Was Pat Tillman Murdered? Absulutely Yes, according to A Nam Vet

[kpete]

July 30, 2007 at 12:00:08

Was Pat Tillman Murdered? Absulutely Yes, according to A Nam Vet


What I DO want to mention is my highly personal experience of killing 4 men at extremely close range, with an M-16. The Doctors examining Pat Tillman stated there was "an extremely close shot group ".... (and they added "fired from less than 10 yards" away ).

................

A "Shot group" on Pat Tillman's forehead indicates ONE shot killed him, and then he was "double checked", then "triple checked" at POINT BLANK range, to make sure he was dead. ( 3 shots = "Shot Group" )

...........

NOBODY, 'cept Superman, can hold an automatic weapon steady enough to deliver a shot group onto somebody's forehead, on full automatic, further than 1 foot away.

If there is a "shot group", then the shots were administered on "semi", and Tillmann was dead after the 1st shot, and his head was held steady, for shots #2, & #3 (AGAINST THE GROUND?)

more at:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_bill_per_070730_was_pat_tillman_murd.htm

[hedgehog]

1. I'm waiting for the body to be exhumed for another autopsy.

It's hell on the family. God bless Tillman's mother for refusing to walk away from this.

[Blue-Jay]

64. That would be quite a trick. Wasn't Tillman cremated?

[Pachamama]

66. Yes, and quickly cremated too n/t

[Decruiter]

68. I know both Stan Goff and BIll Perry. Everyone really should read

what Stan has to say. I'm going with what he has to say over Bill. Love them both, but ............

Links to Stan's write up can be found down thread.

[BuyingThyme]

2. Is anybody talking about the fact that there seems to be no compelling evidence

to suggest that any shots should have been fired in that area at that time under any circumstance?

Let's start with the obvious.

kcik

[speedoo]

4. Could you try that again, please?

I don't understand your post at all.

[BuyingThyme]

5. There was no firefight. There was not fighting going on.

No evidence has been recovered to indicate that they or their equipment had taken fire. So how is it that Pat Tillman was shot in the head? If it was an accident, who or what was the shooter shooting at?

[speedoo]

7. Gotcha, thanks.

Actually, that fact has been pretty clearly stated in recent news pieces.

Those of us who already know Tillman was murdered moved past the "firefight" nonsense a while back.

[Zodiak]

32. It also debunks the "Stop snivelling" comment, as well

Why would someone "snivel" if they were not under fire?

[Raksha]

73. The "sniveling" comment has itself been challenged.

Pvt. O'Neal said Tillman would never have spoken that way to him, or to anyone else for that matter. Said he wasn't that kind of person.

[aquart]

Thanks! This answers the questions that were bothering me

but I just don't have gun knowledge and I didn't even know what to ask...except that a tight group of three shots in a forehead from an automatic...even though I've only seen television shootouts, something seemed wrong about that.

[shance]

3. Army officers sending congratulatory emails to each other in fending off

a criminal investigation.

its being called a "cover-up of massive proportions".

[flamin lib]

6. The current M-16 fires a three round burst on full auto. The trigger must

then be released and pulled again to get another three round burst. After Nam the Pentagon discovered that it took something like 25,000 rounds to kill an enemy so they fixed the rifle so it couldn't empty a 20 round magazine in 2 seconds. The M-16 fires a rate of 760 rounds a minute, 12 rounds a second. It only takes .25 seconds to use three rounds. That's not long enough for recoil to appreciably move the weapon or for the target to collapse. It is entirely possible for Tillman to have been shot from 30 feet and have a three round burst make a 2 inch group.

[speedoo]

9. You are contradicting Perry, quoted by the OP.

Perry's conclusion is based on his experience , killing people with an M-16 and observing the bodies of people killed by M-16's. What is your conclusion based on?

[flamin lib]

12. Personal experience. I didn't serve in Nam, but was on the Commanding

General's rife team for the First Army. Shot lots and lots of rounds. Indoor and outdoor range, M-14, M-16, Pistol (Colt 1917) and an indoor single shot .22 target rifle.

I could group 3 inches at 100 meters with the 14. Hit man sized targets at 400 meters all with open sights. Three rounds, one hole on the indoor range.

I disagree with the assessment in the op. It can be done and at 30 feet it's hard not to.

[cynatnite]

15. Those paper targets seemed really far away...

when I was in basic training, but many of us still managed to do very well.

[speedoo]

18. Paper targets behave differently on impact than does a body part.

Specifically, how can you be so sure the opinion in the Op that Tillman's head would have moved after the intial shot is wrong?

[theredpen]

25. Tillman's head would have moved

...but in a 3-shot burst from a modern M-16, it wouldn't have moved very far.

Think about those super-slow-motion films of bullets passing through apples and stuff (thank you Dr. Edgerton O8) ). Now think about three bullets arriving in short succession. The head would move, but very, very slowly compared to the bullets.

[speedoo]

27. OK, that makes sense.

Thanks.

[defendandprotect]

61. Targets don't move as a human body would . . . unless held in some manner -- !!!

[eridani]

63. If the OP is going by his Vietnam experience--

--that would explain why he isn't up to speed on the latest versions of military weapons.

[theredpen]

21. Different M-16, no forensic evidence (reported)

Perry's M-16 didn't have a 3-round burst.

Still, the shooter -- and probably Tillman -- would have had to have been very steady for such a neat grouping. Even on 3-shot burst, the bullets can spread if the shooter is moving at all. This is like a grouping you'd get when firing in calm circumstances, like at a firing range.

I doubt that Perry's theory of the 2nd and 3rd shot being point-blank is correct because the bullet wounds would have been noticeably different. The forensics would have noted that the shots were fired from different ranges. Also, point-blank injuries cause http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/firearms2.htm">stippling.

[DS1]

29. M16s are different now. Nam was 30-40 years ago

[JHB]

46. I'm not an expert, but IIRC M-16s did not have that 3-round burst setting back in 'Nam

I used to know this stuff better, but I believe the 3-round burst was a refinement made due to experience in Vietnam, and was not a feature of the rifles used in that war. The whole point was that the weapon could cycle through those rounds before recoil threw the aim off (much?).

To bring it back to the point at hand, it's worth checking if Perry has experience with M-16s set to fire 3-round bursts. Just because the rifle he used in Vietnam couldn't group three shots like that doesn't mean current ones could not.

It's an important technical point that's worth clarifying.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. So, as some have already said, it is quite possible...

that this was an accident that is being covered up. Rather clumsily, but once the first lie was out, it's tough to keep it up.

Accusations of murder really need some evidence other than that someone was shot.

[endarkenment]

14. I'll give you accident on a body shot, not straight in the forehead. nt.

[TreasonousBastard]

20. Why not? In the grand scheme of things, a coincidence is...

still a coincidence, no matter what the odds.

And you still need evidence.

[endarkenment]

26. Because it is less likely than the other explanation.

All coincidence theories, like all conspiracy theories, are not equal. The head is a much smaller target than the body. The forehead is an even smaller target. An accidental shooting, especially one where (as I understand it) there was no combat at the time, that hits somebody in the forehead at 10 yards just doesn't seem credible.

Yes of course more evidence is needed. That would be were the cover up comes in.

[theredpen]

43. A coincidental head-shot is unlikely...

There are coincidental head shots, but they usually a few things have to be true for these shots to occur.

1. A lot of bullets. There are usually a lot of bullets flying around when one of these accidental head shots occurs. There was a claim that a firefight was going on, but this claim is becoming increasingly less credible.


2. Children. Why does it always seem like it's a kid (or a woman) who catches one of these bullets in the head? Well, as someone else pointed out (flaming lib?), you aim at a person's center of mass when you are shooting to kill them, unless you know that they are wearing body armor. Most kids' (and many women's) heads are at chest-level to most adult males. Tillman was reported to have been standing when he was hit.

Before you question where I'm getting this information, my wife used to work for the Harris County (Texas) ME and got to see the results of lots of Houston drive-bys.

[flamin lib]

17. I didn't say it was an accident. If Tillman was shot from 30 feet the

shooter knew who the target was. If he was hit in the forehead it was a deliberate, aimed shot. Unless you know the target is wearing body armor the rule is to aim for center of body mass. Everything about the Tillman incident stinks to high heaven.

[TreasonousBastard]

23. Why a target? No one has ever been shot accidentally?

[flamin lib]

34. Highly unlikely it was an accident based on circumstancial evidence.

1. 3 round burst to the head from close in. Shooter had to be able to identify Tillman as a friendly and deliberately aim for the head. Standard practice is to aim for center of mass.

2. Uniform burned possibly to hide the fact that there were no body hits.

3. Personal effects burned including diary.

4. Immediate coverup from the moment of the incident almost as if the local command was prepared for the incident.

5. Pentagon fiction of the incident.

6. Bush's executive privilage over communication regarding Tillman's death. What's he hiding?

The circumstances don't lend themselves to accident.

[endarkenment]

37. To some without a confession there is no case.

Once again we have hit the divide here on DU where, when confronted with massive circumstantial evidence of a truly vile act, we divide up into those who demand incontrovertible proof before they will admit that something is fishy in the state of Denmark, and those of us who accept the obvious conclusion.

[glitch]

75. There are some folks who demand incontrovertible proof before even asking for investigation.

Cart horse alignment impairment.

And in the case of gunshot wounds all possibilities must be eliminated before accident can be safely assumed.

[AJ9000]

62. I read somewhere the shooter could barley see and did not have his glasses on.

[Skittles]

70. is that what your rightwing buds told you?

LOL

[endarkenment]

74. Does eat oats and mares eat oats

and little lambs eat ivy, but what the fuck is a ranger who 'can barley see' doing still in the service out on active duty with a loaded automatic rifle?

[endarkenment]

13. Spread pattern.

I think this is where the coronor's report comes to the conclusion of 'not more than 10 yards'. At greater than 10 yards the three rounds would be too spread apart to all hit Tillman in forehead. Which you agree with: 30'- 2"group.

Now I am having a mental problem visualizing how a mistaken identify happens at 30'. I'm thinking of a football field. 10 yards is not exactly a distance at which one has trouble clearly identifying who is in front of you. In fact it is such a short distance that unless this happened in extremely vision impaired circumstances THERE IS NO WAY THE SHOOTER DID NOT CLEARLY SEE HIS TARGET. Which target he hit SQUARE IN THE FOREHEAD. That last pretty much rules out 'oops' as well. If it was a body shot I'd view 'oops' as a possiblity. Not in the head man, not square in the forehead.

[flamin lib]

24. I was only addressing the possibility that a full auto 3 round burst

could group tight enough to comform to what we've heard. At 30 feet the shooter knew the target. The questions are who shot Tillman, why and why the coverup?

Burned uniform? To cover up the fact that it was a head shot--no holes in the uniform.

Bured personal effects including diary? What did he know about who?

Cover up from the very moment of the incident?

It all stinks.

[Richard Steele]

33. It's "entirely possible" if that M16 was used by an expert aiming at Tillman's head at close range.

Contrary to what you say about the three-round burst,
it's actually pretty damn difficult to keep those 3 rounds
in a group the size of a human forehead at anything beyond
point-blank range.

More to the point, anyone CLOSE enough to fire such a burst
should certainly have been able to recognize their teammate
Pat Tillman from a few yards away, in broad daylight.

[endarkenment]

39. "from a few yards away, in broad daylight"

That is what cannot be explained away. It is the turd in the punchbowl of the coincidence theorists here.

[Truth2Tell]

69. Not to mention

the fact that there was no ongoing engagement. No enemy fire. If it was an accident then who was the shooter shooting at? The enemy hiding behind Tillman's forehead?

[EFerrari]

50. This is the second time I've seen this explained. Thanks. n/t

[cynatnite]

8. Still doesn't answer my questions...

I question the doctors' experience in doing autopsies. When a bullet hits something the damage done is usually dependent on how far away the shooter is. Usually, the closer you are..the more damage depending on the caliber and what you are shooting at. Since I haven't read the autopsy report and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, I do not know how much damage occurred to Tillman's body. I do not know if Pat Tillman was standing up, prone or anything.

If he was lying on his stomach and his head could be seen by those firing upon him, a soldier could hit it a lot further than 10 yards away. Hell, in the Army they made sure we could hit paper targets a lot further away than 10 yards.

The other question I had was about the bullets themselves. Were there three bullets from three different guns? Two from one and one from another? Three from one gun?

I don't have any reason to believe this was murder at this point.

These are the questions I would like answered.

[Richard Steele]

19. It seems that NOTHING will ever be a satisfactory answer to your so-called "questions", IMO.

Exactly how much "experience in doing autopsies" do you feel
is necessary to see that a corpse has 3 bullet wounds to the
forehead?

There is just about ZERO reason to believe
that this WASN'T "murder" at this point.

The man was shot 3 times at close range during a "firefight"
that, it turns out, NEVER REALLY HAPPENED.

After which, his "teammates" who lied about the fictional firefight
burned all his gear and personal effects.

[cynatnite]

40. Well, I like forensics... n/t

[Richard Steele]

48. if you "like" them so much, perhaps you should consider IGNORING them less often.

Just sayin'.

[cynatnite]

51. Well, I'm just sayin...

I questioned the doctors' experience because they said it was about 10 yards based on grouping...at least that's what I've read. My understanding of this sort of thing is that it takes more than one factor to determine distance.

There is no reason to believe it was murder at this point because the evidence is not there. It has not been confirmed by anyone it was murder.

It was ruled friendly fire.

And the burning of his belongings does not mean it was murder.

The questions you and everyone have are valid, but I don't believe in making assumptions or leaps of judgment when there isn't enough to back it up.

[Truth2Tell]

71. It was ruled friendly fire.

I can't believe you would use that inane fact to try and make a point, but won't accept the autopsy results.

:rofl:

[Richard Steele]

72. Pfft. It was never "ruled" anything.

It was DECLARED "friendly fire" as soon as the first LIE
unraveled, and all the actual evidence was shoved aside
to make room for whatever "assumptions or leaps of judgment"
could be bent to fit the NEW official declaration.

The only version of this story that needs "assumptions or
leaps of judgment when there isn't enough to back it up"
is the blatant LIE that he was shot accidentally during
some sort of frantic firefight.

There WAS NO FIREFIGHT. The EVIDENCE shows that.
One of his teammates shot him at close range in broad daylight,
and then made up a LIE involving enemy fire.
THOSE ARE THE KNOWN FACTS THUS FAR.

[pacalo]

31. I want to know why Tillman's personal effects (clothes, diary) were burned.

Putting aside the doctors' autopsy experience for the moment, consider that one doctor's phone call to the Army's Human Resources Command was rebuffed. Then, when he requested the CID to open a criminal case, he was told "no". And why were the doctors' names redacted from the investigative report?

I'm with Mary Tillman, who believes her son was deliberately murdered.

[cynatnite]

41. This is why I hope my questions are answered...

I don't care to rely on speculation as to why they burned those items. Plus I like forensics.

[Zodiak]

35. I did read that his brain was evulsed (out of his head)

and had to be put in a separate box. That seems to indicate a massive exit-wound.

[cynatnite]

44. Do you have that link?

I haven't read that.

[Zodiak]

57. By Stan Goff

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/080806_tillman_files7.shtml



I got the word wrong....it is avulsed

None of the above distinguishing characteristics of Pat’s body were recorded, and his height was incorrectly listed as 6’. His wedding band was described as gold, when in fact it was platinum. And there was the bizarre claim that he had been defibrillated… a man whose entire cranial contents had been avulsed (much of his brain was collected for recovery on the scene in an ammunition box). There were also subsequent claims that CPR had been performed on Pat at the field hospital; also preposterous, given that there was no intact bony structure on the back of his head to support the head for ventilation had anyone been inclined to make such a patently vain attempt on a man who was obviously dead. By the time Pat Tillman arrived at the hospital, he was cold, and the first signs of rigor mortis would have already been emerging.

The article has all sorts of tidbits....it was written by a military expert. I think he is a Ranger, as well.

[cynatnite]

58. Thank you....I'll read it :) n/t

[MagickMuffin]

10. CIA Paramlitaries were present @ the scene......

And according to this WaPo article: The Tillman brothers served together in the "Black Sheep," otherwise known as 2nd Platoon, A Company, 2nd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment. They were elite -- special operators transferred from Iraq in the spring to conduct sweep and search missions against the Taliban and al Qaeda remnants in eastern Afghanistan. The Rangers worked with CIA paramilitaries, Afghan allies and other special forces on grid-by-grid patrols designed to flush out and entrap enemy guerrillas. They moved in small, mobile, lethal units.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A35717-2004Dec...

Is the CIA paramilitaries responsible?

I don't have an answer to that question. However, they were present....

[WilliamPitt]

16. Sounds like a weapon on 'burst' setting

i.e. three rounds fired on one trigger squeeze, as opposed to three distinct rounds fired from three squeezes.

"The M16A2 semiautomatic rifle is the standard by which all military rifles of the future will be judged. This variant of the M16 fires a three-round burst in semiautomatic operation."

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m16.htm

[endarkenment]

28. According to a post up above: not the shooter's rifle.

So perhaps the coincidence theory that requires this particular version of the M16 ought to at least confirm that the shooter had the model required?

[WilliamPitt]

36. I don't know the model they were issued

I'm just pointing out that there are rifles that have this capability. It exonerates nobody of the murder question - one trigger sqeeze on burst is just as lethal as three distinct shots - but I just wanted to make sure people knew there were rifles that can do this.

[endarkenment]

38. Which fact is only relevant if this particular rifle could do this.

I'm just pointing out that the three shots to the forehead problem is not resolved by exclaiming 'burst mode'.

[WilliamPitt]

47. What kind of rifle was it?

[WilliamPitt]

49. Everything I'm seeing says M-16.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

That has burst capabilities.

[endarkenment]

52. Which M16? That's the point.

Read your own references. It depends on which model of the many models of the M16 the shooter actually used. You might as well state 'that proves it, Ford's have all wheel drive'. Which model did the shooter use? If you don't know, and I don't, then you cannot make the claim that the rifle used has burst mode.

[krispos42]

67. It could have been a full-auto

It might have been part of a longer burst, only three shots of the bullet stream intersecting poor Tillman's cranium. The rest, for example, might have passed to the right and over Tillman's head. The shooter's body tends to twist to the right (for right-handed shooters) under automatic fire as the torso is torqued by the hammering recoil. They also generally tend to buck upwards.

I think one factor overlooked here is 'target fixation', in which a shooter developes a sort of tunnel vision in which the sight and what is behind it is the only thing he sees. If Tillman was on the move, or if the soldier was tracking a moving target, he might not have been aware of poor Tillman until far to late. However, before I have to put on my Nomex skivvies, I'll also point out that training is suppose to overcome this condition!

[Az_lefty]

22. rediculous...he was hit with a 3-round burst. not dbl or triple tapped

even that doesn't necessarily mean it was intentional. It's the Army
s attempt at covering this up which is suspicious.

[malaise]

30. I posted this about the lies

attempts to use him and how he was used by Bush and his Rethugs after his death

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1465159&mesg_id=1465159

[cgrindley]

42. Tillman was a Ranger...

does anyone know what the Rangers currently carry? M4? How does this weapon compare with a Vietnam era M16... I mean other than the obvious features such as radioactive sights...

[endarkenment]

53. My research says: they each can choose their own.

They are allowed a lot of latitude in weapons choices. So the shooter could have used virtually any of the various m16 models out there, all with different capabilities. The auto-burst issue is very far from clear until the exact model is actually documented.

[closeupready]

45. There's something funny, in a sad way,

that we are all trying to make guesses about what happened when there were obviously people with him when he died who could try to tell us exactly what happened. Who were they? Why haven't their accounts been reported? (or have they?)

[BuyingThyme]

54. kcik

[Disturbed]

55. "body to be exhumed for another autopsy.."

Tillman was cremated according to his prior request.

[hedgehog]

59. I didn't know that.

Too bad that went through so fast.

[seemslikeadream]

56. "He never would have called me 'sniveling,'" O'Neal said - Tillman thread

"He never would have called me 'sniveling,'" O'Neal said - Tillman thread



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1466466&mesg_id=1466466

[TroubleMan]

60. M16A2's can shoot a 3 round burst, the M16A1's were either one shot or fully auto.

I was in the Marine Corps from 1992-2000. Right after Vietnam, they changed the design of the M16. The M16A2 shoot either a single shot or 3 round burst. Every Marine has to qualify with this weapon every year. We also disassemble it and clean it hundreds of times, so I'm very, very familiar with this weapon.

If the weapon was on burst, then 3 shots together in one group on a person's head is not inconceivable if the person was less than 10 yards away. Those 3 rounds come out very fast, and there's not much recoil until the last one clears (it rises up slightly as you shoot it). At a distance that kind of grouping is impossible, but at a close range it's actually not too hard. The rounds travel at 3,200 feet per second. The head doesn't have time to move from the first shot before the other two hit it.

This fact neither proves nor disproves whether Tillman was purposely murdered by US troops. The fact that he was shot from less than 10 yards away is enough to cast doubt on his death. I've recently heard they've been switching to M16A4's, and I'm not familiar with that rifle, but if it was an M16A2, then the three head shots are not that spectacular from close range.

[Usrename]

65. All models of M16 can fire a three-round burst.

The M16A1 and A3 don't have a burst counter in the trigger mechanism, that is true, they just empty the entire clip, for as long as the trigger is pulled, when set to full-automatic. Training usually consists of also learning to fire a three-round burst with this rifle, by tapping the trigger long enough to fire three rounds in automatic mode.

The M16A2 and A4 do have the burst counter in the trigger mechanism, and they won't fire more than a three-round burst if the trigger is held while in full-automatic mode. (It's possible to tap off a single or double round when set on burst mode, and the burst counter doesn't reset until all three rounds are used.)

When in semi-automatic mode, they all fire a single round for each pull of the trigger.

Also, and maybe most importantly, the modern M16 (A2, A3, and A4), you are very familiar with the A2, has a gas compensator replacing the early muzzle flash arrestor. This helps to keep the barrel from rising when fired in full-automatic:

"The flash suppressor was again modified, this time to be closed on the bottom so it would not kick up dirt or snow when being fired from the prone position, and acting as a recoil compensator."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle#_ref-2

I appreciate your post a hell of a lot. Most people just don't seem to understand just how difficult/impossible it is to fire those three rounds into a two-inch grouping from more than 10 yards. And ten yards is very intimate range.

[nonny]

76. Shot in the forehead ---- HELMET?

Does this mean that he would not have been wearing a helmet?
Or do bullets go right through helmets?



Also, 10 yards --- not very far. Think football field. 1st down.
As a former marching band member, 8 to 5 yds. would be 16 marching steps.

Maybe he wasn't wearing a helmet.

[CGowen]

77. depends on the helmet

http://www.philippinemarinecorps.mil.ph/c6_helmet.html


The PASGT Helmet is said to have stopped rifle rounds on occasion, most commonly 7.62 x 39 mm (AK-47) rounds (in one account the PASGT Helmet is credited with stopping an AK-47 round from approximately 25 meters range). This performance would be closer to Level III or Level IV performance, though in a demonstration of the Heckler & Koch MP7 on the Discovery Channel show Future Weapons, a PASGT helmet suffered a catastrophic armor penetration when hit head-on with one round of the MP7's 4.6 x 30 mm ammunition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personnel_Armor_System_for_Ground_Troops_Helmet