Disasters Like Minn. are a direct result of having Republicans in Government

[MrScorpio]

They are wholly incapable of GOVERNING. They all run AGAINST government. They have no concept of the fact that it's the role of government to govern properly. Especially, managing the infrastructure. Their philosophy dictates that the public sector should defer to the private sector, with as little as much oversight as possible, which we all know is a sure fire recipe for corruption, incompetence and malfeasance, as well as disasters such as the bridge collapse yesterday and the levees breaching in New Orleans. This affects all levels of infrastructure throughout the country, regardless of the party in charge of a particular region.

I've been to Europe, which has a completely different approach when it comes to infrastructure issues; only the best will do. After spending four years there, I came to realize. post haste, that the American infrastructure is a mile wide and an inch deep.

People die when we fail to construct a proper infrastructure.

[dsa]

1. Sorry to burst your bubble

But crumbling infrastructure has been a problem for decades. There's plenty of blame to spread around for both the reps and dems at every level of government.

[Deja Q]

3. THANK YOU for the refresher.

Seriously.

I pride myself in trying not to get so biased anymore, but I still have my moments.

Seriously, thank you for this reminder. Incompetence/accidents/human nature is inevitable. On both sides.

[Bluebear]

89. Oh, who on our side do you blame?

[B Calm]

107. Ha Ha, blaming the democrats for their screw up!! The public knows

the truth. Every time the cons gain power they screw up the system and don't do a damn thing to fix it! They sit on their asses and wait for the Democrats to take office to do what's needed to keep the country operating - then the REPUBLICANS that caused all the mess in the first place sit back on their fat pimply hemorrhoid asses and point their bony shit stained fingers at the totally innocent Democrats.

[TX-RAT]

134. Before i blamed anybody, I'd follow the money.

The state of Minnesota receives money from the feds just like everybody else. I've watched the state of TX receive the same moneys and seen how they piss it away on pet projects and unrelated programs, and I'm pretty sure we're not the only ones.

[slackmaster]

144. TX-RAT has hit the nail on the head

Throwing money in the general direction of problems is nowhere near a guarantee it will be spent appropriately.

[B Calm]

151. So how did they piss away the money?

[loudsue]

170. Hmm. I dunno. Ask Cunningham, Abramoff, Doolittle, Halliburton.

The money is pissed away on no-bid contracts that are plowed back into the republican party.

:kick:

[MrScorpio]

4. That's what I said

But I reiterate, that is you look behind the cause of underfunding for infrastructure you'll find the Republican's philosophy of insisting that it done on the cheap.

[dsa]

8. I live in an area controlled by dems

yet they are incapable of keeping the water supply system or the electrical grid functioning properly. Like I said, plenty of blame to go around.

And if Europe is so great, why did 15,000 people die in France during the 2003 summer heat wave because government officials were "on vacation?"

[MrScorpio]

12. If you're looking to start a fight with me...

You're barking up the wrong tree.

That's all I have to say about that

[dsa]

14. I'm not picking a fight

Just pointing out that the situation isn't as simple as you're making it.

[B Calm]

154. You're not pointing out anything! Mind explaining why

the dems are incapable of keeping the water supply system or the electrical grid functioning properly? Or what road blocks are in their way of doing their job?

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

15. ...

:evilgrin:

[Virginia Dare]

33. Your profile says you're from Destin, Florida?

That's a Democratic stronghold? Knock me over with a feather.

[dsa]

37. That's where I'm from

I'm going to school and working in California. Trust me, this city is the center of FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR left-wing thinking.

[Virginia Dare]

49. Okay, that makes sense..n/t

[Crazy Dave]

64. Welcome to DU dsa

Born in Ft. Walton Beach, currently living in Jacksonville :hi:

[dsa]

65. Thank you

I look forward to returning to Florida. California is...different.

[Crazy Dave]

67. I'll let you in on a not-so-secret....

Me and this guy used to flip hamburgers together at what was a Hardees in Cinco Bayou. The last time I was there it was a Whataburger. The Goofy Golf where me and my brother practically lived was stilled owned by the same family for over 40 years.

[HeeBGBz]

131. I guess if you're farrrrrrr right wing oriented

Did you get lost?

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NuttyFluffers]

135. which city would that be?

i live in SF Bay Area, and SF, Berkeley, etc. just seem sane. far left it isn't let alone FARRRRRRRRRRRR (damn spanish 'rr's) left-wing, which is out of the ballpark. perhaps which ever city this is is a culture shock for you. sometimes even tepid water seems freezing if you just came from boiling water....

[Greyhound]

164. You're probably right, Florida is one of the oldest bastions of reich-wing authoritarianism,

so it is shocking when one of their subjects encounters some modicum of freedom, even the little that exists in California.
:kick:

[NuttyFluffers]

177. from japan/europe to saudi, after seeing the extremes it does feel like that

i was surprised how sections of america were closer to saudi arabia in terms of thinking and social behavior. and then other sections of america seemed closer to modern western europe/japan. having a friend who now lives back in florida, from previously living over here at the bay area, his stories seem so... disappointing. but then he went from a relatively open and pleasant place in Tampa Bay to inland central florida. he explained that there's a more provincial atmosphere, where subtle bigotry against whatever is different is somehow acceptable. they particularly don't like fashion progressive people, it seems. piercings scare them and places like Spencers Gifts sell the tools of the devil. :shrug:

[Greyhound]

178. A solid argument can, and has, been made that there are 8 or 9 "Americas"

and the band from Florida to Texas, with some notable exceptions, is the most backward, IMO. I remember the first time I visited I was shocked by how authoritarian and intolerant it is, and that is from a "respectable looking" white man, years before "The Dreaded 9/11". I can only imagine how bad it has become since then.
:kick:

[freeplessinseattle]

168. sounds like it's farrrrrrrrrr from your style there. sorry n/t

[havocmom]

36. When the GOP holds the federal purse strings for most of the years

the local DEMs are SOL for much of their budgetary efforts. When the feds cut funds to many programs, state & local ends up paying more, which means they have to cut other costs. That means more shit happens.

In France, it is likely more people are without air conditioning. People live in some VERY old houses in many regions.

[progressoid]

40. Bad choice for an example

The 2003 heat wave was a unique occurance.

France does not commonly have very hot summers (seven days with temperatures of more than 40°C (104 F) were recorded in Auxerre,Yonne between July and August 2003), particularly in the northern areas. As a consequence, most people do not know how to react to very high temperatures (with respect to rehydration), and most homes and retirement homes are not equipped with air conditioning. Furthermore, while there are contingency plans for a variety of catastrophes and natural events, high heat had never been considered a major hazard and so such plans for heat waves did not exist at the time.

[Vincardog]

63. why did 15,000 people die in France during the 2003 summer heat wave?

Because they are not used to dealing with the heat.
They unlike us do not have AC included in most cars and homes.

Can you say climate change?

[Bluebear]

91. 'I live in an area controlled by dems' - - "DEMS" eh?

And France!!!!!11111

[Marr]

114. Huh?

So where do you have trouble with the water? In your far-left Californian temporary home, or in your Republican Florida home? Where are you in California? Berkeley?

[dsa]

119. The Bay Area

Our water is brown, tastes like rust, and smells like rotten eggs. The power goes out at least once a month. The past three times, it was because a bird flew into a transformer. You'd think they would have put up a scarecrow by now!

[NuttyFluffers]

137. are you close to the delta?

what you describe sounds like nothing that i've seen or heard in SF or Berkeley or Palo Alto (the big university centers). and knowing that EBMUD does a pretty decent job maintaining good water, you must be out of their control area. i know peninsula water is also pretty damn good, too. and i've traipsed around some pretty scary neighborhoods in the bay area, even drank from tap faucets in serious dive bars, like tenderloin and off telegraph.

are you around Martinez, by all the refineries? or north into the delta? that's the area that you start to see real weirdness in lack of maintained infrastructure. you get some weird water because of the refineries and fertilizer run off from the river. or are you getting water from a well? or maybe you live in a shitty house with a dick of a landlord?

[havocmom]

31. Nixon/Ford 8 years. Carter, 4 years. Reagan 8 Years. Bush I-4 years. Clinton- 8, bush II- 7

Of the past 39 years:
GOP at helm (with veto power): 27 years
DEM at helm(with veto power): 12 years

Somewhere in there, I seem to recall an attempt or two to address crumbling infrastructure. Also seem to recall the constant outcry to cut government spending and cut taxes with the GOP mantra of: YOU can spend your money better than the government can. It's YOUR money!

Well, when bridges fall and dikes fail, it is the whole population that pays the price in lives and more costly recovery. WAY past time for the people of the US tell the GOP to STFU and insist there are some things we need to do as a people and that means spending tax dollars for the general well being, under the direction of OUR government.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

57. I'd reduce those DEM years a little...

During Carter's final years in office, there was a growing neo-con chorus opposed to taxes for any purpose other than the military. It was the movement that swept Reagan into office in 1980, after all, and caused the Democrats to lost about 40 seats in Congress in the 1980 election. Democrats got religion on the subject. And after the 1994 Election, Clinton was dealing with a Republican majority possibly more opposed to tax cuts than Reagan ever was. So I would argue that the Democratic control of the purse has been very limited during the past generation.

Had Al Gore been allowed to assume his rightful office, given the budget surplus that we had back then (sigh), we probably would have seen infrastructure improvements during the past seven years.

[havocmom]

87. Yep. DEM presidents have faced a very powerful and hostile GOP

The GOP stopped at nothing to get their way.

[qdemn7]

118. Disagree...

It's the AMERICAN philosophy that it be done on the cheap ie: lowest bidder. Over here we build roads using asphalt that have to constantly be resurfaced. I've lived in Texas almost my whole life (50 years) and have seen this. And this has been that way even when the Democrats controlled state government. Roads that have to be rebuilt every decade, or LESS. Freeways that have to be widened every two decades. We are not interested in building roads that last 40-50 years, or longer. I've read about German road construction techniques. They dig down 20-30 feet to prepare the base of their roads. Over here we're lucky if it's 5 feet. If we treat our roads this way, why should our bridges be any different?

[NuttyFluffers]

150. widening freeways every 20 years is expected.

my dad worked as a new engineer in Eisenhower's interstate program (which was made mostly for defense reasons). he had to design freeways for california, which had THE HIGHEST engineering standards in america -- and the world (they were sending people from all over to study what we were doing at that time) -- and roads were designed with being completely replaced in 20 years. why? because the stress loads would deteriorate any road incredibly rapidly, and if there's ever a ground war on our soil we'll need up to date roads for our military. Rome's roads last because they didn't have gargantuan 2 ton+ behemoths routinely stomping all over it day in day out. even with routine maintenance -- WHICH HAS'T BEEN DONE IN MOST PLACES and includes regular repaving -- these roads were expected to be replaced. the stresses are just too much to do otherwise. second, cities change, states change, it would be foolhearty to build something so fixed that will only need to be replaced and torn down when cities grow and shift. interstate roads, unlike bridges, are huuuuuuge projects. think about that, these are projects bigger than bridges alone. we are talking unreal sums of money, time, labor, resources, and power.

those roads were designed with safety calculations, and then the fed gov't put an additional minimum 5-10% extra calculations of longevity and safety. AND THEN another 20% was added onto that. so freeways were being designed with around 30% extra materials, resistence, and safety in design. this was above and beyond what i have heard from ANY engineer that was from another country. (engineers do shop talk like everybody else, and i got to sit in on quite a bit of it as a kid. we'd get stories of how it was like to build roads from nations from europe, latin america, to asia. in the 1960s we had the best design, with standards that to this day are being studied.) furthermore resurfacing is an absolute requirement to be done, and should be done repeatedly. these designs were made, at the heighest levels of design of 1960s, with expected maintenance, which includes regular repaving. repaving isn't a flaw of design, it's a simple expectation of existence.

but what happened shortly after Eisenhower? that's right 1/2 way into a regular freeway life cycle we get Nixon. in little over 10 short years we get Nixon. and thus the downward spiral we go. and ever since then the fed money was used as blackmail to bring states in line. states don't have the money to maintain infrastructure to optimum standards on the scale the fed gov't built, they are too small. a mammoth federal project was suddenly expected to be maintained by regional monies. they are, right now, sitting on money that has been earmarked for maintenace. that's complete insanity. these roads you are seeing now should have been replaced by the mid 80s and completely replaced at a minimum by the 90s. guess what? didn't happen. now we have roads easily cruising towards 50 FUCKING YEARS! TWO and a HALF times more than their optimal replace date. it's an absolute miracle that they are holding up as they are now. and you know what, we all had a free ride not having to think about it for this long; so i guess they really did last those 50 years you wanted. they were design that well and the proof is what we commute on.

but now they're dying, of neglect and age. and we're supposed to believe 'oh, the dems are equally guilty too.' what, the president doesn't matter anymore? not having the congress for umpteen freakin years? being sold out by a 5th column within party ranks means even liberals just shoulder an equal measure of blame. even compared to a group whose philosophy was designed to rape and destroy the commons, buy it on the cheap, and enslave the rest of us? no. no, there is no equal sharing of blame here. even if Jerry Brown wanted horses and buggies and contemplate his navel for a brief moment in the 70s in no way renders this an equally shared problem. some group among us hates gov't and wants to destroy with half wanting to rapture into an apocalypse and the other half wanting to enslave you -- there is no "we" in this clusterfuck.

[Virginia Dare]

5. I do know that in MY state (Virginia)..

it is consistently the Democrats who are fighting for more money for infrastructure, and it is consistently the Republicans who obstruct it.

[Lilith Velkor]

108. I wonder how many $3000 speeding tickets they'll give out

...before people figure out they need to tax the rich?

:crazy:

[Greyhound]

162. exactly.

This was beginning to become a nation-wide problem in the 70's, and Carter gave several speeches about it, but the money was coming from the feds and my state (Colorado then) was putting it to use, then Raygun the Destroyer stole all the money and funneled it to his masters in the MIC.

Over the last 30 years the states have been forced to hold the infrastructure together with spit and prayers and it's all coming apart. We have a bunch of bridges here (Portland) that are way overdue for replacement and massive repairs, the roads in Los Angeles have been neglected for so long that the road-beds breaking up and are beyond repair, etc.

Throw in a few unscrupulous contractors using sub-standard materials (remember the skyway in KC?) to steal more money for themselves, and we're looking at major expenses nationwide, and guess what, the money's all gone and the credit card is maxed out.

[dflprincess]

6. It's 26 years since Reagan took office -

and that's when the real problems started. That's the point when the U.S. abandoned the idea of a common good and tipped completely from having any concept of "we" to be a society concerned only with "me".

[Virginia Dare]

18. Absolutely correct...

Reagan succeeded in making "taxes" a dirty word. Every Republican in the country runs on "cutting taxes". It's political poison for anybody to suggest raising taxes now, even for much needed, or even vital, services.

[kestrel91316]

38. "The common good" is just a commie pinko plot, dontcha know?

[peacetalksforall]

48. Republican leaders and the followers I've heard speak RESENT

taxes for anything. Anything. Maybe there is one exception - engraving the ten commandments on a government building. And don't forget the costs that will have to be covered if they overturn Roe-Wade - they will need lots of employees and prisons to prosecute and punish females and their doctors - after they decide what the punishment must be.

[HughBeaumont]

166. Reagan made hate fashionable -

He hated women, homosexuals, the elderly, the poor, the middle class, the working classes, blue collar workers (even though many were on his side for whatever reason), non-upper-managerial white collar workers, minorities, immigrants, Democrats, hippies, punks, intellectuals, atheists, Eisenhower conservatives, foreign nationals, communists, Europeans, Russians, labor, the mentally ill and handicapped . . . . About the only people who's needs he served were the MIC, the old money wealthy, the fundamentalpatients and the major shareholder cronies.

What I want to see happen is that America NEVER elects another Reaganite. Anyone who thinks his presidency should be a Republican blueprint should immediately be discredited.

[MonkeyFunk]

11. Yep

this isn't much of a partisan issue. Dems are moderately better than Repubs, but the act is, taxpayers don't want to spend money on non-urgent things.

It's dumb, it's short-sighted, and it costs a helluva lot more in the long run, but it's hard to convince people to shell out money to prevent a problem 20 years down the line.

[dsa]

13. Good point

There's always ballot initiatives to raise taxes or sell bonds for infrastructure repairs, and they almost always fail.

[Virginia Dare]

24. Because the Reagan political model is to convince people that..

they can have their cake and eat it to. I'm always hearing from these Republican politicians that "the money's there", all we have to do is cut out all of this waste. Here in Virginia the state doesn't even have the money to cut the fucking grass along the highways this year...that is their idea of waste...:puke:

[dsa]

35. Here's a case in point

My town's dem-controlled council put an initiative on the ballot to expand educational services to the disadvantaged.

It passed.

Then they put another initiative to raise sales taxes to fund it.

It failed.

It's called stupidity.

It knows no party bounds.

[Virginia Dare]

51. It certainly sounds like a case of incompetence..

sometimes those ballot initiatives are so confusing people really have no idea what they're voting for.

Hey, at least they tried to get some services for the disadvantaged though. That would be considered waste here in Virginia. Although I live in a fairly "liberal" part of the state.

[dsa]

56. They're doing the program anyway

They just spend money that would have been spent on something else, probably bridge repair!

The problem is the program has turned into a huge mess anyway. One of the teachers turned out to be a pedophile and another was caught selling drugs to teenage students. Classic...

[Luminous Animal]

90. What city is this? (n/t)

[NuttyFluffers]

152. i'm quite curious too. caught none of that in SF bay local news...

i know there's quite a few other bay area DUers, so i call on them. have i been out of the loop? where's this drug dealing + pedophile teacher program scandal?

[freeplessinseattle]

169. "classic" indeed. eom

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. They get money from the federal government for that

Why did they need to sponsor a local program? That makes no sense.

[NuttyFluffers]

153. apparently there's a very special town out there... just nearby me

and with all the law, gov't, non-profit, etc. experience around here you'd think that someone, somewhere in this city would know this...

[loudsue]

171. A HUGE part of the problem is....we (middle class) are paying SO much in taxes

to the Federal & (in most cases) State governments every April 15th, that there's not much left for the local bond issues.

The FEDERAL government gets HUGE amounts of tax dollars every year that they spend to refinance the republican party. It's been that way forever. If the money that was sent to the federal coffers every year was spent to finance the cost of keeping the nation going, instead of bribing foreign countries to be "a coalition of the willing", and if we werent' spending TRILLIONS every year on the military and no-bid contracts in Iraq, and corporate welfare, there would be PLENTY left for education, infrastructure, social security, universal health care, etc.

We somehow have to figure out how to keep POLITICIANS from running the government into the ground.

:kick:

[MrScorpio]

21. Let me elaborate why some Democrats are prone to inaction

This is precisely due the fact that the Republican's anti-government rhetoric has polluted the electorate so severely that it affects all involved.

Politically vulnerable Democrats could find themselves out of office, unless they don't appear to increase the "burden" of government on the electorate as defined by Republican philosophy.

This lowers the levels of action. Sort of like a lowering tide lowering all ships.


As a result, we all suffer.

[Virginia Dare]

26. Dead on correct MrScorpio..

excellent point :thumbsup:

[Joe Fields]

59. That is partly true. I also think that taxpayers are tired of seeing their

tax dollars squandered and misdirected from their intended purpose. It creates suspicion and resentment, and causes them to be less likely to vote more taxes or bonds for much needed public projects.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. You are right, decades, truly starting in earnest with

Ronald Reagan and the Republican Revolution

[mudesi]

42. Bingo!

I was just about to say that.

Maybe the above poster forgot that Republicans have been in power for over 20 years, with a few exceptions here and there.

[dsa]

54. The 70's was a decade of major infrastructure catastrophes

It's easy to blame Reagan, but the problems predate him. Here's just a few infrastructure-related engineering disasters I can remember from the 70's.

1972: Buffalo Creek dam collapse in West Virginia killed 250 people
1973: National Archives fire in St. Louis destroyed over 16 million records
1976: Teton Dam collapse in Idaho killed 11 people
1977: New York City blackout
1977: Kelly Barnes Dam collapse in Georgia killed 39 people
1979: Three Mile Island meltdown

Pick a decade. You'll find at least as many problems then as you'll find today.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Tell me who was in charge in the white house for three of those

disasters?

Yep a republican....

You can try to dress this pig, but this is 1927 all over again... and these republicans will use this to try to sell privatization

You tell me you 'bout to drink the kool aid?

[dsa]

69. And a dem was in charge during the other 3--so what?

Or the Silver Bridge collapse in 1967? Or the Farmington Mine explosion in 1968?

Disasters and incompetence are part of human nature whether the humans involved are liberal or conservative.

The only kool aid I'm drinking is the mix that includes common sense and logic with an extra dose of vitamin smarts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. What part of philosphy are you purposely trying to miss?

reality is that this small government crap is pushed by repubs, and repubs have been mostly in charge, with veto power

I know you think this is common sense and logic, but with few exceptions (Ike, and to a small point Nixon), Republicans DO NOT believe in investing in the commons. This has gotten far worst since Reagan.

If you think this is common sense, well I think history will prove you wrong, but whatever.

Personally I believe that this control of the white house by Republicans (and the ever so popular veto power) has a lot to do with this falling infrastructure.

If you want to believe otherwise, we are free to disagree.

But this is 1927 all over again... problem is... the current democratic party is not set to take advantage of it... but that is a whole different ball of wax

[bleedingheart]

52. but cutting off funds for public services is a Republican specialty

you see they don't see any need to fix or repair anything that they feel should be a "private matter"..

So while both sides share blame...Republicans since the Reagan Era have been for smaller government except when it comes to defense.

[TahitiNut]

60. I see it as a result of 'privateering' and transfer of public functions to for-profit enterprise.

I'm old enough to recall the furor over public employees doing construction and maintenance to the civil infrastructure ... where the 'business lobby' continually argued that (1) they could do it more efficiently and (2) they didn't like competing with government for a labor force.

I remember my parents' generation who grew up during the Great Depression were able to get jobs with the "employer of last resort" (FDR's New Deal and WPA) working on national parks and roads and other federal property. I remember when our public infrastructure was new ... including the Interstate Highway System ... and the irrigation projects undertaken by the Army Corps of Engineers. Does anyone remember the Tennessee Valley Authority?

Today, EVERY need is addressed with some contract with a profit-making business, from bridges to potholes to road resurfacing. Even though the need to maintain and repair the public infrastructure is nearly constant and ongoing, it's treated as a series of one-time "projects" ... which, coincidentally, was the ORIGINAL notion of what a "corporation" would address. Where we once viewed a 'corporation' as some entity that would exist solely for the time it took to accomplish a project, and government was on-going, we have now reversed the roles.

Even further, instead of a single level of contracting, we now have a 'drill-down' contractor-subcontractor-subcontractor-etc structure where there's a profit-making enterprise at each level. It's a bit like the reverse of putting a multi-stage rocket into orbit - with money as fuel - where the fuel must launch the fuel as well as the payload. But the 'orbit' is actually at the public infrastructure level and if it were done BY THE GOVERNMENT (in an on-going operation) instead of by privateers, all that 'profit' would be cost savings.

It's long been recognized that politicians would rather take credit for the new "bright and shiny toy" than the mundane maintenance and repair ... but it's more a matter of getting campaign funding from the businesses that feed off the taxpayer teat ... and NOT getting their support where the politician attempts to create (or safeguard) the actual government function itself.

We see a privateered Department of Energy - 95% contractors. We see an increasingly privateered Department of Defense where mercenaries are used to provide 'security' for private companies doing what G.I.s once did - such as KP and logistics and supplies. We're seeing an increasingly privateered prison system. The same in Transportation. (AmTrak anyone?)

The "business sector" has learned that they can THIVE (get fatter and fatter) as parasites ... taking over government operations and profiting. (Halliburton.) Don't like it? All they have to do is stop and deprive the public of essential public services. From the same interests that argue that public employees can't strike we get private enterprise that's plundering the public treasury - with the threat that they won't do the job unless the ransom/blackmail is high enough.

[NuttyFluffers]

158. i weep at the sight of such beautiful posts like these...

my father and his dedicated enginering friends would salute you with a drink if they could.

i couldn't tell you how sad and cynical they were laughing at the private sector designs and private surveys and assessments that were contracted out. basically someone scribbles nonsense, gets paid enormous amounts, its handed to the engineers to build, the engineers realize it is completely dysfunctional and end up having to do all the calculations again. paid money for nothing, people get pissed because their commute's too long but they don't want to pay taxes, and politics responds by defunding the public workers who have to clean up the mess. a vicious cycle.

[tabasco]

72. Typical republican response when they fuck up.

"It's somebody else's fault" or 'it's just a freak occurrence - shit happens."

NEWSFLASH: Despite your self-proclaimed "common sense", the FACT is: republicans are the ones who drastically cut public funding to give TAX CUTS TO THE RICH and launch unjustified wars of profiteering. Your spin doesn't change that FACT and neither does your anecdotal stories about your town council.

ONE TRILLION DOLLARS PLUS WASTED IN IRAQ AND BIN LADEN WALKS A FREE MAN.

Develop some actual common sense and imagine how that money could have been spent fixing the USA.

[dsa]

85. Do you really think things would be any different?

Name one politician who has run on a platform of improving infrastructure? Voters want cool sexy big ideas like spending money on technology or social programs. Infrastructure is BORING. That's why the politicians don't "waste" resources on it until they have to. They'd rather waste money on other things that will get them votes.

And please learn to make a point without using expletives. You'll be far more persuasive that way.

[tabasco]

96. I'll fucking expletive all I want.

You like to change the topic, don't you? NOT GONNA WORK. Republicans have fought public works projects for decades in their desire to provide tax cuts for the rich and give away corporate welfare. Saint Ronnie Reagan himself said government is not the solution to our problems and every republican since has fallen over themselves to follow his "drown the government in the bathtub" philosophy. YES, I do think things would be much different if we didn't have so many stupid FUCKING people in this country who believe the republican lies even as the republicans pick their pockets. There are consequences to not funding things. Just like the VA hospitals. I was writing letters to the newspaper FOUR YEARS AGO decrying the cuts to the VA. But it takes RATS RUNNING THROUGH WALTER REED to get peoples' attention. Now, it takes BRIDGES FALLING THE FUCK DOWN to get attention to funding for public works.

[dsa]

122. A dem will be in office in 2009

and nothing will change. Count on it.

[tabasco]

124. Maybe not - because the "conservatives" have put us into ruinous debt.

The borrow and spend republicans don't care. They will live comfortably in their gated communities as the rest of America becomes a third-world country. I laugh my ass off when I hear an idiot republican screech "tax and spend liberals." Last time I checked - it was considered a good thing to pay the bills. Republicans, the "party of fiscal responsibility" :rofl: simply borrow more and more from the Chinese and the rest of the world. More lies from the traitorous republicans. But there are still millions stupid enough to believe the bullshit.

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

[Quantess]

130. 'Republicans, the "party of fiscal responsibility" ' ???!?!?

Since WHEN?
:banghead:

If Liberals are tax-and-spend, Republicans are spend-and-spend.

[tabasco]

172. That's what they call themselves.

Republicans prefer to "borrow and spend."

Liberals believe in paying the bills.

[Binka]

97. I Don't Think Tabasco Needs You To Tell Him How to be More Persuasive

You know what Missy 20 something college student, many of us have been around the block a time or two and it is a bit offensive to have a relative "kid" tell us what to do or how to think about issues. The majority of DUers are twice your age and already have that degree you are just beginning to work toward. Just a bit of advice.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyhound]

165. True, but 20 something guarantees ignorance, combined with an arrogant

confidence that all who came before you were just too stupid to see things as clearly as you. Don't worry, it is a self-correcting problem.
:kick:

[HeeBGBz]

167. No shit, time wounds all heels

Or something to that effect.

[Binka]

175. Welcome To Ignore

Older "generally" means wiser, as with time and aging comes experience. You sound like a child and I don't have time for another kid so bye bye. :hi:

[WinkyDink]

157. Which party do you vote for? If you think there would be no difference, you aren't a Democrat.

[greblc]

105. Tony Snow was quick to point to

our local government as the body responsible for the collapse. Govenor Pawlenty was thrown under the bus.

[NuttyFluffers]

and only a moron can believe states are so rich and powerful. yet people do...

california -- yeah, the state so fucking rich it regularly sits in the top 5 strongest economies in the world -- can't fix all their bridges and roads alone. as big and powerful as it is, it's just not that strong. aw.... :cry: guess californians better pick themselves up by their bootstraps!

minnesotans? pshaw, they should have even an easier time!

[WinkyDink]

156. Really? Any links to that assertion? Which party has been against taxing to maintain our society?

[JohnShadows]

159. I think SUV's have more to do with it ...

.... it may be that the average weight and velocity of cars traveling the bridge has increased. that would increase the wear an the mechanical vibrations that make this type of thing happen.

[Deja Q]

2. How many political candidates also say they want to "run government like a business"?

Oh dear... looks like business couldn't handle it either, if the politicians are running government just like a business.

Or maybe we're to die? At least, for most of them, it was quick.



(on edit: Changed subject line)

[HuskerDU]

7. I dunno but I think you're on to something MrS.

They hate gov't and they try to 'prove' that gov't is bad in general. But the problem isn't with having a gov't- the problem is who is governing and what their priorities are! As long as the people are thinking 'Gov't bad,' then they are doing their job!

I don't trust the gov't as much as I used to, nobody does! Guess that is what they want!

[The Magistrate]

9. Indeed, Sir

"Republicans run on the idea government does not work, and when elected, work to prove it."

[HuskerDU]

10. Thank you Magistrate!

That is what my awkward words were trying to say.

[voice of reason]

17. All politicians suck

some just suck more than others - you know which ones.

[The Magistrate]

29. Republicans, Though, Sir, Leave Toothmarks

These little differences really are the difference between a pleasant experience and one decidedly otherwise....

[Hubert Flottz]

39. LOL

That's a DUzy if I ever saw one!

Ratty little tooth marks for sure.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

45. Great post....wish I could nominate that line for this week's DUzy award!

:rofl:

[havocmom]

55. Anybody who can PM others here can send a link to JeffR

All it takes to be able to PM is a small donation to DU. Even I manage to afford a donation or two a year. ;)

[kestrel91316]

41. Truer words were never said.

[fasttense]

16. Don't let the "all politicians are crooked and incompetent" crowd fool you.

Republicans politicians claim that government is useless and then, when elected to govern, they prove it. The republican party is as corrupt as Cheney's heart and until they are forced out of office, you will continue to see catastrophes like the MN bridge and Katrina.

Notice how quickly the bushes pointed out the MN bridge was the state's fault. I guess the buck stops wherever the bush points the finger.

[Virginia Dare]

27. It's New Orleans all over again...n/t

[greblc]

106. Indeed! on a smaller scale.

[AspenRose]

129. Yep

All those folks who turned a blind eye to Katrina because it didn't affect them directly (e.g. "they are so poor and so black") will probably wake up now when they realize it could, indeed, happen to them.

[Quantess]

93. Correct me if I'm wrong,

but, aren't bridges usually taken care of by the Federal government?

[onenote]

94. Okay. You're corrected. They are generally a state responsibility

The feds set standards but states are responsible for keeping them up to those standards.

And states, both blue and red, have been doing a piss poor job of this for some time. If you don't believe me, check out this state-by-state report card. You'll see that the worst offenders are not exclusively blue or red (and the best performers aren't either).

http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/states.cfm

[Quantess]

133. Thanks. (no text)

[TX-RAT]

163. No, thats a states responsibility.

[bridgit]

19. So-called 'conservative' governance has failed on every level: local, national, globally...

[onenote]

95. Does Vermont have a "conservative" governance?

Because VT has a pretty poor record on infrastructure maintenance. And Massachusetts is even worse. THe point isn't to bash those states but rather to show that it isn't a red/blue issue and even blaming "conservative" governance doesn't paint a complete picture. Its a complex issue that turns on setting priorities. Some states that have better infrastructure performance also have fewer needs in other areas, or simply have less infrastructure or less intensive use of the infrastructure. Northeast states have a lot of demands on their budgets because of their population density etc. And they also happen to have a lot of bridges, dams etc.

[bridgit]

103. i'm sorry, onenote, but my post is as flat as they come...

conservative governance has failed...there's no dispute about that here at DU, but i appreciate your perspective being keyed upon the original 13, i live in California where we utilize our infrastructure on a routine basis in the support of the 5th largest economy in the world, or so it is said; i am able to attest, however, that Californians do a good deal of driving over considerable expanses in a large state & throughout these western states for that matter, that have been in many cases surveyed by way of Winchester rifle shot, so make no mistake...

i do agree with you, and while particularly beautiful in the fall, we aren't talking The Bridges Of Madison County out here, nor as it turns out in The Twin Cities where *that bridge* is now under some intense post-dated review to say the least

conservative governance has failed

[Turbineguy]

20. A talking head on CNBC

suggested it be privatized. Standard republican answer.

[bridgit]

23. there's the other shoe, the 'invisible hand'...

:thumbsdown:

[MrScorpio]

25. Expect more problems if that happens

Privatization of public needs should be a crime

[KitchenWitch]

22. I am sure part of the rationale for not fixing the structure of that bridge was

not only the money (the money is the big one though) but how much of an inconvenience it would be to the people that use that bridge on a daily basis. If I were to venture a guess, that particular bridge is on the part of 35W (not 35 west - 35W) which has the highest daily traffic volume in the state.

Now the citizens are going to be MAJORLY screwn by not having a bridge at all - likely for 3 years (since they really cannot do year round road construction).

Fucking Brilliant.

[The2ndWheel]

28. Didn't have to build the bridge in the first place

Then again all that money has to be used for something.

[kestrel91316]

43. Yeah. The freeway can just end at the river both directions.

I don't see any problem with that.

[The2ndWheel]

71. The freeway ends at the oceans

Then again, you don't really have to build the freeway either.

[Crandor]

98. Everything's pointless, so we should all just sit back and wait for ourselves to die, right? nt

[The2ndWheel]

139. People can do whatever the hell they want

I just said that we didn't have to build the bridge. If we do, then we have to constantly maintain it. But as our society becomes more complex, we have other things that we have to worry about as well. Since we're not perfect, accidents will happen.

[kestrel91316]

99. Last I heard, the I-35 freeway had already been built.

Run along back to your cave in Outer Mongolia now.......

[Kajsa]

116. Of course not,

All those perishable food items will be transported
by horse and buggy.

[The2ndWheel]

140. That's why Monsanto will own our food eventually

[KitchenWitch]

75. Are you kidding me?

Please tell me you are kidding.

:grr:

[The2ndWheel]

100. About what?

There's no reason the bridge had to be there. Other than to keep everyone addicted to oil, since the people paid for the bridge, and the people want some return on their investment.

[Crandor]

101. To get people across the river. Duh.

Now, I know if I leave it at that you'd just ask "Why get people across the river?", and so on. So let's just get right to the bottom of this. Is there anything you don't consider to be pointless?

[KitchenWitch]

104. Our paragon of oil free living, instead of showing us the way

is acting all superior.

With the CURRENT infrastructure and its obvious limitations, how in the world are people supposed to transport themselves, and ship their products?

Last I checked, the Pony Express is no longer operational.

[The2ndWheel]

145. Thank you, now I'm blushing

But I'm not Jesus. I know, I know, I seem to be.

I know the bridge had to be built. I know the freeway had to be built. I know they will not only be rebuilt, but built bigger. Since every action has consequences, we have to live with them. Sometimes a bridge will fall apart. Some people are going to die as a result of car accidents. Our collective addiction to oil(I'm not innocent) will have consequences.

[The2ndWheel]

141. Plenty

A world owned by Monsanto, Exxon, and any other centralized power is pointless though.

[KitchenWitch]

102. So, tell me, are you completely oil free?

Do you ride a bicycle, walk, or ride horses everywhere you go? Do you heat your home with something other than natural gas? How is it that you are on a computer (some of whose components are made of plastic - a product of oil).

I think your high horse is just about to throw you off.

[The2ndWheel]

136. Did I ever say I wasn't addicted to oil?

No I did not.

[xmas74]

113. I'm betting you've never been to the Twin Cities.

Hell, I'm kinda thinking you've never left PA. So, just wondering: do you enjoy using your computer? Do you enjoy having food to eat, someone to connect internet access to your home, electricity, heat? Do you enjoy spending the occasional night out?

Get over yourself. In order to live in our society you will be using some form of oil. I wouldn't be surprised if the trucks that delivered any number of things in your home might have used that bridge at one time or another, meaning this does affect you.

[The2ndWheel]

138. Yes, I'm part of the problem

I didn't mean to exclude myself. I'm guessing all my clothes were made by a 7 year old girl in SE Asia. To even live in this society, as you said, requires that I help. I'm sure that someone will get cancer after handling the chemicals that went into making this computer. For me to be able to exist requires that I help poison the land, water, and whatever "pests" are around.

[xmas74]

142. So why the stance from earlier?

People died and you were-well, you were disgusting. If you had said that comment in public I must admit that I'd punch you in the face and I'm a petite female. (I'd have to jump to punch most.)

This is a tragedy. We need to focus on what caused it and not put out our own agendas and biases. How do you know that some family member of one of the victims isn't a poster on here-or at least a lurker?

Think before you speak.

[The2ndWheel]

148. Gravity, erosion, entropy, imperfections of humanity, those caused the collapse

All I said was that we didn't absolutely have to build the bridge. I didn't say it wasn't a tragedy. I didn't say I didn't feel for the victims.

You're right though, maybe I shouldn't have said it that way, or at all, or something else.

Every action has a consequence, so...are you left or right handed?

[xmas74]

149. Both.

I use both equally.

And that bridge did help so many in that area. (I know, I've driven it. Quite a number would have no way to get to work. No work no money to pay bills and you know where this is going...)

The bridge was quite useful. It did have a use for the greater good and it did benefit so many not only locally but on a national level. If you want to discuss things that are not quite as useful how about all the supercenters built now in towns while the old building is left to crumble? Or how about racetracks? Or even golf courses?

[Left Is Write]

110. Clearly, you have never lived in the Twin Cities.

[Ganja Ninja]

32. It's the culmination of the Reagen revolution.

Cut taxes, cut spending, cut taxes, cut spending, cut taxes, cut spending, at some point somethings got to give. We saw it give yesterday in Minnesota.

[ananda]

34. I don't like all the CYAism going on.

Pawlenty is such an idiot.

On the fact that the bridge was rated as structurally unsound in 2005.. receiving 50 out of a possible 120 points.. Pawlenty actually said that nobody thought that meant it was dangerous.

Well.. exactly what does structurally unsound mean, then?

It sounds like it means there's danger to me!

[AngryOldDem]

44. This nation's infrastructure has been ignored for years

There's enough blame to go around. No need to broaden the brush.

[WilliamPitt]

46. WHACK

:P

[MrScorpio]

47. You're one funny fucker, Will

I'll buy you a beer next time we see each other

[KitchenWitch]

76. ...

:yourock:

[Hubert Flottz]

50. This topic seems like it draws a lot of fleas, flies and ticks today.

[]< SSSSSsssssss ~~~~~~~;< (ouch) ssssssssSSSSS >[]

Thank Gawd for Freep and Tick spray!

[MrScorpio]

53. Let the Freepers come

We're all ready

[IndianaJones]

58. Truth. nt.

[baldguy]

61. There have always been people who want to tear down all govt & everything associated with it.

There have always been people who want to build responsible govt that works & responds to the needs of the people.

When some blame the "system" for neglecting our infrastructure, they remove blame from those who are really responsible - those who actively forced the neglect to occur - and shift the blame to those who opposed the neglect.

[MrScorpio]

62. Excellent point nt

[dsa]

70. Those are called anarchists

[baldguy]

88. Anarchists want to eliminate govt to allow individuals the freedom to control their own lives.

Republicans want to eliminate govt to allow corporations the freedom to control individuals.

[Zorra]

66. Great post. You beat me to it. n/t

[ComerPerro]

73. its not that they have no concept or understanding. They just don't care

and they can always blame Democrats when things go bad

[Quantess]

74. I wonder....

What is the likelihood of this tragedy happening in, say, Germany?

[MrScorpio]

77. Compared to the US, not likely

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridge_disasters

Only 5 listed since WWII.

[Quantess]

83. Thanks. Okay, Holland is a better example of a place

where a bridge collapse would be less likely.

I'm sure Dutch people were talking about this news at their dinner tables tonight, tsk-tsking Americans for not taking care of the infrastructure. Sort of how we tsk-tsk the Chinese for having unsafe products. It's an international embarrassment, really.

[slackmaster]

147. Holland is a place where people routinely drive off the ends of piers into water

But the beer is pretty good.

[slackmaster]

146. June 1998

A train traveling from Munich to Hamburg derails in Hanover, Germany, leading to the deaths of 101 people. Sections of the train flip off the tracks, causing the overpass to collapse.

Article also mentions bridge collapses in China, Portugal, and (organ sting)... ...Canada.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/02/earlyshow/main3126226.shtml

[SeattleGirl]

78. Republicans HATE helping anyone but corporations and rich folk.

They think the great unwashed (that is, most of us) should make do with what we have, and that extends to things like infrastructure.

When I read your OP, I thought of what Ronald Reagan said many years ago (which basically sums up the thinking of the Republican party):

"The nine scariest words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

[Quantess]

80. 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'

That's what they said to Iraq.

(ba da bump);-)

[SeattleGirl]

81. And then they turned things over to private contractors.

:eyes:

[eridani]

79. Asking Republicans to govern well--

--is like asking vegetarians to make a decent beef stew.

[lemonjello]

82. Minnesota.......We Blue. Now what? NT

[Pyrzqxgl]

84. I think we have to start blaming Republicans for everything!

If you don't like the way something tastes it was probably made or cooked by a Republican.
Same with all your other senses. If it smells bad its Republican, if it looks bad its Republican,
if it feels bad its Republican, if it sounds bad its defiantly Republican. I think an unbelievable
amount of the time you will be right.

[WinkyDink]

161. Let's do the reverse: Name a Civil Right initially supported by Republicans (Post-1900).

Name a Labor Law initially supported by Republicans.

Name a Minimum Wage Increase initially supported by Republicans.

Name a tax break for the Upper 1% NOT initially supported by Republicans.

Name a public entity (schools, national parks, etc.) NOT targeted for privatization by Republicans.

Name a 21st-Century American disaster (9/11, Iraq "war", Katrina flood, Minneapolis bridge-collapse) NOT under a Republican's watch.

[lonestarnot]

86. They can't see past their own noses and pocketbooks.

[defendandprotect]

109. Absolutely! And Dems should be pointing that out --

[bdamomma]

111. they de-fund everything watch everything go to hell,and then

want to privatize, for their rich buddies, sickening, they are playing us for fools.

[gulliver]

112. Yep. And don't forget the quiet disasters they cause in ...

... education, the environment, national debt, etc.

I'll bet we see the typical down-up-down chart for infrastructure history soon: Way down for Reagan and Bush I, way up for Clinton, way-way-way down for Junior.

[Skittles]

115. MrScorpio, you are such a cutie pie

yes INDEED :thumbsup:

[Blue-Jay]

121. Scorp & Skittles sittin' in a tree...

[DeSwiss]

123. Famous quote by Gov. Pawlenty....

Pawlenty http://www.sctimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070723/OPINION/107230041/1006/NEWS01">twice vetoed a bi-partisan bill to increase the gas tax to pay for the state’s transportation infrastructure needs and took no steps to heed numerous warnings. Failure. "I'd stand with President Bush if his approval rating was 2 percent. http://politicalwire.com/archives/2005/10/20/pawlenty_sticks_with_bush.html">I won't abandon my leader just because times are tough." Gov. Tim Pawlenty, October 20, 2005“

Well then. That pretty much explains this bridge's collapse.

- K&R!!!

[LibDemAlways]

125. At Pawlenty's press briefing today he took pains to

stress that he was hiring a private firm to determine what went wrong with the bridge. They never miss an opportunity to fatten the coffers of their friends.

[RestoreGore]

126. Politicizing a tragedy is despicable...

At least that is what Democrats say when Bush does it, and they are right. So how is this any different? This didn't happen overnight. These structural deficiencies took years to come full circle and frankly I don't give a crap what political party was involved in the government, people ARE now dead, aand that is really what the focus should be along with fixing it so it never happens again. Should we now try to find out how many Republicans plunged to their deaths so we can now chastise them for voting for Pawlenty? Sometimes the political rancor not only in Washington DC but on some of these blogs on all sides really makes me sick.

[Skittles]

127. I don't think it is unreasonable

to point out that the predicitons of the results of tax cuts to the rich and an expensive, worthless war are coming true - it's not just this bridge - we see America crumbling before our eyes

[RestoreGore]

128. Then let's stop talking and pointing fingers for political points and DO something about it

[B Calm]

132. When we do the things to fix what republicans broke, repigs sit

are their fucking big asses and point their fingers at democrats. It's an endless game the cons play.

[Skittles]

174. thank you

it's not as if we haven't TRIED

[slackmaster]

143. Are you shooting for a new level of conceit, MrScorpio?

Infrastructure collapse is nothing new.



I've been to Europe, which has a completely different approach when it comes to infrastructure issues; only the best will do.

How quickly some of us forget.





(I know this is ancient history but love the image.)

[WinkyDink]

155. St. Ronald Reagan: "Government is the problem."

First Inaugural Address:
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem."

[Greyhound]

160. You are absolutely right, and it's worth noting the names of the usual republik apologists

that have flocked to this post. This was beginning to be a problem when Raygun took office and he is the one that slashed the federal budget and put the burden on the states and municipalities, that have struggled with unfunded mandates and trying to do the job, ever since. So yes, it is all their fault.

[Odin2005]

173. Never let people who hate the government be in control of the government.

Recipe for disaster, as the last 26 years show.