"Outsource--India--1-2 years" mentioned at department meeting

[mnhtnbb]

this a.m. where my son works in tech support for an international messaging/security software company.

Oh, man. Just when it felt like his life was coming together.
He was laid off 2+ years ago from a computer store where he did bench work.
Told one night at 7 pm as he was going out the door, "don't come back tomorrow".
So he signed on with a dealer to do car sales. After 5 months of that and
the showroom traffic drying up when incentives were pulled, he decided to
go back to computers. Took him almost 3 months to find this job, where he
has an excellent salary, health care, and 401K benefits. He'll have 2 years
there this December. He didn't want to go to college and he's resisted
taking classes to get various certifications. Even that's no guarantee
from what I hear and read with tech and outsourcing.

Last month he signed documents to buy his first home, a new townhouse being
built < 10 minute drive from his work, ready late January/early February.

At least he's in the middle of Research Triangle, home to lots and lots
of tech companies.

When is this going to end? When is anyone going to be able to take a job
and expect it to last more than a couple of years?

When you look at how almost nothing has been done to rebuild New Orleans,
this bridge collapse is probably the first of many structural disasters
to come, no end in sight for getting out of Iraq, inability of communities
to respond to major disaster due to National Guard deployments, the housing
market going down the toilet--and on and on--it feels like this country is headed for some really bad times.

Anybody else out there feeling this way?

[AndyA]

1. If anything good can be said of the bridge collapse in Minneapolis,

it's that the media is reporting that there are other bridges with the same ratings across the country. Even the most addicted Kool-Aid drinker can figure out that this endangers THEM, THEIR FRIENDS, and THEIR FAMILY.

Bush and the GOP can try to spin it any way they like, but the next connection is usually, "Gee, if we weren't spending all that money over in Iraq, maybe we'd have enough to fix some of these things over here..." A huge jump, perhaps, for a Republican, but this is personal. It hits home.

I think this may make a difference.

Best of luck to your son, maybe if he starts looking for another job now, he'll be able to switch before his current employer moves to outsourcing. I know how he feels, I got hit with my first few jobs in a similar manner. I'll send good thoughts his way for continued success.

[mnhtnbb]

2. Thanks for the good thoughts.

[HughBeaumont]

3. It's never going to end.

The rich will stop at absolutely NOTHING, including killing off the long-term needs and good of their companies and this country, to get as much as they can for themselves and their equally rich friends (which, by the way, for you "Economics 101" people, means their company's shareholders) NOW.

People just don't CARE anymore. Since Reagan and his corporation-enabling policies became the gospel among Big Business, workers have no place in a company plan any longer. Labor has gone from being the most important part of the corporation to merely a commodity to be sold to the lowest bidder.

It's a big country club and we're not invited.

[mnhtnbb]

4. In the meantime, what do parents tell their kids? We're seriously

thinking of retiring to Panama (where we're building a house). What future
does a 21 yo kid have here? What about our 17 yo?

There will be jobs in health care--hands on--and service jobs. But you're right.
Companies don't care about their employees anymore.

This has to stop.

[HughBeaumont]

7. Service jobs don't pay as much, and they know this.

There are a FEW solutions to the offshoring problem, many of which require some kind of foresight on the part of politicians and business leaders.

Ideally, the first thing that should happen would be for US CEO's to . . . and I'm just spitballing here, stop being so damned GREEDY, but since that's never going to happen -

* Stop giving tax incentives to corporations to move jobs/companies abroad. Byron Dorgan had a bill on this very issue (S 1284).

* Make it illegal for venture capitalists to be allowed to tell start-ups who they're required to hire.

* Push forward legislation that technologies developed by taxpayer-funded research (as virtually everything is) can be licensed only to American companies using local labor for, say, 10 years.

* Organize. Why there are so few labor unions for white collar workers is beyond me completely. I know there's WashTech or AEA, but there needs to be more.

* Keep or lower the caps on H1-b/L1 visas.

* Bring manufacturing back to the US in lower-cost areas. A weak nation is one that has no solid manufacturing base.

* Decide that companies with a large percentage of their workforce located overseas no longer qualify for lucrative "American-only" federal contracts.

* You start more pro-worker legislation and curb offshoring sharply, it will encourage more collegiate entries into the science and math fields. Common Sense 101: You can't expect kids to take up a career field when you're not giving them a single incentive (i.e. offshoring tech jobs, R&D, etc) to do so. No ROI, no math/science enrollment. It's that simple. Kids often ain't as stupid as you politicians are.

* Stop electing pro-corporate, anti-small-business, anti-employee and anti-union dickheads like the ones currently polluting the Blight House and Congress.

The Bush administration, however, isn't doing a damned thing to stop this practice. To add insult to injury, it is pushing to expand trade treaties under terms that will make it even easier for CEOs to get even richer by shipping more jobs overseas.

I also don't buy the canard of "retraining" since it doesn't often work in the real world. Increased globalization has reduced the lag time between the initial development of new technologies and the offshoring of most related jobs. It took more than 50 years between the invention of the automobile and the outsourcing of car production to low-wage countries. But even if American labs produce breakthroughs in new fields such as nano- and biotech, the vast majority of work -- both technical and production -- is already being sent abroad quickly. No amount of training will help us when those jobs leave the country.

If politicians know that retraining can't work, why do they continue to promote it? Easy: It gets the public off their backs. Instead of blaming the government, or the corporations that have eliminated so many jobs, the logic of "retraining" is to blame the victim. If you're out of work, don't complain, because IT'S YOUR FAULT. Just buck up and take responsibility for getting the skills you need. Ownership society truly does mean "You're on your own". If economists, industry pundits and financial analysts cannot point to a single industry that's creating a great deal of jobs and is sustainable for the time being, how is the average American worker expected to know?

I mean, what's left? Are we all going to have to become genome researchers or some other elaborate uber-career that takes over half a decade to train for?

[kineneb]

10. several ideas- none happy

this assumes we continue on the current trajectory...

1. Incur no debt: Only go to as much college for which one can pay outright. Don't use credit cards, pay cash or use debit cards. Don't buy a house in the next several years, until the RE market completes its fall. If you must use credit, make sure the payments are low enough that a pay cut of 50% will still leave you with enough money to live on. And bankruptcy is still possible if you are poor enough.

2. Learn useful survival skills: gardening, sewing, cooking, basic auto repair, etc. Don't assume a job will pay enough to cover anything except the basics.

3. Forget about the "American Dream". It is dead. There is no level playing field. Assume you will probably be poor for the rest of your life and get used to it. If you want to earn more money, work for untraceable cash/barter on the side.

4. If you have a job, assume it is temporary. The company doesn't care about you, so why should you care about it? Don't bother to give it your total effort; they will eventually find someone who can do it cheaper.

5. Do what you want, now. Don't assume there will be a "retirement" time when you will have time, money, and good health to do the fun stuff. Take those days off, eat out (as long as you pay cash), take a trip. Do it now, not later.

6. Learn to live with recycled things: clothing, computers, furniture, etc. "New" will be too expensive except for your occasional "treats".
---
Depressing...yes. And unfortunately, some of us are already living this kind of life. The future does not look so good; sorry all you young people out there.

[davidwparker]

6. Have you joined Rev. Billy's "Church of Stop Shopping"? People forget the

power they have in not spending.

[The2ndWheel]

5. When does it end?

In this socio-economic system? Never. As long as we have the energy to do it, everyone will always be obsolete within the next minute.

[Xithras]

8. You need to lean on him..

He didn't want to go to college and he's resisted taking classes to get various certifications. Even that's no guarantee from what I hear and read with tech and outsourcing.

You're right, it's no guarantee, but your son still has the Boom mentality and it's going to bite him hard. During the Dotcom boom there was a genuine shortage of tech workers, so many companies scrapped previously "sacred" HR rules regarding experience and degree requirements in order to fill their seats. It, unfortunately, created a mentality among many in the tech world that degrees and certifications should be optional, and that you should be hired based solely on your skills. This was kind of an anomaly in the tech world, where your level of esteem has traditionally been established by the number of degrees and certifications you hold.

The problem is that those opportunities evaporated with the tech crash. There is no longer a shortage of skilled labor for low-end technical positions in this country, so employers are again looking at degrees and experience. There are LOTS of skilled people out there, and your son needs to adjust to that reality. If an employer is deciding between two potentially good employees with roughly equal skills and experience, and one has a degree the other is lacking, it's a virtual certainty that the degree holder will get the job. Nowadays, any advertised tech job opening is almost guaranteed to have at least 50 applicants. Getting that position isn't simply a matter of proving that you're good enough to do the job, but that you're BETTER than everyone else. Applicants with degrees, or at least certifications, are almost universally seen as "better" employees.

But what do I know? I've only been programming computers since 1988, been working professionally in the field since 1995, and have owned my own small 8 person consulting firm for seven years. I'm also an adjunct CompSci prof at a local college.

If he has 1-2 years, he needs to buckle down and secure as many certifications as he can in that time. I'd also strongly recommend that he look into any local community colleges and see if he can secure a two year AS or AA degree in an IT related field before his job evaporates. It's not the same as a BS, but it's a lot better than what he has now. His current career plan is not sustainable over the long term...or even the short term. Whether or not he wants to, he needs to either hit the books or pick a different career path.

Just my professional opinion.

[bleedingheart]

9. I too recommend that he go to school..

in fact if his current company will pay for it...that is even better.

[mnhtnbb]

11. Getting credentials is exactly the advice we've been giving him

for years. I had the conversation with him not long ago about whether
his company would outsource to India (he denied they would because
this company always tells its clients they will connect to an English-speaking
person with an accent the client would recognize--in Australia they speak
to an Aussie, in England they speak to a Brit, in the U.S. they speak to
an American)

This kid has always resisted our advice(my husband is a shrink and I'm a retired hospital administrator). We insisted if he wasn't going to college he move out
and get a job. He did. He has managed to land on his feet, so far. But I'm more concerned now because I think the country is facing serious economic difficulties
and I totally agree (and told my son so recently) that when it comes to looking for a new job, the person with the credentials will get interviewed first.

Thanks for your opinion.