If I hear one more rant about how independents and third parties are the only

[mrcheerful]

way we are going to get out of this mess of GW's, I'm going to kick the next one in the balls. I'm so fed up with these losers expecting others to fix their problems for them. If you don't agree with your party then get off your ass and work with others to change what you don't like. Change comes from the inside out not the outside in. If your not willing to put any effort into change, then change will not happen. If work, shopping or what ever is more important then what your government does, you deserve the government you get. Remember these are elected government wqorkers that serve we the people not the other way around. Treat them as public servents and demand that they either toe the line or they wil be replaced by someone that will.

[TechBear_Seattle]

1. What is so wrong with actual choice at the polls?

I thought Democrats supported real democracy.

[Tom Joad]

11. democracy bad, tech-bear. in some people's view.

[NoodleBoy]

13. so you're insinuating that the OP thinks democracy is bad? very nice.

[Chulanowa]

20. Nothing's wrong with Democracy

But a little rational thought goes a long way. What third party is going to get us out of this, d'ya think? The Greens are bought and paid for by the Republicans. The Libertarian party? Bought and paid for by the Republicans. How about the Joe Lieberman party? Bought and paid for by... wait for it... The Republicans. Probably the only third party that isn't a stooge for the Republicans is the Constitution Party, and that's only because they're too crazy even for the Republicans.

So when you say you want a third party, you're saying you want a disorganized and inexperienced party joined at the hip with the GOP machine.

Again, democracy is well and good, but our third parties aren't really involved in it as such.

[Le Taz Hot]

32. And the current "leaders" of the Democratic Party

are bought and paid for by the SAME corporations that support the Republicans. Your point?

[Chulanowa]

34. The point is, there are no third parties

There is a clear independence between Democrats and Republicans. Some particularly jaded or sour people may have trouble seeing it, but the rest of us have no problem noticing. There is less distinction between the other parties and the Republicans.

If you vote Democratic, you'll get a Democrat. Maybe not the best one in the world, but still light years ahead of the competition. If you elect a Green or a Libertarian, what are you getting? A Republican. You would have been better off just electing the Republican, at least that would cut back a bit on the chain of bureaucracy.

[last_texas_dem]

37. There's nothing wrong with having more choices at the polls

but, because of how America's system works, third party or independent candidates are extremely unlikely to get elected and even more extremely unlikely to be able to get anything done in the government if they are.

[acmavm]

2. Yep! That's working so well now.

Knock it off. People have the right to be pissed off and frustrated. People like you shouldn't click on threads if you don't like what they say. Read the title. Save yourself some grief.

[NoodleBoy]

4. practice what you preach, then.

[acmavm]

14. Hey, I'm not the one telling people to shut up. But I am making a

special exemption for you.

[NoodleBoy]

17. your post implies that it's ok for people who are pissed off to support third party or independent

candidates.

This thread is about people who think those people are wrong.

Is that ok for you?

[acmavm]

18. My post 'implies' that it is fair, right, and sensible to people to

discuss EVERY option of solving our current problem. Not just what you want to hear. Especially since what we need most is not being pushed by the leaders of our party.

[NoodleBoy]

19. and we're disagreeing with the notion that third parties or independets is the way out, and in my

case with the assumption that the current leaders of the Democratic party are worthless. Is that ok, even though it's not what you want to hear?

[acmavm]

22. Think what you want. Unlike you, I believe that's your right.

I may think you're totally wrong, but you have every right to talk and think that way.

[NoodleBoy]

3. word. it's easy to complain on the internet about things, so many of the supposed netroots just

can't seem to get to that point where they get out of their houses and volunteer.

[crispini]

7. Right on. The power of the internet lies in information.

But there is so much more power in taking it "real" i.e. going to find out what's happening in your own community and getting involved. I know a lot of DU'ers *are* involved... but there are so many many more DU'ers who are *not* involved, and I for one think that's pretty sad.

[NoodleBoy]

12. yeah. I'm still somewhat amazed that most on DU are more likely to know Karl Rove's second assistant

underling's name--and have nicknames for him-- but not the names of their municipal or state elected officials.

[dkofos]

5. I'm tired of party hacks of both parties putting the party before the people.

[mzmolly]

8. What about third party hacks?

:hi:

[dkofos]

10. Them too. But I don't know of any.

[mzmolly]

16. Yeah, that's what I thought.

:hi:

[Bitwit1234]

6. The thing I find absolutely wrong with a third party (at this time)

is, they don't have enough members to make a difference. They will only take votes away from the democrats and ANY DEMOCRAT is 10,000 times better than a republican.

[Always AskWhy]

21. Anybody remember

Nader?

[Tom Joad]

9. If i hear one more rant against contested elections...

[Individualist]

15. If I see one more attempt at browbeating...

:puke:

[TheWraith]

23. Kicked and recommended. NT

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

24. Yup. Voting 3rd Party Or Indy Nowadays Is Just Plain Stupid.

Hence, my avatar.

[saracat]

25. Love your avatat! And isn't it against DU rules to support third partys against Dems?

[JacquesMolay]

26. One problem with your analysis ...

... it doesn't mention the world 'Money'. Big Business and special interests have bought up both parties. They've got an army of people trained to stop activists from changing anything.

[Le Taz Hot]

33. Shhhh!!!

That is the 800 pound gorilla they don't want to talk about. All "D"'s are AUTOMATICALLY better than all "R's". Didn't you get the memo? ;-)

[LWolf]

27. Indies and 3rd partiers are the only way we'll ever going to get out of this mess.

I don't have balls, btw. I have ovaries. You can try to kick them, but then your own gonads are at risk.


Truthfully, I don't think independents and 3rd party voters are the ONLY way we can climb out of cesspool the U.S. is currently swimming in. I just found your little threatening temper tantrum entertaining. That's one of my personal flaws; tell me not to do something, or tell me that I can't, and I'm likely to do it just to watch your reaction. I don't take direction well, to say the least. I'm also not intimidated by temper tantrums. :popcorn:

I am not the least bit uncomfortable with saying that I also don't think most of the candidates offered up for '08 are the ONLY way out, either.


I think independents, 3rd parties, and clean, non-corporate, non-DLC, non-third-way Democrats are certainly a part of any viable path out, and I think that fighting your potential allies is a monumental error.

[Pastiche423]

28. Well, mrcheerful

You done your party good by ostricizing Independents.

Heck of a job!

:sarcasm:

[sandnsea]

29. Just attack the BIGGER enemy

What is so hard about running on a different set of values, but attacking the right wing radicals who are the biggest threat. I wouldn't have a problem with a far left third party, if they would focus their attention on the radical policies of the wingnuts instead of confusing the issues by saying Democrats and Republicans are all the same.

[Bake]

30. LIke it or not, what we have is a two-party system.

In the 21st Century, barring something unforeseen, a third-party candidate is not going to win the White House. Nor is a third party going to gain a majority in either house of Congress.

So then, if real change is to happen, it's going to have to come from one of the two major parties. You may not like it, but that's the inescapable conclusion.

I choose, therefore, to work within the system.

Bake

[CTyankee]

36. Working within the party is exactly what the neocons and fundies did.

Result: they made the Republican Party the ascendant party and won election after election. So we know it works.

With the Republican Party, of course, their downfall is their sheer arrogance, stupidity and their incredible lack of humanity. But they had to work within their own party to obtain power and they did it. They had to expunge practically all of the socalled "liberal Republicans" and send them to the ranks of Independents or Democrats.

So you are correct, Bake. If we can do what the Republicans did, only with the smarts we have and our own sense of decency and humanity, then we'll succeed. What we do with our success then is the real question.

[Le Taz Hot]

31. Well, as a bleeding-heart, bed-wetting liberal,

I did indeed try to bring our local Democratic Party out of the 1920's but they made it quite clear that my services were not needed (after trying for 3 years).

I did not leave the Democratic Party. It left me. The sooner the "Party-before-country" folks understand that, the sooner they can begin mending fences with those of us who remember what the Democratic Party is SUPPOSED to be.

So you see, my dear, it's not quite as cut-and-dry and you make things out to be.

[Beelzebud]

35. When people do work for change, they are labeled "media whores" and other bullshit.

'Hold their feet to the fire', then when someone does they're branded whores and nut cases for bothering the poor dems who won't do anything.