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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 11:25 PM
Original message
My life as a useless eater
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 12:13 AM by undergroundpanther
When I was born in an un fortunate family.
We had regular food on the table and our home was a seething cauldron of abuse and pain.Pain we all learned was to be kept a SECRET.

I was the youngest one and I was 'gifted' and creative and transgender..so I couldn't go along with the rules society laid out for"little girls".I thought gender made no sense.I asked too many questions.I rebelled. I never swallowed the idea society was normal.

My father was an asshole,he drank, he stank and he was mean often for no discernible reason.I became one of those people that become very sensitized to my surroundings to protect myself,and even to this day I cannot turn the hyper vigilance off.. When I went to school I had to be on my toes being around all the bullies who hated me for no discernible reasons.All around me these"helpers" shrinks,parents,peers,teachers all of them wanted to pretend I was not getting beat up,sexually abused,and it was all my fault I couldn't be nice and normal like other kids were. They all wanted me to be 'normal' so bad they failed to stand up when I needed them the most..than they blamed me for suffering at the hands of others.

It was very difficult to deal with the bullies in school,bullies on the bus, bullies in my neighborhood and going home to a bully father and a society that tells you it's all your fault you get hurt .It kinda makes you crazy after awhile.

My father was well liked by the town. He knew the local politicians,and all the good ole' boys. He would use his incredible woodworking skills to build his buddies exquisite furniture, while at home unseen by his buddies,our toilet threatened to fall through the floorboards and crash into the basement because he did not fix anything in the house until it was an unavoidable mess.He'd get busted driving drunk and the cops would drive him home he was a good buddy and got off the hook so easy it was disgusting.

We had to pretend everything was normal.And I was taught to lie about our home life.He got off the hook so easy it was disgusting.All this denial of how it was to protect the abusers face and create an illusion to pretend all was good in my house. But unlike the rest of my family I knew damn well there is no such thing as 'normal'. And I knew abuse was sick and it was hurting me.And so I opened my mouth to anyone who might listen.And no one listened.

I kept saying and I was ignored until I could not take it anymore and lost it and it became difficult to cover up the fact I was going crazy from living this lie I was told to live it or else.I learned Abused kids in the republican value system that fears"weakness" would be told to"ignore it" fight or take it and quit whining.But nobody would help.

Back than the nuclear family and the appearance of normal was a game everybody played whether your home was happy or not.It had to LOOK happy...or else.It was a right wing mentality based in a distorted view of strength,'toughness' and Independence.

By time I got taken out of school, and I got locked up, it was not for breaking laws but for not playing make believe and saying and acting as if this world was "good" or "normal".
I found out what"or else" meant.

I didn't care what people thought of me anymore,I was in pain.I didn't bathe enough to not offend sensible noses,and I didn't do as I was commanded to,my grades were all F's and I didn't care anymore.Well meaning control freaks around me wanted to make me agree to appear normal on the outside.To force the issue I was given tons of nasty drugs that didn't work.When drugging me into normalcy failed I got restrained for standing up for myself. I even was locked in a solitary cell like they do to murderers for 18 months.All this torture on top of the torture I already been through was so I'd give up my own ways and re-join society, become a normal and hopefully get a job,someday.

But first I had to be told how to shut up swallow my pain,deny the truth and quit being who I am...Or else.

Since most of my life has been spent dealing with assholes bullies, control freaks and their enablers,life has left me wounded.I can't cope with the shit other people can deal with like it's nothing.Trauma does that to you it removes your ability to cope with hassles.Maybe that's a good thing,even though it feels bad?

Yet to the greedy republicans who's beliefs are hopefully going extinct,whining about their"values" and how liberals are making the culture soft maybe it is time those"values" were retired forever.Maybe some softness to take the sharp edges off this cruel reality we inhabit is not so evil after all.

Sometimes I wonder how my life would have changed, if republican values were seen as an archaic,dangerous, primitive, false belief system by the entire culture?
I can think of a few..

If there was no faith in this"nuclear family " nonsense,I either would have been able to leave my biological family and find another one that was asshole free and thrived,Why? Because instead of the whole town by-standing, they'd be inclined to have empathy for others instead of control.

By other people in positions that could help turning away from someone suffering abuse,at home and being forced to go to a unsafe school, it was a function of the normalcy imperative. In a liberal value based culture "normal" has a more inclusive context,so the teachers would permit themselves to have enough empathy to notice something in my life was causing me pain and injury and they would not be trying to deny it,to save an abusers face and not invade his 'nuclear family and rescue his 'property''.. If they had more empathy than fear of losing their own job,like if they had a decent strong union,they'd have the back up to ACT on that empathy and protect me even if it meant breaking up a nuclear family and invading the man's castle to get me safe.. And if there were no tolerance of abusers of power in this culture the republican family values crowd and their wealthy masters could not be selling society these horrible lies anymore.


Things could have been dramatically better if society was truly progressive when I was growing up.In a society that is not hierarchy focused I would have been cherished as a person first, I would have been looked out for like I was valuable,I may have had a better quality of life from the start. Maybe instead of being locked up and tortured until I played the normal game,I might have been helped,on my terms,and healed sooner.

Instead of people's snotty elitism reminding me since I didn't play the game,get a career I'm nothing. If I didn't straighten up and discipline myself, I'd be a "useless eater". Work or suffer that isn't a choice, it's a threat. But they didn't want to see I was threatened by their world and belief system and the lies fear and coercion that makes them act that way.

Being on disability means I still exist because the state 'hands out' money to me so I can live.Society tells me at every turn I should be ashamed of my own existence. I should try to work and contribute to society. I ask myself what could I contribute that"upstanding"society would value?

Not much. I do contribute to my own kind,but that kind of creativity is not tame enough for the market.At best I'd be condemned to making what people are taught to think they want to make ends meet. Making the same things that sell over and over.And I would in short order call my artistic muse a curse.
I can't do that to myself.

The right wings ideology is based maintaining social hierarchies they think GOD made.I am on the bottom strata of the republican God's order.Among least likely to be a 'chosen one',a vessel of wrath for "normal"society to shit into.. Down here with me in the"useless eater" strata,the the working class resents..We are the bogeyman rich people use to scare working stiffs with,and working stiffs use us to scare their kids into working hard their entire lives.We a are the 'fringe' of the fringe,prostitutes addicts,communists,anarchists, freaks,retarded,bohemians,artists, disabled,mentally ill, and the dreaded homeless.

The right wing believes GOD ordains who is in what social strata.It's like a caste system no body talks about.And the right-wingers no matter how poor they are themselves they ALWAYS call themselves the elite. And to me they are the weakest of us.The real elites the wealthy create the lies that keep society stratified into haves and have nots.And Joe red state is a coat tail rider he believes the lies and says to himself he is one of the elite too..Even when it is obvious he is poor like me.So desperate he is to believe he is worth more than a mere human being.

Among the sort of people who would declare me lazy irresponsible and crazy, I wonder did they live as I did? Maybe, maybe not. All of us are different and life effects us all differently.None of us asked to be born we just came. I didn't choose my family of fuck-ups. Nobody chooses what kind of start they get in life If we could we would all want rich families that treat children well. But sadly not all families treat children well or are stable or wealthy enough to support kids.

Yet we all want to believe we can rise above the shit life slings at us every time.And that is not always true.. Sometimes we can get fabulously wealthy rarely,usually by marrying into a rich family .When we can't get ahead we blame ourselves and if we don't blame ourselves, long, and shamefully enough there are plenty of narcissistic hardworking efficient busybodies looking in who will try to shame us and give us their unwanted advice about our inherent flaws,bad decisions, and shortcomings in the 'success'' department.

The right wing wants us to buy the notion they get to be the elite and so have a right to say to hell with everyone else.Republicans dare not say it that plainly to us because they depend on everyone else to play their game with them and make believe that a stratified society is somehow compatible with democracy.A king without subjects to subject is just an egotistical fool with a crown on.

In a world where we protect each other and if each person mattered as if quality and the uniqueness of life was more important than playing every sperm is sacred, would I be a useless eater today? No, I would be a very different person.
But for me to be that different person.

I needed to be surrounded by a different culture that was egalitarian diverse that shared and took care of all like they all matter too..An Asshole Free Zone.Liberals have done a lot but they haven't taken the big step which is to disbelieve in masters and become intolerant of intolerable people.Liberals have a utopian vision like right-wingers do.On the left it's less toxic but just as unreal.
A society where elitism was seen as evil,where wealth hoarding is a disease and bigotry was sick is a society intolerant of intolerable people..A world where everyone helped everyone to be safe, everyone encouraged to be the best SELF they wanted to become ,in whatever form it took.But a society like that, would cease to be liberal it would be true anarchy.
A culture not built on "normal" or lies or the"market" so it did not have to compete to eat or lie about self to 'fit in' with the'game' and'big picture' would not be the one we have now.A lot of old beliefs and systems of exploitation and utopias have to die before we can get there..

Sadly our culture is too competitive and we are taught by bullies and parents to be fearful of each other and fearful of poverty and diversity to even go there.We are taught to be good means we must BE SOMEBODY,as if it's not ok to be who we are. Society bought into the biggest lie ever told .One that says to WIN we must sacrifice ourself,the other to save ourself,from each other..So if we just do that,we can rise above our little singular human condition if we, grow cold and greedy( a competitive and kill our empathy (shrewed businessman) and step upon the backs of our fellows we coerced into work by ownership exploited with a corporate paper to raise up a fiefdom built by our own greed.We succeed .Than we will be SOMEBODY.Until than we are worthless..This is a horrible "value" to create a society upon.Yet, this"value" is what the "free market" religion of christ the business is built on. Who wants to be a millionaire?

We might become a nation of private clubs just for the worthy ones, gated communities for the well off who can prove they deserve better than everyone else,and fenced lawns of those who aspire look privileged ,but do it on credit enslaved to pampering the ass of the boss man.But do we WANT to live in that kind of neo-feudalism? I know I can't, that's why I am a "useless eater".

As long as we internalize the conservative lies as if they were true we will find a way to cease to hear the cries of the suffering ,and weak,all the abused kids, raped women, gay-bashed gays,killed trans-people and bums,drunk vets,addicts,protitutes...And people will tell themselves lies so they can sleep guilt free in nice homes.Just believe you are better than them and that makes you entitled to a bed and warmth because of having to work..a job grants you privileges. By this virtue of having work ,some people can say of the lower classes, they caused their own problems, those inferiors,outside laying on the steam grates, that crack whores,or that drunk bum..Working class and above can rest easy in this narcissistic delusion of their economic value and never feel guilt or shame over what they helped create with this desire for SELFISH success.

Many people are still doing a dance of abuse of power without realizing they still do it.They are nowhere near as toxic as republicans are however.The ideology of the cutthroat competitor seeking privilege,of being better,we all are seeking to WIN the game.Still holds society in it's mesmeric cage.
People on the left have to learn to see what the game IS first to stop playing it.And sadly a few liberals still benefit from the game to ever see it clearly enough to stop playing it.

If we keep on believing as if one human deserves better than the others , all will be forced to be normal,and we will become a sociopath mono-culture as we all fight each other..On a planet that no one ever really owns but on which everyone depends upon..The game of I am worth more than you, Destroys the sensitive souls, it will drive them insane to enter the grinder of competition and have their heart pounded to dust,when eating becomes a privilege to be earned from somebody else ,instead of a need met by the planet none of us can ever own.To the wounded this stratified culture is hell,to play that game is re-traumatizing.

So for me rather than face re-traumatizing for the rest of my life, I chose to become a useless eater and take the path of less abuse and less success.And for this knowledge of my own limitations I am hated by the successful,resented by the workers, used as an example of satan and failure by the"family values" crowd and seen as the cause of this countries ruin by "free market" types..

To the psychopath , they are the only ones that thrive on a culture of corruption,narcissism and cruelty such as this one.

Is it OK for the poor to suffer so that you may have a chance however slim it really is, to gain outrageous wealth? Do you practice your fantasies of being elite and look down upon the poor and 'useless' and blame them for being poor or broken inside by the random events of life that wound some more deeply than others?

Do you really think a business contract is the same thing as a human to human RELATIONSHIP??!!
Death by success begins with killing your own consience...
And it is terrible how successful we have been at killing our own consciences and hardening our hearts to"get ahead".

At what cost for society are you willing to pay So a few people can have outrageous luxurious lives?
How much are you willing to tolerate suffering for the wealthy to live as they do? Are you willing to let millions of africans iraqis or other brown skinned people far away die? Are you willing to let others be homeless? What about YOU going homeless and blame yourself for it,will you do that for the rich elites so they can keep their decadent lifestyles?? Are you willing to become an indentured servant? A wage slave? A useless eater? How far will you suffer to keep the conservative lies alive? It is a very important question to ask.

The other important question we all need to ask is how much is enough for one person to have?

What is the opinions of the millions who try hard but never achieve enough to relax and live worth? What about those who never had a chance what are they worth? Are they supposed to love a society that treats them like scum for existing and needing care like everyone else does?
Should all us useless eaters just eat cake ,keep our mouths shut about the nasty man behind the curtain putting on a show,telling us all lies so we believe we have to play his way or suffer.

Will the dream of success ever stop enchanting us to fight each other? Will we ever lose faith in those conservative "values" that destroy us one by one from the inside out as we die behind a mask of normality? Will we ever break the bars of belief that only exist in the words of elitists and inside our own heads?






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Lindsay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. May I please just say
that I love you?

What you say is so true and so important - and so painful to read because it reminds me of some of what I've gone through. And you're facing the questions with a great deal more courage than I have been able to gather.

Thank you for taking the thought and time to write this.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Hugs back to ya!
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is truely beautiful and brilliant thinking.
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 12:37 AM by Gregorian
Damn. You have experienced ugliness. And yet through it I see rays of beauty and brilliance beyond compare. And how twisted this society is. Privacy is another word for abuse. Freedom can be an excuse for irresponsibility. And carelessness.

I cannot do your post justice in my reply. All I can do is gaze at it with great respect.


Edit- I usually downplay or hide my suffering from these things. I know and have suffered from the very same things. Watching a cruel society that willingly destroys human happiness. I didn't mean to make my post sound like someone looking from the outside in at you. I too have suffered immensely. But I keep it hidden. I hide it. Because it wasn't as bad as what other people have gone through. But I got a glimpse at the least. I too was an underdog.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Gregorian I always have respected you too you know..
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
56. We can't compare suffering. We only lose each other doing that.
Your suffering is just as bad to you as mine is to me, as undergroundpanther's is to undergroundpanther.

Suffering isn't a hierarchy.

I'm sorry for what you've gone through, but mostly for your need to "hide" it.

What we really need most of all is each other. It's all we have. The rest of society doesn't give a rip.

The only disagreement I have with the poster is to lay it all on "republics". "Liberals" have no use for us either, and that hurts even worse!

Please be very good to yourself, and

:hug:
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #56
77. This is true
Those who hate love more than they do love are no freinds of humanity, and it doesen't matter who it is .But they have the same effects on humans that can love ..pain.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #77
119. "But they have the same effects on humans that can love ..pain."
So exactly right!

This is the basis of not only hate groups, but war and all the afflictions humans put on each other.

You have talked a lot about being there for those of us who have been hurt so badly by this rotten system. It's also something I've thought a lot about, and talked about for years now.

After 20 years, I've come back to a book that deeply affected me 20 years ago: "Community And Growth", by Jean Vanier. He talks about us, "the least of these", and how we are only able to grow and thrive in the presence of love, acceptance, and respect. He also talks about how our knowledge we've gained from being on the bottom of the ladder is a gift to those who choose to listen.

He is a French-Canadian Catholic, and has lived in community for all these years, and is very spiritual. I don't know where you are on that, and that part may not be for you, but what he says about us and about community is RIGHT ON.

I have since subscribed to his daily messages, and he puts out some gems.
http://www.larche.ca/en/home/eletters/

I don't know whether that fits for you, but I can tell you that you are definitely on the right track when you talk about bringing people together. The system is too far broken to fix--we have to stop relying on it, and help each other!
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thank you for this post.
It pretty much says everything about Republicans, their sick ideology, and how much harm it has done to so many good people.
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Stargazer99 Donating Member (943 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. You see much better when you are looking from the bottom to the
up. One has less tendancy to deny what is right in front of them. I read your post with fascination as you express so deeply what I feel. I have always felt when talking to a Republican and trying to express my frustration at not being able to make my life better because certain things are not available to me and all I get is this Oh? from the conservative. Not what in the hell are we doing that gets you into this spot but an indifference as to the reasons and dynamics why some people are not successful. A lot of it has to do with the system...a system they don't want to really look at.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. And it's not just republicans
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 12:37 AM by undergroundpanther
People even on DU sound almost republican..The shit flies when someone who they think should be poor gets something nice.
Here comes the pontificating patronizing outrage THEY don't DESERVE to have that! How DARE those people in debt, poor,or whatever people be so FRIVOLOUS!! They don't have the right to be happy, they can't have anything nice how DARE they spend money on non essentials!

I have seen posts like that here and they just make me sick.
Self righteous "frugalist" busybodies have no idea the way poverty grinds another person without their temperament down.

For some the stress and despair this system of who deserves and who doesen't..causes them alot of pain.

In our culture everyone has a price tag on their head.

I hate it when politicians start saying, oh to deserve benefits one must work for it.Play carrot and stick to survive on the generosity of the greedy..What these political assholes don't get is the SYSTEM kills..And it is the same sick system that makes them so comfortable. So rather than change the system that's working so well for THEM,they blame the victim just like people do in an abusive home to save face of an abusive asshole's face.

And to some,if someone poor has ANYTHING nice they must be the Satan of irresponsibility.Truth is they might be saying fuckitall the system is killing me, I have no time, my kids are stressed my relationships suck and I feel sick,I might as well live a little on credit because I will never have a chance to escape this treadmill anyway.Live before this stress and depression kills me.So they buy something frivolous.

The cardinal sin for poor people is..Thou must suffer and thou must not EVER have an expensive item in thou house you haven't saved 25 years for... Thou must have hand me downs and crappy everything.Thou must suffer until you get off thine ass and accept the carrot and stick until than thou art evil in the eyes of the lords.

It's so easy to judge others faults from "above " isn't it?

That kind of shit really pisses me off.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
59. Who is greedy though?
Isn't a person who wants to only consume while others work to create what they consume also guilty of some greed? Especially if they want to consume more? I see it alot in people here who make $100,000 a year and then say 'but I'm not rich'. Because housing is really expensive in many places that can be kinda true, but often in those same places there are lots of people making $20,000 or $45,000 a year and the $100,000 person simply is much richer than them.

I think we all could be happier, in general, if we would co-operate and share more and not be so greedy, lazy and wasteful. Sometimes I think the system is not as bad as the nasty people in it. Unfortunately, in too many ways, the system rewards and encourages nastiness.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
60. THANK YOU! It exists with DU, with "liberals", and with "aware"
people everywhere!

So many liberals still spew Reagan shit, including on DU, and think they know everything there is to know about poverty.

They have lost the ability to HEAR, they have lost COMPASSION.

As Michael Moore says at the end of SICKO, "Who ARE we?!"
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
96. "I understand poverty because I was broke in grad school" syndrome
Because eating ramen noodles for two years when you're in your 20s makes you the authority on what people who face systemic and structural prejudice and who are denied economic and educational opportunities their entire lives go through.

There was this one thread way back, and I think you weighed in on it, undergroundpanther, where the issue of obesity among poor people was being discussed. Most of us were talking about how hard it is to maintain a healthy weight and get in shape when you can't afford or lack access to nutritious food and opportunities to exercise. But of course a few clueless asshats had to weigh in with their scorn, complete with perfect anecdotes about how they were able to follow a balanced, macrobiotic, organic eating regimen for $5 a week. I swear, some of them must have gotten friction burns from pulling their bootstraps up so high. :eyes:

And I definitely hear it all the time IRL. One common chestnut is how "poor people just spend all their money on cigarettes, booze, and drugs anyway." What pisses me off about that is the implication that lower income people indulge in those habits more, which is not necessarily the case. They just have to spend more of their hardearned money in the pursuit of mind alteration, as has been a human drive across practically every society for thousands of years. Shit, gawd knows if anyone deserves to escape reality for a while, it's poor folks. But you have these pious judgemental pricks, including in this so-called progressive board, tut-tutting about how they should be more "responsible" and "make healthier choices" and other bullshit. Meanwhile, Paris Fucking Hilton can enjoy her cocktails and ciggies, since she's such a productive contributor to society, right? :eyes:
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Stargazer99 Donating Member (943 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
5. Com on monitor my reply ain't that bad
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
7. K&R
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
10. Moving and powerful...
:hug:
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
11. I, too, was bullied incessantly as a child and suffered emotional abuse at
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 01:15 AM by Lorien
home. I know why I was bullied nonstop at every school I attended (even a school for the "gifted"); I had a facial deformity, I was speech impaired, I was either overweight or far too thin, I had braces, I had thick glasses, I was shy...kids are cruel to anyone who is different, as are many adults. For over two decades I've worked as a professional artist, and in no way do I feel marginalized or stigmatized. I've been so poor that I lived in a basement in a ghetto on Ramen noodles for several years, and I've also had a six figure income. I'm not embarrassed or ashamed by either. I was successful in the corporate world and I never stepped on anyone to achieve my success. The principles in Dale Carnegie's classic "How to win friends and influence people", along with hard work, got me where I wanted to be without harming a soul. In fact, I brought many up behind me. Many of my business contacts are also close friends. Some of them are people whom I've known for more than 20 years, and I can honestly say that I love several of them.

The successful are not all evil. The wealthy are not always the enemy (if that were so, then we wouldn't stand behind a single candidate). Consumerism, in my view, is the driving force behind the ugliness in our culture. "Live simply so that others may simply live" is a radical concept to many. Consumerism teaches us that too much is never enough, that no one is ever beautiful enough, sexy enough, thin enough, fashionable enough...it's a concept that is advanced through the belief that we are all lacking and we will not fit in unless we possess "item X". It creates a culture built on fear. Republicans buy into it more than any other group because they've been raised on fear; they believe in the wrathful God, not a kind, loving, accepting and egalitarian God. Their thinking is always driven by fear, which creates hatred. They fear and loathe anything outside of their narrow view of how things should be, and how things should be is driven by the MSM, which is driven by...consumerism.

There are three elements to human happiness, and none involve "stuff": 1.) human relationships, 2.) contact with nature, and 3.) personal creativity (which could be art, writing, teaching, volunteer work, etc.). Success can often come from the third item on the list, in which case it can bring about a great sense of personal fulfillment that goes beyond the monetary rewards. There's nothing wrong with that. Finding ones place in the world today isn't easy, but if we turn off the TVs and look around we might discover that we're far from being the only happily (or unhappily) "abnormal" ones out there.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
61. "Liberals" have just as much fear. They just aren't honest about it.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
80. Yes
But liberals despite thier dishonesty about fear and love,and such..They try not to hurt others deliberatelyin general, they wound people more out of ignorance and ignorance about what it means to be poor or whatever than calculated hate.
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Anser Donating Member (200 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
12. Makes me who I am...
I don't know.

You've been through some bad stuff. As have I. But I've sort of done it, to an extent. The whole " American dream " thing. You know, the wet dream where sex is replaced with greed. The one where the little guy makes it big.

But do I like the new me? Wasn't I a little bit more aware back then? More passionate, perhaps. More angry.

But the anger and the passion have faded. I can call them up still of course, like old friends. They may even come for a visit from time to time.

So there it is, the clishe, looming large. "You have to suffer to understand." Many great artists and thinkers had to struggle before their spark of brilliance ignited. So poetic. Pathetic, that is. Do we really need to stick our hand in the fire just to know it is hot? Isn't it enough to see others burned?

I've suffered. I've thought big thoughts. Now things are getting easier, my life emptier. My heart was once so filled with empathy for my fellow humans. Now, I just want to take myself out of the game. The right wing ideal, look out for number 1. Get enough for me and mine and go someplace quiet where I can think and create as I please. Is it selfish? Yes. Do I have justifications? Plenty. Is there really that many other options to live a free life in our current society? I haven't thought of any.

So I guess I'm wondering, are we high minded idealists? Or is it as Nicholson's character in the movie "As good as it gets" says in response to Helen Hunt's character saying "We all have these terrible stories to get over" :

"It's not true. Some have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good."



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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
13. "how much is enough for one person to have?"
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 01:41 AM by IChing

Ta Yu
#14-Ta Yu symbolizes having great possessions indeed.


"A magnanimous, liberal-minded man should not regard
what he possesses as his exclusive personal property ,
but should place it at the disposal of the ruler
or of the people at large.

In so doing, he takes the right attitude toward his
possession, which as private property can never endure.
A petty man is incapable of this.

He is harmed by great possessions, because instead of
sacrificing them, he would keep them for himself."

I liked your post.

On edit forgot to nominate it.
:) :thumbsup:
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
49. Love the Iching
In made my own Iching coins,Out of brass discs and enamel..One side is etched with Black panthers and the other with white panthers.The change line coin is an ankh of Black and white on grey /or technicolored ankh on black/white.Annointed with Yarrow oil before use.
They work really well too.Brass makes a delightful noise when they are thrown too.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:39 AM
Response to Original message
14. group hug~!
:grouphug:

i've been known to soothe myself to sleep thinking we are all living in hell and torment drips unto each of us, in a slow, grinding, perfectly tailored, excruciating, inescapable nightmare of reality. such a lullaby is in the spirit of the wisdom of jim morrison that no one gets out of here alive. i just find reactionary types like republicans are far more comfortable with this negative material plane -- but then i also find that their souls tend to have difficulty leaving. thinking of their afterlife being continually reborn into this hell tends to bring a much needed smile to my face.
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
15. Favorite quote by Lao Tzu
The greatest calamity is in not knowing how much is enough.



UP, your question raises some potent issues. How much is enough...and who gets to make that determination?

I wish you peace.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
52. We all do
When a few of us are incapable of saying when is enough to the point it harms the well being of many..I think we must take control of their decision on how much they can take because if we do not limit them we will have nothing left to live on.
Greed has no conscience.Nor does apathy.

It is very destructive to think greed is good.And it is crazy to hoard things and make eating or health care a commodity,because these things we all help make and we all have a right to taste the fruits of our efforts, but not a right to hoard it until people suffer,and call needs and the means to survive commodities..
If an alpha wolf in a wolf pack denied the pack the prey they all took the alpha wolf would be destroyed by the pack for threatening the pack's survival.

WE have forgotten this.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
16. I couldn't read it all.
The painful memories began to flood back.

Sigh.

I hear ya.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
101. Me too! Welcome to my FORMER world...it was hell! nt
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
17. You're one of our shining stars.
I felt many things reading your experiences and wondered why psychologists haven't made a study of the right-wing culture before now because it certainly appears that they're largely to blame for the dysfunctional society we have today. It's not just what happened in your immediate family, but how the good ole boy network contributed to it and reinforced it by enabling your father.

To most minorities, this idea that they think they're born to a privileged class comes across quite apparently. So I appreciate that you would share that personal insight with everyone.

And, from my own personal experiences with right-wing abusive manners, I understand that sometimes, withdrawal from a dysfunctional society is the best recourse. You might want to read some I-Ching because, just the explanation of what it means gave me some relief. The short of it: Withdraw to gather your strength, and wait for a better time to take action.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
62. Blaming it on the "right wing" insures its continuance.
We all have to begin to look at ourselves, and to listen to each other.

Blaming it "out there" isn't going to cure anything. Liberals have just as much shit when it comes to poverty!
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #62
74. You've got to identify the source, first. And the Liberals haven't been
in control of anything in the last generation or so.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #74
104. Liberals have hurt poor people just as much!
Denial isn't going to get us anywhere.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #104
112. I guess I cannot agree with you because my experience was so
vastly different. You don't escape abject poverty in one generation without some benign hand helping you out. I thank the Democrats and Liberals for that, in that order.

However, I do have a beef or two with Liberals, just not along the same lines as yours.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. Experience makes a world of difference.
Edited on Tue Jul-31-07 12:25 PM by bobbolink
However, I would ask you to start watching what happens to threads about poverty here.

I would ask you to watch the number of people who actually respond to pleas to take action. It's pretty sad.

"You don't escape abject poverty in one generation without some benign hand helping you out."

I read this "you" to mean me, personally. I wasn't born poor... I was born middleclass. Some of us have all kinds of hell happen in our lives, and fall through the cracks.

But, if you meant the *nation*, I would remind you that things have gone backwards. So many liberals think there are so many programs to help people like me. There used to be. No more.

HUD has been cut over 65% in 25 years. That has left a terrible gap in the number of people who desperately need a decent place to live, and the number of those places available. There is ZILCH for poor folk with no children. We have been quite effectively told that there is no use for us. (Hence the name of the thread... useless eaters.)

I have yet to attend a liberal meeting where the issue of poverty is brought up, and if I bring it up myself, there is no interest, and sometimes downright hostility. So, if that fits in with your definition of how much better liberals do, then we are clearly on different tracks.

edited to add: many times I've BEGGED DUers to pleeeeez write and call about having the fairly recent Medicaid cuts reversed. Hardly any response. Having medical care for poor folk isn't much of a priority here. Do you hear it raised that much?
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #114
120. Keep fighting.
With Edwards, Moore and Obama making an issue of it, they're bound to trip over some angle that will resonate with the mainstream.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #120
124. I, personally, have nothing left to fight with.
INcluding at DU.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. I know what you mean.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. .
:hug:
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #114
129. Poverty will become more and more of an issue
as more people are affected by this "strong economy". People are losing their homes, their jobs, and health care. It is a bi-partisan issue when it hits middle class America. Republicans are magically transformed into liberals when they lose all those things that they've taken for granted for years. Catastrophic illness, death of a spouse, outsourced job, etc., not the individual's fault, can create a sudden appreciation for those dastardly government programs that they wanted to get rid of.

Hey, if you lack compassion for another human being, you could be doomed to walk in their shoes some day (not meaning "you" personally!).
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-01-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. And if that's what it takes, many of us won't feel too much for them.
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-01-07 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. True
And they can build that character and self-reliance they like to rant about. It ain't so romantic when you actually have to live it!

I just got on the Internet and was pleased to see that the first discussion on the home page was about "class warfare". You were right that this is an issue that needs to be addressed more often. Poverty is a cancer on society and can bring a civilization down.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-01-07 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. Thank you so very much, tsegat01!! I'm very down now about the lack of liberal
caring and concern for those of us in poverty, and your words help very much!

" You were right that this is an issue that needs to be addressed more often. Poverty is a cancer on society and can bring a civilization down."

Thank you, thank you, thank you! When I see people on DU call themselves "useless eaters" and "throwaway persons", I don't know whether to cry or rage. How can we be abandoned this way? Why is it so difficult to advocate for us?

Thank you. Your words mean so much.

:hug:
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-01-07 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #132
137. Your welcome
I believe it was you who wrote that you were raised middle class as I was, but most of my adult life has been a struggle. I often felt worthless, but I knew on some level that I was a valuable person, not just for things I "did", but for who I "was". It was an ongoing internal battle to come to the acceptance that I have a place in the world. Each person is part of the organism called humanity. Each life has value and if we devalue one, we devalue ourselves. Jesus tried to teach that, but evidently a lot of people skipped that lesson!

Back in the "wonderful" eighties, so many people got left behind. Homelessness was rampant and many of my friends were on welfare, as I was for several years. They were not parasites and losers. They were struggling to sustain the most basic lifestyle - food, clothing, shelter, and health care. Their sins? Being laid off from their jobs, being abused by an alcoholic spouse, getting sick, etc. Their lives and privacy would be invaded by social services, amid threats of losing their children. They often were humiliated and degraded for wanting to survive. The nineties brought some relief and I saw many of their lives stabilize, but I fear we are heading toward an era that will rival the Great Depression. Perhaps it is a necessary cycle to wake people up from their consumerism driven complacency and be reminded that they are as human as that person they looked down upon yesterday.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-01-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #131
133. Welcome to DU, tsegat01!
I didn't notice you are new..... I hope to read much more from you!

:toast: :hi: :toast:
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-01-07 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #133
138. Not really new....
DU has been in my bookmarks for years, but I just started posting recently. I have my favorite sites that I check every day and lately DU has been one. I really enjoy the discussions which are far more insightful than other sites. It helps to verbalize your thoughts and connect with like-minded people.

So think I'll hang around!!!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-01-07 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #131
134. Could you tell me where that "class warfare" thread is? I don't see it.
Thanks!
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-01-07 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #134
136. War!!!!
That's the subject. I thought it was about Iraq at first. Very good post with a lot of responses.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #62
81. True bobbolink
But the republicans believe in a feudalistic hierarchy they say god created and put republicans there to lead it.Liberals at least don't believe in the divine right of kings as if it was reality,and do things to force that belief to be true even when reality proves them wrong.Republicans do that.They wish and push thier psychotic desires upon others as if that makes it right.

Liberals do it too but in less toxic ways.Less toxic motives..
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #81
103. Toxic is toxic, and still hurts.
It's like diplomacy... blaming it all on one side only leads to war.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #81
115. Hurt and damage is hurt and damage.
Edited on Tue Jul-31-07 12:23 PM by bobbolink
I don't first ask the philosophy of someone who hurts me.

I just remove myself as soon as possible.

edited to add: I find it sad that we have to settle for "less toxic" rather than life affirming!
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JudyM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
18. What a touching post, undergroundpanther. Calling our emotional desensitization like it is.
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 08:36 AM by JudyM
Part of the horror for me of the abuses of power in the */dick administration is the fact that they are not met with mass outrage but with quiet acceptance, as if that's just the way things go, or every-man-for-himself is an acceptable ethic. Tax breaks for the wealthy and the oil companies, no-bid, no-oversight contracts for Halliburton et al despite the inherent conflicts of interest with Cheney et al, all this shouts loudly a complete disregard for taking care of each other. It's social darwinism carried to the extreme and even many of those on 'our side of the aisle' are tacitly supporting this.

Point is, this stench of selfish callousness at the top seeps into the rest of society and rather than moral leadership that urges us to be good to each other, it makes people more determined to watch out for themselves and to get whatever they can even at others' expense.

Wishing you peace, and glad that you're in our community.

:hug:
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mithnanthy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
19. Thank you for sharing your story.
(I too, can relate). I'm sending this to my Republican friends, in HOPES of enlightening them. That's a tall order, for sure. Stay strong.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
20. I was raised like this too....
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 10:03 AM by TwoSparkles
...and I hope you keep talking about this, processing it and healing forward. You truly deserve it. Many who endure
pasts like this become abusers or they remain too traumatized to heal. It just hurts too much to face the pain. You've
"crossed the bridge"...you acknowledge the abuse, you recognize your pain and you are attempting to make a life for
yourself, in spite of your horrible background.

I agree with you that people around abused people just want a "normal kid". I was sexually abused and I can
spot a victim a mile away. It's a curse, especially when I do volunteer work in my children's first and second-grade
classes. There are a few very angry children in these classes who hit the teacher and display intense rage. I've
met their parents and I know exactly what is going on in their houses. The teachers treat these children as "behavioral
problems". These children are disciplined--as if they are being angry because they don't understand the rules. They
are drugged. The underlying issues are ignored. One child was putting her hands down other kids' pants. She had
my daughter (and other children as well) in a sophisticated abuse cycle, where she would entice them into friendships,
for the express purpose of biting them, hitting them and causing them pain.

I see signs of sexual abuse in many situations--and it's awful to see the people around these children completely oblivious.
Mothers of these children, who have been sexually abused themselves, and have not acknowledged their pain--are the
most destructive. They bury their own pain, hook up with men who are like their abusers, and they block out their children's
pain. So, the cycle continues...

I was sexually abused by my father, and his best friend--a police officer--who had organized some kind of child pornography
ring. like you, I have PTSD. My parents were staunch, conservative, religious Republicans. LIke you said, appearances
are everything in families like this. You must look and play the part that helps them the most. It's the lies that kill you.
The abuse is awful, but being forced to stuff a mountain of rage, loss, sorrow, shame and guilt is what turns your brain
inside out. I've been in intensive therapy for four years now. I know I've broken the cycle of abuse, and I know that is
no small feat. However, the pain and the fallout of sexual abuse seems never ending.

I was adopted at birth as well. Supposedly a teenage mom. For a long time I felt as if I was an orphan...because I cut off
my adoptive parents, and I will not contact my birth mom--I wouldn't want to cause her pain. However, I now believe
that I am a child of the universe. I may not have parents, but I can create a family for myself--which I have done with
my husband, my children, close friends, neighbors and others.

All abused children are children of the universe. Our parents were not there for us. We had to be there for us. When
we recognize that we control our own destiny---and that the world belongs to us---and that our past does not own
us and control us-----we can begin the path to freedom, Independence and self actualization.

Panther, as you work through your pain and make your way in the universe, I wish you peace, love and light--and the
continued recognition that you belong in the world---and you belong to the world------not to people who were
psychologically incapable of recognizing your true beauty.

Godspeed....
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
99. Children of the Universe
I have been involved in the adoption community for many years now and sadly I have to say that I've heard such stories before. Many would say that adoption is not political, but I have found that it is. It is through our elected representatives that adoption is legislated, producing laws that keep adoptees from the truth of their heritage.

Adoptees live a lifetime of searching for their identity and most laws protect the rights of the adoptive parents, not those of the adoptee or first parent. As both an adoptee and a first mother, I can assure you that it is highly unlikely that you could cause your mother any more pain than she has already experienced. The majority of mothers truly want to know what became of their lost children and need to know that they are okay. Many search for their children actively, while others have been conditioned to believe they have no right to know. As I was adopted myself, I wanted my son to know his roots and the circumstances surrounding his adoption if it was his desire. I made myself available if that day ever arose and fortunately for both of us, he did want to know.

I told my son one day that my biggest fear was that I would find a right-wing, fundamentalist republican! He laughed, as he is every bit as liberal as I am, in spite of his conservative upbringing. I have seen over and over again that genetics trump environment and we cannot deny our biological origins. Though adoption may be a viable solution for some, it is not as simplistic as many people would believe. You cannot take a unique individual and just drop them into to a seemingly stable environment and expect the child to prosper, especially if the child's origins are considered insignificant. Because adoption has become a money-making business, the welfare of both the adoptee and the mother often takes a backseat to profit. In this country we buy and sell babies for money, and make it altruistic. Because many prospective adoptive parents are not thoroughly vetted beyond their bank account, stories of emotional and physical abuse are not uncommon.

Many adoptees and first mothers do not search because they are afraid of rejection, something they are far too familiar with. They say they don't want to interfere in their loved ones life or cause them pain, but inside the longing to "know" is very powerful. It is built-in to our being. I write this to you only to let you know, that if you have a desire to find your roots, you DO have the right to your own history, just as other people do. If you are are comfortable with your decision, I understand, but know that a day hasn't gone by that your mother hasn't thought of you. Unless she is in complete denial (not uncommon, as she has also experienced PTSD), she would welcome the opportunity to at least know that you are alive and well.

I searched, though not aggressively, and when my son was ready he was able to find me easily. Though the pain of my loss will never die completely, a cloud has been lifted from my life and my son knows he was and always will be loved.

So if you feel you have a desire to "know", trust those feelings. You have a right to know who you are and where you came from, as do your children. Your friends can get a copy of their original birth certificate. They know who their parents are and their grandparents. You deserve the same. Discrimination against adoptees has been prevalent for many years and we have been marginalized by society for far too long.

I don't regret my path. I too feel like a "child of the Universe" and there are many paths I may not have taken if my life had been different, but I do have a compulsive desire for the truth. I accept who I am and where I've been, but I will not let society dictate to me what I can or cannot know about myself.

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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #99
105. Thank you for your post...
I appreciate you sharing your own story with us. It is wonderful that you and your
son were reunited, and that you both benefited from knowing one another. I can only
imagine what that was like!

I'm really glad that things worked out positively for you, and that your son is doing well
The fact that he is a liberal, is a nice bonus! ;)

I'm thinking about everything you said, and I'm still taking it in. It's nice to know that
my "first mom" (I like that terminology!) has thought about me and would want to know me.
That might be true.

My therapy has led me to wonder though--if my adoption was even legitimate. As I mentioned
earlier, my father sexually abused me as well as his best friend--a police officer. The cop
ran a pedophile ring. My father met this cop and I was adopted shortly after. My parents
said they adopted me because they were unable to have kids, but they went on to have three
other children. My birtdate on my adoption papers does not match the birthday on my birth
certificate. My parents supposedly adopted me through an attorney. When I asked them if
I could search--they told me the attorney, the doctor who delivered me and anyone else who
knew anything was dead. My parents initially told me that she was a teenage, unwed mother.
However, a couple of times, my mother said she was older and married and would get very upset.

My parents have always said that my first Mom "went back to California" after she had me, to
return to her life. I found someone with my first Mom's name in California and I told my
parents I was thinking about contacting her. My mom kept insisting that this wasn't her. I
got the feeling that the "returning to California" story was bogus. There seems to be a lot
of pain surrounding my adoption, when it comes to my mother. It's deeper than the usual
hurt an adoptive parents may feel when a child searches.

Given the abuse I endured, I question everything. Maybe the adoption was legitimate and I'm
reading too much into things. However, taking into consideration that my parents involved me
in a pedophile ring run by a cop--and that I was abused by untold numbers of people from a very
young age--I question everything, including my adoption.

I guess I'm scared to turn over that rock. I'm on fairly stable ground right now--with a
supportive, loving husband and two beautiful children and a rich, full like. I savor every
moment and I'm astounded by how much I've overcome and how fortunate I am.

You've given me some things to think about though, that's for sure. :hug:

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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #105
110. I'm glad I didn't offend you
I was concerned after I wrote the post that I may have said too much. I am relieved that you took it as it was intended. Sharing adoption experiences has been very healing for me and others.

I think you are right to doubt the stories your adoptive parents told you. I heard enough questionable stories from my parents that I can generally smell the bogus ones. They were generally well rehearsed and were intended to slam shut any doors that I may have wanted to explore. They were naive to believe that a child cannot sense when she is being lied to. Most of the mysteries died with them unfortunately, but I did find my father's family which filled in some of the gaps. From my adoptive parents' dishonesty I did learn to be totally honest with my own children. I was determined to end the legacy of lies and as a result I have a close and open relationship with all three of my adult children.

Your fears are understandable and you are the best judge of what you can handle. I've gotten very upset with people who advise others to "search" or to be more aggressive in their search. I personally had to search very passively for my son, as I knew that I could not handle rejection. I knew my limitations and I could not risk losing the emotional stability that I had fought so hard to attain. Searching for me became a journey of self-discovery and "finding" my son was the icing on the cake. I learned that pain does not go away, but it is something that we can live with if it is brought out in the open and acknowledged as real. My losses are as much a part of me as my joys, and do not need to be denied or hidden. They will always be there, but they no longer creep up unexpectedly and overwhelm me. Now instead of an erupting volcano of emotions, I experience more of a gentle sadness that does not debilitate me and scare the crap out of those who love me!

You truly are fortunate. Many do not find the fulfillment that you have. Hopefully some day you will find your answers, in your own way and your own time. I believe that if we live consciously, we are irresistibly attracted that which is ours.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #110
126. Thank you for your...
...wisdom and insight.

I truly appreciate it.

I know that someday I will search, probably taking the route that you did. I like your description "passively" searching.
I will most likely request my non-identifying information, and I'll see where that leads.

It's very difficult. I've been through so much in therapy. It was like emotional chemotherapy. Four years of
intensive work...unraveling PTSD and feeling emotions that I had buried for decades. I feel I'm on stable ground,
and a part of me is afraid to open a door that may lead to more pain. Maybe in the near future, I might be
ready.

I applaud your for your own search and your commitment to honesty. You are right...children know when they're being
fed lies. It only leads to more confusion and insecurity. I don't understand why adoptive parents would chose dishonesty.
It's an insult to the adoptee, and it feels inhumane. I suspect that children who are told lies, feel that something
is wrong--and many times they end up feeling as if something is wrong with them--because they cannot put their finger
on the troubled feelings they have. It's wrong to saddle a child with that.

You've learned from some bad experiences and have shared your knowledge with your children. That's wonderful.

Thanks for listening and for helping me to put some good thoughts in the back of my brain--as my search sits
on the back burner. :hug:
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #126
128. You nailed it!
Lying to an adoptee only reinforces a belief that there is something wrong with the adoptee. One's imagination can go berserk - "my mother is insane and I've inherited it", "father is a convicted serial killer", "I come from a family of drug addicts and/or alcoholics", etc. After all, why would one's parents lie if there wasn't anything wrong? For me, the lies indicated that they did not trust me to be able to handle my own truth and that I would be an unstable child for my entire life.

Now I believe the answers were far less sinister. There was a certain amount of guilt that they were not prepared to admit and fear that I would hold them accountable. Little did they realize that I stored every word they said in my mind and periodically played them back. Too many things did not match and they had to add lies to lies in an attempt to hold the stories together. I also know that certain corners were cut that made the adoption not completely legal, and I think they feared retribution from possibly my father. For me the main issue is that they kept something that was uniquely "mine" from me, meanwhile making me feel neurotic for wanting to know. "Just put it behind you and get on with your life!" The same attitude was prevalent when I gave my child up, as if the loss of a child were just a minor pothole in life.

I accept that there are things I will never know. Instead of dwelling on what my parents didn't give me, I made an effort to give those things to my children. I always longed to be the whole person I believe lives within me, but now I am content to say I am "better" and next week I may be better than today and that is saying a lot considering where I've been in the past.

When you are ready, you'll know and if you're never ready, that's okay too. You've created the family you never had and not everyone can say that.

I've really enjoyed our discussion and look forward to talking to you any time!

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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
21. Best post I've read in ages
Thank you for what you've written, U.P.

Sometimes there is no other possible response to the kind of abuses you experienced than to "go crazy." It is the correct and normal response. It means you have completely stopped being a part of their poisonous games - that you've stepped out of their so-called "normal" world and created your own normal. You made a decision to survive on your own terms, not theirs. All the shame is on them, not you.

To me, you are a determined survivor. And now you are reaching out and sharing the enormous insight you have acquired in the process. And it is immensely valuable to us all.

Far from being a "useless eater," (What kind of ugly mind came up with that vicious epithet? We are all human and every single one of us deserves food and water and shelter and care and love) you are valuable just for yourself. I am a Unitarian Universalist, and one of our core beliefs is in the inherent worth and dignity of every person.

But beyond that, you, like a shaman, have traveled to the other realms and brought back great wisdom. You have begun to share it. You will teach us.

love and blessings,
LibE
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. I agree Liberal.
thank you for your post too....from a fellow UU.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. There is history behind the useless eater

Far from being a "useless eater," (What kind of ugly mind came up with that vicious epithet?

Nazis.

http://clublet.com/why?TheHolocaustAccordingToPsychohistory
http://www.geocities.com/newageinternational/Depopulation1.html
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
22. I feel for you Panther. You should have raised yourself like I did.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
23. Good morning with a hug
:pals:
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
46. Hug back at cha With a puurr
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 02:25 PM by undergroundpanther
Good morning..Out here it was a thunderous morning.The lightning looked like a rave party going on outside. Cool.But you can't dance to the beat of random thunderings all that easy..LOL.
Sekhmet was dancing out there though.She puts out a hellova lighshow!(I looove storms,better than prozac)
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Storms can have that effect
I remember huddling on the living room floor with a huge, shivering dog under one arm and a couple of cats in my lap. Living on a hill at high altitude made those some fun times.

Keep dancin' no matter what!
.......... ...........
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
24. Very insightful
So glad they didn't beat the brilliance out of you!

:hug: :hug: :hug:

I too have emerged from a place that instilled hyper-vigilance in me. Nothing but hugs and encouragement from me to you dear.

Julie
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
25. Certain people NEED to read this. K+R
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
26. Thank you for sharing this. n/t
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1620rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. So many of us are with you Underground panther, God bless.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
27. "A useless eater"?
"I ask myself what could I contribute that "upstanding" society would value?"

First recognize that an upstanding society would be one that values every member, and recognizes all kinds of gifts and talents.

You contribute mightily to this society. Your talent of expression helps all those who have suffered what you have, and felt the same way and are unable to put it into words.

Thank you.

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. I put "upstanding" in quotes
Because the only upstandingness as our culture presents it,is fake,I see in this culture the ones called upstanding are the ones allowed to be left standing up because they're the"beautiful people and no one dares knock them down..

Seems to me,the real upstanding ones are the ones this world has beaten the crap out of and they can't get up..
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
28. "Worthless Eaters" is libertarian kook-speak.
Just saying....
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. Libertarians didn't invent the phrase
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 02:11 PM by undergroundpanther
The Social Darwinists did. And Hitler used it.
The business loving libertarians have too much sympathies with fascists, they are not about liberty.


Anarchists are a totally different creature .It is very important to understand the distinctions between libertarians and true anarchists.IF you want to cut through some of the bullshit abusers of power say. Anarchy is not lawlessness. Anarchy is anti authoritarian.Anti Arch,or Anti Archon from the Greek word for master or state rulers..who abuse power.
http://a4a.mahost.org/reason.html
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
30. UP*** My words are trivial when reading yours.
What an amazing, core grabbing post.

You have found a way to express so eloquently the thoughts I have almost every day.

Thank you for all your contributions to DU, your compassion and generosity in sharing this with us.

You are so insightful.

You have a tremendous gift and ability to share with others.

Please continue to use it, and God forbid, I don't like the monetary system any more than you do, but if you can get paid for it, as you should, then get paid for it!

You deserve compensation light years above so many others.

Oh, and fuck Henry Kissinger.

Talk about a usesless eater***

;)

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. Henry Kissinger
War criminal yeah, haul his ass to the Hague and Fuck him up for what he has done.
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broadcaster Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
32. Thank you for taking the time to write what you did.
I grew up in a small town where not having a father and a mother was viewed as a sin, and where the religions/churches shunned anyone who did not fit the norm.

Your point about business relationships rings true. I live in an area where people talk about 'friendships' when they really mean business relationships. A realtor is 'my friend' because she speaks to me in a coffee shop twice a week and hopes I will 'call on her to help me' if I ever 'need anything,' meaning: a house. This kind if thing drives me crazy. But those who live for money and power operate in this way, its just not how I prefer to operate (and of course they have the Escalades and BMW's and I don't).



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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. It's sad
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 01:04 PM by undergroundpanther
When human beings are so alone desperate for kinship and non sexualized love that they call a realtor a "friend".What does that SAY about our culture's attitude twords kindness and giving without expecting returns on the investment? It says volumes the way we are forced to live and the excuses we make about the way we live to keep living that way.

Funny commercials on TV now have started treating acquired objects phones cars like your long lost lovers.
Particularly sick was a phone commercial where a guy had a new phone and was kissing it stroking it with his finger, baby talking to it without any person on the other end.It was obscene not his affection but WHAT he was affectionate twords, other people were in the room with him it appeared to be a club basement or pool hall..Those other people ceased to exist because the phone was the consumers beloved.

Is this the model for a real relationship for a living creatures now?

A person falling in love with a bought object?
that kind of relationship is only rewarding to a psychopath.

Also the newer tastykake commercials, they have changed their homey share the goodness messages with encouraging the greed of NOT sharing cakes, In one commercial set up like their old "share the love" commercials Father comes to kid eating some kind of cake on the porch .Father begins remembering sharing cakes with his grandpa(hinting for a taste) Than the kid says Grandpa told me he thought you'd try that,and the kid does not share share the cakes with his father.Who sits on the porch like a lump.And this is supposed to make us want tastykakes.
All it showcases is American business values .

Whenever I have something good,chocolate, a muffin or something I share it with anyone who wants some.I break it apart and offer,Why because I like sharing..I share everything pretty much.Because scarcity is a myth. This world only looks like scarcity because business and hoarders make it appear that way also greed driven mismanagement of resources rendered the planet dying from abuse by corporations
You can plant a garden without destroying topsoil. But did the settlers learn from the natives here who's land was over abundant, No. I am thankful I learned how to use a planting stick.


The antidote of the hoarders of wealth and their sociopath culture of scarcity and obedience fears is simple sharing of what you have with others, without expecting a return(profit) for giving to others. Don't believe the state is out to get sharers ?just ask food not bombs, http://orlandofoodnotbombs.org/

or research the history of a PtP song sharing network and how the state cracked down on their non profit motivated sharing..

Sharing food with others was once an infraction that could get your food stamps cut.Actively encouraging greed among poor people by law.You must never share food even with the kid next door..
And if you live on section 8 ,some states will search your drawers along with a housing code inspection every year for evidence of another person maybe a lover is living there.They look in the drawers for men or womens underwear, literally.
They've done that to me..
Woe to the closeted cross dresser on section 8.

"Here is a landlord working the system..and his hostility to poor people with section 8 vouchers whom he exploits.
There’s no need to make modifications. **Working the system works right into my system!***

Let’s address why the agencies help. They help when a family is going to be or who is homeless now. Many times the family is staying at a church or shelter. The agencies intention is to hold the family together by assisting in housing. This is both admirable and a good thing.

I find that most landlords don’t want these people as tenants.

(people like ME)

In fact, government housing and Section 8 programs do credit and background checks to weed these people out too. So most landlords don’t want them, and their government rejects them as well.

I don’t. I really do believe that people deserve a second chance, or a tenth chance, if that be the case. You wouldn’t believe how grateful many tenants were because I was the only landlord who would give them a chance by renting to them.

Aren’t I a great guy? I think so. I also know that by being a wonderful guy, I also make more money as a result of it."

http://www.hrogerneal.com/streetwiseland.php?PHPSESSID=249f6d06563855443f157b9117f79c97


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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
35. That is the most amazing post I've ever read. It truly gets to the heart of the matter.
Our real world was stolen away from us. We should not be spending our lives thinking of ways to make money...earning a living. If we were not ripped out of our tribes and subjugated, we would be spending a couple of hours a day foraging for food. The rest of the day would be ours to do as we please.

If we had been left in our tribes, we would have a closeness...an affinity...with each other that we do not experience now. We would be working WITH each other. In this class society that they have forced upon us, we are working AGAINST each other.

It doesn't make for an efficient society. It doesn't make for a caring, loving society. Most of us have not even begun to imagine the beautiful life that we are missing out on.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. How I wish
I had a tribe to go home to.I don't belong here.But also I know there is no place no refuge no asshole free zone/tribe to run to.
Sometimes I just sit here and cry for what this empire culture has stolen from all of us.I sometimes just stay inside the house it is so painful to see the land being destroyed by developers and walk past roadkills,holding back tears while everyone speeds by oblivious to this with their car windows rolled up...Shouting at me because I got in their way because I did not cross the road fast enough.

The world has gone insane obeying the leaders of industry and listening to the poisoned promises of their jackals,wanting to be a millionaire,We grow up believing thinking independence from the obligation to others well being means freedom..
Freedom from kin leaves a gaping bleeding hole inside me.A hole where being needed and accepting gifts has been torn out of me by the beliefs that this empire imposes upon us from cradle to grave.

I never felt free here in America.I never felt like I matter really, I feel like a useless eater. Even though people tell me I am not that. Truth is,I carry both messages inside me and the inner conflict it has made inside me has broken my heart in two and broken my mind.

And that is exactly why business culture, greed, and salesman relations is incompatible with love,kindness sharing, and humanity and democracy.
If you are a gentle soul this culture will grind you up.If your ability to cope and deny reality before you is not good enough to keep you stable appearing in this insane system you will wind up like me.
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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. We are your tribe
and here you are home, if you wish
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. I know
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 01:57 PM by undergroundpanther
And if I ever got the means, I'd get every good heart here on DU,PM them asap,and say hey, come live with me,in my asshole free zone,we will make a new way to be together that is of respect and love mutual caring,and peace.Work it out together feel it out inside until we made it beautiful again.And we can find ourselves through each other.And each of us can become the king of ourselves Self sovereign and interdependent as human relationships built on love and trust that is earned through giving,integrity caring and not ever abusing power,The life that was always meant to be,that served us for millennia before the domination game..
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #43
72. I sometimes dream of that place....
that asshole-free zone. I keep a picture of it in my mind. A beautiful relatively peaceful place where people often experience joy. I think there are many who would go there with us, if we could make it a reality.

I don't believe we have to put up with this state of things. I don't believe in "that's the way it is..." This world beyond oppression and fear and lack you talk about is possible. The fact that we are so far from it now is what keeps me fighting in this current situation. Fighting wears people down, but there's no other choice to keep sane. Solidarity with other fighters is important. Pulling together :grouphug: we can accomplish so much more than we ever would pitting ourselves against each other.

Although the stresses of hyper-vigilance are not healthy, it's useful to maintain vigilance in a situation such as what we have now in this country. We have to keep an eye on what is being done in our name by the serial oppressors who have hijacked the govt in Washington. We keep the vigil for ourselves and for others who share our vision. Many of our worst fears about the intent of our 'leaders' have come true and so are we crazy? For people who have been abused in their personal lives, what is happening in the political sphere today comes as NO surprise.

Some will choose to live in a bubble, to go into some kind of oblivion rather than fighting or vigilance. But those who seek oblivion agree to sleepwalk through life and run the risk of being trampled by abusers.

As a society we have lost our way...been derailed...it's time to create something new and better with whatever means we have. I'm ready to start from scratch. Sometimes you have to get to the bottom to know what's really worth saving and how to begin again.

Keep talking panther...keep talking about the dangers of living a lie like you had to do. It's so related to the Big Lies out there today.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
64. There truly is NO place, NO refuge, NO asshole-free zone, NO tribe
You got that right.

What did me in is when the people who survived the SuperDome, and the Convention Center started killing themselves because they had no HOME, no Way to survive, after being shipped all across the nation, then evicted when the nation lost interest.

Where was the outrage?

Where was the "AHA!" moment?

How in the hell could people turn away and not see, not care, not grieve, not change?

HOW???

So, now I know I live in a society where death doesn't even affect "good" people.

I said to two people this week, "I could die on your church steps, and nothing would happen. People would just walk over my body and keep going."

How did we get to be The Good Germans???
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #64
82. Generations of social conditioning.
And not controlling the psychopaths,authoritarians and narcissistic personalites in our midst and failing to keep them away from,privilege,politics, power and wealth,than denying which once they have it they abuse it.The dynamics of an abusive relationship are the same dynamics on a bigger scale that makes an empire thrive.It begins and ends with each of us.

Here are some links to learn more how we got like this.They point the way.
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Consumption/Rise.asp
http://ponerology.blogspot.com/
http://www.bullyonline.org/
http://www.prisonexp.org/
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/06_politic.html
http://www.asktheinternettherapist.com/is-that-the-reason-i-get-abused.html
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/05_history.html
http://www.sixandahalfbillionpixels.com/
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/05/1096949514155.html
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #82
102. "It begins and ends with each of us."
So correct, so simple, and so ignored!

We liberals used to understand that.


Why can't we figure it out now?

Blaming it all on the RW is so counterproductive.

Thanks! I"ll look at the links...
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
37. there has got to be some balance somewhere
ever since the mid 80s it is fashionable to decry "SECRETS" and to throw away the culture of the stiff upper lip and the hiding away of one's pain

however i don't see that the new culture of dwelling and endlessly re-living the past is doing anything positive for anyone but the producers of daytime teevee

you seem terribly unhappy and it seems to me that whatever is compelling you to endlessly relate this story, in repeated long posts, is not really serving you well

many of us here have backgrounds of abuse, of disability, and so on, and there is certainly a time and a place for sharing our pain, but the point of sharing pain is to make the load lighter, not to make the burden larger and heavier

i don't see how you can break the "bars of belief" if you insist on looking at the past instead of looking forward

yes, my childhood was shitty, yes, being abused is shitty, but the past can't be changed, all we can change is the future and a lot of times i think we do that better by looking forward rather than letting our past be dragged into the forefront for the profit of the counselors and therapists who, at the end of the day, will earn more money if we remain sick and focused on our pain

"fake it until you make it" is a cliche, but it can work, certainly better than just giving up and wallowing in despair, there's a point at which if your medicines don't work or you refuse to take them because you don't like how they affect you, yet you won't stop endlessly rehearsing the past in your mind, then people are at a loss about how to help you

"shut up and smile" isn't always completely terrible advice, sometimes you have to change your actions and THEN your emotions follow, if you wait until you feel good to start smiling then it could be that you'll be waiting a very long time

society doesn't give a damn about me or about my contribution, so fuck 'em, over the years i found other ways to get a buck without contributing -- the best was playing blackjack -- and i damn well don't feel guilty about it -- the society that treated me this way doesn't deserve the benefit of my talent anyway, it's somebody else's problem as far as i'm concerned, i'm not going to waste my time being miserable because i'm not allowed to "contribute," most "contributions" are just increasing the pressure on our fragile environment anyway if we're honest about it
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. There is no such thing as balance
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 02:20 PM by undergroundpanther
In a world that is so unpredictable, uncontrollable and dying every moment.Our egos are but little squeaky monkeys riding on the back of a tiger. Our biology and unconsious our instincts is the tiger but the monkey (ego) thinks it can control the tiger by commands like Think Happy thoughts or else! Not only does this monkey think it controls the tiger it rides, it's arrogant enough to think it owns the jungle and the world too.But in reality it is a monkey clinging on the back of a tiger scared shitless calling itself lord of the tigers..
Free will is a nessesary illusion. But never forget it is an illusion for what we are is way beyond what we think we are. And the way to find that out is to give up control give up trying to balance the impossible and let go and learn from the tiger until you can relate to the tiger and love the tiger..


you seem terribly unhappy and it seems to me that whatever is compelling you to endlessly relate this story, in repeated long posts, is not really serving you well

What do you know about me? What I do or don't do? Tell me how I seem? Pithoui? I am more than my posts I do do things but they are not money obessed.I don't want wealth it's more of a burden than it's worth.
,I am more sensitized than you are apparently..Secondly take your own advice, if you can't deal with my posts, Be an adult, take responsibility for your own emotion DON'T CLICK MY POSTS..

many of us here have backgrounds of abuse, of disability, and so on, and there is certainly a time and a place for sharing our pain, but the point of sharing pain is to make the load lighter, not to make the burden larger and heavier

And you want me to not say what I feel honestly anymore,Should I just shut up to make YOUR burden lighter for you? Yes it's all about little YOU. Other replies don't seem at all "burdened" by my post, so why are YOU,Maybe YOU need to ask yourself why.
Honestly I don't say what I say for people like YOU.
You can't handle it. Best you not take in too much reality if it burdens you too much *pat*pat*pat.

i don't see how you can break the "bars of belief" if you insist on looking at the past instead of looking forward.

I don't look only at the past,If you read my OP with a little introspection,you'd see I aim to connect the past to the present to explain HOW we may have gotten HERE NOW.
But that kind of connection scares you I think.I could be wrong but I suspect it.Ever forward thinking without introspection connecting it to past mistakes and emotions is BUSINESS think, New age poison..

yes, my childhood was shitty, yes, being abused is shitty, but the past can't be changed, all we can change is the future and a lot of times i think we do that better by looking forward rather than letting our past be dragged into the forefront for the profit of the counselors and therapists who, at the end of the day, will earn more money if we remain sick and focused on our pain

WRONG.I look to my pain to NEVER FORGET. Read my SIG line!
Thou shalt not be..It is from the holocaust museum.Shall we forget the holocaust and never look back,and go ever forward like the colonialist conquerers used to say??

"fake it until you make it" is a cliche, but it can work,

That is DENIAL, New age thought control.I want NONE of that bullshit it is poison to me.What"works" sometimes isn't what is needed.Many things"work" but that does not mean they HELP.


certainly better than just giving up and wallowing in despair, there's a point at which if your medicines don't work or you refuse to take them because you don't like how they affect you, yet you won't stop endlessly rehearsing the past in your mind, then people are at a loss about how to help you

I'm not ASKING for help here. Not form the likes of you either.Why do you assume I was asking for help? If I needed help I'd ask for it, directly.

"shut up and smile" isn't always completely terrible advice, sometimes you have to change your actions and THEN your emotions follow, if you wait until you feel good to start smiling then it could be that you'll be waiting a very long time

Telling me how to express myself now.How arrogant. Yep you got all the answers don't cha, I think you got control issues.
So maybe if YOU stopped running away from emotions and forcing yourself,and listened instead YOU might be strong enough to listen to what my posts really mean someday.

society doesn't give a damn about me or about my contribution, so fuck 'em, over the years i found other ways to get a buck without contributing -- the best was playing blackjack -- and i damn well don't feel guilty about it -- the society that treated me this way doesn't deserve the benefit of my talent anyway, it's somebody else's problem as far as i'm concerned, i'm not going to waste my time being miserable because i'm not allowed to "contribute," most "contributions" are just increasing the pressure on our fragile environment anyway if we're honest about it.

Some contributions don't harm the environment,some don't cost us ANYTHING.Some are not even material. How limited your view of what contributions ARE.
I contribute or I don't.But I am not of this culture I don't find happiness in greed, control,dominance, power or faking it.And I do not "wallow" in pretending to be "elite"because I can make believe and force myself to think happy thoughts and make the unworkable"work" as you seem to be crowing about here.You talk like a psychopath here.Thinking your way is everyones way to be"happy" giving me UNWANTED advice.I hope your kind of toxic personality dies off,and soon.

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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #40
69. i think you need professional help and you can't get it on the internet
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 04:40 PM by pitohui
you say: I hope your kind of toxic personality dies off,and soon.


i am sorry that you are so filled with hate that you want me to die but you must realize that people won't wish you well when you are so full of anger, so full of hate and bitterness, so full of "reasons" why nothing can ever work for you

i know that my advice has value, as i was born w. a genetic disorder, and i have been able to lift myself from someone who did not speak, who was thought to be deaf and unable to communicate, to someone who has traveled the world

it is not the purpose of my post to "crow," it is the purpose of my post to suggest ideas

i refuse to spend my one and only life as a victim, life is too short to make it about collecting injustices and crying about how i've been done wrong, guess what, everybody's been done wrong, let's take it as given and see what we can do to move forward

of course you are free to say whatever you like, but what you are doing isn't working for you, you continue to be miserable, you continue to be unhappy

the definition of insanity, keep doing the same thing that didn't work the first time
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #69
84. Well
I wasn't telling you how to express yourself.
I wasn't telling you to fake how you feel.
And I wasn't demeaning you, Until.. you came on this thread to telling me me to change so YOU can feel better.I'm not responsible for your feelings and your opinions of me,They are yours. So,Go find your happiness make your happiness,and leave me alone.Be an adult now, don't respond to the thread if it upsets you,don't click on my posts just put me on ignore and move on.I Don't care.Because I don't write to please you and facilitate your happiness for you..Understand?
It's not about YOU.
Your response to me stank of narcissism.You might be inclined to ignore it, but I am not. And I really despise certain personality types that are toxic to human beings and from what I see you exhibit some of these tell tale traits of being a toxic person.I want NOTHING to do with your ilk.And your toxic personality telling me not to express myself.How dare you be so presumptuous as to assume my mental state or my mental health.You are just another poster one I find repulsive... It's disgusting that arrogance you have..But I am sure you lack the sensitivity to see it.If you had the sensitivity you wouldn't be saying the crap you said.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #37
55. Excuse me, but isn't this basically a more tactful way of saying
"Get over it"?

I KNOW your intentions are good and you didn't mean it in the snarky and unfeeling way the righties do when they tell people to "get over it." It's hard to watch a person apparently obsessing over her own suffering and her own miserable past without wanting to contribute what seems to be constructive and compassionate advice to "do something" instead of just endlessly re-living it.

however i don't see that the new culture of dwelling and endlessly re-living the past is doing anything positive for anyone but the producers of daytime teevee

It is NOT the culture! What you don't appear to understand is that the tendency to endlessly re-live the past, to obsess over old traumas, is in and of itself one of the consequences of those traumas! That is PART of the damage, a big part of it, in fact.

I know because I've been there myself. I was also bullied as a child, from first grade almost until the time I graduated from high school. I think it finally stopped when I was in my senior year, but by then I was overflowing with rage and hated the whole world.

And on top of all that there was also a horrendous betrayal. Someone I loved very much and who I believed was one of the few people who understood and appreciated me humiliated me in public, in front of some of his friends who were also members our temple. This was an upper middle-class Reform Jewish temple, and as a scruffy girl from the wrong side of the tracks I had absolutely NO business being there! Of course that was the one essential thing that absolutely NOBODY would tell me, i.e. that it was against the rules to be poor and Jewish. We were all a couple of generations away from the shtetl, and the old shtetl values of mutual support for the sake of survival in a hostile environment no longer applied. We were now deeply invested in the American dream and the Protestant ethic...gawd, what a scam all that turned out to be!

Anyway, I'm probably one of the few Jewish women around here who will NEVER object to the phrase "Jewish princess." It may be a stereotype, but the stereotype HAPPENS TO BE TRUE. I vividly remember the days when if a Jewish girl WASN'T a Jewish princess, she didn't fucking EXIST! Or she had no right to exist anyway. I was the anti-princess, but since nobody would tell me I had to find out the hard way--and I did.

I write this and I read it over and I'm amazed at how much anger there still is in my words when these memories get re-activated, even though at this point I'm theoretically "over" it, or most of it anyway. It's NOT like this is the first time I've ever written about it. I've written about it endlessly in my journal, tried at one point to write an autobiographical novel about it, and since getting online in 1994 I've written about it in e-mails to trusted friends and on various discussion boards too. We're talking about things that happened when I was eighteen, and I'm now 61.

The point is that I've NEVER known what to do with all the hurt and rage, and nobody has ever been able to give me any constructive advice on that score either. By constructive advice I mean something that works FOR ME. It's easy to tell someone to forgive, but you know something? You CAN'T forgive on cue! You can't stop obsessing about something just because someone TELLS you to stop obsessing, or even when you tell yourself to stop because you know perfectly well it isn't healthy to constantly wallow in negativity.

The one thing I have noticed over time is that the periods of old re-activated pain and rage become a lot shorter. I find that I no longer obsess over the past for weeks at a time, and this was NOT true even 20 years ago, which itself was 20 years after the fact. The INTENSITY may be the same, but the DURATION isn't even close to the same. It's a fairly brief burst of anger now. When I get done typing this note, I'll most likely start thinking about something completely unrelated, or doing something more relevant to my life in the present. I won't dig out my old journals (again!) and spend the rest of the day and the rest of tomorrow obsessing over the past.

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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #55
68. well, hopefully it is a little more nuanced and helpful than just "get over it"
i too have noticed this:

The one thing I have noticed over time is that the periods of old re-activated pain and rage become a lot shorter. I find that I no longer obsess over the past for weeks at a time, and this was NOT true even 20 years ago, which itself was 20 years after the fact. The INTENSITY may be the same, but the DURATION isn't even close to the same. It's a fairly brief burst of anger now. When I get done typing this note, I'll most likely start thinking about something completely unrelated, or doing something more relevant to my life in the present. I won't dig out my old journals (again!) and spend the rest of the day and the rest of tomorrow obsessing over the past.


as you say, the flashbacks of pain do have intensity, and apparently they always will, but there is enormous positive value in the fact that the flashbacks don't have the same duration -- a brief short pain is not incapacitating, it can even be empowering if it inspires us to do something useful -- the thing is, i think there are things we can do that we don't have to wait 20 yrs or 40 yrs for the pain to be at a reasonable level, we are not such long-lived species that we shouldn't try to shorten this process somehow

unfortunately i think much of the thrust of recent therapy and recent culture is such that it actually prolongs people's pain and anguish, a wound can't heal if you keep scratching at it


you state: It is NOT the culture! What you don't appear to understand is that the tendency to endlessly re-live the past, to obsess over old traumas, is in and of itself one of the consequences of those traumas! That is PART of the damage, a big part of it, in fact.

well, could be, but i'm not so sure, in my life i've observed an enormous change in what is expected of victims -- bearing in mind that i was raised partly in appalachia and there was still perhaps an out-dated attitude of the strong person doesn't whine, the strong person doesn't show pain, and so on -- and then the wider culture went almost entirely toward the confessional culture of showing one's wounds, showing one's pain, and honestly -- it is crystal clear to me that the culture has changed in how we encouraged to deal with our pain

i look at a person like my husband, who has a near total memory loss of several years of his childhood, and quite frankly, he's about a million times healthier than some of our friends who became actively involved in recovering their memories, confronting their abusers, etc.

"get over it" is not helpful without useful help on HOW to get over it, clearly, but the older i get the more i'm inclined toward abe lincoln's view: the secret to happiness, ma'am, is having a bad memory
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #68
79. I agree that waiting 20-40 years just to shorten the duration
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 07:05 PM by Raksha
of the flashbacks is not exactly an ideal situation.

Re as you say, the flashbacks of pain do have intensity, and apparently they always will, but there is enormous positive value in the fact that the flashbacks don't have the same duration -- a brief short pain is not incapacitating, it can even be empowering if it inspires us to do something useful -- the thing is, i think there are things we can do that we don't have to wait 20 yrs or 40 yrs for the pain to be at a reasonable level, we are not such long-lived species that we shouldn't try to shorten this process somehow.

But maybe just the knowledge that they WILL become shorter with the passing of time and (very important!) without your actually having to DO anything about them may help to shorten them for someone else, if not for me. I never meant to imply that I was in a perpetual state of grief and/or rage and/or "self-pity" if you want to call it that ALL the time or even most of the time, because it wasn't like that AT ALL. That didn't even happen when I was much younger and the events of my childhood and teen years were still affected me more directly. And then there's the obvious fact that if I actually lived in the grip of any strong emotion ALL the time I would have been dead a long time ago! There's no way I could have lived as long as I have already.

What would happen is that every few years, I would go into a kind of "orgy" of obsessive remembering and re-living that was so intense it almost felt like something happening *TO* me, something being imposed from the outside, rather than something *I* was doing and could therefore presumably control. Sometimes I'd find myself ACTIVELY hating someone who had fucked me over in the past all over again, even though that person had been gone from my life for years. I'd fantasize about FINALLY getting the last word, or the last laugh, or just putting my hands around their throats and throttling them.

unfortunately i think much of the thrust of recent therapy and recent culture is such that it actually prolongs people's pain and anguish, a wound can't heal if you keep scratching at it.

Of course a wound can't heal if you keep scratching it, but sometimes it's next to impossible to NOT scratch it! That's what I've been trying to say all along. It's like when you get something in your eye and it's red and watering and irritated. Inevitably, there is ALWAYS some well-meaning busybody as undergroundpanther calls them who says: "Don't rub your eye; you'll only irritate it more." If there's anyone on earth who has the kind of willpower it would take to actually follow that advice, I haven't met them.

For me, the absolute WORST thing to even try to deal with is anger, because with anger you're instantly in a double bind: Repressing it doesn't work, and expressing it doesn't work either. Expressing it to the extent that you might really want to can get you evicted or fired or locked up for life, in the absolute worst-case scenario. But there it IS, and just what the hell are you supposed to DO with it?

I think (maybe) that after all these years I'm beginning to have the barest inkling of an answer, but it isn't something I can put into words yet.

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #79
87. Fortunate comfortable people
Hate those in pain.They can't stand to fathom the fragility of thier relative stability and how capricious fortune really is.
They superstitiously think if I come in contact with negitivity my good life will go pouf or if I fail to think happy thoughts hard enough I might feel anxiety.

Some people cling just world theory and it causes society harm.
http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/invuln.html

The main theories behind victim blame are the Just World Hypothesis and the Invulnerability Hypothesis.

"The tendency to blame rape victims has resulted in competing theories to explain those conclusions reached by fault-finding observers. Observers' motivational needs have been broached by the "just world" theory (Lerner & Miller, 1978) and the need to protect one's own sense of invulnerability." (Schneider et. al., 1994)

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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #68
86. And so....a few questions...
now that the whole nation has been whipped into submission by an abusive pathological rogue government hell bent on it's own destructive agenda, would you say that "forgetting" is the way to go for the victims in these fearful times?

There is 'pain' and then there is torture. Very different. Can you say that everyone experiences torture?

Seems to me that putting up with abuse has gotten us where we are now. Don't you think that we (liberals )have been too passive and trusting lately?

"Showing pain" may not be to your personal taste, but how can you say that it is harmful? Couldn't it be helpful to others to do that? Shouldn't the sufferer be the judge of what works best for them?

The OP's personal story is connected to the big picture of our mutual oppression by our own government in myriad ways. Should we NOT be able to trust that our govt is working for us? Should we ignore grave betrayals of that trust? Is your viewpoint even logical in light of the ways in which all of us are being subjugated?

You seem only to see this in terms of individual response to a personal situation. Imagine how the victim of such abuse as the OP has experienced (certainly bad enough for one lifetime) --gets an extra big dose in having to experience similar behavior at the hands of our government. How could the Bush era NOT keep such wounds open and festering?
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. Good questions Marion's

I thought I'd give you my answers I know it was intended for that other guy, I hope you don't mind.


now that the whole nation has been whipped into submission by an abusive pathological rogue government hell bent on it's own destructive agenda, would you say that "forgetting" is the way to go for the victims in these fearful times?

No,forgetting must not be a victims tactic, because that's what the good Germans did.Forgetting did not help anyone get strength within to cry out when Nazis were rising in power,to stop them.You must remember your wounds the pain and where that pain came from to not get wounded again.It's called LEARNING by bad experinces so you don't get into it again.An experince can be learned by proxy by talking to someone who has been there and taking their lesson and warning to heart..It may be hard to listen to and you may feel a by proxy upset.. but it is better than having to LIVE through the actual trauma yourself.Parents try all the time to warn their kids of dangers before they get into it.. some kids listen, some don't.Some while they are hurting remember..mom told me about this before..

A little kid burns his hand by touching a stove burner. If he remembers the pain and it hurt because the stove is hot,he won't touch it again.But if he forgot the pain or did not let himself connect the pain to the hot burner would he keep his hands off the burner? No..

There is 'pain' and then there is torture. Very different. Can you say that everyone experiences torture?

I don't know.I cannot answer for others. Some do some don't some face what I would call torture and say they didn't think it was torture.Others face things that wouldn't faze me but obviously they got wounded by it.I am not in the position to tell another person how bad their own pain feels to them.I am not them.Likewise no one can tell me how bad things hurt for me.


Seems to me that putting up with abuse has gotten us where we are now. Don't you think that we (liberals )have been too passive and trusting lately?

YES,Liberals have been too passive and tolerant of the WRONG THINGS.
Tolerating the intolerable means you will lose your freedom.
Liberals need to find real BOUNDARIES within and apply them to relationships..
http://www.coping.org/relations/boundar/intro.htm
Pro social boundaries are based in protecting the hurt the wounded and weak from the predatory nasty,compassion-less nature of bullies who take advantage, manipulate and destroy others,and people who although vulnerable take that terrible vulnerability and use it to hurt others in pain or who are sensitized to others that remind them of vulnerability they want to forget.
http://relationships.blog-city.com/the_bad_boy_psychopathic_personality_disorder.htm


"Showing pain" may not be to your personal taste, but how can you say that it is harmful? Couldn't it be helpful to others to do that? Shouldn't the sufferer be the judge of what works best for them?

YES.

The OP's personal story is connected to the big picture of our mutual oppression by our own government in myriad ways. Should we NOT be able to trust that our govt is working for us? Should we ignore grave betrayals of that trust? Is your viewpoint even logical in light of the ways in which all of us are being subjugated?

Yes but the poster you wrote this to originally responding to me and my OP is not logical, it's a fear based motive,
Explained HERE
http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v3n2/justworld.html

You seem only to see this in terms of individual response to a personal situation. Imagine how the victim of such abuse as the OP has experienced (certainly bad enough for one lifetime) --gets an extra big dose in having to experience similar behavior at the hands of our government. How could the Bush era NOT keep such wounds open and festering?

I think Bush and his ilk have a VESTED interest in keeping wounded people quiet,as do certain people. The in denial people are easier to manipulate with power or illusions of security.Traumatized people who are ashamed of their pasts or are EASY to control by shame and easy to distract from what abuses this administration does to the'weak'. (see Just world theory & the Stanford Prison Experiment).
Vulnerable insecure people scared of their innate human vulnerability but desperate to feel in control are easy to provoke with anything that is a scapegoat or"weakness" they project,and become attack dogs to silence and discredit people that dare say the truth hurts as they observed and lived it.

Some people are very frightened by reality as it is and ironically they are the ones most comfortable with the way things are,and don't like victims breaking the pretty illusion. These Pollyanna's are some of the most frightened ,to the point they've identified with the perpetrator's mind. Wanting POWER,too in any way they can get it,even by tearing another person down.. So they lash out at others expressing pain too close to what they cannot cope with inside themselves.Wanting to silence them to feel in control.

Liberals need to educate themselves on the dynamics of abuse and to realize that some personalities are actually so toxic to human relationships,you cannot be kind or offer even pity to them.Some personalities are so toxic to the ideals of democracy,equality,fairness,justice,compassion, freedom and peace they will destroy it in any way they can get away with it.They have NO CONSCIENCE.

Certain personalities in people cannot be fixed by therapy drugs punishment..Because it is who they are.
And because who they are is so toxic to humanity they are dangerous to humanity if not controlled,limited,kept away from power, or destroyed.. I know it sounds horrible.
But in reality there are bad personalities.(this toxic personality type that cuts across every type of human population and culture)A personality that enjoys causing suffering ,strife ,abuse,corruption,and like to wound others and betray their trust and con them.

These personalities are not like us and they are incompatible with the pro-social values and the desire to be a people,free of abuse and trauma.We cannot live with them.BUT we can live without them!
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=technology&res=9C03E6DB1E38F930A25757C0A9629C8B63


People capable of feeling the pain of others,who are honest in admitting we need each other to uphold pro social behaviors if we are to survive here in this unpredictable sometimes dangerous and sometimes cruel world are vital to humanity's survival.
If some people among us refuse to be civil, fair and not control themselves from within,we must control them or remove them from society, to limit their power wealth hoarding and influence to limit the toxic effects they have on relationships and groups of people .For some of these personalities it means they will disregard boundaries until we have no other choice but to kill their bodies, for they cannot be trusted while they are alive to not harm others.Some people are that toxic.They get called tyrants in the political sphere.

Some people because of their personality type will take love,compassion ,pity, kindness and use our goodwill like a tool to get power to harm others later.They are NOT to be trusted .

These bad personalities can fake compassion and kindness and use charisma if caught.It takes observation of these bad personalities to know how to spot the fakes.It isn't something you just guess about.You learn the signature of the bad personality ,see it in the person and reject them.That creates a boundary.

We must become aware of people like this are among us and be intolerant of them. Our survival as a species depends on our awareness of , honesty about,and knowledge of sociopaths, authoritarians,psychopathy and narcissism.Victims of these bad personalities know very personally how these types of bullies ruin lives.They know the signs and the games they play.Because they carry the wounds the scar and the memories non traumatized people need to learn to protect themselves from.

We have no time for tolerating bullies anymore,for bullies have almost killed this planet..and they have abused society to the point many people cannot remember why things are this way and how they got this way,and they can't even tolerate listening to how or consider it enough to stop it..
I relate my posts to my past precisely to trace back than forward into the political and social climate we face today. The political IS personal..

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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #89
100. your strength over extreme abuse is obvious
and an inspiration, panther.

We cannot have too many warnings against taking a passive stance in the face of abuse.

This is highly relevant at this point in our collective journey as a nation. We must become more willing and able to recognize high-functioning psychopaths in our midst and reject them. They are far more common than people think, and when they get into high positions, not only do they wreak havoc but they also embolden others like them. As you say, it takes a strong sense of boundaries to counter their ruthless predation.

The Just World Theory you cite applies too. Interesting how that works..."The belief in a just world may undermine a commitment to justice."

"Believers in a just world tend to feel LESS need to engage in activities to change society or to alleviate the plight of social victims."
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #55
95. One of my best friends in my life was a woman who could only be described as an antiJewish princess
There is something very soul filled by such a process.

I agree with some of what pitohui is saying, but also some of what you are saying.

Nobody is mentioning thugh how HUMOR can be a goddess-send - that without humor we cannot get
onto the path of recovery.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #95
97. It's hard to respond, because even your few kind words triggered it all
Edited on Mon Jul-30-07 01:40 AM by Raksha
again. And NO, I haven't been thinking about it all day, and I knew I wouldn't when I posted my earlier note. I've been involved in several discussions on three different forums today, but I always seem to come back to this board and this thread. Panther's posts often affect me that way, and I see I'm not alone.

At the time, I desperately wanted nothing more than to be a Jewish princess, and I actually believed it was possible. True, my mother was a widow on a fixed income (and I seem to be replicating her experience) and we were dirt-poor and I was "an introvert" (which was considered abnormal at the time) and I wore crappy hand-me-down clothes and...all that. I don't need to go into all the stupid details because I'm sure everyone can fill in the blanks from their own experience or the experience of someone they know.

But I actually believed I had a few redeeming virtues, you know? I was intelligent and creative and wrote poetry constantly...I even had a couple of poems published in a national magazine during this period (my late teens). However, I didn't have the grades to match my IQ score and I was constantly told by everyone, "You aren't living up to your potential." I was a chronic underachiever, and it got to the point where I cringed every time anyone started talking about my "potential."

The thing that was so awful about it was that the temple was SUPPOSED to be a refuge from the unrelenting horror of high school, the pressure to conform, the insane consumerist values, etc. I thought I was accepted just by virtue of being born into the tribe, so to speak. But the social environment turned out to be a caricature of those same toxic values. That was what led to the sense of betrayal I still can't keep out of my posts whenever I get anywhere near this subject.

What probably saved my life is just the fact that it was the Sixties. We moved to Hollywood and I threw myself into the counterculture with a vengeance. I finally found a place where I "belonged."

Today when anyone asks about my religion I say I'm a syncretist: Jewish-Gnostic-Pagan. When I post on the religion board on another forum nobody knows which side of me they're going to be dealing with on that particular day, and often I don't either!



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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #97
106. Ahh Another Gnostic Pagan!
Good to see more of us are out there!
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #106
111. I thought you already knew that! Haven't I dropped enough hints?
I almost never post OPs on DU, only replies, so maybe you only skimmed the replies to your posts and didn't notice. But that's one of the things that first attracted me to your posts, Ma'at being the earlier Egyptian form of Sophia. I have always identified with Sophia ever since I first heard her story. She is the ultimate Outsider, my Lady and my Higher Self...
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #111
121. light dawns on marble head...
Edited on Tue Jul-31-07 02:24 PM by undergroundpanther
Sekhmet please keep me from being so dense..Oh and..Damm Thee you lion snake shithead!! Panther Balls up the paw shaking it at the lower heavens..

:rofl:
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. Give him half a chance, and Ialdabaoth will getcha every time!
Oh and..Damm Thee you lion snake shithead!!

Because that's what he DOES, after all! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #37
66. Thank you for showing your true self.
It helps to know upfront who are the ones without compassion.

I appreciate the warning.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. enabling isn't compassion, enabling is helping to steal the person's one and only life
this poster is seriously ill and has often left many of these long posts of this nature over the years i've been on the board

this poster never gets any better and it is not good for people to encourage this poster to keep going down the same dead end road

"compassion" too often means that the "compassionate" person is more invested in their own good opinion of themselves than in what is best for the person who is in pain

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #70
88. Tough love is bullshit
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 08:15 PM by undergroundpanther
The main theories behind victim blame are the Just World Hypothesis and the Invulnerability Hypothesis.

"The tendency to blame rape victims has resulted in competing theories to explain those conclusions reached by fault-finding observers. Observers' motivational needs have been broached by the "just world" theory (Lerner & Miller, 1978) and the need to protect one's own sense of invulnerability." (Schneider et. al., 1994)
http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v3n2/justworld.html

Dude I post from experience and my experiences upset you.I have many moods and some are good others bad. I'm human!!

Big fucking deal you think my writing is depressing.. YOU get over it.

If you don't like my long posts and the contents of my posts that upset you,I got a novel idea, GET OFF THIS THREAD and go post your stuff in other threads,Those topics more to your liking.I'm not here to please YOU or put up a facade of normalicy. Normal is a FICTION..And I don't care if you think I'm crazy because, this fucking world is crazy hunny..And I am not the only one who sees it this way.

You are not responsible for telling me how to express what I express and your fake"concern" with it's underlying control games,are pathetic. I am not responsible for maintaining your "happiness"for you and pretending every thing is peachy so you feel fortunate today.Grow up!

Go find another thread to whine on.And give yourself some
"tough love". there are TONS of other upbeat threads on DU ,fluff galore in the lounge.Go there.. but for some reason I cannot get this that I do not like you and I have every right to not like you,, maybe it's YOUR ISSUES,bringing you to a thread that upsets you.Everyone is a critic and everyone has an asshole what's new. So,you wanna come on here and sling shit about how scary my posts are and how crazy I am..Oh grow up..Sheesh.

I have found in my experiences bully people and people with certain beliefs about reality and certain ideologies that don't hold water tend to really get their panties in a twist over my posts. You look like one of these pompous types by the words you choose.

Funny, YOU are the only one here calling me crazy so far.A biog ol consensus of ONE. Are you hoping no one takes the MEANING of my posts and what it says about the human condition and society and especially bullies seriously,now?

I know that old game, when a jackass pulls the mental illness card to de-legitimize another persons thoughts..You are using that imbecile control tactic,that an insecure bullies try on me. I can smell your tweak from miles away..

Oh, just Call panther crazy and maybe nobody on DU will listen to him anymore..Are you hoping they'll listen to you instead?

So Usenet of you.


You know I reject any kind of self serving psych diagnosis coming from a snot slinging armchair shrink,narcissistic bully like you. I'm getting a little nauseated dealing with your pompous ass ,So if you come back here showing your ass 1 more time,say hello to my ignore button. ...Moving on...
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #88
118. You have said that exactly right!
People who fling pseudo-psychology around do it to make themselves feel better and more superior.

"Tough love", (which bears little resemblance to love, and is a slanderous use of the word!) was *supposed* to be for those whose defense systems are so thick that they can't get to their own feelings. The theory was, not only for them to reap the results of their own actions, but to leave them face-to-face with their deeper emotions.
THEN, by dealing with those deep emotions of fear, anger, etc., they could begin work on their own issues.

Interestingly, *you*, undergroundpanther, are in touch with those deeper emotions,and are dealing with them as you need to do. *YOU* are the one who is working on your own healing! By contrast, the one confronting you is doing everything possible to run from his/her own feelings!

That's how all this denial works, and it's evil.

Just plain evil.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #70
109. Pitohui you are obviously threatened by the honesty of this post.
Instead of projecting your issues onto them, why not look at your own?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
73. K&R
:hug:
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
39. And there is the truth: there is no love for their fellow humans.
It's love that's missing. Love for ourselves, love for our family (no matter what they look like or how they act), love for our neighbors. When greed comes in, when selfish anger comes in, when envy comes in, there is no room for love. May we all love a little more today after reading this and use that seed to keep on loving.

What a powerful message for us all today, UP. You have spilled the truth out like water, and like all of life, we needed it. Thank you.

:hug:
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Knitter I love you, I love
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 01:51 PM by undergroundpanther
All the sensitized ones who die for lack of love.I wish I could come and be with them all, form a new tribe a new world..I love the lovers .


Everybody knows we live in a world
Where they give bad names to beautiful things
(like useless eater,wallower in misery)
This song by Marillion is for all of you
who have the same ache inside as I do.

BEAUTIFUL by Marillion
Everybody knows we live in a world
Where they give bad names to beautiful things
Everybody knows we live in a world
Where we don't give beautiful things a second glance
Heaven only knows we live in a world
Where what we call beautiful is just something on sale
People laughing behind their hands
As the fragile and the sensitive are given no chance

And the leaves turn from red to brown
To be trodden down
To be trodden down
And the leaves turn from red to brown
Fall to the ground
Fall to the ground

We don't have to live in a world
Where we give bad names to beautiful things
We should live in a beautiful world
We should give beautiful a second chance

And the leaves fall from red to brown
To be trodden down
Trodden down
And the leaves turn green to red to brown
Fall to the ground
And get kicked around

You strong enough to be
Have you the courage to be
Have you the faith to be
Honest enough to stay
Don't have to be the same
Don't have to be this way
C'mon and sign your name
You wild enough to remain beautiful?
Beautiful

And the leaves turn from red to brown
To be trodden down
Trodden down
And we fall green to red to brown
Fall to the ground
But we can turn it around

You strong enough to be
Why don't you stand up and say
Give yourself a break
They'll laugh at you anyway
So why don't you stand up and be
Beautiful
Black, white, red, gold, and brown
We're stuck in this world
Nowhere to go
Turnin' around
What are you so afraid of?
Show us what you're made of
Be yourself and be beautiful
Beautiful
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I love you all, you beautiful ones!!
And you know who I am referring to!!
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. As Keats wrote: Beauty is truth, truth beauty.
That's all there is to know and all that needs to be known. He was right, as usual.

I also think of the Russian Tsar who was trying to pick a national religion. He picked Eastern Orthodoxy because the churches were beautiful. He felt that his people needed beauty, and that need for beauty is still in our Church. I know I need it, the beauty of Creation, the beauty of Art, the beauty of Words. It's so sad that so many live without beauty and think they're living.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. I forgot to say..
I learned to love because I was raised by cats,The humans in my life were not good,but the cats were.As I got older I realized people were dying for what cats have,love.
Cats teach me everyday what love is.
That is why they are sacred to me.
Cats saved my life,literally. And it was the cats in my life who kept love alive inside me.
What I do with feline images tattoos and all is to honor the gift Cats give me everyday, they made me remember to love..And so I give my heart to them love them back defend them from bad people,and try to teach what the cats taught me,about love so less people suffer as I did and still do sometimes inside without love.
Without love there is no freedom or democracy.With too much tolerance of living life without love there is no freedom or democracy either.


Is it any wonder republicans and dominator type people often dislike cats?
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Good point. My h.s. psych teacher once told us never to marry cat haters.
It's true, too, if you think about it. Allergies aren't a part of it. If someone truly hates cats, it's because they can't control them. Best not to have someone like that in your life, let alone be married to one. It's a massive generalization, but it's true.

Then again, I married Hubby when he didn't know he liked cats. His family neglected and mistreated theirs (I almost rescued one once, cried all the way home, but thank goodness MIL gave her to a good home not long after that), so he'd never known a healthy cat relationship. He loves ours. :)
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. My ex
he was didn't know how to relate to cats before he met me.His parents treated their catnot abusive but neglectful,They kept her in a basement alone.She got so depressed down there she didn't clean herself.And this upset me.

I showed his parents WHY keeping her in the basement hurt her and showed them how to teach her to clean herself again,they were amazed that I knew what to do with her.I told them to not leave her alone all day downstairs.She need to be around you all.to be healthy. So her last years of life were better.

Anyways I always got cats around, my ex learned how much cats can love and how they want to be part of our lives and they need us like we need them. Cats ARE social creatures but they select whom they give love to. Control freaks don't like that feeling they might not control the relationship and won't get all the love.Cats can detect and don't tolerate cat haters, some take delight in making sure they feel unwelcome.I don't blame them..

My ex never shared his bed with a cat,before he met me really,because his parents didn't let the cat upstairs.
But he's a cat lover now.


When he comes to pick up a letter of his that wound up here or something he always wants to see my 3 cats and say hi.He got attached to them despite himself.Cats leave paw prints in your soul once they touch your heart and once those prints are there every cat just knows you are part of the pride because they know love,and if you know cats and they are your brothers and sisters you too know love..
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. MIL would never listen to me.
*sigh* Dark place. Don't want to go back there. But it sure hurt to watch, so I'd spend the time I could with their kitties and try to love them as much as I could. They always liked me, too, which ticked off MIL. Times and the in-laws are different now.

I'll never forget watching our first cat together pick my husband. She surely did, and it was beautiful. They loved each other, but she couldn't share her humans with our new baby, so we had to give her back. I miss that cat. :cry:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
57. Thank you so very much for sharing this with us!
I know it's not easy to say how painful life has been and continues to be. And, I know well from experience how much it hurts when you finally do try to get peoples' understanding and they just ignore or belittle you. I've been getting quite a bit of that.

There's so much to respond to in what you've said. If only everyone at DU could understand all you've said, we'd be off to a great start to heal some of the pain. But, alas, the lack of understanding exists here, too.

One thing that really jumps out at me is how your bully father was so well-thought of, and so protected in the larger society. That is so like Marilyn VanDebur's story! Her father was the pillar of society and of their church, and every night he incested her. That's what she grew up with. You had much the same experience.

The only thing I will disagree with you about is laying this all on RWers and republics. "Liberals" do the same denial and turning away, and adding pain to pain. Same/same. Until we come to grips with that, we're going to spin our wheels.

"Useless eater" is such an interesting phrase. It hurts me to know you see yourself this way. I see myself the same way, I just put it in different words. I"ve been made to feel valueless, and that includes right here at DU. There's no use for those of us who have no $$$ to contribute to DU, or have to keep reminding people that not everyone has the $$$ to donate new materials to libraries, etc. People, and that includes liberals, really resent being reminded that not everyone has the same resources and abilities.

When I see the lack of will to change how poor people are treated, ignored and abused, it has made me give up the struggle.

I don't know how many of us have to die before there is concern for us.

For what it's worth, I don't see you as a useless eater at all. I see you as someone who has the most value and the most to contribute, because you show us all just how sad a society we are.

:hug: :hi: :hug:
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #57
71. read post number #40
therein this wonderful compassionate person in words of one syllable tells me to die

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #71
90. why should I tolerate a bully?
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 09:54 PM by undergroundpanther
Calling me crazy and telling me to stop expressing my thoughts for?

Attempts to impose Social death sentence on me,by pulling the crazy card,lamenting about all my scary depressive posts and such..Was an attempt to socially make me diminish.When shit like that is handed out by a bully , It gets me disgusted enough to wish the bully dead.Oh well..You poked a tiger and you got a claw in your face.Maybe like a child that learns to not touch a hot stove you will learn to not be a rude asshole.

I don't tolerate intolerable people .Wishing an intolerable personality death out of sheer disgust, because of their abusive games they play,is not the same as killing them literally.Any adult should know the difference.

If said bully ( like you Pithoui)continues to push my boundaries then...they need to be responded to like the toxic personality they are,repeatedly told what a jerk they are until they get it,and stop being an asshole.

You are insulted I wished you death, well you are a bully and I am intolerant of bullies.I HATE bullies.And I am not ashamed to say I hate the type of person who would desire to control, silence or wound someone like me.Get over it.

There is no moral imperative for me,to be kind to an unkind person.None at all. That kind of lack of boundaries you are whining for is precisely why liberals get distracted and can't fix the problems this society has right now.They cater to bullies as if they were reasonable and compassionate people.Bullies aren't reasonable or compassionate people they don't WANT to be, they're too busy being assholes who think their shit don't stink.. And I'm here to remind them they do STINK.

I don't play the pacifist,with bullies.I never claimed to be a pacifist hunny.

Pacifism is limited as a social coping mechanism.It works on people who can feel shame or remorse after they hurt a non-bully person, but it is useless against bullies..

Bullies ,narcissists and authoritarian wastes of skin cannot be dealt with using pacifism and negotiation..They just abuse your attempts to respect them and seek control regardless of your niceness or cooperation.

So you have to speak to the bully in the language they understand.Of domination and submission,Top them early,as soon as the signs are there or they will provoke until you HAVE to top them to stop them.And I am not convinced you are not a bullying personality yet.You cannot even admit how rude you were to me when I had said nothing to you...yet.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #57
83. The term I used to use about myself was "throwaway person"
instead of "useless eater." I felt that way until quite recently when I started collecting my husband's Social Security and my income suddenly tripled. Nothing at all had changed about ME--I was still the same person I've always been, with all the same talents and the same weaknesses. But immediately I felt less like a throwaway. I was able to afford to donate a little more money to causes I believe in and better yet, I was actually able to have EXPERIENCES that enriched my life, like the Pagan retreat I attended recently (with a little help from my daughter). People who have never been poor have no conception of just how important it is to have some degree of control over what you experience. One of the absolute worst things about poverty is that it traps you in the same negative feedback loop ALL the time.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #83
116. I'm so sorry you have been treated so badly that you felt like that!
This is exactly what I want "liberals" to address!!

There is absolutely no reason in a country this rich to make people feel this way about themselves!

"People who have never been poor have no conception of just how important it is to have some degree of control over what you experience."

Exactly! We have lost the ability to empathize. Just like Michael Moore says in SICKO, "We have to move from ME to WE". I don't see that happening, on DU or anywhere else, with a very few exceptions.

"One of the absolute worst things about poverty is that it traps you in the same negative feedback loop ALL the time."

VERY WELL SAID!

How in the world are people supposed to "pull themselves up" when they're brought to their knees everytime they try to get "help"???

I wish all liberals could experience all this for just one month. That wouldn't be long enough to break them down, but it would at least give a taste.

Thank you so much for a very well-written slice of our lives!

:hug:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #83
117. You have stated this so eloquently... would you allow me to share this with some others?
One of our big problems is that we don't have any way of coming together and sharing these experiences!

Our only power is in support and understanding from each other. We MUST find a way to do that!

Thank you again! I wish I could nominate a single post.. yours would be it!
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-03-07 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #117
141. Thank you, Bobolink. I was wondering when or if anyone
would notice that post. You're welcome to send that post to anyone you want or post it anywhere.

Re One of our big problems is that we don't have any way of coming together and sharing these experiences!

We come together and share our experiences here on DU, and that's a start. Obviously it isn't sufficient just to come together in cyberspace, but it's a hell of lot better than nothing! And more important, it's a BEGINNING. And it isn't going to stay confined to cyberspace forever. Eventually we WILL meet as some of us already do, and the solutions to the dilemmas we all have in common will be self-evident.

Also I think there's a reason why the lefty blogosphere already has so much clout as compared to the right, and it has to do with the nature of left and right, with their opposite ways of relating to other people. Conservatives are much more likely to fall for the myth of "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" even when they did no such thing. But as long as they can maintain the ILLUSION that "I made it on my own"(because that's ALL it is--an illusion), they tend to see isolation as a virtue and they keep themselves weak and divided.

Liberals OTOH (especially those who have been at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder) KNOW that when it comes to basic survival, the group has a much better chance than the individual. It was the same thing with the people who survived the Great Depression. Am I the only one on earth who doesn't see "We were so poor we took in each other's washing" as a joke? It's always made perfect sense to me, kinda like making stone soup! They don't think in terms of dependence vs. independence but interdependence--which is a STRENGTH, not a weakness.

It carries over into other things, to the point where liberals tend to collaborate almost instinctively. If a big story breaks on DU, like the one a couple of days ago about the new "Deep Throat," and the messages are scattered all over the place, if just ONE other person collects them into a Word file, I can have that file 10 minutes later just by sending a PM. And I post the link on another forum and start spreading the word to my own circle of friends, and they start talking about it. The next day DKos picks up on the story and and posts a couple of diaries. Then word gets back to the anonymous author that after posting unobtrusively in the comments section of TPM for at least two months that he's FINALLY getting noticed and appreciated. He's still anonymous (as he wants to be and has to be) but he's encouraged and starts posting more specific information and advice. And then tonight my friends on the other forum are repeating his advice almost as if they'd thought of it themselves: "Hey didn't Murtha do that? Yeah, just cut off their funding if they won't cooperate."

I see this kind of thing happening on all levels, maybe not right this minute but in the near future. I see a kind of crystallization taking place.

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #57
85. Bobolink
Maybe I was not clear enough I don't lay all the blame on republican people per se I laid it on thier belief system.

I called myself useless eater not because that is how I see myself, but how certain arrogant well off people would think of me.I used it as a sad sort of sarcasm.True to certain people but untrue to me at the same time.

Back to that belief system.I hate it because it facilitates abuse.

There are six basic "canons" or principles of conservatism.

#1 A divine intent, as well as personal conscience, rules society.

#2 Traditional life is filled with variety and mystery while most radical systems are characterized by a narrowing uniformity while most radical systems are characterized by a narrowing uniformity.

#3 Civilized society requires orders and classes.

#4 Property and freedom are inseparably connected.

#5 Man must control his will and his appetite, knowing that he is governed more by emotion than by reason.

#6 Society must alter itself slowly.

In this link, I break down why these "canons" of conservative beliefs are TOXIC to humanity and ultimately anti democratic and abusive..

http://www.unknownnews.org/060502a-Panther.html



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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
58.  The health effects and psychiatric injury of bullying

Someone on DU posted this sometime back, and I've found it to be a very helpful piece. If only we could get even all liberals to read it, and understand it, and act accordingly!

The part about psychiatric injury is the most important. FINALLY! Labeling it as an injury, instead of "mental illness" crap!

I hope this piece is helpful to you and the rest of us!

http://www.bullyonline.org/stress/health.htm

"There's only one way of dealing with stress - that's to identify the cause and then work to reduce or eliminate that cause. I believe bullying is the main, but least recognised, cause of stress in the workplace today."
Tim Field

"Poor management is a major cause of stress."
Dr Peter Graham, Head of Health Directorate, UK Health & Safety Executive, 24 September 1998

Stress is not the employee's inability to cope with excessive workloads and the unreasonable demands of incompetent and bullying managers; stress is a consequence of the employer's failure to provide a safe system of work as required by the UK Health & Safety at Work Act 1974. Blaming the sufferer of stress for suffering stress is an admission of failure to fulfil this obligation of duty of care.

The HSE publication Working on Stress describes the view that "All you need to do is go for counselling to stop work-related stress" as "wrong" and as being "unlikely to tackle the source of the problem".

HSE Stress Management Standards

Stress comes in two forms: positive and negative:

Positive stress (or eustress) is the result of competent management and mature leadership where everyone works together and everyone is valued and supported. Positive stress enhances well-being and can be harnessed to enhance performance and fuel achievement.
Negative stress (or distress) is the result of a bullying climate where threat, coercion and fear substitute for non-existent management skills. Employees have to work twice as hard to achieve half as much to compensate for the dysfunctional and inefficient management. Negative stress diminishes quality of life and causes injury to health resulting in the symptoms of ill-health described on this page. When people use the word "stress" on its own, they usually mean "negative stress". The CBI estimates stress and stress-related illness cost UK industry and taxpayers £12 BILLION each year. The UK Department of Health state that 3.6% of national average salary budget is paid to employees off sick with stress. Stress is now officially the Number One cause of sickness absence although 20% of employers still do not regard stress as a health and safety issue.

Stress plays havoc with the body's immune system.

Symptoms

The symptoms of stress seem to cover more pages of every book published on the subject.
Stress caused by bullying results in these symptoms (and more):

main symptoms - stress, anxiety, sleeplessness, fatigue (including Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - see below), trauma
physical symptoms - reduced immunity to infection leading to frequent colds, coughs, flu, glandular fever, etc (especially on days off, eg weekends and holidays), aches & pains (with no clear cause - this lack of attributability suggests stress as the cause - sometimes diagnosed as fibromyalgia), back pain, chest pains and angina, high blood pressure, headaches and migraines, sweating, palpitations, trembling, hormonal problems (disturbed menstrual cycle, dysmenorrhoea, loss of libido, impotence), physical numbness (especially in toes, fingers, and lips), emotional numbness (including anhedonia, an inability to feel joy and love), irritable bowel syndrome or IBS, paruresis (shy bladder syndrome), thyroid problems, petit mal seizures, skin irritations and skin disorders (eg athlete's foot, eczema, psoriasis, shingles, internal and external ulcers, urticaria), loss of appetite (although a few people react by overeating), excessive or abnormal thirst, waking up more tired than when you went to bed, etc
psychological symptoms - panic attacks, reactive depression (which some people describe as Adjustment Disorder with depressed mood), thoughts of suicide, stress breakdown (this is a psychiatric injury, not a mental illness), forgetfulness, impoverished or intermittently functioning memory, poor concentration, flashbacks and replays, excessive guilt, disbelief and confusion and bewilderment ("why me?" - click here for the answer), an unusual degree of fear, sense of isolation, insecurity, desperation, etc; one experiences acute anxiety at the prospect of meeting the bully or visiting the location where the bullying took place, or at the thought of touching the paperwork associated with the case; one is unable to attend disciplinary meetings and may vomit before, during or after the meeting, sometimes at the thought of the meeting or on receiving a threatening letter insisting one attends (these are PTSD diagnostic criteria B4 and B5)
behavioural symptoms - tearfulness, irritability, angry outbursts, obsessiveness (the experience takes over your life), hypervigilance (feels like but is not paranoia), hypersensitivity (almost every remark or action is perceived as critical even when it is not), sullenness (a sign the inner psyche has been damaged), mood swings, withdrawal, indecision, loss of humour, hyperawareness (acute awareness of time, seasons, distance travelled), excessive biting, teeth grinding, picking, scratching or tics, increased reliance on drugs (tannin, caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, sleeping tablets, tranquillisers, antidepressants, other substances), comfort spending (and consequent financial problems), phobias (especially agoraphobia), etc
effects on personality - shattered self-confidence and self-esteem, low self-image, loss of self-worth and self-love
Other symptoms and disorders reported include sleep disorder, bipolar disorder, mood disorder, eating disorder, anxiety disorder, panic disorder, skin disorder.

Increasingly researchers are suggesting that diabetes, asthma, allergies, fibromyalgia, multiple sclerosis (MS), chronic fatigue syndrome (ME) and even some forms of cancer are caused or aggravated by stress. An article in Biologist (T cells divide and rule in Gulf War syndrome (and asthma, TB, cancer, ME), Jenny Bryan, Immunology section in The Biologist, (1997) 44 (5)) suggests that a shared immunological defect may link many disorders. Others suggest that the inappropriateness of the stress response in dealing with modern threats - which are largely psychological rather than physical - is to blame.

The traumatising effect of bullying results in the target being unable to state clearly what is happening to them and who is responsible; the target may be so traumatised that they are unable to articulate their experience for a year or more after the event. This often frustrates or prevents legal action: see 12-week tribunal application limit and psychological reactivity of PTSD.

Another frustration is incorrect diagnosis by a medical or mental health professional who doesn't understand Complex PTSD or who is antagonistic towards the concept of psychiatric injury. If you're under one of these characters, ditch them immediately as they will sabotage both your legal case and your efforts to recover. False diagnoses commonly given include schizophrenia, paranoia, work phobia, school phobia, borderline personality disorder (as a cause rather than a symptom), etc.

Bullying results in strong feelings of fear, shame, embarrassment, and guilt, which are encouraged by the bully to keep their target quiet. This is how all abusers (including child sex abusers) silence their targets. For detailed reasons why targets of abuse don't or can't report their abuse, click here.

Work colleagues often withdraw their support and then join in with the bullying, which increases the stress and consequent psychiatric injury; to see why mobbing breaks out, click here.

Poor concentration, impaired memory, and fatigue are common and early signs of excessive stress. These have significant Health & Safety implications if the employee drives a vehicle, operates machinery, or is responsible for the care or welfare of others as part of their duties. RoSPA estimate that in the UK at least 1000 road deaths each year involve people for whom driving is part of their job. Fatigue is a major factor.

Fight or flight: the stress response

The fight or flight mechanism, or stress response, is designed for responding to physical danger (eg being about to be attacked by a sabre-toothed tiger) but today is more likely to be activated by a psychological danger (eg bullying at work, harassment, stalking, abuse) for which it was not designed. The stress response can also be activated by anticipation of low-probability or long-term or non-life-threatening events such as financial problems (clinching the next big deal, how to pay the mortgage next month, wondering when the next benefit cheque will arrive), motorway traffic jams, job security, picking up a parking ticket for a car park overstay, etc.

Different people respond with different degrees of stress to different stressors, a fact which has dogged research. However, there are at least four factors which determine the degree to which one will feel stressed:

control: a person feels stressed to the extent to which they perceive they are not in control of the stressor; at work, employees have no control over their management
predictability: a person feels stressed to the extent to which they are unable to predict the behaviour or occurrence of the stressor (bullies are notoriously unpredictable in their behaviour)
expectation: a person feels stressed to the extent to which they perceive their circumstances are not improving and will not improve (a bullying situation almost always gets worse, especially as one gains insight into the cause)
support: a person feels stressed to the extent to which they lack support systems, including work colleagues, management, personnel, union, partner, family, friends, colleagues, persons in authority, official bodies, professionals, and the law
Once the stress response is activated, the body's energy is diverted to where it is needed, thus heart rate, blood pressure and breathing rate increase. All non-essential body functions are temporarily shut down or operate at reduced level; these include digestion, growth, sexual systems (menstrual cycle, libido, testosterone production), immune system, storage of energy as fat, etc. In response to threat, glucose, proteins and fats are rapidly released from storage (in muscles, fat cells and liver) and energy becomes abundantly available to those muscles which will help you fight the danger or run away from it. In extreme cases bowels and bladder will spontaneously evacuate to lighten the load; the smell may also help to deter the attacker. There is no point in digestion, reproduction and immune system etc continuing to operate if you're likely to be the sabre-toothed tiger's dinner in the next ten minutes - better divert that energy into avoiding being on the menu.

Therefore, the prospect of going to work, or the thought or sound of the bully approaching immediately activates the stress response, but fighting or flight are both inappropriate. In repeated bullying, the stress response prepares the body to respond physically when what is required is an employer-wide anti-bullying policy, knowledge of bullying motivations and tactics, assertive responses to defend ourselves against unwarranted verbal and physical harassment, and effective laws against bullying as an ultimate deterrent or arbiter when all else fails.

Fatigue

The fatigue caused by bullying is understandable when you realise that the body's fight or flight mechanism ultimately becomes activated for long periods, sometimes semi-permanently. For a person with a regular daytime job, the activation can last from Sunday evening - at the prospect of having to go to work the following day - through to the following Saturday morning - at the prospect of two days relief.

The fight or flight mechanism is designed to operate briefly and intermittently, but when activated for abnormally long periods, causes the body's physical, mental and emotional batteries to drain dry. Energy stored in the body as protein, glycogen and triglycerides is rapidly converted back to amino acids, glucose and fatty acids etc to help the body deal with the perceived threat. The process of conversion, achieved via the release of stress hormones such as glucocorticoids, glucagon, epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noradrenaline), itself consumes energy. The stress hormones also trigger the conversion of protein in those muscles not required for flight or fright into amino acids.

Whilst the human body is capable of withstanding considerable levels and periods of stress, when the stress response is turned on for long periods, the body inevitably sustains damage through prolonged raised levels of glucocorticoids (which are toxic to brain cells), excessive depletion of energy reserves, resulting in fatigue, loss of strength and stamina, muscle wastage (as in steroid myopathy when patients receive large doses of glucocorticoids to treat various illnesses), and adult-onset diabetes.

At the weekend and days off, the weakened immune system cannot fight off viruses (eg colds, flu, glandular fever etc) and the person suffers constant illnesses during which the batteries do not recharge. Even without viral infection, the obsessiveness and disturbed sleeping patterns prevent the body from replenishing stored energy. Reactivation of the fight or flight mechanism prior to returning to work produces a flow of stress hormones which appear to temporarily suppress the effects of illness.

For suggested reading click here.

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

Many people who are bullied experience and report symptoms similar to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (formerly ME, myalgic encephalomyelitis, also called Chronic Fatigue Immune Deficiency Syndrome and Post Viral Fatigue Syndrome). The main symptoms are:

overwhelming fatigue
pains in the joints and muscles with no obvious cause
occasional bursts of energy, followed by exhaustion and joint/muscle pain
inability to concentrate
poor recall, eg words, sentence construction, etc
mood swings, including anger and depression
difficulty in learning new information
sense imbalances, eg in smell, taste and appetite
dislike of loud noises and bright lights
inability to control body temperature
sleep disturbance (eg sleeping by day and waking at night)
disturbance of balance
clumsiness, eg unable to grasp small objects, inability to separate sheets of paper
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome achieved official recognition from the UK's Chief Medical Officer Sir Kenneth Calman on 15 July 1998. This view was endorsed by a report published in January 2002 which was compiled for Chief Medical Officer for England. Professor Sir Liam Donaldson called for the recognition of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS or CFIDS, also known as myalgic encephalomyelitis or ME) as a chronic condition with long term effects on health on a par with illnesses such as multiple sclerosis and motor neurone disease. The report also recommends early diagnosis, better access to treatment, and that CFS/ME should be included in the education and training of doctors, nurses and other healthcare professionals. The only omission from the report seems to be that one of the causes of CFS can be long-term bullying, harassment and abuse, which compromise the body's immune system and drain the body's energy reserves.

The syndrome is not well understood, but a virus in the same family of enteroviruses as multiple sclerosis (MS) and polio is thought to be implicated. The only cure is complete rest. Exercise, which in people without CFS strengthens the body and aids good health, makes the condition worse. CFS is often linked to stress and trauma, although the stressors may not always be obvious.

Action for ME: What is ME? What is CFS? Information for clinicians and lawyers

News item, May 2003: chronic fatigue costs UK £3.5 billion a year says charity Action for ME.

Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS)

Irritable Bowel Syndrome, or IBS, is a classic symptom of stress. It's not a disease but a functional disorder (ie a malfunction) of the digestive system, hence it's other name of spastic colon. Certain foods, especially wholewheat and fat, cause a violent spasm of the intestine resulting in abdominal pain (often excruciating), stomach cramps, bloating, endless tummy rumbling, gas, belching, nausea and sometimes vomiting, constipation or diarrhoea (or both alternating) and a general debilitating feeling of great unwellness. Attacks are triggered by certain foods and can last a day. The cause is unknown and IBS can start at any age with no apparent reason, although long-term stress is often, if unscientifically, implicated. Up to 20% of the population may experience IBS to some degree, but sufferers may find diagnosis can be difficult to obtain. There's no "cure" but strict attention to diet can reduce or even eliminate the symptoms. Many people suffer for years before obtaining diagnosis, after which their life is transformed with a new diet. More at Help For IBS.com.

Psychiatric injury

Over time, the symptoms described above result in psychiatric injury, which is not a mental illness. Despite superficial similarity, and comments (both direct and implied) from those around you, there are many distinct differences between psychiatric injury and mental illness including

a) mental illness is assumed to be inherent (internal) whereas psychiatric injury is caused by something or someone else (external) - who is liable;
b) an injury is likely to get better;
c) the person suffering mental illness exhibits a range of symptoms associated with mental illness (paranoia, schizophrenia, delusions, etc) but not with psychiatric injury, whereas the person suffering psychiatric injury will typically exhibit a range of symptoms (eg hypervigilance, hypersensitivity, obsessiveness, irritability, fatigue, sleeplessness) associated with psychiatric injury but not with mental illness.

A table showing the differences between psychiatric injury and mental illness is on the PTSD page - click here.

Reactive depression
One of the symptoms of psychiatric injury is reactive depression - it is a reaction to an external event. My understanding is that the chemistry of reactive depression is different to clinical or endogenous depression (which is associated with mental illness).

If you are diagnosed as suffering depression as a result of bullying at work, make sure it is diagnosed (eg on your sick note) as reactive depression. The word "depression" on its own is usually (mis)interpreted (especially by the bully) as "endogenous depression".

In April 2005 researchers from King's College Hospital identified depression as the main reason of sickness absence, although they made no mention of a primary cause of depression, ie cumulative negative stress caused by bullying.

The mental health trap

In every workplace bullying relationship the symptoms suffered by the target eventually become sufficiently noticeable that people start to ask questions. At this moment, the bully will try and portray their target as mentally ill as a way of abdicating and denying their responsibility for the injury which they have caused. I call this the mental health trap.

To handle the mental health trap, on every occasion that the bully implies you are "mentally ill" or "mentally unstable" or are a person with a "mental health problem", look the bully in the eye and (preferably with a witness present) say:

The state of my physical and mental wellbeing today is a direct consequence of your behaviour towards me over the last xx months/years.

Put this in writing, with support from your union or other representative. You may need to repeat it. If you are coerced into reporting to occupational health, use this phrase to identify the cause of your injury. Do not have any qualms about naming the individual whose behaviour is the cause of your psychiatric injury. Bullies are skilled at finding and exploiting your forgiving streak in order to get you to retract allegations. This is a deliberate tactic - so don't be fooled.

If the bully or your employer insist on labelling you as mentally ill, consider including libel (written), slander (spoken) and defamation of character in your legal proceedings. If you are being bullied by the medical profession, or the employer's doctor insists on labelling you as mentally ill, question the competence of a medical practitioner who is unable to tell the difference between mental illness and psychiatric injury. If you're fighting this battle, see the page on PTSD for further insight.

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)

Whilst there is no official diagnosis yet, the symptoms of being bullied are congruent with those of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). I estimate half the UK workforce are exhibiting many of the symptoms of PTSD, albeit diagnosed as "stress" or "anxiety" or "fatigue"..

The diagnostic criteria for PTSD are defined in DSM-IV, the fourth edition of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. This is covered in detail on a separate page; click here to display.

With bullying, the injury is caused by an accumulation of small events rather than one major event. The related diagnosis of Prolonged Duress Stress Disorder (PDSD, which is PTSD over time) may be more appropriate. However, whereas PTSD is in DSM-IV, PDSD is not - yet. PDSD, or Complex PTSD as it is now becoming known, is a more appropriate diagnosis for people who experience distressing events every day, such as the emergency services (eg fire, ambulance and police officers etc), as well as those in abuse situations.

As well as PTSD caused by accident, disaster, violence and rape, David Kinchin's book Post Traumatic Stress Disorder: the invisible injury includes chapters on PTSD resulting from terrorism, physical and sexual abuse, and bullying. The official estimate of 850,000 cases of PTSD in the UK may swell dramatically as a result of this new research (it's estimated for instance that as many as 14 million people are bullied at work in the UK). This book contains insight that only someone who has experienced PTSD can impart; as David Kinchin says in the introduction, "This is the book I so badly wanted to read when I was traumatised". For an overview, click here; to order a copy click here.

Suicide

We know that at least sixteen children in the UK kill themselves each year because of bullying at school. Each of these deaths is foreseeable, preventable and unnecessary. The true total could be as high as 80 or more. These estimates, which are published in the book Bullycide: death at playtime by Neil Marr and Tim Field, are endorsed by leading childcare charities.

People who are bullied have many common characteristics including an unwillingness to resort to violence (or legal action) to resolve conflict, and a tendency to internalise anger rather than express it outwardly. Focusing anger inward is a recognised cause of depression. Bullying is perpetrated over a long period of time, perhaps measured in years, and the internalised anger builds to the point where one of these three occur:

the target starts to exhibit all the symptoms of stress as the internal pressure causes the body to go out of stasis (this happens in every case)
the target focuses the anger onto themselves and self-harms, either by using drugs (usually alcohol), or by attempting or committing suicide (the UK has the highest suicide rate in Europe)
in rare cases, and the target "flips" and starts to exhibit the same behaviours as the bully; in extremely rare but well-publicised cases, the target returns to the workplace to carry out a spree killing
How many adult suicides are caused by bullying? Consider the following:

bullying (an abdication and denial for the effect of one's behaviour on others)
...causes...
prolonged negative stress (psychiatric injury)
...which includes...
reactive depression (the cause is external - someone is responsible and liable)
...which results in...
fluctuating baseline of one's objectivity (balance of the mind disturbed)
...which leads to...
contemplated suicide (being viewed as suffering mental illness)
...culminating in...
attempted suicide (cry for help)
...which may end in...
suicide (manslaughter - causation)

It's likely that many suicides are the result of bullying, but the target's lack of awareness of what is going on, their unwillingness to confide what is happening, the traumatization, and the inability to articulate, everyone else's denial, the bully's accomplished lying and Jekyll and Hyde nature, plus the general lack of knowledge and awareness of society, prevent the real cause from being identified.



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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #58
91. Tim Feild's site is awesome!
I met him online long ago in the usenet days.He is a really awesome person. I agree EVERY liberal should understand this stuff,and kids should learn it from the day they begin school.
There is no reason anyone should tolerate a bully that hurts them.Boundaries are essential to our survival. You cannot love what seeks to wound, control or diminish you, without getting hurt.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-01-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #91
135. somehow I missed this post of yours --- that site has helped me so much!
That is so neat that you "met" him! I can't understand why this is so hard to grasp... it's so obvious!

What I was pointing out, however, is that it isn't just school and work.... LOW INCOME HOUSING IS BULLYING!

APPLYING FOR FOOD STAMPS IS USUALLY BULLYING!

We meet bullying in all areas of life when we are poor, and told it's "for our own good", etc.

"You cannot love what seeks to wound, control or diminish you, without getting hurt."

I would say it isn't love. When we are attracted to people with that mindset, something else is going on. Not love.
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
63. Amazing!
I almost overlooked this post. I'm glad I took the time to click and read. I understand exactly what you're saying, but could have never articulated it as well as you have. I call it "amazing" as it is extraordinary that you have come out of all your experiences with this incredible mindset.

I cannot think of enough adjectives to describe this, but you are insightful and actually brilliant. I look forward to reading anything you have to contribute in the future.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
65. Hugs, Panther
I hope you can get the peace you need.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
67. K&R double time
A greater truth has never been written.
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Duppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
75. wow!
I've known you are an amazing person for awhile now, but you outdid yourself here.

If only everyone on DU had your sensitivity and keen insights!



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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
76. commenting so I can find later
When I have more time to read.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
78. ttt nt
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
92. sometimes hard work can be a much-needed refuge from unhappiness...
... if you believe that what you're working on is good and useful.

What I'm thinking of is some kind of volunteer work that would have no overt connection to your own issues: something like helping to clean a park or working in a nature preserve -- that sort of thing. There's a lot to be said for having a concrete task to focus your strength and energy on. Your brain could rest, and let your muscles take over for a while.

Another good thing about physical labor: the more tired you get, the better you sleep. Good sleep is a great blessing. Without it, there is no peace of mind.
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blondie58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
93. omg what a hell of a life you've endured, Underground Panther
This post and its eloquence brought tears to my eyes.

I am going to bookmark it, as I can't digest it fully right now, but I wanted to send my love and my positive thoughts your way before any more time passed.

((((Underground Panther))))
btw, I've always loved your "butterfly kitty"- it always seemed to me like it was in a state of metamorphosis.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
94. A world of so many levels, only an insane person could follow it
"I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world...without you. A world without rules or controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you."

Neo
The Matrix

Never assume these people believe the bull**** they spew. The people in control don't care about "divine right" except in how they can use it to subjugate us.

They are aware that this abusive society kills most of the sensitive ones- they don't want us here, pointing out what they are doing, do they? They don't want us here, saying that there is another way, that there are other options. They don't want us here, reminding them of how empty they are inside.

No...their strength is based on controlling the information and their little pieces of paper. A fairy castle built on blood and lies, so fragile that a single idea could bring it down.

Why don't people wake up? Because they don't want to. Not really.

Many people asked me to "fix the world" when I was growing up. I looked at the world, and realized that if people wanted it otherwise, they could easily make it so. It's just easier to believe that it's "out of their hands," or "would take a greater mind than theirs to find a solution."

The view from down here really is something else.

"Have you ever stood and stared at it? Marveled at its beauty, its genius? Billions of people just living out their lives, oblivious. Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world. Where none suffered. Where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this, the peak of your civilization. I say your civilization because as soon as we started thinking for you it really became our civilization, which is, of course, what this is all about. Evolution, Morpheus, evolution. Like the dinosaur. Look out that window. You had your time. The future is our world, Morpheus. The future is our time."

Agent Smith

I, too, couldn't see it without the proper perspective. I could FEEL it. The strange undercurrent in our "perfect world," where words and gestures were a cover for actions that were...quite different. A place where people are commodities, and the best players in this game wear more than one face.

Perhaps the most damning part of all of this is that scarcity is the greatest illusion. It's not enough that the people of "privilege" have things we don't, while not having to work for it. Things like safety, never having to worry about where they will sleep that night, or if they will get something to eat. For them, it's as important that they deny the same to us, which is perhaps the real issue.

How does our happiness and prosperity hurt these people?

When you know that, perhaps things will change, 1 person at a time.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #94
107. How does our happiness and prosperity hurt these people?
As long as authority exists there will be no just world.

Belief won't make this world just,hope won't, ideas make only subtle changes..

What will change the world is when it ceases to own us and we cease trying to own it.But it will not happen with one or a few,
Sure a few can start a brushfire in restless minds but the state has plenty of willing sycophants with guns and bystanders unwilling to get involved to put that fire out before it threatens to burn down their house of lies. Why do you think MLK and Malcolm X were assassinated? Why was Wellstone and Kennedy killed?

The world is a prison,for the more subtle parts of what we are..even if human authoritarians go extinct, Nature still has bloody claws to tear us apart with.The domination and predation of the gentle ones not like this world does not stop with the end of humans .This dream , this holographic simulacrum we call reality,we cannot get out of here alive.We come in with nothing, we leave as nothing, that is the biggest clue, we don't even own our bodies..But if we give up control ,and not be afraid,and we hold onto what matters, love and stand for love, love with claws and with kisses,and stare down death and life itself,and demand our due..what could stand against that?

Everything that has a beginning has an end, Neo.

Including every story ever told.Time to write a new story.
I know the principalities and powers that abuse us, they know this end will come. And it will come faster when we realize we can do without them and without this world as it is.

We on the other hand are conditioned to refuse to let go of this prison,stop this program,crash this system. Like rats trained by shock grid cage bottoms and no escape from the pain we stop fighting,we tell each other lies and wishes become the wall paper that covers up the ugly truth,and we go insane and play make believe and try to forget and push it down and think happy thoughts,So we stay in the cage suffering and oblivious .. But the door to the cage is opening..to a vast unknown an OUT THERE a future we cannot control..or see.,yet.

Those who cannot face the end call it "hope"And try to "fix" this dying world,.so refuse to face this end will come and we keep suffering,prolonging the nightmare we keep the powers that harm alive because we fear the unknown..but this preservation of the perishable..I call trying to save this reality not hope but futility.And people get upset when I say this. They'd rather call the shadows on the cave wall reality.it feels safer,but they do not want to realize when reality goes their cave cocoon does too.

But I say what I know .I don't care how much the agent Smiths of this world pummel me for it.I will not silence myself because I choose to not silence myself,because I can. .
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
98. Kicking
Edited on Mon Jul-30-07 03:57 AM by Artiechoke
So much to say. I will try to respond when I can hopefully do such a great and meaningful work some justice.

edit: too late to Rec.

http://banshock.org/liesexpose.htm
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
108. Almost didn't read this - the "useless eater" just led to the obvious "of course not n/t" response.
Edited on Tue Jul-31-07 01:37 AM by ConsAreLiars
Not worth the bother, since any sane person would say the same thing. But in reading through what you have said, it is a good reminder of the validity of that old ideal - from each according their ability, to each according to their needs. The value of your insights go beyond reminding us of the mere moral decency of the "to" side of that aphorism and remind us of the many ways value of the "from" aspect are given.

(In short, thank you.)

(edit punctuation)
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 05:13 AM
Response to Original message
113. I Don't Know What To Say Panther, Except That I Care
I hope your life from here on out is a helluva lot better. You surely deserve it my friend.
:grouphug:
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
123. You are such a good person...
There's an old Norwegian saying... Nothing is so bad that something good can't come from it. You embody that saying.

I had to read this is three installments. It was just too tough to take. My empathy button just couldn't take it.

Keep heading in the direction your head is aiming... you are a precious human being and you will do great things. I'm chills head to toe...
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-03-07 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
139. bumping this back up.... because.....
Homeless people being rudely and carelessly pushed out of a park, awakened at 4:30 am.

Talking with more abused women today.

Hearing crickets from the left.

Back To The Top!
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-03-07 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #139
142. Why do homeless people get their shopping carts confiscated
by the cops? Don't they have a right to private property too? Or does that right only exist when you have a roof over your head? I have NEVER understood that.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-03-07 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #142
143. Why? Mostly because we all let it happen.
Who speaks up for them? A few....

Bigger question.... why aren't we all making sure everyone has a DECENT place to live, so their meager belongings can be there, untampered?

Has everyone here called/written about the Housing Trust Fund bill of Barney Franks???

Could we all make a commitment to make that bill a priority?
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nosmokes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-03-07 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
140. Wow. Undergroundpanther, thank-you for one of the most moving and
courageous pieces of writing I've seen in a while. I don't know if you'll be making any lists in the MSM, but you've definately earned a spot on my Wall O' Heroes and in my heart as well. I'm so glad that I caught this almost a week after it was posted. Kismet, huh? Big love your way.
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