The Two News Helicopters that Crashed

[brettdale]

How the heck can they charge the guy who was driving the car with their deaths???????

Thats nuts!!!!

[Robbien]

1. The guy in the car

must be nonwhite and suspected of being a Democrat.

[babylonsister]

2. I agree, it's nuts. Pilot error, sounds more like it. nt

[Liberal In Texas]

3. Possibly. Or one helicopter had a serious engine failure or other major problem and was not in

control. I'm waiting for the NTSB and the FAA investigation before I start blaming the pilots.

[babylonsister]

5. Very true. I assumed the distraction caused the accident, but that

could be totally wrong. :thumbsup:

[Faygo Kid]

4. The guy in the car was the proximate cause of their deaths, in commission of a felony.

This is not new law, it's standard legal principle: You are responsible for the harm you cause to others when committing a felony, whether that specific harm could be anticipated, was intended or not.

We need to apply this principle to the Bush Administration.

Anyway, he doesn't get off the hook simply because this was not his intent.

[brettdale]

6. Thats fuckin nuts.

What dumb mother fucker come up with that law. Charge the guy with reckless dangerous driving or what ever crime he commited, but there is no way he should be charged with the deaths of those helicopter pilots.

[Faygo Kid]

8. It's called "felony murder," and dates back to the 12th century.

Geez, it's been 25 years since I studied this in law school, but some brain cell retained it. Here's a link you might want to look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder. Another good reason to steer clear of felonies, but this is one I think should apply to Bush and Iraq, and probably to Katrina and New Orleans, too ("who could have imagined the levees would break?")

[Swamp Rat]

11. Exhibit A:

[Faygo Kid]

19. Well stated. Proximate cause, indeed.

Thanks for your post. If felony murder applies to the perpetrator of the chase in this case, why not to the entire George W. Bush presidency?

[ProudDad]

42. 'cause bush has diplomatic immunity

he's not a resident of "reality world"...

He and his create reality?


Or maybe Executive Privilege...

All presidents have committed felony murder, none have been charged yet...

[babylonsister]

26. Oh, Swamp Rat,

thanks for the memories that no one should EVER forget, as hard as they are to look at. :hug: :cry:

[Mr Rabble]

35. I had that same thought.

As I scrolled down to see those pics I said "oh my god" out loud. I'm alone here tonight.

I still just can not believe this is America.

[johnfunk]

49. Swamp Rat: as always, ever-so-slightly OT yet 100% on the mark

And here's another mantra to add to your repertoire:

The post-Katrina federal response was the
ethnic cleansing of New Orleans

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

50. I still believe it was deliberate, premeditated ethnic cleasing and Swamp,

these photos bring tears to my eyes and rage to my heart. :hug:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

7. Unless he's Mel Gibson or Pete Coors.

MKJ

[Kagemusha]

9. Question: if the cause of the crash wasn't distraction, is that a defense?

I mean, if the harm wasn't caused by him, but is purely coincidental, like engine failure, would that not be a defense at trial?

No, lack of specific intent is not a defense by itself. Lack of causality... dunno.

As for this admin, I think that just plain in general the concept of command responsibility has taken a severe beating in the US. Not that it was perfect before, but IMHO, it was way better than in some other countries.

[Faygo Kid]

10. You are right to focus on degree of causality. Are his actions too remote?

That will likely be his defense, whether there was pilot error, engine failure or another contributing factor.

Still, it is clear that the helicopters would not be there BUT FOR his felonious behavior.

I wouldn't want to be in his shoes, but then again - he's still alive.

[brettdale]

12. Okay then

Say that fatal night in 1997, Princess Diana was driving the car and had been drinking and speeding and she didnt crash but a photographer did and was killed, would she be charged with that photographer's death under the law if it happened in the USA?

[Kagemusha]

14. It's an easier case if she'd just robbed a bank, in your example.

It's not just any felony. That's my understanding anyway.

[brettdale]

17. so the guy robbed a banked

And members of the media were killed following him in a helicopter. They should charge him with robbing a bank, and dangerous driving, there is no way he should be charged with the deaths of those in the helicopters.

[Kagemusha]

21. On balance I would agree with you, but I think circumstances matter.

It's not that, the option shouldn't be there if there is direct causality, but at some point the logic of it completely breaks down. If this had been a police officer in a car who crashed into a pole during a chase and died, that, I could understand charging the guy for. I think the circumstances make a really big difference.

[Kagemusha]

13. But if the helicopters would be somewhere else...

That's where it breaks down, depending on how the crash investigation goes. We'll see.

[brettdale]

18. Okay then

What say its spring break and some college student flashed her boobies at a guy who proceeds to walk into a lampost, that falls down and hits another person on the head and they died, would the lady be charged with murder?

The bank robbery should have nothing to do with it, because it already been commited.

This is just bizarre.

[karlrschneider]

15. But not all police chases are pursuing known felons. And what about

a motorist who is distracted by the chasing cop and hits another car, killing one or more occupants? Is he or she culpable under this 'felony murder' doctrine?

[Kagemusha]

23. a) gets murky. b) it's not eligible unless particular felonies start the process.

I wish I could give a soundbyte answer that'd satisfy everyone here but, not so.

Keep in mind that juries were invented to put a lid on stretching concepts like these past the bounds of justice.

[karlrschneider]

28. True enough...what is missing in cases like this is intent.

And of course premeditation. As far as that's concerned, motive and means are questionable as well.

[Kagemusha]

Nah, intent to commit the serious felony is enough legally.

That part, I don't even have a problem with. If you rob a bank, say, you're engaging in a dangerous action that may wind up with someone dead at some point in it, whether or not you actually intend to kill anyone at all. You can choose not to rob the bank. Therefore, the criminal's intent to rob the bank is treated as implicit acceptance of all that flows from it.

The issue is what flows from it and what does NOT flow from it.

[karlrschneider]

34. I don't think we are disagreeing much, because I don't see a jury buying

the claim that the incidental death of someone only peripherally involved and being so for their own financial benefit devolves on the original perpetrator. But I suppose it could happen...I just wouldn't agree with it. The wheels of justice too often run on flat tires.

[DS1]

16. That's like saying the Defense Department is resposible for third-party contractors

who die in combat zones while trying to reap the big profits.

Fuck that.

[OlderButWiser]

25. So let's say

they close down a stretch of highway because of a car chase. And I have to detour to another surface street and get killed in an intersection. Is my death because of the the guy they're chasing? I would have never been in that intersection if it hadn't been for him.

[karlrschneider]

29. Criminal prosecutions tend to 'keep up' with civil actions (torts) which

have come to be "cast a wide net in hopes of snagging someone."

Sue everyone in sight, or charge them...two sides of the counterfeit coin of 'justice.'

[Joe Fields]

36. If it were police officers chasing him that were killed,

I could understand. But these were news helicopters, who needed to exercise reasonable care in their pursuit of a story. I am only a layman and not a criminal lawyer, but I don't see how he can be charged with their deaths.

[Richard Steele]

38. Nope. He was certainly not "proximate". He did not create any compulsion for them to be there.

And his actions did not CAUSE the deaths.

They CHOSE to be there, and some sort of pilot error
CAUSED the crash.

That's very different.

He was in no way the most important factor in the deaths;
this case is just another modern fascist-mindset attempt
to blur the lines between "legal" and "emotional".

[Wiccan Warrior]

45. SO what you are saying is if I rob a store and run away

and a motorist sees me running down the road not paying attention cause they are a gawker and get into an accident because they were stupid I will have to pay for it?

[AZBlue]

20. If a death occurs while you commit a crime and as the crime is occurring, you may be charged.

And thanks so much for your compassion and caring. Everyone in Phoenix really appreciates it, especially those of us who knew any of the victims.
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

[trumad]

22. Oh please

it's much deeper than that.

[AZBlue]

24. Please enlighten us.

[trumad]

43. OK

Me-thinks sensationalism killed the news crews. How about that?

[mitchum]

48. You are correct; sensationalism is indeed what killed the news crews

I don't understand why almost everyone else is dancing around that obvious truth

[entanglement]

27. While they're at it, why not prosecute the news cos for peddling car-chase porn

[karlrschneider]

30. Good point, but it's not 'illegal'.

:shrug:

[Joe Fields]

40. It may have been illegal to not take proper care and precaution while

operating a helicopter, so as not to endanger the public.

[Catherine Vincent]

31. I think so too.

Is this in the law books?

[Blackhatjack]

32. The fact news crews were 'chasing' a suspect and not performing a police function is critical...

The fact that the helicopter crews chose to chase this man in his car has nothing to do with the performance of a law enforcement function, unless the police asked for their assistance.

The decision made to pursue the man for 'the news value' makes this accident a part of the inherent risk of performing their job.

The felony murder rule comes in when you engage in the commission of a felony and someone dies as a result of either your actions or the consequential actions of others engaged in the commission of the felony.

Common law school example: A friend asks you to drive the getaway car during a robbery. He tells you he does not have a gun or knife, no one will get hurt, and he will bluff the clerk to get the money. The friend goes in the store, and kills the clerk by either knife, gun or strikes them with his fist. You are now on the hook for felony murder, even though you had no idea anyone would get hurt.

Change the facts: Friend exits the store with the money, clerk is fine, and friend accidentally shoves a little girl into the street as he is leaving. The little girl is hit by a car and dies. You are both on the hook for felony murder.

In the helicopter case, they made a decision to assume the risk and to follow and engage. I don't see felony murder applying here.

[Faygo Kid]

37. Thank you, Counselor. You go to the head of the class.

I only brought up the principle of felony murder, and little did I know what would result. Your post is exceptional. I will refer all subsequent posts to yours, and let you take responsiblity for every explanation from here on out.

No, don't thank me. My pleasure. Indeed.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. Unless They Were Police Helicopters, The Charges Would Be Insane.

No way in hell those charges should stick. I actually find it a bit disturbing that they'd charge him with that. It's just wrong.

[DFW]

39. The car driver was controlling the choppers with a joystick without a license

You are only allowed to control one chopper at a time from your car while
driving, unless you have a special permit for multiple copters. This guy
obviously didn't have such a permit, caused an accident. No wonder they
arrested him...........

[ProudDad]

41. Total bullshit

I'm speechless... :wtf: :wow:

I know the criminal-injustice system is fucked but this is just wacko...

[KharmaTrain]

44. I See A Bunch Of Wrongful Death Suits Here...

They'll probably be civil suits...against both the TV station and the local air traffic control. While the legal system may think these deaths were cause due to the recklessness of the driver, but I would think a sharp laywer out there...with a nose for money...could press a suit against the station(s) for putting their employees in such a dangerous situation.

For several years a good friend of mine rode the hellicopters during morning and afternoon rush hour...he'd fly in bad weather, with pilots he thought were far from sober or alert and in aircraft that would make all sorts of wierd, scary noises. He joked that every flight was another mission into the unknown. And this is in a market where we don't televise car chases. Even then, the air traffic when you get 5 or more stations in the air with these choppers...along with local and state police...this accident was both inevitable and avoidable.

It'll be interesting to see if this tragedy affects the LA TV stations that have assembled virtual air forces now to go after high speed chases and get to crime scenes first. It's this pressure...to be the first there, to get the best pictures and be the closest to the action that encourages the dangerous flying and I suspect corners regarding safety were cut. Stay tuned...

[WritersBlock]

47. Not against air traffic control. VFR pilots' responsibility to "see and avoid."

ATC wouldn't have been providing separation between the helicopters.

For what it's worth, I've witnessed a few instances where so many news helicopters were swarming over a scene that police aviation units couldn't get close for fear of a mid-air. Sadly, I imagine that's what happened here, but as a poster above stated, we won't know until the NTSB report, if then.

[ljm2002]

46. I agree, that's nuts...

...if it had been police helicopters, they could argue they had to be there because of his actions. But news helicopters were there of their own choice, they did not have to be there.

I feel bad and all -- certainly don't wish something like that on them. It is a tragedy. And yes the driver behaved in a way that endangered others (on the road). I just think it's a stretch to charge him for the helicopter crash, when they were there totally of their own choice: any endangerment was done by them, voluntarily.