What kind or rifle killed Tillman?

[WilliamPitt]

Was it an M-16? Variant of same? Something different entirely?

What combat rifles have the three-round burst feature? What rifles don't?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

Seeking fact, not opinion. All my news searches have the killing rife as an M-16, but there isn't any clarifications on if it was a variant.

[BOSSHOG]

1. Wouldn't an autopsy by someone other then the military be appropriate?

I do not wish the family to go through anymore grief but I believe they are fairly well wrapped around the pole on this issue anyway.

[WilliamPitt]

2. It shouldn't be a difficult thing to ascertain.

It isn't necessary to autopsy a four-years-dead skull to determine what the standard-issue rifle for Rangers in Afghanistan is, and determine from there whether that rifle has burst capabilities.

[BOSSHOG]

9. On ESPN's

Outside the Lines (about six months ago) there was a segment on the guys who were with Tillman when he got shot. A search of that source might provide the info. I recall it was in depth with charts and maps and positions etc.

[blondeatlast]

17. ESPN has had stellar coverage of the entire controversy. They beat

the "news" media by a country mile.

[underpants]

3. *psst* did anyone ever identify the Afghani?

*psst* that sounds like something that needs looking into

(looks around)

*psst* we've watched these animals for too long not to see this for the clear political means that it served

*psst* that is all

[Joe for Clark]

4. They don't use M-16s anymore.

They are called M-4s - really - they are just a shorter version of the M-16.

They fire 3 round bursts.

Used to be you could fire M-16s fully automatic and unload a whole clip at a time.

Guess the army thought they waisted ammunition.

Good question.

Joe

[WilliamPitt]

5. Where is this established as fact?

I ask because a google search has all reports noting only M-16s.

[Richard Steele]

11. In the official military terminology, Will.

The current-issue US M4 rifles are "M16s" only in the vernacular sense,
much as the current VW Beetles are called "beetles" even though
they share little more than a recognizable silhouette with their forebears.

The original "M16" design has been constantly modified and upgraded
over the decades; Hundreds of engineering alterations, small and large,
have been adopted.

The current incarnation is called the "M4 carbine".

Late-60s M16:


Early 2000s M4:

[Joe for Clark]

26. You know - that is a really good post Dick

I could never figure out how to post pictures - too dumb.

Pitt - they fire the same rounds. Like 22s (and I know they are in MMs) longer and they tumble on impact.

From a "magazine" - I guess. It is an air recoil rifle - not a lot of rise. If you were close enough you could deninately put three rounds in tight form. The size of a silver dollar.

And I have never fired the riffle - but I have shot 22s and they say it is about the same recoil.

At least my family does.

Joe

[The Straight Story]

35. Right click on the image, select 'copy image location', come here, post what was copied

and the pic shows up (hit preview to see it, then click post just to make sure).

[Joe for Clark]

41. Thats it???

You mean that??

Joe

[The Straight Story]

42. Yep, try it out here

For a test go here:
http://www.ftknox.com/

Right click on the safe, select copy image location, and paste it in your reply.

[Joe for Clark]

43. Shit - No copy image location option

on the right click.

AM I doing something wrong. I hit the image and right clicked - Joe

[The Straight Story]

44. You must be using Internet Explorer - do this then:

Right click image and go to properties.

You will see protocol, type, address etc in a pop up window.

Copy the address (might be more than one line) and past that.

In this case it should be something that looks like this:
.../gun-safe-images/open-gun-safe.jpg (I did not copy the whole thing so you could see what it looks like, if I copied it all the image would show...)

[Joe for Clark]

45. I am trying.

This is th goddamn problem - and it is a big problem.

Joe

[The Straight Story]

46. Well, it did show up!

You got it Joe! Awesome!

[Joe for Clark]

47. Damn - I didn't know I could do that!!!

Christ -

Man - you are good!!

[alfredo]

63. You might be able to right click and see if there is an open in new

window or open in new tab. If that's the case, then do that and then copy the url from the address window.

[Forkboy]

51. THERE IT IS!

Like most everything about computers it sounds way more difficult than it really is. :)

[Joe for Clark]

53. I am still stupid - Straight Story is just good at explaining it.

Even to me.

Joe

[Joe for Clark]

14. Because every time I say - you have your M-16 with you, right??

to my kid I get corrected.

Joe

[Poiuyt]

10. I thought the M-4s were used in the city because they are easier to manuever in

Humvees and in buildings, but M-16s were still used out in the countryside where Tillman was shot.

[Joe for Clark]

18. No - they have been converting for some time.

It is more like - how much time does it take a kid to get a barrel that is 8 inches longer out of a Bradley or a Stryker or whatever. That if you can kill at 250 yards what benefit is to kill at a few yards more??

I have been getting corrected for years now - cause they are still M-16s to me - and they look the same -And that they think full auto is not a good idea - they go thru a lot of clips that way.

I don't know what the man had in his hands -

Joe

[Squatch]

19. "clips"

The quickest way to demonstrate you don't know very much about these weapons is to refer to the magazine as a "clip".

[Joe for Clark]

22. Ok -

They are to me -

Like I said - I do get corrected a lot.

Lets call them - that thing you stick in the reciever at the bottom.

Joe

[Squatch]

27. No, let's call them what they are: magazines.

[Joe for Clark]

30. Ok - I'll try -

But I am telling you - to this day - I ask the kid every time I talk to him - you got your M-16 with you all the time, right?? - and every time I get corrected - you know??

Sometimes the words die hard.

But you are right, of course - and I will try.

I don't think that way - so it is like translating another language sometimes.

Joe

[Squatch]

32. I really have no idea what you're talking about.

You lost me a few posts back.

[Joe for Clark]

34. You said a clip should be called a magazine.

I said I don't think of it that way.

I said your right - they are a magazine - but I don't think of them that way.

Cause that ain't what my family called them once.

And I said I would try to phrase to your verbage.

And that was all.

Joe

[Bake]

23. I'll freely admit that I don't know, that's why I'm asking ...

Why is it a "magazine" (a term I *am* familiar with, to an extent) and not a "clip" (a term I've heard used colloquially, usually in reference to handguns).

Bake

[Squatch]

29. Here you go:

Magazine:



Clip:



The clip is something that holds the ammunition together so that you can load the cartridges into the rifle's magazine.

[Bake]

37. Thanks. Now I know.

DU is a great place to get info! Thanks!

Bake

[Joe for Clark]

36. Just the thing you stick in the bottom of the gun that holds the

bullets. Thats all.

Joe

[benEzra]

68. The use of "clip" to mean magazine

may have started out as street slang, or may be a Hollywood thing, I'm not sure.

Some antique rifles had non-removable magazines that were filled using actual clips (antique bolt-actions, the M1 Garand, and the SKS come to mind). Most modern guns have detachable magazines, though, allowing you to reload the gun by swapping the empty magazine for a full one.

[Squatch]

13. M-4s are the exception, not the rule.

The current versions of the M16 are the A2 and A4 models.

[Joe for Clark]

15. Maybe -

But you can understand - close range fight you better have a shorter barrel.

And that is really the difference.

I don't know what Tillman had - but I am telling you - they are really the same gun - with different barrel size.

And that is what they want - probably right.

Joe

[Squatch]

16. For close range fighting, you'd be better off with a shotgun

Ranger-pure units have an assortment of weapons specifically tailored to their missions, including M-4 rifles, MP5 sub machine guns, etc, etc, etc.

[Joe for Clark]

20. Oh - I agree - I'd rather have a shot gun too - choke full open.

you know - just point it in the right direction and fire.

I don't want to be disingenuous - I DO NOT like guns. Doesn't mean I don't understand them.

And I wouldn't like getting killed more.

And I have an interst in this fight - a few interests.

Joe

[Bake]

24. What caliber round does it fire?

And the obvious question, what caliber bullets hit Tillman?

Bake

[Squatch]

28. 5.56mm NATO (.223 Rem)

[Poiuyt]

59. They are still using M-16s in Iraq

I just emailed my nephew to ask him. He's in Air Force Security stationed at Camp Bucca in southern Iraq. He said that (quote) all of the cops and Special Forces in the Air Force have m4. The rest of the people in the Air Force that arm up use m16's. The army guard and navy have m16's over here.

Hope this helps

[benEzra]

65. The M16A2 is still the primary infantry rifle for the Army

but it is gradually being replaced by the M16A4 rifle (flattop with MIL-STD-1913 optics rail) and the M4 carbine, depending on the branch and unit. The M16A4 is now the standard rifle for the Marines and some Army units.

The M16A2, the M16A4, and the basic M4 are both 3-round burst, but there is also an M4 variant (M4A1) that has full auto capability instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine

[tabasco]

69. Nope. The M16A2 is still the standard infantry rifle.

M4 is a carbine version for close quarters.

M16A2 fires semi, 3-round burst. NO full auto (saves ammo).

[GregD]

6. 3-round burst

Will - I'm not positive about this, but I think it was on Malloy's program in the past week where a soldier called and stated that the weapon that was used specifically had a 3-round burst feature that could be activated.

[Richard Steele]

7. I believe the current-issue variant is referred to as the "M4".

It's basically an evolved M16. Shorter & heavier barrel,
improved flash supressor, standard collabsible stock,
semi/full auto/3-round burst selector switch, and modified
rail-topped receiver for attaching various optical sights
and accessories.

And some subltler internal mods to make the thing actually WORK
every time you need it to, instead of just SOMETIMES like the
original M16s.

[Squatch]

33. What's wrong with that picture?

[Joe for Clark]

38. Nothing - of course the guy is right.

Maybe I call it an M-16 - but I know it is just my frame of reference.

I'll say this - it is sure not just the army that switched to the carbine variant - the navy did too - I know for a fact.

Joe

[MilesColtrane]

49. He's touching the trigger. eom

[Coexist]

61. what type of weapon is he holding?

Is that what is wrong, I am no expert.

[BuyingThyme]

8. Either a Carcano or a a Mauser, depending on whom you believe.

Oops, sorry... Wrong murder conspiracy.

[Bushwick Bill]

12. Here is what some were carrying.

This doesn't tell us what weapon killed Tillman, but here is Stan Goff's review of the records.

Baker was now wound up. Being in the front, he felt it was his responsibility to get the Serial “broken out” of the canyon. The Rangers were feeding off one another’s fires, plugging into the rush of all that noise, that luminous element of danger. Their aggression now had an outlet. Baker had his M-203 grenadier start firing 40mm grenades over the ridges, and he even ordered one shot (which made absolutely no tactical sense) from the formidable AT-4 shoulder-fired anti-tank rocket launcher… which certainly launched straight over the heads of the guerrillas to land at random in the far valley, or splash harmlessly against the visible wall of the ridge.

The Rangers’ 60mm mortar fired two rounds, one landing near a Serial 1 position.

The jinga driver found a wider spot and pulled to the right to stop. Baker whipped around him with his Hummer. Aboard Baker’s vehicle were Steven Ashpool, wielding the cumbersome M-2 .50 caliber machinegun; Steven Elliot, with the portable M-240 machinegun; Trevor Alders, with the squad automatic weapon (SAW – another machinegun ,firing the same caliber round as an M-4 or M-16); and the driver SGT Sayer.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/062306_tillman_files4.shtml

[Disturbed]

21. An autopsy was conducted & then Tillman was cremated.

That was his request in his Will. His uniform, flak jacket and journal were burned. This will remain a mystery unless ALL the Documents of this event are turned over to Rep. Waxman who is conducting an Investigation of this situation.

[yella_dawg]

25. The standard military issue rifle

M-16 / M-4, whatever has three round burst capacity by design. Some versions (AR-15) have this capacity disabled. I assume all military models retain burst capacity, except perhaps some kind of specialty weapon.

The thing is, accuracy with a three round burst is questionable. The rifle jerks when it fires. The rate of fire is mechanically determined. You do your best to stay on target, but after the first round, any hit is just luck. Useful for laying down suppression fire, useless for accurate shooting.


Basically, whether the weapon in question was capable of three round bursts is meaningless unless one can prove the shots were fired from less than ten feet. The grouping is too close to have been made by automatic rifle fire at any range beyond a few feet.

[Squatch]

31. At 30 yards, shooting at a standard 100-yard round target

on 3-round burst (rifle shouldered and in the prone supported position), my first round is center and the third round is about 10 inches up and right.

It's tough to keep the rifle on target on the third round...it's just too damned light. Now, a SAW is a different story. I can keep a 3 to 6-round burst on paper at 100 and 200 yards.

[Joe for Clark]

39. It does pull up I guess.

And admittedly I never shot one -

But the kid said he could put three rounds in a dollar up close - maybe he is boasting.

However - my brother in law - this is his third war - said the same thing.

I have taken a 22 and pulled fast to see the spread. Within 30 yards - I think I could too. I used to like shooting at garbage cans. Guess that was a long time ago now.

So I don't know - guess it depends on how may times, how much experience you have with it.

They said you could hit a person at 300 yards - I always thought that was BS - I can't even see that far - appartently I was wrong.

I don't mean any disrespect to you man - but I trust my brothers and my family - and I am sorry I have a different frame of reference -

Joe

[benEzra]

70. Marines have to qualify at 600 yards, IIRC...

They said you could hit a person at 300 yards - I always thought that was BS - I can't even see that far - appartently I was wrong.

Marines have to qualify with the M16 at 600 yards, IIRC; I don't know as much about Army quals, but I would assume the Ranger quals are as tight as the Marines'.

With optics, a 300 yard shot from prone, kneeling, or a rest is feasible even with an AK, as long as you have two or three seconds, and the target isn't moving laterally. An M16 or an AR-15 will shoot better groups at that range, though. I own and shoot a civilian AK lookalike (Romanian SAR-1) with an unmagnified collimator sight, and 300 yards from prone or a rest is definitely do-able. I don't think I could do it from a standing position, though.

[northzax]

40. It's also worth remembering

That these weren't your standard GIs a week out of basic, they were Rangers, which implies a better than average (for the military, not general population) weaponry proficiency. I would think that for a Ranger, putting a three round burst on a target that size from only 30 feet would not be that exceptional.

of course, with better trained and more experienced units, the misidentification story makes less sense as well

[Joe for Clark]

56. At close range - they are all really good - I am sure.

If the holes were 22/100s of an inche - they were american made. Maybe the military admits this.

The problem is - to do that - You HAD to be real close. If the holes were bigger - what 30/100 of an inche - than it is not from an american weapon. Kind of an is or isn't question.

If it is from an american weapon how close were they to get that kind of pattern - guess pretty damn close - close enough to see the flag on the shoulder.

It is - this whole post - a really good qustion.

Joe

[MagickMuffin]

48. Not sure this is what you're looking for: but here's some info from WaPo 2004

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A35717-2004Dec4?language=printer

Serial 1, led by Uthlaut and including Pat Tillman, would move immediately to Manah.

Serial 2, with the local tow truck hauling the Humvee, would follow, but would soon branch off toward a highway to drop off the vehicle.

Sgt. Greg Baker, a young and slightly built Ranger nearing the end of his enlistment, commanded the heaviest-armed vehicle in Serial 2, just behind the jinga tow truck. Baker's men wielded the .50-caliber machine gun, plus an M-240B machine gun, an M-249 squad automatic weapon and three M-4 carbines. Baker's truck would do the heaviest shooting if there were any attack. Two of his gunners had never seen combat before.

Baker left the Rangers last spring; he declined to comment for these articles. A second gunner in his vehicle, Trevor Alders, also declined to discuss the incident.

Kevin Tillman was also assigned to Serial 2. He manned an MK19 gun in the trailing vehicle, well behind Baker.

As they pulled alongside the ridge, the gunners poured an undisciplined barrage of hundreds of rounds into the area where Tillman and other members of Serial 1 had taken up positions, Army investigators later concluded. The gunner of the M-2 .50-caliber machine gun in Baker's truck fired every round he had.

On the ridge the young Ranger nearest Pat Tillman screamed, "Oh my God!" again and again, as one of his comrades recalled. The Ranger beside Tillman had been lying flat as Tillman initially called out for a cease-fire, yelling out his name. Then Tillman went silent as the firing continued. Now the young Ranger saw a "river of blood" coming from Tillman's position. He got up, looked at Tillman, and saw that "his head was gone."

[slackmaster]

50. The rifle didn't kill him

A soldier with a rifle killed him.

[Forkboy]

52. Well Tillman wouldn't have died if someone crept up to him and yelled "BANG".

I posit there were other factors involved. ;)

[slackmaster]

54. Yes, the bullets must shoulder some of the blame

:D

[northzax]

62. The bullets are simply the cause

The direct responsibility lies, i feel, with the gunpowder, the explosion of which propelled the bullets in a particular direction at a high velocity.

[Joe for Clark]

55. Boy is that right on -

We can tell what killed him though.

What were the size of the holes in his head. In anybodys head.

Cause if they were 22 caliber - somebody who knew how to handle an american military weapon did it.

And they knew how to shoot it. And it had to be close.

These are really good questions.

Joe

[WilliamPitt]

57. Thanks for the help.

:eyes:

[libertypirate]

58. If you haven't seen this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1471925&mesg_id=1471925

[LanternWaste]

64. Betcha it was actually the bullet that killed him...

Betcha it was actually the bullet that killed him...

[scarletwoman]

60. Stan Goff calls it a "SAW" (squad automatic weapon) -- I've posted about it in another thread.

here

I'm assuming you know who Stan Goff is, but if you don't, just do a google search on his name -- I think you'll understand why I consider him a credible source.

sw

[benEzra]

66. Most of the current U.S. infantry rifles are 3-round burst.

The exception is the M4A1, a full-auto variant of the M4.

I think scarletwoman is right about it likely being a SAW, though (which is a squad auto rather than a regular infantry rifle).

[leftchick]

67. what is Blackwater using these days?

.

[benEzra]

71. Depends on where they are and what they're doing.

Over there, probably a mix of M16 variants and European sourced AK-47's or -74's, depending on the mission and the individual. Stateside, possibly civilian guns, since I'm not sure how easy it is for private security to obtain restricted NFA Title 2/Class III automatic weapons like M16's, but you could probably find out with some Googling.

[jmowreader]

72. Any rifle a Ranger might be carrying would have three-round burst

Note that any GOOD rifleman can get off a three-round burst--pull the trigger and let go when you hear the first round fire. The problem is, rock and roll is fun so way too many guys lean on the trigger until the magazine's empty. The three-round burst mechanism keeps this from happening.

The M-16 series rifles:

M-16: the original piece of shit from Vietnam. The company that made it sold it to the Army as a self-cleaning rifle, so naturally the fucking Army believed them and didn't buy any cleaning kits. (You can't just use your M-14 cleaning kit; the rod won't fit down the barrel and the bore brush goes into the chamber and stops.) Ask any soldier how that one worked out. Has selective fire: single shot or full auto.

M-16A1: the improved piece of shit from Vietnam. They chromed the inside of the barrel and did a lot of other things to it to make it less turdlike. They still sucked, but not as badly. Has selective fire: single-shot or full-auto.

M-16A2: has different rifling to handle heavier bullets (1 turn in 7 inches as opposed to 1 turn in 12 on the M-16/M-16A1). Tool-free windage adjustment. (This is both good and bad--good in that it's quicker to set the sights; bad in that it encouraged too many armorers to center the windage on every rifle in the arms room to please the IG during inspections.) Has had the full-auto setting replaced with the three round burst setting. Lots more new and improved features.

M-4: collapsible-stock M-16A2. The choice of airborne-qualified units (read: the Rangers) because it's easier to rig for jumps.

In addition to the M-16, the French FAMAS and German G36 are both capable of three-round burst, and both fire the NATO 5.56mm cartridge. Consider: the odds of finding the FAMAS, used only by the French Army, in Iraq are low. The G36 is also used by the Spanish Army, but that rifle normally comes equipped either with a singles/full-auto trigger group or a singles/two-round trigger group. So basically, the only rifle that has a three-round burst setting and would be in theatre at the time Tillman died would have been an M-4.

Oh yeah: I was thinkin' maybe the Galil (the Israeli rifle) had three-round burst. It doesn't but it DOES have a bottle opener to keep the Israeli dogfaces from opening Cokes with the lip of a magazine.