. let's assume that Pat Tillman was

intellectual, well read, smart, patriotic and convinced that the war was a lie.

I have no reason to dispute that. Let's make that a given.

I have had many contact with military. When you get into the rarified regions of Rangers, green beret, special forces, they don't just weed them out. They concentrate on making them totally different people. Thinking, violent, killing machines with brains.
They start by trying to break them, and break them, and break them, mentally, physicall, emotionally. once they proved they can handle that, they remake them. Never has the personality of one person going into Rangers been the same when they come out. Never. They learn how to kill. When. and when to go on their own to survive. In this whole process, it seems that Pat retained too much of himself. He was a celebrity, something that does not sit well with Ranger types. He had a following. Ditto. He was popular and well known, something that breeds fear in the upper levels of officers.

While probably never sanctioned by an actual civilian in the white house, I can easily see that an overeager low ranking general, upon hearing that Tillman planned a PR campaign AGAINST Iraq and had hard data and experience to prove it, let it quietly be known that he should not be allowed to do that. And from that, an over-eager lower officer took initiative (which they are trained to do) and passed it on to a totally obedient soldier who Pat rubbed the wrong way. ("Psst. He's gonna go public. We can't have that. Stop him.") The likely result of the story is obvious.

[TankLV]

177. Umm - the COVER UP is a FACT already. That much we DO know...

Now the only question remains as to WHY.

Considering everything that has proved OUR points about the coverup and the CRIMINAL misadministrations LIES concerning this matter, and ALL OTHER MATTERS, then the SIMPLEST explaination would be that it WAS an intentional MURDER to SHUT HIM UP.

Thing are falling apart EVERY MINUTE for these WAR CRIMINALS - EVERY MINUTE - and EVERY ONE OF OUR ACCUSATIONS HAS BEEN PROVEN TRUE SO FAR - NONE HAS BEEN DISPROVEN...

[metrodorus]

199. Occam's razor!

Yes, yes, yes!

[MUAD_DIB]

150. Not to put too fine a point on this, but

what hasn't BushCo covered up?


They tried to use Tillman a hero and that failed.


Now if this was a case of a soldier being fragged or otherwise the truth should be made clear: firstly to Pat Tllman's family and then to the American people.

Those responsible for the coverup and potential fragging should be held accountable.

[yardwork]

174. The Bush administration certainly covered up the circumstances of his death.

Tillman's body and clothes were handled in ways very different from standard procedure. Why were his clothes burned right there on the spot? That's bizarre. All his equipment - everything was destroyed right there, on orders, in clear violation of the rules.

That alone has made me very suspicious from day one. And his family has been very suspicious. And then there's been this drip-drip-drip as more and more evidence of strangeness comes out.

Yes, I think it is entirely possible that Tillman's death was a deliberate murder, on orders from higher ups. It's awful to think this, but when we think about what we KNOW the Bush administration to have done, it's not far-fetched. Not at all.

[struggle4progress]

98. Suspicions flare over Tillman death

Medical examiner suggested criminal inquiry

Martha Mendoza
Associated Press
Jul. 27, 2007 12:00 AM

SAN FRANCISCO - Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by the Associated Press. ~snip~

In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling." ~snip~

Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments. ~snip~

No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene - no one was hit by enemy fire nor was any government equipment struck. ~snip~

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0727tillmanheadlines0727.html

[southtpa]

148. pretty simple

The three bullets to the forehead could be suicide or an accidental discharge. If the weapon is on burst, then three rounds fire when the trigger is pulled once. The tight group means the weapon was on burst and the range was powder burn close. There were more than three wounds. The leg wound means means it wasn't suicide and either two weapons or a single trigger pulled at least twice. This rules out accident. What's left besides murder?

[Warren Stupidity]

180. three shots to the forehead at close range from an M16

That would make the shooter in all liklihood a US soldier and would make the act deliberate.

[slj0101]

19. That's what I am thinking.

The brass knew damn well he was murdered, but covered it up since the idea of a professional athlete giving up his career for patriotic duty, then dying in the process was just so romantic. Finding out your role model archtype may have been murdered by his comrades wouldn't fly with the whole notion of dying for one's country.

[file83]

104. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Why would they kill him? Because they had political differences?

Please explain why you feel these brothers in arms would be motivated enough to execute their own.

The strongest motive to "off" Tillman comes from higher up the food chain.

Motive is everything and I haven't heard anything coming even remotely close to explaining what could have fueled that kind of motive from his fellow soldiers. On the other hand...

More than anything, I bet that from DAY 1, the CIA (or some other intelligence agency) planted an agent in Tillman's unit disguised as a regular soldier. His job would have been to monitor Tillman's psychological state (aka, his attitude).

I'm sure the military brass and the Bush administration didn't like the reports coming back from this agent.

So they ordered his demise.

[slj0101]

128. Ever think that maybe he just didn't get along with someone?

Not everything is some diabolical Bush/CIA plot. Additionally, the cause of his death may have been covered up because they needed their role model to be killed in action.

All this, for now, is just speculation.

[malaise]

132. They did not merely cover it up

Bushco decided to use a dead hero for propaganda purposes. Why were lies about Tillman's death in his speech two fugging days after his slaughter?

Why is Bush invoking Executive Privilege . Clearly Bush has something to hide.

[brentspeak]

64. No one should make that accusation unless they have evidence to back it up

Tillman had lot of friends in his unit who are getting smeared because of these kind of accusations.

[Mutineer]

96. Like those kinds of truths ever get in the way of a good conspiracy theory?

Which is why I loathe and despise the conspiracy theory nuts. Friendly Fire incidents are as old as war itself. Accidents happen on the battlefield. And it wouldn't be the first time that the military has lied about a friendly fire incident. If you want to say that he died because he believed Bush's bullshit about why we needed to go to war, then fine, Bush killed him but it's not like he ordered Cheney to shoot him.

[defendandprotect]

107. American law is based on "conspiracy" in many aspects -- What are you talking about???

In fact, only recently Libby was charged with conspiracy, was he not?

So -- what you're trying to say is that conspiracies happen only in other countries -- ?

This is conspiracy-free America -- ????

How naive are you?

[CGowen]

142. you need an enemy to get into friendly fire

"No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene - no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck."

[WinkyDink]

162. WHY DID BUSH STEP IN WITH EP?

[me b zola]

225. Pat's "friends" should have come forward with the truth a long time ago

[Nostradammit]

127. Well, you know how unpopular NFL football players are

Gawd help us.

We need foolproof keyboards.

[jojo54]

4. Wouldn't surprise me.

Just about any professional athlete has about 50 times more influence and popularity over Bush and he couldn't have any kind of masses listening to any protests about Iraq from an athlete.

That would be unethical!!:sarcasm:

[HootieMcBoob]

87. Nothing would surprise me with this bunch

every day, for years now, I've thought to myself "just when you think they couldn't get anymore evil - they just keep getting more and more evil"!

[The Wielding Truth]

102. Unfortunately, it has been the case. Katrina, AbuGraib,

FISA, Bin Laden,WMD,and on and on.Lies and selling off of American lives,resources,reputation and civil rights for profit and power given to the Few.

[BonnieJW]

5. Oh no.

How will his family ever begin to bear this horrible fact? They have been dismissed and brushed aside all this time and now this comes to light. If this report is the nail in the coffin for * and his cronies, it will not replace a son and brother, but at least they can take some comfort that they brought down a despot.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

6. Kick and a recommend...

His death is another lie perpetrated by this mal-administration. So many people dead because of these criminals. :grr: :cry:

[wakeme2008]

8. While I would not go so far as to say Bush did it

but IMHO that what got him killed, probably by somebody trying to protect Bush.

[Recursion]

11. "Ordering" can take a lot of forms; ask Archbishop Beckett

"Will no one rid me of this troublesome linebacker?"

[Dhalgren]

12. I just don't know what to say. This is so unbelievable. If this is true

Mr. Tillman may yet serve his country once more in bringing these enemy bastards down. These domestic enemies who have violently usurped the government of the United States. We are going to have to physically throw these traitorous scum out! It would appear that we have no political party that will currently support us and we may have to form one...

[BeHereNow]

14. Well, one can not help but notice the trail of bodies where ever the BFEE goes.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least.
RIP Wellstone, Tillman and countless others.
BHN

[rainy]

18. my exact thoughts. They get rid of anyone who stands in their way.

[AllyCat]

200. The Bush Crime Family make the Mob look like neighborhood vandals.

Really. The Mob killed people with whom they consorted for business or personal reasons. Most everyone else was left out of it.

The BFEE loses no sleep over killing anyone: women, kids, wheelchair-bound people with brown-skin who live in the desert, black, white...they don't care! If a human life stands in the way of their profit, off with their heads (figurative and literal in this case).

RIP Tillman. You are a true American hero. We will not allow your name and honorable service to be besmirched by these criminals and their accomplices in the lamestream media.

[RufusTFirefly]

15. I'm usually skeptical of lone nuts, but...

... my guess is that Tillman probably served with more than a few soldiers who almost instinctively felt threatened by his views and his outspoken position on the war in Iraq. People who are awake and ask questions are very frightening to people who sleepwalk through a black-and-white world.

Years of brainwashing have eliminated the need for explicit orders handed down from on high. Scary but true.

[NewJeffCT]

16. I posted this speculation on Tillman regarding the Webb/Bush incident last year

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1451557&mesg_id=1451557

Where Bush sounded like a Texas version of Tony Soprano...

[The Wielding Truth]

103. Wow. You had a feeling it was off. Didn't you?

It could have ruined the election for *.

[haele]

17. No, but it could have been someone in his company that was unhinged

And took a quarrel personally. "Disrespecting" either the borderline personality or whatever that person thinks is "his mission in life" can be dangerous when the psycho is armed, even if you are armed yourself.
Its a bit much to be thinking he was killed because someone was thinking they were going to be doing America a favor by both getting rid of a someone that was "getting ready to become a traitor" and providing them with a hero at the same time. Though I wouldn't put it past someone higher up to take advantage of the situation - or "let it happen on purpose" after some serious public bitching about Tillman, and then brush it under the rug when some wingnut in their unit actually actually took him up on it.
(Sort of like Thomas Beckett - "Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?")

Haele

[robinlynne]

24. If it were the act of one soldier; he would have been brought to justice for murder.

The others around would not have been happy about murdering a hero. so it cannot have been the act of one soldier.

[cynatnite]

26. Would have looked bad if the public found out at a time when they needed recruits...

That's why I think the military and the bush administration covered it up.

[Exiled in America]

35. Do people around here ever listen to themselves?

You just made massive leaps, stated them with absolute certainty as if they were inarguable facts, then formed an absolute conclusion based on nothing.

You guess and assume that others around would not have been happy. You guess and assume that they would see him as a hero. You guess and assume that anyone or everyone around the one soldier would know that he killed him. You guess and assume.

Then you say it "can not" have been. No possible way. It's an absolute literally impossibility... :eyes:

Right.

[ooglymoogly]

140. anyone who believes this vicious bunch of loonies that have

usurped this government is not capable, nay prone to this kind of action is just not paying attention or not playing with a full deck and further to all the people I know Tillman was already a hero.

Ruthlessly destroying opposition to their delusions at whatever cost is by far the more likely scenario to this mob. Assuming the worst of this cabal has turned out to be true near 100% of the time.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

175. nope. to the contrary,

assuming the worst of this cabal is not taking them seriously enough. Because I keep getting surprised when in the face of all logic and rational thought they go even further than I thought possible. I wudda thunk I learned by now, but, damn it, they keep making things worse.

[ooglymoogly]

179. yes thank you for the correction...I amend my post to mean beyond worstest. nt

[Old and In the Way]

29. I could believe that, but I now am reading that Bush is claiming Executive Privalege on this?

If that's the case, they indeed politicized his death. Whether it was ordered or covered up, it still a crime.

[AntiFascist]

37. K&R, Executive Privlege is pretty strange on this...

it almost sounds like "national security" reasons to keep it secret, as in some special ops or black ops operation was involved in killing Tillman. Another case of shadow government operations turning against US patriots?

[JDPriestly]

146. But if someone was "unhinged," why the elaborate cover-up?

The likely cost if the cover-up were uncovered would be far greater than an honest admission of fault and the outing of the truth. What was so special about the person or persons who killed Tillman that they needed to be protected? Or are there still a lot of facts missing?

And three bullets? Is that accurate?

[Enrique]

20. that's not the Bushies' MO

if they wanted to take out Tillman, they would Swift-boat him.

[glitch]

21. That connection has timed out - must be getting a lot of attention.

We need to stop giving these people the benefit of the doubt. Assume the worst, but keep our options open to proof otherwise.

Edit: since his fellow soldiers are now being fingered for his murder maybe some of them will speak up publicly about what really happened.

[Bitwit1234]

22. Someone posted on here yesterday

that smirk jerk bush might have been warning Webb when he asked "How's your boy?" I really truly from the bottom of my heart would not put anything pass that evil monster.

[Pawel K]

25. My Tin Foil Hat Business Is Really Taking Off Today

at this rate with all these whacky and totally bullshit stories making the greatest page I'm going to be a millionare in days.

Do some of you people here think before you hit the "recommend" link?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

28. Since you are so adamant that everyone expressing possible collusion

in this episode with the BFEE is whacked, I would love to see your proof that gives you such claim to the "truth".

[Pawel K]

31. What proof?

What the hell are you talking about?

The entire point here is that the OP has absolutely no proof of this ever happening. he/she is making wild assumptions and coming up with accusations that he/she pulled directly from his/her ass.

Do I dispute that Bush administration officials at the top if not Bush himself helped try to cover up the friendly fire incident? I am not going to discount it. Even if that turns out to be true how you make the leap from trying to save your own political ass to murder is beyong me.

The fact I don't have proof that says Bush didn't kill Pat Tillman doesn't mean Bush killed Pat Tillman. Look up logical fallacy. But since I guess you don't have proof God doesn't exist that must mean God exists, right?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

41. It is your assertion that this scenario is

completely devoid of any potentiality. Prove it!

[Pawel K]

46. No, YOU PROVE IT!

See that's not how that works. If you put up a scenerio it is your duty to back it up, it is not my duty to post evidance that you are wrong when you didn't provide me with any evidance in the first place.

Prove God doesn't exist.

Prove Jesus wasn't magic.

Prove little green men aren't watchign us right now.

Just because you can't prove any of those wrong doesn't mean they are true.

A murder may have taken place, Bush might have covered it up to protect his political ass. But to take that further and say Bush was the one that murdered Pat Tillman with nothing at all to back it up is completely irresponsible. How people like you can recommend a thread like that to the greatest page is beyond belief.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

53. "totally bullshit stories"

This is your premise. Support it or not, I don't really care... but your blanket statement has no justifiable rationale.

[Pawel K]

56. They are "totally bullshit stories"

why are you having such a hard time understanding this? When you say Bush murdered an american hero you have to post evidance to support that. If you don't what you posted is grade A bullshit, the fact it made it to the greatest page is even worse.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

73. I never said * murdered anyone ffs.

My reply to you was to prove your claim that anyone claiming to believe in *'s involvement was batshit crazy. You paint with an awfully broad brush.

[slj0101]

143. Who needs proof when you have ham-handed speculation?

:)

There was a coverup because they needed their hero to die honorably. Getting fragged would disqualify him from that.

[Burried News]

187. I agree. One possibility is that there is an organized effort

to discredit DU.
Discussing possibilities is one thing but this has gone way beyond that and is not helping to advancing our understanding of this case.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

246. Well, the OP said Bush "admin" and, as we found with the Plame case, there are many ways "orders"

are disseminated.

Beyond that, there are some panicky posters, advancing the "whacky conspiracy nuts" meme, who know this story has legs and want to make sure any conversation about collusion and cover up by the cabal is silenced.

Even though Bush himself has demonstrated he's hiding plenty, by obstructing the investigation.

MKJ

[Exiled in America]

33. Fallacious reasoning.

People who think that jumping to extraordinary conclusions with zero evidence is reckless and irresponsible aren't required to present "evidence" to support anything - because they are not the ones asserting a claim about what happened.

On the other hand, people who are asserting wild claims as though they are true absolutely have an obligation to present concrete evidence in support. Otherwise, the correct and logical response to such people is to dismiss them.

Evidence, or shut up. That ought to be tattooed on to every theorist's forehead.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

39. Bullshit.

You claim extraordinary conclusions were reached. 3 shots to the forehead signify a murder by someone that could get that close to him. The motivation of the shooter is completely unknown. Your claim is that I need evidence to support BFEE involvement or that I need to "shut up". It is a possibility no matter what your authoritarian intellect tells you. The soldiers are pawns in the Chimps game. Don't suggest I shut up again.

[Exiled in America]

55. Well since, you want to act like a child: bullshit right back at ya.

The extraordinary conclusions are not that someone was murdered. The extraordinary conclusions are claiming - without any evidence - that it simply MUST have been a murder ordered by the office of the president of the united states and his administration and carried out by numerous co-conspirators all the way down to the platoon.

You're right that BFEE involvement is a possibility. It is also a possibility that I will be ass raped by aliens from another galaxy tonight. I can't disprove that will happen. But we can question the likelihood of various "possibilities" and see which ones seem most credible or likely.

By the way, you've respond to me with a bunch of... again, since this is how you want to converse.... bullshit that has nothing to do with what I said. I didn't challenge any of your "claims" about the shooting. I only challenged the reasoning of you demanding that someone prove a negative.

I demand that you prove to me that the BFEE wasn't involved! That's fallacious reasoning. The other poster is right... but your logic here, God must exist since you can't prove that he doesn't.

It doesn't work that way. You think the BFEE is involved. Cool. Let's go find that evidence, shall we? In the meantime... you should keep an open mind to other possibilities, or be guilt of the confirmation bias and faulty reasoning.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

66. I am absolutely open to other possibilities,

My argument is that there was a blanket statement ridiculing anyone that might consider this (the OP's) point of view as devoid of any legitimacy. The labeling of others that can conceive of *'s involvement as "total bullshit", is in fact, total bullshit. I am not standing in defense of the OP, I am asserting that the potential for *'s involvement is valid.

[Pawel K]

72. It might be valid, sure

but again that's not the point. The chance that something like this could be valid is slim. You are talking about a huge conspiracy that hundreds if not thousands of people would have to know about. Do you honestly think the people that can't get water to a major American city are smart enough to pull something like that off?

The most obvious explaination and what the current evidance points to is they exploited a dead mean and tried to cover up the details of his death so they could use him for their propogenda. Is that evil? You bet your ass it is and they should be impeached for it. But does it suggest murder, absolutely not.

[libnnc]

74. but if they knew he was murdered and refused to allow

criminal investigations of that murder, that is a conspiracy. Pretty serious.

edit to add a point I posted in another thread that got deleted ('cause someone posted a link to that shmuck Alex Jones causing the whole damn thing to get deleted)

Here's my question...If it was a simple fragging then why didn't the brass allow for an investigation (once they knew the "killed in combat" meme wasn't working), try the bad apple who pulled the trigger (just like putting away the pee ons re: Abu Ghraib) and the case would have been closed...pin it on the guys in his unit. Why get the White House involved with the EP claim?

[Exiled in America]

79. Yes, I agree these questions seem most pertinent.

I don't think that I know the answers, though I doubt the answer will be quite as sensational as a direct order from the white house ordering his death. I think it is much more likely, were we ever to get the truth, that the white house had a hand in attempting to cover the whole mess up simply to avoid military embarrassment and more negative publicity about connected to an already unpopular war.

Still though, I agree with you 100% - conspiring to deny a murder and deny investigations of the murder is very serious.

[kenfrequed]

211. Ok now

Why is it one of the chief arguments against conspiracy is that it would take hundreds of thousands of co-conspirators. That really is a fictional argument.

As to the cover up, surely something must be worse than accidental friendly fire, else why would there be a cover up.

Murder is not impossible, particularly when you look at some of the bits of evidence.

What is in doubt what part conspiracy plays in the cover up.

[Exiled in America]

78. The potential that aliens killed him is also "valid..." in sofar that we can't disprove it.

What we're looking for is LIKELIHOOD.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

81. I see... the likelihood that BushCo ( the one that controls the armed forces)

was complicit in the illegality of this death, has the same probability of aliens being involved. I'm much more clear on the matter now. Thanks.

[Exiled in America]

230. You're welcome!

I'm always glad when I can help someone who has trouble with basic reasoning. It was taught to have compassion for the less fortunate in life. :)

(of course, there is just one small thing..... OOOOoooh I remember! It's that pesky little detail where you lie about what I say like a lying liar-pants who tells lies. You use the word "complicit" which implies any kind of involvment whatsoever... coverup... supression of information - anything.

However, I of course was talking about the notion that Bush ordered Tillman murdered.

But of course you know that.... because its more enjoyable to lie about what someone says and turn it into whatever you want it to be so that you can argue against it. :)

Fun stuff!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

231. And I was talking about collusion,

keep spinning that all you want... and in the tone of your liar, liar pants on fire...
neener,neener :9

Edit: BTW... "Evidence, or shut up. That ought to be tattooed on to every theorist's forehead." Perhaps you should stamp "aggressive, authoritarian" upon your forehead? Then people would know better than to ever postulate any theory to you.

[Adsos Letter]

115. ...3 shots to the forehead only prove...3 shots to the forehead...

...not that they all came from the same weapon. The army doctors said that the three shot pattern suggested the shooter was no further away than about 30 +/- feet. And now I admit to speculation: the 3 shots could have come from separate weapons of the same type...how many people were firing M-16's in that group...those shots might have come from further away.

My point is that it is useless for us to make judgments about things until further information is produced...like how sure those doctors were that those rounds came from the same specific rifle.

Having said that...the whole business of using the executive privilege gambit means there is something they don't want released, obviously...but it could just as easily be something besides premeditated murder.

:shrug:

[kenfrequed]

191. Highly unlikely

Three seperate shots all to the forehead in a tight pattern? From multiple weapons? Highly unlikely unless the person in question was being shot while laying down on the ground. If he were standing the power of the first shot (not to mention the kind of injury sustained) probably would have knocked him down.

The current incarnation of the M-16 is still capable of a three round burst and that along with the obvious admission that the attack was 'friendly fire' is suggestive of a weapon that was fired at close range on a three round burst. The recoil from a three round burst is also such that it is unlikely a tight pattern would be maintained at a greater range.

A friendly fire accident is unlikely given the wound. Suicide is absolutely laughable as I can hardly imagine a more ridiculous image of someone manageing to kill themselves with a rifle in the forehead and managing to get off even a three round burst. It's just not possible. Given the circumstances homicide is far more likely scenario.

The motives are a bit more open although it seems unlikely that Bush or even one of his cronies made the call, there can be no doubt that the blocking of investigation (made probably on the old and disgusting argument that it would be a shameful wound to the military) seems to have come from somewhere higher on the chain of command.

It may have been as simple as a right winge bushite in his unit who tired of his talking up Kerry. Or it could have been a more personal motivation. I find it very curious that among the last things he supposedly said was something berrating a fellow soldier for crying on his knees and praying. If it is true then there could have been a religious motivation for the killer.

On the other hand it could be that such a thing being attributed to him might well be code or a suggestion that he was not worth investigating since he was so 'down on god.' This might also reduce his media sheen making him a less worthwhile person in the eyes of some of the press

[Adsos Letter]

194. I am only trying to keep us focused on what we know as FACTS...

in this thing.

As far as the M-16 thing goes: I am not saying that that is how it happened...I am saying that we do not yet know as fact that all those rounds came from the same weapon. While it may be highly unlikely that those wounds came from separate weapons (only 2 would have to be involved) it is still within the realm of possibility.

We do not yet know for a fact that the wounds to Tillman were caused by a single 3-round burst fired at 30+/- feet...

We don't know who "made the call", or for what reason...

Although we know Tillman was an Atheist we don't know that he was berating O'Neal because of his religious views; O'Neals statement to ESPN suggests that Tillman was simply trying to bring O"Neal back into the "here and now" in order to get him to act. That would be a responsible action for a leader...

There are a lot of very interesting speculations being raised in this thread; some of them may turn out to be accurate. I am trying to stay with what we know, so far, as fact.

We know that the Administration and DoD are trying to hide something surrounding the death of Pat Tillman...that is a fact.

[kenfrequed]

214. Round and round.

The realm of possibility is a grand and fantastical kingdom to be certain.

A multiple shooter explanation when the shooters somehow manage to hit not just the head, but the forehead? Ridiculous unless he was laying on the ground or standing up before a firing squad. The explanation is all the more absurd since soldiers in the army are trained to aim for the center mass of the target.

I have to admit I am now more convinced that his death was foul play than when I began the conversation. Thinking it through has convinced me it is just the more likely scenario.

Who is responsible and motive is still a very open question.

[Adsos Letter]

226. you're still going on gut feeling...

...because the facts are not yet determined. If soldiers are trained to aim for body mass (I admit they are, having been one) then we'll have to find an explanation for the percentage of gunshot wounds to the head experienced in combat. It is a smaller percentage of wounds than body wounds, but still...

Multiple shooters is no more ridiculous than making the assumption that it was murder because the DoD is trying to cover things up.

You make the assumption the shooting was intentional...it is just as possible for 2 shooters to have struck him in the forehead without their actions being a coordinated attempt to murder Pat Tillman.

I don't know what happened, I wasn't there. Neither were you, as far as I know. I haven't yet heard the news today so I don't know if any further revelations have been made regarding the case; however, until the facts are determined by an open inquiry everyone is just speculating.

[Telly Savalas]

138. I believe UFO's were involved in Tillman's death.

Do you have any proof to the contrary?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pawel K]

50. Yes, thank you for reporting me to a mod, I guess it takes great courage to do that

much more courage than actually addressing the point.

[AntiFascist]

58. OK I'll address the point...

can this be "total bullshit" if mainstream people like Keith Olbermann are questioning who high up in the military ranks may be responsible for Tillman's murder coverup? Why are coverups so intriguing in the first place?

[Pawel K]

68. But you have to question why those cover ups took place

The most obvious conclusion here is that the cover ups took place so that Bush could use Tillman as a propogenda tool. That's what the evidance clearly suggests.

But there is absolutely no evidance at this time Bush was behind the actual murder. And making such a claim without any evidance to support it is irresponsible. So next time think before you recommend something to the greatest page and be a little more responsible about it. Having this kind of shit here makes us look no better than free republic with their crazy Clinton conspiracy theories. Just because its FR and Fox News do it doesn't mean we should be doing it too.

[AntiFascist]

75. except for the clear fact that....

using Tillman as a propaganda tool would have been a good reason for comitting the murder in the first place, taken together with the fact that Tillman was beginning to question the war and may have been taking notes in preparation to speak to anti-war groups. Any prosecutorial effort would consider all of this evidence together, and it doesn't require tin foil. Why was his diary burned afterward? This would indicate intent directed at the potential icon status of Tillman.

[Exiled in America]

80. "intent directed at the potential icon status of Tillman."

I agree this is important and we have to try to stay open-minded to all the evidence.

All I can say with certainty right now is that I don't know what happened. :(

[lyonn]

110. The program brought out the fact that Tillman was shot at

a distance of approximately 100 ft. There were 3 bullets in his head spaced close together. All his clothes and personal effects including writings were burned. Does anyone remember hearing that? Really strange. Someone stated it would have been hard to not identify his uniform, gun, etc. from that distance.

[Adsos Letter]

118. If you can find a way to review the transcript of the

House investigation into the accuracy of battlefield reporting, which was chaired by Henry Waxman (4/24/07) I think you will find the statements you are looking for. Jessica Lynch, the Tillman family, members of Tillman's unit, and DoD officials were all present at the hearing.

C-SPAN lists the program in their video database, but the link is now invalid.

[Flying Dream Blues]

151. Not to quibble, but I believe it was 10 yards, or 30 ft which was quoted by KO. nt

[Adsos Letter]

117. yes, it can...

simply in the case of logical fallacy I think that would qualify as the "argument from authority"... :shrug:

[HCE SuiGeneris]

44. General Clark must be another whacko...

According to Daily Kos , Wesley Clark appeared on Keith Olbermann's Countdown last night and stated that "the orders came from the very top" to murder Tillman as he was a political symbol and his opposition to the war in Iraq would have rallied the population around supporting immediate withdrawal.

[Pawel K]

49. I watched countdown last night and I don't recall seeing clark

in addition I can't find anything about it on today's dailykos page. Where did Clark say that? Post the full transcript or at least a link to the article from Kos.

[libnnc]

52. Here.

He was on KO. I watched it myself.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1454095

[Pawel K]

59. Thanks for the link. nt

[Blue_In_AK]

62. I believe he was referring to the cover-up

not the actual murder -- but I have no doubt that he was murdered, probably for his anti-Iraq war sentiments.

[Pawel K]

63. From libnnc's link: He never said that

You are lying to yourself. You want this to be so true you will misrepresent what Wes Clark is saying. Snap out of it.

He said its pretty clear the orders came from the very top not to murder tillman but instead to cover it up so they could save face politically and use Tilman as a propogenda tool. And what Clark is saying is exactly what the evidance suggests.

There is no evidance out there to say Bush or anyone else in the white house for that matter ordered the murder, making this claim repeatadly and having people like you recommend it is obsurd.

[brentspeak]

71. You are propagating B.S.

Clark never said that Tillman was murdered on orders from high on up. And he didn't say that Tillman was definitely murdered, just that it was possible. And Daily Kos is not a news source (plus, I doubt you even read that bizarre accusation on Daily Kos).

[Bluzmann57]

84. Hey, can I get a piece of the action?

When Tillman got killed, there were a great number of people in here, and elsewhere (Ted Rall) who thought that he was some kind of right wing freakazoid. Now the bushies murdered him? You can't have it both ways people. I need proof. Not innuendos and hearsay.

[treestar]

155. You would make a terrible cop or detective

Since you will not let an issue be raised, the proof would have to be delivered to you before you'd make the arrest. You'd sit in your office and wait for the proof to be delivered.

Come to think of it, you'd make a terrible anything. No brainstorming allowed. Any company you are managing must be managed and all problems dealt with by some proven method that has been used before and approved by those in authority.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

169. Thank you treestar...

for understanding my disenchantment with people shutting off dialog when they do not have all the information.

[elehhhhna]

176. Bush invoking Exec. Priv. on this matter makes it stink really bad. 'splain THAT.

[closeupready]

27. No, I don't think so.

Most of us here know that Bush has stated that he doesn't care about opinion polls or what anyone thinks of him, which claim has been substantiated by much of what he's done. So, on THAT level (the desire to silence critics), this theory doesn't wash because he'd have to really, really care, and he just wouldn't care sufficiently.

[dragonlady]

42. Bush didn't care but Karl Rove did

Karl's job was to win/steal the 2004 election, and if Tillman had turned enough people against the war at that time, the polls before the election would have showed it. Stealing an election is possible only if it's close enough that reasons can be conjured up to explain the difference between the polls and the reported votes (last-minute terror alert, visits by the popular Bush to crucial states, etc.). They didn't want things to get too far out of hand.

[spotbird]

32. Interesting SI story from last year

You didn't talk politics over there, not while you were still in the sandbox. But that night, as Pat watched another orange and white flash-bang shudder the distant town, he shook his head and said, "This war is so f------ illegal." Russ, for the first time, realized how wobbly a tightrope Pat was walking between his integrity and his duty. Even later in their 3 1/2-month deployment in Iraq, as it began to appear that they'd been sent on a nukes-and-biochemical-weapons wild-goose chase, Russ never heard Pat go further than, "This is all bulls---." But surely Pat's fame and fierce independence had unsettled higher-ups from the day he enlisted. They had tried to persuade him to be a recruiting poster boy in Washington rather than a Ranger. Surely, one family member was convinced, once the Army got its first glimpse of Pat's psychological profile -- he was the one who stood outside the Cardinals' team prayer circle, the one who couldn't wait to have a mutual friend arrange a meeting with renowned anti-war leftist Noam Chomsky after his discharge -- it never would have allowed him to become a Ranger if it hadn't had to because he was Pat Tillman. Hell, at the Army recruiting office the day he enlisted, before he'd even signed his papers, one of those jalapeño drill sergeants lined up Pat, Kevin and a gaggle of other recruits and started fire-breathing contradictory orders. "Look, you're confusing everybody and being unreasonable," Pat told the astonished sergeant. "You're treating us like ass----s, and we haven't even signed up to be treated like ass----s yet." At first it was a curiosity to Pat, then an irritation, when he kept receiving orders to undergo additional psychological evaluations.

Everybody who thought he'd enlisted purely out of patriotism, they missed reality by a half mile. Sure, he loved America and felt compelled to fight for it after more than 2,600 people at the World Trade Center were turned to dust. But his decision sprang from soil so much richer than that. The foisting of all the dirty work onto people less fortunate than an NFL safety clawed at his ethics. He had uncles and grandfathers on both sides who'd fought in World War II and the Korean War, one who'd taken a bullet in his chest, another who'd lost a finger and one who'd been the last to leap out of a plane shot from the sky. On a level deeper than almost any other American, he'd reaped the reward of those sacrifices: the chance his country afforded him to be himself, all of himself.

He yearned to have a voice one day that would carry, possibly in politics, and he was far from the sort of man who could send others into a fire that he had skirted. His relentless curiosity, his determination to live his life as if it were a book that would hold its reader to the last word, pushed him into the flames as well. The history of man is war, he told a family member, so how, without sampling it, could he ever know man or himself completely?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/09/05/tillman0911/2.html

[cynatnite]

34. Bookmarking for reading later...thanks n/t

[spotbird]

43. Another clip

Yes, it was true, she and Pat had always been fascinated by conspiracy theories, the back-room machinations of power and money. But what was she supposed to do when, Mary says, an Army coroner told her that he did not sign an initial casualty report that stated her son had been killed by enemy fire, because he knew the enemy at that distance wasn't skilled enough to send three bullets that close together through a man's forehead? How was she supposed to let go when so many lapses in judgment and standard procedure seemed to have occurred? How was she supposed to respond when she learned that the testimony of soldiers was changing, that culpability was vanishing, that Pat's uniform and body armor had been burned within three days of his death, that the initial investigator's report was buried and redone after he recommended that "certain leaders be investigated" for "gross negligence" in deciding to split the platoon and have it travel in daylight, and that two gunners be punished for gross negligence and loss of control. What was she supposed to think when she read one officer's conclusion that the Tillmans, "not being , I'm not really sure what they believe or how they can get their head around death. So, in my personal opinion, sir, that is why I don't think they'll ever be satisfied."

Same link

[Celebration]

45. For sure we know two things

1. He was murdered by someone on our side.
2. The military covered it up, letting a murderer go free. That was intentional, and a crime.

Now, who did it, and why? This should have been addressed at the time.

[Adsos Letter]

121. We do not yet KNOW that he was "murdered"...

people may believe that with all their hearts but nobody "knows" it as a fact...

I do agree that we "know" the military is covering "something" up.

[EFerrari]

125. His father seems to believe it on the basis that it would be hard

not to recognize an American soldier at that distance.

[Adsos Letter]

184. And his father may very well be right...

...my post was primarily aimed at addressing what we believe as opposed to what we know, that's all. It seems like many people in this thread are confusing gut-feelings with facts.

We know Tillman died of gunshot wounds...

We know the government is trying to cover SOMETHING up because of the Executive Privilege gambit, and because of the way the initial investigation was handled.

We know it has something to do with the galaxy of issues surrounding Pat Tillman and his death (at least 2 broad categories there: the man himself, and the manner of his death).

Our gut-feeling says he was murdered, but we do not yet know it as a fact although, given the behavior of this admin. and DoD, we can easily believe it.

Conspiracy theories have ways of developing in which false premises are treated as facts later on. At that point it becomes very difficult to separate real facts from things which have been accepted as facts but not proven to be. That confuses things and affects how we interpret the larger issues involved. The JFK assassination is a prime example of this.

I have my own gut-feelings about Pat Tillman's death, but I am trying to stay focused on what we know as facts, and in pressuring our Congress to do all they can to get at the truth.

[EFerrari]

189. Sure!

:hi:

[Adsos Letter]

192. ??????

...sure...?

:hi:

[EFerrari]

193. Aka, agreed. n/t

[Adsos Letter]

196. Ah, ok....

I wasn't sure if it meant "agreed" or something more like "sure, you go ahead and believe what you want to believe, the adults here want to talk" :rofl:

:D :hi:

[EFerrari]

197. I'm not that efficient!

:rofl:

[Burried News]

190. Agree. Well argued.

[Kat 333]

205. His mom too ...

I read an article months back that explained how and why Pat Tillman and his brother were separated to begin with. Tillman's brother, Kevin Tillman, was part of the same 75th Ranger Regiment that his brother served. They were together (though in different vehicles) when the convoy left. Soon after, under suspicious circumstances, they were ordered to split into two groups. The convoy, Kevin was in, was held back (in enemy territory where the rules are Never to stop). When they caught up with the original convoy, approx a hour later, (which was the one Pat Tillman was in) he was told of his brother's death. There isn't any doubt he was killed by US soldiers and that it wasn't an accident. Seems that the only unanswered question is who ordered it. Even earlier, Before that information came out, his mother was far from convinced it wasn't an accident. You can tell that when listening to her on this video ...

http://petulantrumble.blogspot.com/2007/03/mary-tillman-speaks-out.html

[populistdriven]

153. Tillman was Murdered by the US Military. End of Story

.

[Adsos Letter]

186. And that is a statement of the same type as the...

..."God said it, I believe it, that settles it" crowd. You may believe it with all your heart. You may be right. But, we don't know it as a FACT yet.

Pressure Congress to fully investigate this thing so we can get the facts out there.

[JitterbugPerfume]

54. didn't I read somewhere that

his body was immediately cremated after his death?

[glitch]

60. Along with his diary and uniform. nt

[JitterbugPerfume]

67. that sure raised a red flag

for me

[mmonk]

61. No.

Appears to be a typical fragging. We won't know why until there is an investigation.

[glitch]

65. Until there is a real investigation the most accurate answer has to be "Maybe" nt

[mmonk]

70. Anything's possible.

[Adsos Letter]

122. Agreed...n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

91. a)He was against the war. b)He was an unapologetic atheist.

Supposedly one of his unit members said "God help us" when they were under fire, and Tillman told him to "quit sniveling".

Knowing the way the right wing Christians have been busy taking over the military academies, I wouldn't be a bit surprised that he was fragged for being outspokenly atheist and outspokenly anti-war.

[Adsos Letter]

123. But other accounts of that conversation...

leave the feeling that Tillman wasn't denigrating O'Neal's faith as much as trying to bring him back into the "here and now", suggesting that action at the moment was of more use than prayer... :shrug:

[indepat]

69. To believe Tillman's death was somehow politically motivated, one would also have to believe

politics were somehow involved in a US senator's (DEM: MN) fatal airplane crash.

[BeHereNow]

76. Count me in on that list. n/t

BHN
RIP Senator Wellstone

[defendandprotect]

108. I believe -- and maybe someday we'll have a real truth-busting-out investigation of it --

[windbreeze]

119. Me Three......I'm in on that one...n/t

[windbreeze]

120. delete....dupe...due to hang up .....

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

168. Thom Hartmann had a most interesting discussion about that on his show earlier this week.

Mr. Hartmann is a licensed pilot and he spoke, just a bit, to the low tech ways a plane might be brought down, in reference to a caller's remarks that there should be criminal investigation into the circumstances of Senator Wellstone's death.

MKJ

[kenfrequed]

195. I wish I could be certain

If it was an accident it was an extremely convenient and suspicious one. Count me on the list of the suspicious.

[Seabiscuit]

82. By now I've come to expect that the answer to questions like that is "of course!"

[Help me help Earth]

83. The last time I heard this

it was from a Green who tried to convince me Tillman planned to back Nader.

[Swamp Rat]

86. Yes, it was a direct order from Bushler to murder Pat Tillman.

Unless Bushler releases the information I will assume he personally ordered it. :)

[libnnc]

88. I Love you.

:loveya:

[Swamp Rat]

90. beijo

:*

Btw, I LOVE your avatar(s)! ;)

[AzDar]

93. What really, really GETS to me : the fact that they surreptitiously

burned his body armor and journal.
:nuke:
That act is so telling....

[BeHereNow]

95. Yes, the journal in particular.

His family should have been given his journal.
More heartless bastard activity on the part
of the BFEE.

BHN

[treestar]

152. I bet the bastards claimed it was for puropses of "national security"

They are nothing if not predictable.

:mad:

[kpete]

94. more:

Wesley Clark appeared on Keith Olbermann's Countdown last night and stated that "the orders came from the very top" to murder Tillman as he was a political symbol and his opposition to the war in Iraq would have rallied the population around supporting immediate withdrawal.

http://takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/2007/07/if-true-tillman-story-will-be-smoking.html

[PoconoPragmatist]

97. In The Same Way Jessica Lynch Was Propped Up...Was Tillman POPPED Down??

Things that make ya go hmmmm...

not saying I believe this yet, I'd like to see some more evidence...but, given what we know about the fucking monsters in the White House, I sure as hell wouldn't put it past them!

[Octafish]

99. Tillman: '''This war is so fucking illegal.''

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=552397&mesg_id=552397

http://www.thecolumnists.com/isaacs/isaacs227.html

[HughMoran]

100. I'm pretty sure he was murdered due to his political beliefs

I doubt that Bushco had to do anything other than look the other way and act like the nationalistic morons that they are.

[annm4peace]

101. I wonder what Pat Tillman's brother thinks

I watched the hearing with Tillman's family and other troops with Tillman, and Jessica Lynch..
I have faith more truth will come out.

[Common Sense Party]

105. Wonder what Ted Rall will doodle about this?

This is how Rall memorialized Tillman back in 2004.

[WildEyedLiberal]

109. Did he ever apologize for that filth?

Rall is disgusting, as are all knee-jerking "smear first ask questions later" political extremists of all stripes.

[Common Sense Party]

114. Does he ever apologize for anything? n/t

[Oeditpus Rex]

106. Utter nonsense

It postulates that:

•Tillman would've gotten "on the speaking stump" — very rare for professional athletes, particularly to do it against the current administration. Corporate sports simply doesn't allow it. (This assumes, though, that he would've resumed playing football.)

•it would've made any difference to more than a handful of people if he had.

•the Wregime would think it would've made any difference to more than a handful of people if he had.

•the Wregime would care.

[OneBlueSky]

111. wouldn't surprise me in the least . . . maybe not from Bush himself, but . . .

from someone high up in the Cheney contingent . . . or even Cheney himself . . . they could have let it be known to the "right" people that getting rid of Tillman would be a good thing, and then just sat back and watched it happen . . . kinda like that plane crash that killed Paul Wellstone . . .

[flyarm]

112. read this from 2005..

i had in my files...please read the entire article..i don't know if anyone else has posted this but i put this on another thread that died...fly

FAMILY DEMANDS THE TRUTH
New inquiry may expose events that led to Pat Tillman’s death
Robert Collier, Chronicle Staff Writer

Sunday, September 25, 2005


The battle between a grieving family and the U.S. military justice system is on display in thousands of pages of documents strewn across Mary Tillman’s dining room table in suburban San Jose. As she pores through testimony from three previous Army investigations into the killing of her son, former football star Pat Tillman, by his fellow Army Rangers last year in Afghanistan, she hopes that a new inquiry launched in August by the Pentagon’s inspector general finally will answer the family’s questions:

Were witnesses allowed to change their testimony on key details, as alleged by one investigator? Why did internal documents on the case, such as the initial casualty report, include false information? When did top Pentagon officials know that Tillman’s death was caused by friendly fire, and why did they delay for five weeks before informing his family?

“There have been so many discrepancies so far that it’s hard to know what to believe,” Mary Tillman said. “There are too many murky details.” The files the family received from the Army in March are heavily censored, with nearly every page containing blacked-out sections; most names have been deleted. (Names for this story were provided by sources close to the investigation.) At least one volume was withheld altogether from the family, and even an Army press release given to the media has deletions. On her copies, Mary Tillman has added competing marks and scrawls — countless color-coded tabs and angry notes such as “Contradiction!” “Wrong!” and “????”


snip:


For example, the documents contain testimony of the first investigating officer alleging that Army officials allowed witnesses to change key details in their sworn statements so his finding that certain soldiers committed “gross negligence” could be softened.

[flyarm]

113. then this...

from my files..fly


FAMILY DEMANDS THE TRUTH
New inquiry may expose events that led to Pat Tillman’s death
Robert Collier, Chronicle Staff Writer

Sunday, September 25, 2005

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25...

The soldier next to him testified: “I could hear the pain in his voice as he called out, ‘Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat f—ing Tillman, dammit.” He said this over and over until he stopped,” having been hit by three bullets in the forehead, killing him.

The soldier continued, “I then looked over at my side to see a river of blood coming down from where he was … I saw his head was gone.” Two other Rangers elsewhere on the mountainside were injured by shrapnel.

Kevin was unaware that his brother had been killed until nearly an hour later when he asked if anyone had seen Pat and a fellow soldier told him.

Tillman’s death came at a sensitive time for the Bush administration — just a week before the Army’s abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib in Iraq became public and sparked a huge scandal. The Pentagon immediately announced that Tillman had died heroically in combat with the enemy, and President Bush hailed him as “an inspiration on and off the football field, as with all who made the ultimate sacrifice in the war on terror.”



snip at the end of this was this...



snip:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
‘IT’S HARD TO KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE’
That’s the lament of Mary Tillman, above, a teacher of special education in a San Jose public school. She has long pressed the Army to reopen its investigation into the friendly-fire killing of her son, Pat Tillman, in a canyon in Afghanistan on April 22, . The persistence of Mary Tillman and her former husband, Patrick Tillman, was rewarded when the Pentagon’s inspector general opened a new inquiry in August, the fourth such probe. Mary Tillman says she hopes questions created by discrepancies in past testimony will finally be answered.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



STORY CHANGES OVER TIME
An officer in Pat Tillman's Ranger battalion who directed the first investigation into the soldier's death served as a witness on Nov. 14, 2004, in the third investigation, which was led by Brig. Gen. Gary Jones. The first investigator complained that the officers in charge of the second invest-

igation had allowed Rangers involved in the shooting to change their testimony.





THREAT OF PERJURY CHARGES
An excerpt from a March 3, 2005, memorandum by

Brig. Gen. Gary Jones describes how Capt. William Saunders, the commander of Pat Tillman's Ranger company, was threatened with perjury charges. Jones' memo said Saunders made false claims that he had informed his superiors that platoon commander Lt. David Uthlaut had protested orders given to him leading up to the incident. Despite this threat, Saunders was allowed to change his testimony and was granted immunity.

E-mail Robert Collier at [e-mail] .

[krj44]

124. with 3 holes in the center of

the forehead i would say yes,many officers that were fragged in nam were done with grenades to cover their tracks,but this menistration doesn`t cover its tracks very wellit will take years to sort out the criminality.the prescott coup,poppy on the grassy knoll,the wingnut son,all connected.

[Nikki Stone1]

126. The AP article is odd

Associated Press
AP: New Details on Tillman's Death
By MARTHA MENDOZA 07.26.07, 7:28 PM ET
SAN FRANCISCO -

Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

"The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

The doctors - whose names were blacked out - said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away...

...The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case.

"He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no," the doctor testified....

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/26/ap3958728.html

[Kablooie]

129. It's probably true but the only person that will swing is the guy who pulled the trigger.

[moondust]

133. You mean like Abu Ghraib?

[Philosoraptor]

130. SHIRLEY no one in our government could be THAT evil?

[Cheap_Trick]

134. they ARE that evil

and don't call me Shirley

[vssmith]

131. This is bullshit!

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to hate the Bush admin without making up fairy tales.

[WinkyDink]

160. You know what Michael Corleone said, don't you? "Now who's being naive....?"

[WritersBlock]

136. Why are they invoking Executive Privilege? That is the key question.

Invoking EP is a blatant admission of White House involvement in the situation.

[WinkyDink]

163. THE KEY QUESTION, without a DOUBT. HOW can EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE be SPUN here???

[DFW]

137. In a word, no.

Tillman was a gung-ho flag-waving "patriot," and was in Afghanistan, not Iraq.
Plus--he was where he wanted to be, fighting terrrrists before we have to fight
them here, etc etc.

I side with those who think this was a fragging incident, as has been suggested,
in all likelihood between Tillman and other members of his unit who blew him away
during a firefight. The cover-up, on the other hand, was indeed ordered (or at the
very least condoned and urged on) from very high up (Rove or Cheney high up), as
hero Tillman was very useful to them, and US-murdered Tillman was very bad news
for them. His uniform was not ordered burned due to danger of cootie contamintation.

[treestar]

156. But if he was so adamantantly against the war in Iraq, he wasn't

a total kool-aid drinker, and he definitely wasn't a fundie.

I get that he'd be no member of DU, but he was going against the * doctrine.

BTW, what is fragging?

[DFW]

219. Oops, sorry about that

Some of us Vietnam-era types tend to forget that people are not taught
the terminology of the era in school these days!

"Fragging" originally meant incidents of soldiers having such vehement
arguments/disagreements/fights (whatever) that they attacked their
fellow soldiers (often their immediate superiors, but not always),
often with fragmentation grenades (hence the term, although it was soon
used as an all-encompassing term to describe deliberately attacking your own
guys, no matter what weapon you chose). Sometimes it was because they were
ordered to do unreasonable stuff, sometimes it was an out-and-out race thing,
there were any number of reasons. The Pentagon's official position was that
there was no such thing (at the time, anyway). But there has been such a thing
ever since there has been war.

[Flying Dream Blues]

158. Except it's been admitted that there WAS no enemy fire that day. nt

[Telly Savalas]

139. If we're going on speculative flights of fancy...

isn't just a reasonable to assume that a cabal of Democratic Congresspeople and Senators ordered his death? A lot of them voted for the IWR and there's been no effort to defund the war.

[leaninglib]

141. Don't you think that Bush is too incompetent to pull something like this off?

I do.

[glitch]

147. Of course. Which is why it's unraveling now. Competence would have kept it raveled. nt

[leaninglib]

239. You make a good point; still,

it seems to me that something of this magnitude would be too much for these guys to pull off.

[treestar]

157. That argument overlooks that Bush is not alone

He is a figurehead to more evil forces.

Cheney is capable of all this, for starters.

[leaninglib]

240. I don't believe that anyone could plan or execute this sort of thing

and keep it hidden. Far too many people know what happened. That is why the friendly fire explanation was revealed as a lie.

[WinkyDink]

165. What?! HE didn't do the actual murdering, just as he didn't personally flood NO, or personally

torture or eavesdrop, or "out" VP, or commit perjury before the SJC, or....

HE HAS MINIONS.

[leaninglib]

241. Think about it--if people conspired to do this,

an incompetent like Bush would be the last person that you would want in the loop.

[JDPriestly]

144. 3 shots in the forehead from 10 yards

Sounds like an old-fashioned firing squad, but then, maybe I've just seen too many movies about WWII and Communist interrogation techniques.

[Warren Stupidity]

182. Communist interrogation techniques?

You mean like this:



Oh wait, the guy pulling the trigger worked for us, the communist is the other guy.

[Pavulon]

188. All US Branches teach

people to fire select fire rilfes in 3 shot bursts. Takes a 1/10 (give or take a few tenths) of a second to fire a 3shot burst form an m4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHQj92rEc1Q

Minimal recoil would allow that shot from one person.

[paparush]

145. Famous, Handsome, Articulate, and Disallusioned with the War

Tillman was going to come home from Afghanistan and provide a huge boost to the John Kerry Presidential Campaign.

The neocons could not allow that to happen. Thus, Tillman had to die.

[Enthusiast]

161. What I've come to believe about these NeoCons

The idea that it was a 'hit', ordered from up the chain of command, isn't out of the realm of possibilities. This bunch has subverted the constitution at every turn. Remember, they have illegally changed the result in two presidential elections, this is beyond any doubt. Free elections are the very foundation of this democracy. I would not put anything past them.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

202. Yet another small plane crash and JFK, Jr. is gone.

I can't name one prominent Repub. who died this way, yet Wellstone, Kennedy,Jr., Heinz and Carnahan are just the first to come to mind.

MKJ

[leftofthedial]

159. he held anti-bush policy opinions

he was a high profile soldier

he was murdered by Americans

his murder was covered up twice

his death was used for propaganda

[Beelzebud]

164. A government that keeps secrets invites this sort of thinking.

[kevin4589]

167. The U.S. does not deserve respect when the government is being run by goons and thugs

The U.S. government is run by the criminal elements in society being brought up and GOP farms where they train these thugs.

[superkia]

170. Before we say that his fellow soldiers would have said something

are there any witnesses to the shooting and if so, who are they and are they going to be put under oath? A higher ranked person could easily have him leave an area where everyone else was? We will probably never know, no real news and too many Americans that say we are all crazy or that just say that there is nothing they can do? Rediculous!

[femrap]

171. This is definitely something that

these evil sons of satan would do....they would never allow an NFL football player to stump for Kerry....NEVER!!!! He would have been speaking to a big part of their base...the 'angry white guys.' Oh no...that would NOT be permitted.

Holy shit.

[Warren Stupidity]

181. Isn't covering up a crime

considered "an accessory after the fact" and wouldn't that make everyone involved in the cover up accessories to murder?

[Emillereid]

183. Personally I wouldn't put anything past the bunch of thugs running the WH.

They are criminals though and though. If this story has legs -- then will the Congress act to impeach? Better yet, just arrest the bunch, put their sorry asses in jail and throw away the key!

[Old Vet]

201. Three headshots??

Man, If thats not a red flag. It doesnt get more intentional than that,Thats not friendly fire. Thats called murder anywhere.

[EFerrari]

204. I wonder if someone was dropped into his squad just before the murder.

Is there anyway to know that?

[nikto]

207. Did Bush Admin Order Tillman Murdered to Silence Him?

YES.

It is the nature of Bu$hCo---It is WHO and WHAT THEY ARE.

[scarletwoman]

221. Yes, there is a way to know that -- Kevin Tillman, Pat's brother was in the same squad.

Don't you think he'd be screaming bloody murder if someone had been "dropped" into their squad?

I'm absolutely appalled that so many DUers are piling onto this ridiculous conspiracy theory.

Please read my post #210 below, and then follow the link to the "Tillman Files" by Stan Goff and start reading those. It will take several hours, but it's time WAY better spent than reading a bunch of idiotic speculative posts based on absolutely NO knowledge of events at ALL!

If you don't want to read through the whole series, at least read Part 4 "The Firefight" -- some excerpts of which I have pasted in my post #220.

I'm really saddened by all the nonsense on this thread.

sw

[EFerrari]

222. Kevin Tillman is furious. Did you watch him at the hearing?

He's not screaming but you could almost see the anger coming off of him. That poor family.

[nikto]

208. In the immortal words of Peggy Noonan...

...It is irresponsible NOT to speculate.

And, yeah, I think the Bushies had him killed--Par for the Bu$hCo course.

[Wetzelbill]

203. You know Stan Goff says that the special forces....

are magnets for the most racist white RWer types. That even though the rest of the military is integrated, the higher the special forces the more white everything starts getting. He says they regularly tune into the Rush Limbaugh screeds etc. Now, I imagine most people in special forces are pretty intelligent and all, and don't necessarily believe all that bs, and I would think that most people just wouldn't go out and murder somebody, especially, one of your fellow soldiers, but I could see maybe one guy going off like that. Think about it. It's plausible that one guy totally gung-ho and in love with Bush and the RWers, who is absolutely down with killing Arabic people, just had it in for Tillman and flipped out. He used his training to coldly plan it, took Tillman by surprise and executed him. Not saying that is what happened, but it's plausible. Fragging happened for less reasons in Vietnam, and sociopaths exist in all of society, including the military. I could see that.

I am not sure the whole thing as nefarious as the Bush WH having the guy murdered, but it definitely seems like something bad happened here. Well, not "seems" obviously the guy was murdered, and obviously it was covered up. We know who, what and why, it was covered up, because of White House politics. But we don't know those answers when it comes to his actual murders. It very well could be as bad as we suspect. I wouldn't put it past these people.

[scarletwoman]

210. Stan Goff -- on his own blog -- says absolutely NOT! It was NOT a fragging!

Here is his reply to my own question there of whether Tillman's death might have been a case of fragging:

STAN: Not unless it occurred in front of at least eight people, all who had great respect for him, and who conspired to cover this up together. Two of the top gunshot specialists in forensic pathology in the nation agree with me that this was likely a squad automatic weapon (same caliber as an M-4). The army dummied up the distances, then drew them down to 85 meters to support a “fog of war” thesis (as opposed to the actual serial violations of the ROE that did occur… more likely at around 40 meters.

The three shots that killed Pat were actually two tight, and one flyer, all head shots and each instantly fatal on its own account. Now think in slow motion. Let me begin with the terminal ballistics one never sees in films and on tv. Destruction of the connectionn between the brain stem and the rest of the body caused a body to fall… straight down. No, people do not fly through the air like the stunt-people in Hollywood. Straight down. This happens instantly.

The new theory proposed by some so-called expert, says that this tight shot-group (less than 4 inches) could only have been fired by someone shooting on semi-automatic (one shot at a time, even if in rapid succession). A fully-automatic weapon, like the Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) that is presumed (by me and two of the top forensics experts in the country) to be the lethal weapon, according to this theory, cannot fire this shot group because automatic weapons can not be controlled for this tight a shot-group.

This premise is the basis of the presumed distance (10 meters) and mode of fire (semi-auto)/weapon (M-4) in the ne AP-propogated theory. Two problems: (1) the theory about auto fire is wrong, and (2) Pat was shot in the face three times, while facing downhill, and standing on a steep incline dropping to his front.

(2) first. For this to have been an M-4 fiing on semi, the shooter would have had to fire, reaquire, fire, reaquire, and fire again, before Pat fell to the ground (straight down, on a steep forward inclining piece of terrain, with a large stone in front of him to prevent him tumbling down the hill). Even a very good rapid-fire shooter could not have place all three shots together quickly enough to fire the second and third shots before Pat fell away from the sight alignment. The only 5.56 mm weapon that could have placed those shots that quickly in the same place was the SAW… cyclic rate of auto-fire: 850 rounds per minute (14 rounds per second, ergo, three rounds in 2/10 of a second). Physics and physiology matter; now add on the statistical probability that a bunch of enlisted people wopuld willingly participate as accessories after the fact in a cold-blooded murder (that just happened to coincide with an unplanned (but ineffectual) ambush)… and we begin to appreciate how unlikely this scenario is.

Now for number (1). I’ll happily go to the range with anyone who cares to set it up today (which can be arranged with anyone who has been trained with the SAW), and demonstrate that these tight groups very well can be fired from a Saw, when they are part of a continuous firing cycle that allows the gunner to first walk the fire onto a target, then tighten down on the weapon as he orients on the impact signature (The rock in front of Pat was covered with bullet strikes.).

There are family members who will not easily dismiss this because they are not experts on these things, and because the government has lied and covered up again and again and again on this case. I don’t fault them; and in fact I have great affection for them. The depth of their sense of betrayal would make anyone think the worst, and want someone to prove otherwise. More than this, I am not willing to say because I am still under a confidentiality agreement.

Let me say this, though. If this case becomes about a conspiracy to murder, the focus is taken off the likely suspects for the real cover-up and crime, and the ones who all these sacrifices of Generals have been designed to protect… Donald Rumsfeld, Lawrence DeRita, and probably George W. Bush. They are all loving this right now. (my emphasis)

(this was posted in the comments section of an unrelated thread in which Tillman was brought up: http://stangoff.com/?p=522#comment-82779

Here's a reply from Stan to an earlier comment on that same thread:

STAN: The big news is that Rumsfeld will invoke executive privilege to avoid testifying about when he learned about the fratricide. On the conspiracy, I respect Dr. Zimbardo immensely, and the Stanford Experiment remains extremely relevant; but I have reviewed thousands of pages of testimony on the incident, and know the family quite well. Infantry platoons don’t commit political assassinations, and Pat’s killing was not planned by anyone. This is my absolute and categorical opinion. (my bold) I have written a series about Pat’s death for the now-defunct From the Wilderness Publications, called “The Tillman Files,” and my basic prosecutorial hypotheses remain unchanged. I have since learned many more details and had names corrected from previously redacted documents; but long-story-short, no conspiracy. More than that I can’t say now, because I have signed a confidentiality aggreement that limits my discussion of this case.

And here's another response to a commenter wondering if there could have been a black ops insertion into Tillman's platoon:

STAN RESPONDS: I wonder if all the soldiers in that platoon were actually soldiers. No, the Black Ops folks always hire 20-year-olds (one member of the shooter vehicle was 19!), and put them in deep cover — which they study between playing video games and sharing high school lies.

The task organization of the platoon that placed that particular vehicle, with those particular troops, in this situation… with Pat exactly where he was… was decided on an ad hoc basis, less than an hour before it happened, after an all day delay, caused by a busted vehicle. The decision was made by a 1st Lieutenant (was he in on it?), and forced on him after an argument by members of the TOC in Khoust (were they all in on it?), and altered at the last minuted by an Afghan jinga truck driver (was he in on it?) who’d been randomly hired in Magarah to tow the broken vehicle on that very day, after consultation between the PLT chain of command (were they all in on it?).

Pat’s position was decided by Pat, after being released from an earlier position by an acting squad leader (was he in on it, and did he control Pat’s mind in Pat’s selection of exactly that place in the boonies of Paktia Province?), who was himself sent forward in response to gunfire in a canyon. Did the Black Ops people put the ruts in the road that trashed the hummer that caused the delay that stalled the Blacksheep Platooon in Magarah for more than six hours, where they were sussed out by three part-time guerrillas (were they in on it?) who played their role by staging an ineffectual ambush along a last-minute route determined by the inability of the jinga truck that was towing the busted vehicle to climb through the originally planned (less than one hour before) wadi?

I love how conspiracy-affines refer to others as “naive,” when they themselves cannot describe the difference between correlation and causation, and they attach themselves to stories that are only possible in the minds of scriptwriters. Real Black Ops are straightforward affairs, with planning designed to minimize complexity and reduce the number of independent actors and “moving parts”… but that makes a shitty script. But if this is what you want to believe, then we’ll leave you to the Illuminati. In the real world, power has to mobilize such awesome resources on its own behalf precisely because it cannot exercise the kind of control you suggest. No one can.

Lastly, I hope people will go read Stan's 7 part series on Pat Tillman available here: The Tillman Files

Here's a relevent excerpt from Part 7:

Let me say for the record, again, that I do not believe that Pat Tillman was targeted for assassination.

A second lieutenant and an infantry sergeant are not tasked with anything as politically sensitive as assassination. I am speaking as an alumnus of Delta Force, one of the few organizations that actually might be entrusted with this kind of operation (and then only very rarely). It doesn’t matter what you see in the movies.

The decisions that placed Pat Tillman at exactly the place and exactly the time of his death were made ad hoc, on the spot, at a series of junctures that could not have been controlled, including a vehicle that unexpectedly broke down, one key decision made by an Afghan jinga truck driver and Pat’s own decision (following two on-the-spot decisions by members of his platoon in direct response to a completely unexpected situation) to move forward into the position where he was shot.

The mystique of Special Operations (including the Rangers, who are the Special Operations’ shock infantry component) is useful as a deterrent, but it is not reflective of a reality. The Pentagon and others want you and the rest of the world to believe this mystique, because your fear and the fear of the rest of the world is what maintains the efficacy of a huge bluff. This government wants us to spin out as many scary fantasies as possible, because it serves the dual purpose of either portraying opponents of the military as “conspiracy nuts” or promoting precisely the myth of spooky invincibility that keeps us in line.

I came straight from the bowels of this system, and I have written three books exposing the worst aspects of the military. If they haven’t cut my brake lines or shot me when I’m out fishing yet, then they didn’t kill Pat Tillman because he criticized the war in Iraq and read a book by Noam Chomsky. (my bold)

I say this as a preface to what I am about to present, because unanswered questions have a habit of getting answered by our imaginations. Declaring that there isn’t an answer to a question then providing one with the implicit assumption that this is the answer ignores the very common and simple fact that many, many things are done for reasons that are not linear and logical, and it further ignores that we don’t have all the information necessary to form a useful conclusion. It’s like saying -- had one lived in 1400 AD -- if this fever is not being caused by witchcraft, then what is causing it? And it ignores the fact that not all human actions -- in fact, arguably, only a few of them -- are motivated by causal logic or even well-thought-out intent.

<snip>

All that is required, however, to discredit those asking the questions is our own insistence on the least plausible scenario, no doubt inspired by a righteous mistrust and loathing of people like Donald Rumsfeld and Lawrence Di Rita, when the existing facts do not support that scenario.

There is nothing the Pentagon would rather do with this case, aside from making it evaporate, than turn it into a debate about whether Pat was assassinated or not. (my bold) He wasn’t, and so they can not only poke fun at any of us who propose that hypothesis, they can relax as we all bark up the wrong tree.

I REALLY want folks to get off this conspiracy theory and pay attention to the real provable crime of the cover-up!

sw

[Kat 333]

209. This is his mom's Reply to the Same Question ...

http://petulantrumble.blogspot.com/2007/03/mary-tillman-speaks-out.html

For those who say it's nuts to wonder if there wasn't substantial involvement, of higher ups, I would have to say ... His mama sure as hell wonders. And if in her shoes I would too.

[scarletwoman]

212. The involvement of the higher ups is in the COVER-UP, not Tillman's death itself!

See my post above yours re: Stan Goff's take.

sw

[Kat 333]

213. I don't agree with that thought ...

"The involvement of the higher ups is in the COVER-UP, not Tillman's death itself!"


His mother seemed to be quite suspect of the Circumstances of her son's death ... Not Just the Cover Up.

She makes these statements ...

When asked "do you think you now know what happened in Afghanistan to your son"

She replied she does not know. She said she is not excluding the possibility that someone deliberately shot him.

When asked "Are we looking at a conspiracy theory with pats thoughts on the war ..."

She replied "I don't know. I don't know if i can go so far as to say that.
But I can't eliminate that ... can I."

[scarletwoman]

215. All I can say is, read my post #210. (nt)

[Kat 333]

216. I did read it.

And still do not agree with your statement "The involvement of the higher ups is in the COVER-UP, not Tillman's death itself!"

For the same reasons I stated in the post that you replied to.

[Pavulon]

218. Reality Check

things taken as a whole make a murder unlikely. A coverup for political or stupid army reasons is probable.

1) These guys were Rangers. They had additional training and were not 18 year kids out of boot. Older guys tend to be calmer and smarter.
2) 3 round groups are norm. The old ass m16a2 i qualified on could only fire in this configuration. The m4 that we carried in vehicles was fully automatic. However 3 shot bursts or controlled pair was the only accepted way to fire this rifle. The m4 can fire 3 rounds in the time it takes to push the power button on your remote. The recoil would allow a 30 foot group of 4 - 6 inches.. Assuming the shooter had a sight and the first round was at the chin the rest could hit the head, easily.
3) Guys fight all the time. I saw guys beat the living shit out of each other. Reasons varied from theft to boredom. However, even when weapons were around no one EVER pulled or used one.
4) People cant shut up. You think a corporal or sargent who has done combat tours and left the army would just stand by and say nothing if someone killed man outright in his command? Not going to happen.
5) Why would the government kill a guy for bitching. Everyone bitches, all the time.

[scarletwoman]

220. It appears that most posters on this thread don't WANT a reality check.

HERE'S a reality check that I wish everyone would read, Stan Goff's account of the actual event gleaned from over 2,000 pages of the army's investigations and conversations with both Mary and Kevin Tillman (Pat's mother & brother):

The Tillman Files - Part 4
Firefight

BLOODLETTING

In the same instant that Baker’s vehicle opened up on the village, they came within a few meters of a six-foot rock retaining wall on their right, and over the top of the wall Baker spotted muzzle flashes. They were those of the AMF and Pat Tillman, and they were very, very near… around 60 meters away. (The changed statements for the second investigation would vary from claiming 100-200 meters.)

“Contact at three o’clock!” Baker screamed, and the entire vehicle swung its blazing automatic weapons, with the wavering heat mirage drifting off the overheated barrels, to the right. The vehicle rolled to a stop for an instant.

Weeks’ element and Pat’s element dropped in deep behind the cover of the rocks as this immense volume of fire chewed up the ground around them, with its lethal stacatto of supersonic cracks and the sparks of shattering rock and the burning balls of grounded tracer ammunition.

Pat, Weeks, and O’Neal were screaming, “Cease fire! Friendlies!” at the top of their lungs. The AMF lay in a pool of blood, cut down in the hail of fire. Pat took a white-smoke grenade off of his load-carrying equipment and pulled the pin, tossing it in front of their position in the hope that it would signal to Baker’s vehicle that they were making a terrible mistake.

The firing into Pat’s position had been going on for mere seconds by then.

There is a space of time between the instant one commits to action and time required to assess the results of an action… especially in dynamic situations. In an action such as firing a weapon in combat, even one that was – until Serial 2’s vehicle opened upon its own troops – comparatively minor, that exercise of intent becomes a process in motion, and the period of time between observing a change in the situation and realizing the significance of what one observes is not unlike the lag in time between looking up from ones dashboard to the road ahead and realizing that a deer is crossing your path… and the actual application of one’s brakes.

<snip>

This was the psychology of Baker’s vehicle when they exited the canyon at dusk on April 22, 2004. They were simply firing at multiple points that stood out on the terrain. This is sometimes called “tunnel-vision,” and it is very common. It is a state of ultra-aggression, hat if given free reign, over-rides one’s critical faculties. Leaders who allow their troops to “go there,” are setting up a situation where processes that depend on judgment – like observation of the rules of the Geneva Conventions that prohibit firing into villages from where there is no observable threat, like rules of engagement (ROE) that require positive identification (PID) of a person as friend or foe before firing at them – are mooted.

This is why a standing operating procedure (SOP) that states subordinates are supposed to orient their fires on those of the leader is potentially at odds with ROE and Geneva. The Rangers in Baker’s vehicle were following the SOP at odds with the ROE and Geneva. They were in a psycho-physiological intention-action cycle, at the end of a long, frustrating day.

When Baker’s view of the rocks where they were firing was obscured by white smoke, he had his vehicle pull forward to regain view of the rocks. This move took almost four seconds by the best accounts.

Someone was yelling “friendlies” from within the vehicle, but the sound was amid a cacophony of yelling which did nor indicate where the friendlies were, and sounded far away as if in a distant hollow room, because the whole crew was partially deafened by the resonating gunfire that had assaulted their tympanic membranes inside the canyon. This sound was something that was still outside the intention-action cycle of shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot.

In that space of that four second lull in fire, Pat Tillman and O’Neal, deeply relieved that the smoke had alerted Baker’s vehicle to their presence, had stood and waved their arms over their heads to confirm their position.

<snip>

PUNCH, PUNCH, PUNCH

When the vehicle made that stop, four seconds ahead of their last stop, they were still programmed to punch, punch, punch, punch, punch. They were so into it that O’Neal would later testify that two of them actually dismounted the vehicle, further contributing to Tillman and O’Neal’s impression that they may have been recognized. But at the end of this move, as this two or three members of Baker’s vehicle actually dismounted and advanced a short distance toward Pat’s position, they leveled their weapons at the human forms and began punching rounds into them as fast as they could hit the trigger and realign the sights

There was a moment of disbelief on the part of Pat Tillman and Brian O’Neal. Then Pat saved Brian’s life. He pushed O’Neal back behind the rocks. But before he could himself take cover, he had been hit. The order of impact will never be known. In the hail of fire that was punctuated by tracers chattering through the lethal cone of high-velocity projectiles, stones were thrown at high enough speed to wound Pat in the wrist and leg. It is also know that SAW ammunition hit the body armor that covered his chest and abdomen. He managed, in his last moments, to shout, “I’m Pat fucking Tillman, damnit!” Then the impact of the rounds drove him down, where he said something to Brian O’Neal. O’Neal would say that by now there was pain in his voice. Then, with the passive motion of the body of this gifted athlete being shifted by the impact of high-powered ammunition, his head moved while three rounds of either M240 or SAW ammunition, or both, hit him in the head. His lifeless form dropped alongside O’Neal and the body of the AMF.

If people would read the whole story, they'd see how absurd it is to ascribe ANY intention to kill Pat Tillman in the events that unfolded. It was just the terribly tragic outcome to a series of one fuckup after another.

sw

[TheOtherMaven]

224. If anything, that's WORSE

because it means there was no logic or sanity to it whatsoever.

It's almost easier (and, bizarrely, more comforting) to believe in intentional murder than to believe that human beings can so easily - if temporarily - be turned into paychopathic killer-robots.

Smedley Butler was right: TO HELL WITH WAR!

[Adsos Letter]

227. DELETE

[Warren Stupidity]

229. He was shot at close range.

Sorry about the new details, but they are why people are getting re-upset about this.

[scarletwoman]

243. I understand that -- which is why I posted my online exchange with Stan Goff on this very subject.

Read my post #210; it contains his full reply to the question I asked him yesterday about this very issue -- the new documents from Thursday which contain the doctors' speculation about the distance of the shooter(s).

If you don't know who Stan Goff is, just google his name. He's an ex-special forces guy who became disenchanted with the dark side, and the author of several books.

Also in my post #210 is a link to Goff's 7-part investigative report on the death of Pat Tillman, entitled the "Tillman Files". It makes for some truly awesome and eye-opening reading. I spent all day yesterday reading the entire ouvre -- it's VERY illuminating. I excerpted a large portion of Part 4 in my post #220.

Last night I also followed a link to ESPN's truly exemplary reportage on Tillman, and I highly recommend it -- especially the interview with Bryan O'Neal, the guy who was next to Tillman when he got shot: Ranger: Shooters could not have been 10 yards from Tillman

I literally spent my entire day and evening (until past midnight) yesterday reading both the "Tillman Files" by Stan Goff, and every single article about Tillman on the ESPN website. When you click on the link for the O'Neal interview, look to the right of the page to the 4 articles under the title "E-Ticket" and read those. At least read part 4, which is largely Bryan O'Neal's story -- it's really quite heartrending.

Unlike most people on this thread -- as far as I can tell from the lack of references to any sort of reporting on Tillman's death beyond the excerpts from Thursday's AP report -- I've now put in many hours of research on this subject. I don't entirely discount the possibility that he may have murdered on purpose by a fellow ranger, but after hours and hours of reading, it seems to me that the base terrible truth about this incident is that it was a totally fucked up accident with LOTS of people consumed with a need to cover their asses -- not a purposeful assassination.

I think it's lazy and irresponsible for people to be making conclusions based on no research whatsoever.

sw

[Warren Stupidity]

228. "Older guys tend to be calmer and smarter."

Which, in the absence of any fire fight or enemy contact, would support a theory of deliberate killing.

"People cant shut up." They didn't. That is why we know that this was a friendly fire incident and not the original silver-star awarded combat death. Speaking of which: THERE OBVIOUSLY WAS A CONSPIRACY AND COVERUP. The only issue is exactly WHAT was being covered up.

As to motive: the motive is that Tillman was not the poster boy they thought he was, was outspoken in his opposition to the Iraqi Disaster, and as a consequence his "older and calmer and smarter" comrades decided to shut him up permanently. "Why would the government kill a guy for bitching" the government didn't, his fellow rangers did, the government, acting as an accessory to murder after the fact, actively cconspired to cover up the killing.

And once again, before you go all defensively lead-headed on this: the conver up is a fact, the only question is what were they covering up.

[Adsos Letter]

232. .......yes......

....~snip~

"...the conver up is a fact, the only question is what were they covering up."

~snip~ (see...I've gotten all "snippy" with you...) :D

I don't think anyone is arguing against a coverup. It is the motive which is at issue; the correct answer to that question is the difference between night and day, and contains it's own galaxy of issues.

[AntiFascist]

233. If Bush himself had seen evidence of murder...

but proceeded with the coverup anyway, THAT is what is also at issue, not the nature of what is being covered up necessarilly. He would be indirectly endorsing such incidents.

[Warren Stupidity]

235. Endorsing? How about accessory after the fact? nt.

[Adsos Letter]

236. ...true statement...

...and the easiest way to achieve deniability is to puposefully keep himself uninformed as to details.

[Pavulon]

237. Correct, Cover up a fuck up

A cover up makes sense. the army covers up all kinds of stuff. FWA I saw first hand. Short of a weapons theft shit got buried unless it could be pinned on someone. Because it made people look bad. Anything that cause someone a problem has the potential to be minimized. That line becomes blurry, minimize and lie to cover up.

I NEVER stated their was no cover up of fact, I explain it as a factor in my reasoning.

I DO NOT believe that a fellow Ranger killed the man on orders, because he insulted them, or for his beliefs. That is what a beating is for.

Some one would WOULD admit to knowing about this. Guys with jack shit to do except talk, talk. This probably came up.

Nothing is impossible, however it is as close to it as possible that Special Forces guys killed their own man over a grudge or direct order.

They were covering up a common mistake since warfare;s inception. Fratricide. This went up the chane and people lied. That does not mean the trigger puller killed with intent.

[scarletwoman]

244. Thank you. Just want you to know that I see this the same way so you won't feel so lonely.

I hope you'll read my other posts on this thread.

sw

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

245. "After killing Tillman, at least one of the same Rangers turned his guns on a village

where witnesses say civilian women and children had gathered. The shooters raked it with fire, the American witnesses said; they wounded two additional fellow Rangers, including their own platoon leader.

Calmer and smarter?

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9789986/2

MKJ

[dysfunctional press]

234. do you have any actual evidence to back up that kind of accusation?

or are you just pissing in the wind?

[ooglymoogly]

238. just oooodles and oooodles

first of all booosh-shitler has surpassed our wildest suspect of evil so far it boggles the mind and believe me my mind is boggled and boiling over. Proof shmoof...this jerk is as guilty as a cat with canary feathers glued with blood to his smirking lying lips. Why would you even presume to assume that this case is different from all the rest where proof has already been leaked and proven...doesn't the fact that he is claiming executive privilege on what might be proof either way even raise a modicum of suspicion in your mind....why is he hiding these documents.

By the way I just got wind that boooshco is privatizing the highways and bridges and some real good deals on shares in the Brooklyn Bridge are available and a couple hundred are reserved (limit 200 per customer) for you at just $100 a share....just send non traceable bearer bonds (no checks please) to Halitoses Burton, Murkin Embassy building fund, gen delivery, Baghdad Iraq.

SHOW ME THE DOCUMENTS, THEN I'LL GIVE HIM THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE THING....TILL THEN IN MY MIND HE IS GUILTY AS GUILTY CAN BE TO SAY NOTHING OF BEING THE ANTICHRIST.

[dysfunctional press]

242. okay...

:eyes: