who thinks Pat Tillman was murdered intentionally?

[Onceuponalife]

I'm not sure what to believe anymore. Pat Tillman was from my part of the country, so I guess this irks me more than most things about this war. Tillman signed on for Afghanistan, not Iraq, and when he started to voice his dissatisfaction with the Iraq War, he turned up dead. Coincidence or something else? You decide. Go!!

[LaPera]

1. Well, they burned Tillman's uniform & his diaries, He was shot in the forehead at close range,

3 times...We know that the person who shot him was not the "enemy. Tillman was a democrat. He was vocal & disenchanted about the war in Iraq at an early & very critical time for BushCo (2004 before the elections)... The only shots fired in the whole incident were three in tight grouping to Tillman's head". His parent's don't believe a word of the governments official story...what do you think...Does anyone know more than his parents?

How can it be claimed there's no evidence when it's openly acknowledged that Bush is putting an "executive privilege" blanket over that same evidence?

The fact that this was covered up for years is all the evidence I need to know that a crime was committed.

[Bobbieo]

11. This is all very upsetting to me. My grandson is in Afghanistan

and it you can't put faith in your government or the military - who can you trust any more? One lie after another!!!! I cannot believe Rumsfeld was not aware of this tragedy from day one.

There is something very wrong here and I don't think it is going to just go away, either as this is the kind of thing that will stay with people. A human life is involved and my heart goes out to Mary Tillman.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

12. Has the burning of his uniform and journal been verified?

If true, that sounds like the act of person with a guilty mind. To date, I haven't seen even one reference to the burning of the uniform and journal anywhere on television news programs. Is that an Internet rumor or is it something the military has admitted to? Or where did that information come from?

[LaPera]

23. "They burn his uniform, a silver star.The other hidden element is Blackwater and the tons of CIA...

I've had this for a couple of days and just copied it...check it out, and I will try and find the link...

"I have know for quite sometime that Pat Tillman was murdered. My understanding was based on my background in the military, some of the research by Michael Ruppert (who is now out of commission - while he promoted the Peak Oil junk and claimed that Gary Webb (another true patriot dead) likely killed himself - the powers to be damn near killed him - he is out of country - office "burglarized" and From The Wilderness virtually shut down) and Stan Geoff (former Army), along with the obvious facts around the case.

When I heard that Tillmans uniform was burned after he was shot - I didn't need to hear anything else - burning someones clothing after a death by shooting is probable cause in any criminal court. It is ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

Further, the story did not make sense. His team was on a village raid mission. One of the vehicles breaks down. Contrary to SOP (standard operating procedure), someone gives an order for the team to split - one team will proceed with the raid - the other will stay will the vehicle - presumably to fix it....Tillman is somehow stuck with Afghan troops. Someway, somehow things get cloudy and the team gets lost, went in a circle (who the hell knows - that's what happens when you make up stories) and wind up seeing the Afghan guys (who just happen to be with Tillman) - they open fire on the Afghan guys - Tillman cranks out a friendly smoke canister - the team ceases fire. Tillman pops up waving, yelling and clearly visible and then someone gives another order to re-initiate fire. And his head is cleared. They burn his uniform, a silver star (never before in history) is in the works before the smoke cleared and he becomes a heroic friendly fire victim. Pat Tillman btw is not the only one - it was standard op in Vietnam (knocking off people for interfered w/the mission) and it's standard op today!!

There is so much wrong with this story it is ridiculous to detail. Now we find out that Tillman was blasted from yards away and there is no evidence of enemy fire - clearly a hit.

The question is who did the hit. Many GI's will comply with whatever is thrown in their face. I guarantee there are dozens of bone headed, 10 IQ soldiers out there who could be told that Tillman is complicit with the enemy and we are under orders to take him out. There are many others who would do it because they thought he was an asshole and fu....ng up the mission.

The other hidden element is Blackwater and the tons of CIA operatives. You guys need to check out the book Blackwater. They are running at over 100K strong and are Cheney/Rumsfeld (yeah he is still around) private military - the largest, unprecedented private mercenary force in the world. They hired brutes from Chilies notorious special forces and other brutal forces from around the globe. They will do absolutely anything for a fee. You need a little sectarian violence - you send in Blackwater and/or a CIA spook team. It's quite possible that the team that knocked Tillman off (on the off chance that you had a team of decent operators that would not shoot their guy in the back) was composed of some of Cheney's private operators. Just like a bunch of Blackwater type operatives (with no allegiance to this country) were probably the ones who spent months wiring up WTC.....therein lies the treasonous nature of allowing a standing US govt. official to own & operate his own private military force. The media pretends they do not exist - over 100K on the ground in Iraq....

We have to do our duty as citizens and rally for justice!! Those of you who defend the govt. w/respect to their obligation to provide transparency and answers to the peoples questions regarding the war, Tillman, 9-11, Enron, the firing of attorneys, the arrest of the border agents, the house of death case......are pure traitors and are operating inconsistent with the spirit of our Constitution. You are beyond coward, because you are thwarting the will & obligation of the people as vested in them by the Constitution to demand answers and to serve as the ultimate check on a corruptible government."

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

32. That's pretty interesting about Blackwater - but I was wondering about the original source

The original source for the information about the burning of the uniform and journal.

In the hearings before Congress, I'd like to see the Representatives build the case from the ground up, if possible, starting with any eye-witnesses and information about the incident such as the burning of the uniform, and then going step-by-step up the chain of command, as far as they can go. Of course, some individuals might start pleading the 5th.

[LaPera]

34. It seems "John Q" (below) has something - I'm sure others will come up with a link....

I'm still trying to find my link...I'm sure I will...so hold on....

[eridani]

47. What we really need here is a timeline

This is all suspicion--not unreasonable, but we need evidence.

[John Q. Citizen]

31. It has by the documents his family recieved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUGR8BZpOYk

Watch the testimony in congress

[MADem]

39. He was an atheist, too, apparently. And the only guy badmouthing him is an unnamed chaplain.

Good old Chaplain NAME REDACTED...

I think he may have been fragged, myself. But I just don't know.

You know what they say--it's not the crime, it's the COVERUP. Involuntary manslaughter/friendly fire is one thing; but that whole fake Silver Star business, the eagerness to sweep the whole mess under the rug--did they JUST use this as a lemons-into-lemonade flagwaving distraction, or was there more to it?

But you just cannot trust our government anymore. Not even a little. It's kind of sad.

A bit on the ATHEIST business, from last year: http://www.futureofthebook.org/mitchellstephens/archives/2006/07/pat_tillman_non.html

Lt. Col. Kauzlarich's discomfort with atheism is interesting:

In an interview with ESPN.com, Kauzlarich said: "When you die, I mean, there is supposedly a better life, right? Well, if you are an atheist and you don't believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing, and now he is no more — that is pretty hard to get your head around that. So I don't know how an atheist thinks. I can only imagine that that would be pretty tough."

Guess that's true. Guess atheists do find death "pretty tough."

Asked by ESPN.com whether the Tillmans' religious beliefs are a factor in the ongoing investigation, Kauzlarich said, "I think so. There is not a whole lot of trust in the system or faith in the system . So that is my personal opinion, knowing what I know."

Here, in response, is Tillman's mother:

Well, this guy makes disparaging remarks about the fact that we're not Christians, and the reason that we can't put Pat to rest is because we're not Christians," Mary Tillman, Pat's mother, said in an interview with ESPN.com. Mary Tillman casts the family as spiritual, though she said it does not believe in many of the fundamental aspects of organized religion.
"Oh, it has nothing to do with the fact that this whole thing is shady," she said sarcastically, "But it is because we are not Christians."
After a pause, her voice full with emotion, she added, "Pat may not have been what you call a Christian. He was about the best person I ever knew. I mean, he was just a good guy. He didn't lie. He was very honest. He was very generous. He was very humble.
...The Tillman family has continued to try to push through layers of Army bureaucracy for answers, about both the death of their son and the appearance that Pat Tillman's Army life, and death, might have been used for political purposes.

[WinkyDink]

62. I think it IS "the crime"---of MURDER.

[devilgrrl]

2. I think he was whacked... Soprano style.

Yep, I think he was murdered.

[adadem]

3. Nothing

would shock me anymore...this reeks of Rove.

Yeah I think they took him out to silence him.

[pepperbear]

4. meetings with chomsky, a true American football/war hero who's who opposes the war....

anythings's possible with that scenario.

[Bjornsdotter]

5. Without a doubt n/t

[merh]

6. and Rumsfield was willing to answer to Congress

no "executive privilege" claim for him.

He was too ready and willing to say, "we made mistakes"

Now that he testified, we all should be content and move on. :sarcasm:

Nothing to see here folks, move along ......

[aquart]

7. Uh, me.

How do you accidentally shoot someone three times in the forehead?

[ClayZ]

8. I do.

K and R

[lpbk2713]

9. I do.

But will we ever know?

Probably not.

[silverweb]

10. No brainer.

The only questions remaining are by whom and exactly why.

[dailykoff]

13. I don't doubt it for a second.

Sadly, this is business as usual for the NeoCons, who make a habit of using US intelligence agencies to take out political enemies, and somebody decided Tillman was a political enemy. I imagine it was the same guy who earns "capital" from stolen elections.

[illinoisprogressive]

14. Don't know enough yet to make a judgement.

[Onceuponalife]

15. I brought this up in another forum

last year before this new evidence emerged and I was basically told I was crazy. This was in a largely liberal forum, also! here is part of my most recent post:

"I've seen no evidence of any kind of dishonesty from his family. They just want to know the truth that's been kept from them for so long. At first they were told he died from contact with the enemy, then they admitted months later that it was actually friendly fire that killed him. Now new evidence has come to light that there were three bullet holes found on his forehead that could only have been fired at close range. He repeatedly screamed at them that he was "Pat grrrrrring Tillman," before he was shot. The doctor that treated him at the scene noticed details that were very inconsistent with the official line about how Tillman died. This doctor informed his commander of this and was told basically to shut up about it. This whole mess screams of a cover up. How far up it goes, I have no idea. Rumsfeld denies it, but of course he would deny it if it were true. Several soldiers from Abu Graib prison have come forward and said the torture techniques applied there on prisoners, including water boarding (if you want to know what that's like, check out the new movie "Rescue Dawn"), were approved in writing by Rumsfeld. So I have no reason to take anything he says as truth.

If everything is so innocent about the Tillman incident, then why do new details keep coming out from credible witnesses, revealing more lies piled on top of lies? Why can't the Tillmans get the truth out of anybody? America sends their sons and daughters to fight in a war, trusting that it was the right thing to do. The least they deserve is the truth about what killed their children. If it's the result of a grrrrrrup, admit it Goddamnit! That's a lot easier to accept than having your own government lie to you. Instead we get soldiers that are treated like crap out in the field without the proper equipment and their tours of duty extended beyong what was promised to them when they were recruited, many of them had their GI Bills that were supposed to fund their college education reneged on them, and when they do make it home with injuries, what happens? They end up in shitholes like Walter Reed hospital where the medical care they get is far worse then the care we give terrorism suspects at Guantanamo. I don't know why potential recruits still believe the garbage they are told at recruiting stations who will tell them anything to fill their recruitment quotas. Talk about propaganda....

Ya know, I have no way to know if he was intentionally murdered or not. But it was known that Pat was very outspoken against the Iraq war and he was a man of very strong principles. If he was planning on publicly condemning Bush and the war, which with his popularity and celebrity would carry a lot of weight with people, would this be reason enough to have him silenced? That's something to think very seriously about especially in light of the recent revelations about assassination plots conducted in the past by the CIA. Silencing dissent has happened many times in the past and there's no reason to think it won't continue to happen."

[Trajan]

16. Murder is to intentionally cause the death of another human being ...

without legal cause ....

Since it is well known that human beings regularly kill other human beings without legal cause, time and time again, it would be reasonable (at the least) to presume it is possible to be so in this case ....

That being said: If the implication is that someone higher up the food chain called for a 'hit' of Tillman, well, I greatly doubt THAT is true .... Why would they need to ? .... Couldn't the powers that be trump up charges against him and hold him silently in perpetuity ? ....

Surely Tillman is just as exposed to psychotic nutcases in Afghanistan as we are here; the only difference being the presence of heavy weapons, and the fear rampant in a war zone ....

Tillman may have been killed by a fellow soldier who wanted, for whatever reason, to shoot Tillman dead .....

Honestly: There is no new ground broken in human history by someone like Tillman being killed .... Sad and pathetic: yes .....

Unusual ? ...... not in the least ....

Unlike Abu Ghraib : This (the murder) has nothing to do with the Pentagon brass, or with the party in power .... The Coverup was more about preserving an image than about hiding a conspiracy ....

[Poll_Blind]

17. I wouldn't be surprised if he was killed intentionally. BUT...

...I don't subscribe to anything about it having to do with Bush's BFEE or anything like that.

  Despite the fact that Tillman looked like a total asshole jock, he just might have been the most thoughtful, commanding presence in his squad. And that could have been fatal. His last words are reported from at least two sources (the chaplain who was hugging ground by him and another, can't remember) are him dressing down another soldier.

  There's all kinds of balls in the military and maybe a fellow Ranger didn't like the fact that Tillman, the star with the million-dollar career tossed it to join up. Or that he had to put up with Tillman's (insert whatever here).

  Since everything about Tillman's death, except that he was shot 3 times in the head, was apparently made up, his clothes were burned (causing the discharge of men from his unit) and some other things, I would not be terribly surprised if they did kill him intentionally.

  Sua Sponte, indeed!

PB

[bridgit]

18. A Neo Manchurian Moment on yet another road of death, neocon' are bent on leaving no happy endings..

for anyone, or anybody that disagrees with their plans of world dominion and will clearly stop at NOTHING to accomplish what they feel they need to...i'm just say'n

[yurbud]

19. consider the lengths they went to to fudge the Jessica Lynch story--even shooting at her ambulance

when the Iraqis tried to return her before they could stage their daring rescue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3028585.stm

[Beelzebud]

20. Burned his uniform and journal, 3 bullets in his head. I'd call that murder.

[The_Casual_Observer]

21. He was dead as soon as he signed up.

Wrong place wrong time.

[Blue_In_AK]

22. I don't have enough info

but two things really bother me -- why did they burn his diary and why did ** claim executive privilege.

[Onceuponalife]

26. well isn't "executive priveledge" the last refuge of the scoundrel?

[Blue_In_AK]

27. That's what I'm thinking...

This administration is full of them.

[tinrobot]

24. Murder is intentional

That's the definition.

So your question is kind of pointless.

[Onceuponalife]

29. yeah I realized after the fact I should have said "killed intentionally"

not "murdered". You are right. I was hoping no one would notice that slip.

[Bryn]

25. Nothing is Concidence

I think the higher slimes wanted him dead because they felt threatened by Pat Tillman. There are so many football fans that are both Repugs and dems who probably would listen to him and believe him. Who knows? The whole thing doesn't sit well with me. I am sorry he was taken out before he could help America out of illegal Iraq war once he came home.

[Usrename]

28. With extreme prejudice.

Three rounds in the forehead. Yes, he was murdered.

[Maru Kitteh]

30. My opinion? Tinfoil warriors, that's who.

Incompetent shitheads sent Tillman to war.
Incompetent shitheads accidently killed him.
Incompetent shitheads didn't know what to do when he ended up dead.
Incompetent shitheads covered it ('friendly' fire) up for as long as possible.
Incompetent shitheads are now trying to say they didn't try to cover his accidental death up.

Know why?
When Tillman died they were doing everything in their power to deny "the fog of war". Remember? Precision bombs we were told. Minimal collateral damage, the most technologically advanced military ever to take the field of battle.

Admitting Tillman was killed in the fog of war entailed ADMITTING there was a fog of war. It entailed admitting that not just innocent civillians, but our own military heroes would die in this fog.

The energy expended on a murky conspiracy would be better spent in pursuit of the fallout of statements like this:

Retired Gen. Richard Myers, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said he learned of the likelihood of friendly fire toward the end of April but that it wasn't his responsibility to inform the White House or the Tillman family.

"I don't think there's any regulation that would require me to do anything," said Myers. He blamed the Army.

[cynatnite]

38. Tillman was their recruiting poster, too...

I think that's part of the reason why they covered it up for as long as they did. I agree with you on everything else.

[Maru Kitteh]

41. Yes, cyanite, I agree with you. I'll bet they had all kinds of posters, ads, and

sales pitches they had to scrap. Such a "good story".

Fuckers.

[MADem]

42. I can't fucking BELIEVE that Myers said that. I just can't.

Did the asshole ever read his job description?

Chairman Responsibilities

The Goldwater-Nichols DOD Reorganization Act of 1986 identifies the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as the senior ranking member of the Armed Forces. As such, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is the principal military adviser to the President. He may seek the advice of and consult with the other JCS members and combatant commanders. When he presents his advice, he presents the range of advice and opinions he has received, along with any individual comments of the other JCS members.

Under the DOD Reorganization Act, the Secretaries of the Military Departments assign all forces to combatant commands except those assigned to carry out the mission of the Services, i.e., recruit, organize, supply, equip, train, service, mobilize, demobilize, administer and maintain their respective forces. The chain of command to these combatant commands runs from the President to the Secretary of Defense directly to the commander of the combatant command. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff may transmit communications to the commanders of the combatant commands from the President and Secretary of Defense but does not exercise military command over any combatant forces.

The Act also gives to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff some of the functions and responsibilities previously assigned to the corporate body of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The broad functions of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are set forth in Title 10, United States Code, and detailed in DOD Directive 5100.1. In carrying out his duties, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff consults with and seeks the advice of the other members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the combatant commanders, as he considers appropriate.

If he KNEW, and failed to advise the President, he FAILED THE PRESIDENT. Even though the President is a fucking idiot. If he KNEW, and did not tell him, he did not fulfill his advisor role in anything approaching an acceptable fashion.

Disgraceful.

[cynatnite]

43. I think he knew bush wouldn't want to be informed...

not trying to excuse the asshole because it was an obnoxious thing to say.

[MADem]

48. Wouldn't surprise me if you're right about that. But it still doesn't excuse him.

Hell, he was the NUMBAH ONE SUMBITCH in all of our Armed Forces. That means that he is expected to epitomize LEADERSHIP....and leadership includes having to go in and deliver tough, miserable, 'yank it out with pliers and DUCK' news to a superior.

If he didn't do that, he failed of his leadership responsibilities! The baaastid!

[Maru Kitteh]

44. Yeah, exactly. That's what we should be concentrating on.

Accountablility. It won't happen without us and it won't happen if we're chasing alien space saucers and secret black helicopters while ignoring what lies right before us.

[MADem]

50. Well, the new guy taking over used to be pretty good. Really.

Of course, there's a big difference between two and three...and FOUR stars. And when you're at four stars and the most senior lineal number in the Armed Services, well, we'll see.

But truly, he was OK back then, during the Clinton era--not an asshole, fairly mellow, and certainly no 'winger' if ya know what I mean.

[SeattleGirl]

33. I do. If it was friendly fire, why would they have burned his diary and uniform?

And why would the brass be slapping themselves on the back about avoiding scrutiny?

This is such a travesty, among so many.

[Onceuponalife]

35. I tend to lean the way the bulk of this forum does

I just would feel much better if there was some smoking gun. I hesitate to believe the worst, although my instincts are screaming otherwise...

[lligrd]

36. I Am Sure Of It

You don't burn possessions for no reason.

[eridani]

37. Don't know. Here are five possibilities

1. Someone higher up ordered the hit to get rid of a potentially embarassing campaigner for Kerry and the Dems in 2004, or to forestall undermining of popular support for the war.
2. It actually was a 'fog of war' incident, which higher-ups reflexively tried to cover up because Tillman was a poster boy and that would look much worse than the typical friendly fire incident. There are probably a few odd scenarios you could think up that might result in a panic shooting at 10 yards, and very unlikely things occasionally do really occur.
3. Personal rancor--someone didn't like it that he was anti-Bush, an atheist, promoted over their heads just because he was a football star, a smartypants intellectual, etc.
4. Tillman was preparing to reveal someone's wrongdoing (high-handedness with civilians, getting cozy with drug trafficking warlords, etc.) and was taken out to prevent this.
5. Tillman was the gung-ho sort who took on dangerous and pointless missions, and was killed by someone who didn't want to keep doing that. (Standard Vietnam fragging motive.)

The burning of his diary points to 1, 3 or 4, but lots of speculations are plausible in the absence of full information. At some point, investigators wondered enough about the possibility of 3 to actually ask whether anybody in his unit might have had a grudge against him. The executive privilege invocation might or might not mean something--by this time it's more of a tropism than a strategy coming from Bushies.

[Onceuponalife]

40. I think scenario 2 is most likely

Remamber Occam's Razor. The most simplest solution is the most likely. I sincerely hope it is not some worse option...

[eridani]

49. We need a timeline on the Silver Star approval

If it was after Tillman was killed, #2 becomes more likely. If before, that would support the more sinister possibilities.

[WinkyDink]

63. Occam's Razor would say that 3 bullets to the head at close range = murder.

It would NOT say this lying government is now telling the truth, after lying and stone-walling and finally needing to be hauled before a Senate Committee.

[GreenTea]

45. "Why did they murder Tillman? That's pretty easy to answer"

"Apparently just because Tillman was a patriot didn't mean that he was a neo-Nazi like the Bushies believed.
He was actually way more liberal than you are. Hard to believe, isn't it, that one of us lefties would strap on
a gun and go fight for America. Only patriots like Cheney and Bush would do something like that.

From his friends and family we're hearing that he regularly spoke out against Bush, encouraged other soldiers
to vote for Kerry in 2004, said that the Iraq war was illegal and the the Bush admin was an illegal presidency.
He was very intellectual, and a very good writer, and articulate as hell. He was a natual leader. He also had
an appointment to visit with Noam Chomsky when he returned home. The big problem for the neo-cons is
that he was due to come home soon.

Now consider that the Bushies sent him to war touting him as an American patriot and a model for all citizens.
What would he have written, said, done when he got home and Bush's supporters are equal in number with
the "Free Charlie Manson" crowd. Red Staters loved Tillman like he was their own son, because he had
earned their respect, and Pat Tillman was about to come home with the ability to speak for himself."
Jim H

A letter to BartCop - http://www.bartcop.com/

[man4allcats]

46. I think he was murdered.

He took three M-16 rounds to the forehead in a close pattern. If it had been an accidental discharge from someone's weapon, it's hard for me to imagine that such a pattern would have resulted. I'm not a firearms expert, but I played one on TV. More specifically, I spent a day or two on the firing range in Air Force basic training during Vietnam firing an M-16. It will fire on full automatic or semi-automatic. We were not allowed to fire the weapon on full auto. The drill instructors were nervous enough just putting loaded weapons in our hands. My point though is that an accidental full auto burst from such a weapon would, I believe, have likely resulted in more than three rounds fired - I would guess more like eight or ten before you could even react and get your finger off the trigger.

Another factor is the close pattern. How does an accidental burst from thirty feet result in a tight pattern in the forehead? Maybe it could happen, but thirty feet is a fair distance for a head shot - much more likely to hit the torso simply because it is larger and therefore statistically more likely to be in the way of bullets from an accidental discharge. In the case of Tillman though, there are three rounds in a very close pattern in his forehead. To me, that doesn't sound like an accidental full auto burst. It sounds like somebody who was a pretty good shot took careful aim and fired three quick but measured semi-auto rounds to get the job done. My best guess: Tillman was executed.

[The Doctor.]

51. Even though anything can happen in combat,

this incident stinks.

There's a murderer who has not been named. No one has even taken responsibility for pulling the trigger.

The answer is therefore murder. If it were an accident, the one who's gun was involved would be known to the public by now. As it is, a number of people know who killed him... they just ain't sayin'.

[Phrogman]

52. Who does Kevin Tillman think killed his Brother?

I think Keven knows. He was there right?

[MissMarple]

53. Given what we have been told....yes. n/t

[cgrindley]

54. Occam's Razor sez Military Incompetence

it's always the most elegant solution to any question involving the military. It's a tried and true answer, and it does not require establishing any new entities or conspiracy theories. IE a whole bunch of people fucked up and it got out of control ending only with a dead ex-footballer and a demoted general.

[WinkyDink]

65. The MI consists of the cover-up; the murder was quite successful.

[tom_paine]

55. 95% likelihood. The evidence is overwhelming and only lacks and eyewitness

If this were a murder case against and, that individual would likely be going to jail based solely upon the cirucmstantial and forensic evidence even had their been no witness.

95% likelihood.

[Vidar]

56. Yup.

[Berry Cool]

57. Everything points to it. yes. Everything. n/t

[Beerboy]

58. I do know the U.S. Army original dispatch

to the Pentagon is discredited bullshit.
The U.S. government isn't known for it's forthrightness and admission of any possible mistakes. The only mistakes owned-up to are gun camera footage of WW 2 German Luftwaffe fighters tearing into American bomber formations over Hitler's Germany.
What a grim slog, but when it was over, the Nazis cowered under smoking rubble, then surrendered the remaining scraps.
Most Germans don't want to talk about the economic miracle in W. Germany of 1949-50, lest AmeriKa gain a feeble credit. A lot of Germans also continue to refuse to realize that the United States armed forces liberated the German populace from Nazism as much as any Frenchman, Italian, North African, or Norwegian.
It's not something the sophisticated world citizens of Europe are likely to apprehend, as they are currently soul-searching as to how best not to offend various prophets of doom that openly threaten them.
As long as the Islamic fundies don't get France's and Britain's nuclear submarines, I'm nervously cool...

[wicket]

59. Yes, believed it from the beginning

n/t

[Perky]

60. I think he was murder by fellow soldiers....butnot onorders from higher ups

If the CIA wanted to "off" Tillman on orders frm up the chain, they would not have shot him at close range.....tehy would not have used an M-16 and they would not have shot him three times in the Forehead. One shot from a coule of hundred yards away with qa russian rifle by a sniper wirth a scope.



I think at many level Bushco tried to spin his death favorable........and the Armnty hust went along with it very clumsily.....

[zbdent]

61. When you consider the hoopla made after he died as "A brave patriot who

gave up a million-dollar career in football to fight for his country", you would hate to (before he died) have him, the "high-profile soldier" using his national platform to speak out against the war ...

[sutz12]

64. It sure is starting to look that way...

Why else all the obfuscation and cover up?

:shrug:

Murder is certainly not out of the question for this bunch.

[Tsiyu]

66. Yes

No one, nothing is sacred when $$$ are your Gawd.

[Bushwick Bill]

67. No.

Read my quotes from Stan Goff here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1486350&mesg_id=1489124
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1480906&mesg_id=1481023

Then again, Stan admits he signed a confidentiality agreement...
:shrug:

[Mandate My Ass]

68. He was totally assassinated

They were not going to let their pet "war hero" come back and diss the chimp and campaign for Kerry. He had to go.

[dailykoff]

69. Absolutely.

That's the Dumbya Way in a nutshell. :thumbsup: