Was Virginia Tech a generation-defining moment?

[Rocknrule]

That is, do you think the VT tragedy was one of those "days that will live in infamy" like JFK's assassination, Pearl Harbor, 9/11, (maybe) Oklahoma City, etc.? I wondered because I remember hearing people talk about it like this and I personally thought it would be remembered as an isolated crime, not something that dramatically altered our course as a nation or had something to do with our foreign policy, like Kent State.

[Captain Hilts]

1. No. nt

[madinmaryland]

2. Absolutely not, except for the folks at VT.

This country is more concerned about Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton. Those are the generation defining moments.

:grr:

[otherlander]

40. I don't think that the country

is actually as concerned with them as the media says we are.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

3. I Don't Know but as a Tech Alumnus......

I'm absolutely disgusted at their attempt to use this tragedy for fund raising. It disgusts me.

[Enrique]

4. if it happened during normal times, it would be

but during the Bush administration, it has to compete with a bunch of other horrors.

[marions ghost]

7. that's what I was gonna say...

in post 9-11 America, a random psycho-killer's grande finale becomes just part of the endless parade of horrors, only notable because of the large body-count.

We are losing our ability to be shocked. That's when you get the creeping numbness...

[Blue_Tires]

5. it will be for some, not others...

for whatever reason, the single biggest event that changed forever how I think about the U.S., corporations and people in general is Enron

[bryant69]

6. There are no generation defining moments and there never will be again

Maybe there never were.

We are all alone in an uncaring universe, cut off not just from anything greater than humanity, but from each other. To have a generation defining moment, you have to have the idea that your generation matters and we all now know that it really doesn't.

OK, maybe that's a little too dark.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[karlrschneider]

8. No.

...

[billbuckhead]

9. In other nations similar incidents have changed their guns laws

America is so bloodthirsty that it will probably take something more, maybe 100 killed with black rifles. With millions of Americans already sacrificed on the alter of the belief of any gun for any nut, what's a couple of dozen more?

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[krispos42]

25. How long until he mentions the gun homicide rate in the UK?

:-)

[billbuckhead]

59. 46 gun homicides last year in the UK, the lowest in over twenty years

and the gun "enthusiasts" boo!

[krispos42]

60. 800+ homicides last year, the highest in 40 years!

And the gun banners cheer!

[Richard Steele]

64. Quite simply not true. Not even close. nm

[NYVet]

22. I must disagree with you

Our legislators pass more and more gun laws and we still have the crimes being committed.

What needs to be done is the gun laws be enforced.


And would you please explain what you mean by "Black rifles"?

[iverglas]

34. and I'll disagree with you

The mass school shootings in Canada -- at the Ecole Polytechnique and, last year, at Dawson College -- were committed by people in lawful possession of firearms.

As was the Dunblane shooting in England. And as was a similar shootings in Australia, although oops, it seems that while that gun was legally owned, it wasn't legally possessed by the person who used it to kill a lot of other people.

So it seems that "the gun laws be enforced" wouldn't have had any effect in those cases, since no gun laws were being broken. Unless you count the one about not shooting people with them.

What gun laws do you have in mind that need to be enforced -- and that, if enforced, could reasonably be expected to reduce the risk of such shootings occurring?




http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF02.htm

Most Mass Gun Killers are also Legal Gun Owners - Research

The following data were prepared in the wake of the shooting in Erfurt, Germany, 26 April 2002.

In the 14 deadliest mass shootings committed in wealthy nations during the past 35 years:

* 79% of the victims were shot with lawfully held firearms (185 of 233 victims)
* 86% of these mass shooting (12 of 14) were committed by lawful gun owners

Many killers, like the 19-year-old who shot 16 people dead at his school in Germany, were previously law-abiding sporting shooters or pistol club members - men whose legal ownership of guns was not questioned by authorities until after the tragedy.

Deadliest Mass Shootings (10 or more dead) in Western Democracies 1966-2002

Date - Place - Dead - Legal status

26 Apr 2002 Erfurt, Germany - 16 + 1 - Legal guns, pistol club member
27 Sep 2001 Zug, Switzerland - 14 + 1 - Legal guns, licensed pistol owner
29 Jul 1999 Atlanta, GA, USA - 12 + 1 - Legal guns, no licence required
20 Apr 1999 Littleton, CO, USA - 13 + 2 - Not legal guns
28 Apr 1996 Port Arthur, Australia - 35 - Legal guns*
13 Mar 1996 Dunblane, Scotland - 17 + 1 - Legal guns, pistol club member
16 Oct 1991 Killeen, TX, USA - 23 + 1 - Legal guns, no licence required
13 Nov 1990 Aramoana, New Zealand - 13 + 1 - Legal guns, licensed gun owner
18 Jun 1990 Jacksonville, FL, USA - 9 + 1 - Legal guns, no licence required
06 Dec 1989 Montreal, Canada - 14 + 1 - Legal guns, no licence required
19 Aug 1987 Hungerford, England - 16 + 1 - Legal guns, pistol club member
20 Aug 1986 Edmond, OK, USA - 14 + 1 - Legal guns, no licence required
18 Jul 1984 San Ysidro, CA, USA - 21 + 1 - Legal guns, no licence required
01 Aug 1966 Austin, TX, USA - 16 + 1 - Legal guns, no licence required

* Gunman had no gun licence and his possession and use of the guns was illegal

Philip Alpers, Harvard Injury Control Research Center, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA.

In a study of 65 high-profile multiple-victim shootings in the United States during 40 years, 62% of handgun shootings and 71% of long gun shootings were committed with legally acquired firearms (Violence Policy Center, 2001)

[Skittles]

63. it would help

if you could come up with more than rightwing talking points

[davidwparker]

10. No. I live in the Commonwealth and I don't even think about it anymore.

Tragic? Yes. How often do you think of Columbine?

[soothsayer]

12. same here

[Rocknrule]

18. Seeing as I live in CO, fairly often

But in other parts of the country, probably not too much. VT gave me an idea of what Columbine was like as a news story in the rest of America: center of the universe for about a week, then forgotten.

[dailykoff]

11. It served its function,

which was to postpone the Gonzales hearings, so unless it can be of use in some other GOP scam, it will probably be forgotten.

[Beelzebud]

13. No. Outside VT, no one talks about it at all anymore.

[slackmaster]

14. It was to anyone who was directly affected

To most of the rest of us it was just a mass murder by a deranged nut case.

[billbuckhead]

15. A mass murder that could only have been committed with guns

Easily obtained guns.

[karlrschneider]

20. Timothy McVeigh used easily obtained fertilizer, genius.

:eyes:
(And murdered 165 people)

[ProfessorGAC]

21. Not Exactly

He used ammonium nitrate which is not that easily obtained. He had to have help to buy a quantity like he did without arrousing suspicion. NH4NO3 is only a small component of most commercial fertilizers. And, he did have to get primer from somewhere. Diesel oil and nitrate doesn't just self-detonate.

I do agree with you, however, that guns are not the only avenue of mass murder. Just picking a nit about the fertilizer thing.
The Professor

[billbuckhead]

32. AND LATER SAID HE WISHED HE WOULD HAVE USED A GUN

Besides, Mc Veigh probably had help and the big truck probably would have drawn attention but I know that doesn't matter to those blinded by gun powder.

[slackmaster]

29. And to someone obsessed with guns

Well, there you have it.

[Richard Steele]

65. Too bad he wasn't limited to a box cutter, right Bill?

nm

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. Yeah, and Collective Soul is the new Oasis.

:eyes:

[krispos42]

17. No, it is another ongoing tragedy

Americans have owned guns more or less freely for 230 years. The last decade or so, all of a sudden it becomes chic to take out your problems with a blaze of gunfire.

I guess the way corporate America treats workers, we should not be too surprised when some outsources/displaced worker decides to do it. But the kids????

I, of course, blame the Republicans for this. The destruction of the unions tore apart the family unit. Instead of just dad working in a plant or machine shop someplace, making enough money with his union job to afford a modest home, decent furniture and clothing, and plenty of food, we have families where both parents have to work.

And the jobs don't have much paid vacation, don't have a pension, and skimp on the vacation time. So, with Mom and Dad both working long hours to make ends meet, to afford a modest home, decent furniture and clothing, plenty of food, and maybe cable TV and internet... who's raising the kids?

Cribs? Pimp My Ride? Grand Theft Auto? YouTube? Jackass?

[keroro gunsou]

23. i object!

placing the blame on any form of media, such as video games is weak. i'd blame bad parenting before i blame a video game for someone's "issue."

having said that, i'd wager the lack and poor quality of mental health in this country is a bigger, generation defining tragedy, and one to certainly blow up (no pun intended) in our faces.

apologies for my soapboxing, but it annoys me to no end when someone suggests that video games are a factor in how a person acts.

how a person acts is a factor in what games they like to play. and if a person decides they want kill a few dozen people, they've got bigger problems than Grand Theft Auto.

[krispos42]

24. It's not media in and of itself

It's media without any other competition. Except for other kids who are also largely left to their own devices for amusement.

That vast gap between when school ends and the parents get home is being filled with kids raising each other.

[Hippo_Tron]

68. Yup, video games don't cause school shootings any more than pictures of skinny women cause Anorexia

Both are generally do to mental health conditions that go untreated until it is too late. Most kids won't shoot up their school after playing Grand Theft Auto and most girls won't develop severe eating disorders after watching the Victoria Secret Fashion Show.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. I know, just look at the Bath School Bombing.

I've no idea what sort of violent video game that guy was playing back in 1927, but it must have been a doozy.

[krispos42]

35. Andrew Kehoe was 55 at the time

Hardly an angry youth.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. So then it must have been those horrible 19th video games.

Damn this culture of violence!

[krispos42]

44. The answer is Columbine and Virginia Tech

What are two student-performed school massacres that greatly impacted America, Alex?

That's right! You're in the lead with $2300. Your next catagory?





As an aside, considering that he was raised in the shadow of the Civil War, that might have had something to do with it.

Interestingly enough, he didn't use a gun, even though at the time you could buy a fully-automatic Tommy Gun with all the 100-round drum magazines you wanted by mail order.


<edit: spelling>

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. Columbine and VT greatly affected America?

I suppose in the way that Jon Benet Ramsey and that Aruba girl greatly affected America.

:eyes:

"As an aside, considering that he was raised in the shadow of the Civil War, that might have had something to do with it."

You don't suppose mental illness and financial insolvency had something to do with it? Nah, that's too logical.

The real problem is video games and lack of praying hard enough.

[krispos42]

48. Supposedly, he had enough to pay off his debt

His assets, before they went up in a fireball, were enough to pay off his morgage.

He was simply not suited to be a farmer and wouldn't admit it. He should have been a mechanic or inventor or something.

As to mental illness... he watched his (disliked?) stepmother burn in an oil fire for a few minutes before dumping a bucket of water on her to put her out, and she died of her injuries. The conditions of his childhood may have had something to do with it, easily.

If his father or other male relatives had fought in the Civil War, the attitudes and stories they brought back may have influenced him as well.

I mentioned nothing about praying. Not my thing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Blaming video games... blaming lack of prayer...

Blaming demon posession... blaming dungeons and dragons... blaming heavy metal music...

It's all the same crap.

[krispos42]

51. I'm blaming lack of parenting, at least in large part

driven by neocon globalization idiots and anti-union free-market nuts, that don't put things like television and video games in context or perspective.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. Blaming parents is all the rage too.

Lack of parenting used to be the leading cause of autism, you know.

[Rocknrule]

53. Yea, and God must've played alot of SimCity

to want to cause Hurricane Katrina

[Perky]

27. I think it is all but forgottten

It will be durted off every year....like Columbine... but the population has becomed quire Jaded to these events

[qdemn7]

28. Nope, absolutely not.

Five years from now the only people that will remember will be VT Alumni. And anti-gun zealots like billbuckhead.

[HuffleClaw]

30. No n/t

[iverglas]

31. the Montreal massacre was for Canada

It focused public attention on violence against women and firearms violence and generated wide discussion of both issues, and the victims continue to be remembered in ceremonies every year.

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-70-398/disasters_tragedies/montreal_massacre/

For 45 minutes on Dec. 6, 1989 an enraged gunman roamed the corridors of Montreal's École Polytechnique and killed 14 women. Marc Lepine, 25, separated the men from the women and before opening fire on the classroom of female engineering students he screamed, "I hate feminists." Almost immediately, the Montreal Massacre became a galvanizing moment in which mourning turned into outrage about all violence against women.

The misogyny behind the VT murders is not widely acknowledged:
http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2007/04/virginia_tech_women.html

Of all the lessons contained in the horror at Virginia Tech, the one least likely to be learned has to do with the deadly danger posed by the dismissive way we still view violence against women.

I doubt that the VT murders will have a particularly defining effect on US society. Events such as those are all too common, even if not usually involving such large numbers. Firearms violence itself, of course, is now very certainly a defining factor in the lives of each new generation in the US.

[krispos42]

36. An interesting aside, it's the "Featured Story" on Wikipedia today n/t

[iverglas]

38. interesting indeed, thanks

How do they pick featured stories? I wonder. It isn't an anniversary or anything ...

Link to the whole article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre

[krispos42]

42. Sometimes it seems random

Sometimes it seems related to current events or popular culture

:shrug:

[piedmont]

33. no, for exactly the reasons you gave. nt

[WinkyDink]

39. No way. It's virtually forgotten already, IMHO.

[Mike Daniels]

41. Nope

I know a good number of VT graduates and they don't even think of it that much esp. since they were long graduated (20 years or more) by the time the shooting took place.

[insane_cratic_gal]

43. Would you compare it to the Columbine shootings?

I think it's on that level, but perhaps we are now desensitized to it because of columbine?

I agree it is not changing the course of history like JFK, 9/11 etc, but it is giving us a view in the type of world in which we live and the world in which we are going to send our children out into to?
Maybe?

[Rocknrule]

54. Yes, I agree

VT is to Columbine what 9/11 was to Oklahoma City: it dwarfed the previous "worst" tragedy of a particular sort. I think Kent State was more of a generation defining moment because although there were fewer deaths, it had to do with our nation's foreign policy at the time, whereas Columbine, VT, and the Texas sniper shootings seemed more like isolated crimes committed to settle personal scores.

[benEzra]

57. Also, Kent State was perpetrated by the government...

and involved government soldiers shooting unarmed protesters.

As much a tragedy as VT was--can you imagine if it had been a squad of U.S. Army or the Virginia State Police who had shot those students, rather than a lone loser? That must have been part of the horror of Kent State, I think, the governmental/institutional aspect of the killings. (I'm only 36, so I wasn't born yet, so I'm sort of looking at this from outside.)

[pitohui]

45. no i don't think so

there are always bigger and better school shootings, they don't really define generations any more, they are just the latest and the greatest

the texas tower shooting was different because it was the first in a series but now these things happen semi-regularly

i think the impact of the va tech shooting will be traumatic for survivors and students on the scene, but in the wider world, it is just one of those unhappy events, these days you just accept that part of the hazard of going to the post office or to school is that some nut might start shooting

[Midlodemocrat]

47. I don't think so. I believe that Columbine was the generation

defining moment of school violence.

[lies and propaganda]

49. No. Katrina was.

and the definition was disgusting...

[benEzra]

58. Agreed. (n/t)

[JacquesMolay]

55. I think it was another day in America ...

... it's not like we hear about it everyday, and I definitely don't think that it had as big an effect on society as the Columbine massacre.

[krispos42]

62. It was less than 19 hours in America. Not even a whole day

Some 40 people are murdered daily in America.

15,000 per year, about, divided by 365 equals 41 per day. Cho killed 32, and 32÷41×24=18.73 hours.

18 hours, 43 minutes, 48 seconds.



Unlike Columbine, in which I believe the kids purchased the guns using false identification, Cho did everything by the book. The massacre exposed a large loophole in the law which as since been fixed, and presumebly other states will look at their own laws and make the appropriate corrections.

[ecstatic]

56. No, because times are different and people are jaded to this type of thing

It really takes something on the magnitude of 911 or greater to really get people these days.

[LostInAnomie]

61. Nope

The only reasons it was even more than a two day story is the sheer numbers killed, and the media willingly being played by showing the shooter's video.

School shootings have become so commonplace anymore that unless there is something particularly noteworthy (VT, Amish School shootings) it's barely a five minute story on the nightly news. It really says more about us than it does the shooters.

[tom_paine]

66. No. 12/12/2000 was this generation's defining moment

No 12/12, no 9/11 (or a severely diminished version).

9/11 will always be talked about it as such, but as with Liberals and Jews in Nazis Germany KNEW that Feb 26th, the date of the Reichstag Fire, was a date NOTHING really changed, but that the day Hitler was installed as Chancellor, was the REAL day everything changed.

As was 12/12/2000.

All the rest was a continual and slow-motion "removing of the mask", as Amerika under Bushler has experienced these last 6.5 years.

That's the reality of it. Whatever the great mass of Imperial Subjects believe which their tyrannical government innoculated them with, are as irrelevant to reality today with Bushies as it was in 1939 with Nazis, for they are two group immediately entwined, not just by the blood and financial ties of the Imperial Bush Family, but in strategies and tactics, especially in the areas of propaganda and deception of their own people.

[Hippo_Tron]

67. No, but I think Columbine was