Whose judgment are you more willing to rely upon? (see below)

[Boojatta]

Of 100 voters, 80 passed a grade 9 examination in at least one subject area. The other 20 didn't pass a grade 9 examination in any subject area.

Of the 80 who passed, 44 vote for candidate A and 36 vote for candidate B.

Of the remaining 20, 5 vote for candidate A and 15 vote for candidate B.

[JVS]

1. 51 because it isn't democracy otherwise

[Boojatta]

4. Suppose people want, as their President...

someone who is under 35 years of age. Do people who are no longer alive know better than the voters and know that someone under 35 cannot be a good President?

[JVS]

5. Well then they're going to need to pass an amendment

[Boojatta]

9. They might also pass an amendment that says that the 80

who passed at least one of the tests are going to decide the outcome of the election.

[JVS]

14. I won't vote for it. If we don't have democracy, then I want a Czar or something cool rather than..

this 80 bullshit

[Boojatta]

19. 100 isn't everybody. What about someone who is one year

too young to vote, but who works full-time and who has a high-school diploma?

[JVS]

21. Once again, take it up with the constitution

[mondo joe]

10. I concur. I rely on democracy.

That was easy!

[Boojatta]

36. Democracy used to mean that a slave owner got

three fifths of a vote for every slave. For example, a slave owner who owned five slaves would get a total of four votes (three from the slaves plus one that everybody gets).

[mondo joe]

37. But we've improved on it since.

And that was still better than what came before it.

[Thothmes]

39. Votes

Dont think that section of the constitution refers to the individual voting. The 3/5 number was used in determining a States number of representatives to the House.

[damntexdem]

2. I won't pick either.

It would depend on the candidates. I won't make the ad hominem judgment suggested by the question.

[Boojatta]

7. Which candidate is likely to make better decisions?

Would you like voters to vote directly on all issues rather than for there to be an elected representative who makes decisions on their behalf?

[porphyrian]

3. All 100 - it's fallacious to believe grades equate to intelligence or common sense.

I've known third grade dropouts who could discuss theoretical physics and people working on their doctorates who were functionally retarded outside of their thesis.

[Boojatta]

8. If they could discuss theoretical physics, then what would stop

them from passing a grade 9 examination in science?

Do you believe that it is not possible to develop a test of intelligence or a test of common sense?

[NoodleBoy]

11. what if 9th grade is all a mass delusion?!?!?!?

[JVS]

17. Whoa. Heavy. I gotta put this bong away

:thumbsup:

[porphyrian]

12. As I said, they dropped out of school in third grade.

Did you not mean ninth grade examination? Maybe you were referring to some kind of testing of which I am unfamiliar.

I don't just believe, but know that there are a number of tests that attempt to measure intelligence, with varying degrees of accuracy. I don't understand why you would think otherwise. You read what I wrote, right?

[Boojatta]

15. If this thread were revised to refer to some other kind of test,

then might you trust the judgment of those who passed the test rather than the overall judgment of all 100?

[porphyrian]

26. Not based solely on passing a test, no.

My point was that passing a test or any other form of education does not equate to intelligence (in fact, I thought I said as much in my original post, but I could be wrong). Besides, geniuses can be wrong and stump-dumb people can be right on occasion, so it wouldn't be prudent to base my decision solely on what either group chose. However, as you asked whose judgment I would trust with no other factors involved than the test you mention, I chose the larger group in order to have a greater probability of good judgment from the whole, which I don't believe, as I've said, requires a specific education, at least not in the traditional sense.

[Boojatta]

16. Well, I'm not impressed by someone who can discuss grade 2

level theoretical physics.

[porphyrian]

30. Really? What if they're five years old?

You seem to hold the mistaken belief that standard education equates to intelligence.

[mondo joe]

18. And my grandmother, who never made it to 9th grade and couldn't find Iraq on a map

to save her life, was a smarter and more decent person (and voter) than the considerably better educated GW Bush.

[Boojatta]

23. Your grandmother's vote is exactly the same choice that many

other people can and will make. Maybe your grandmother is one of the 5 who vote for A from among the 20 who didn't pass.

We're not talking about excluding some unique individual contribution. We're talking about the overall effect on the outcome.

[porphyrian]

28. Right, my point exactly. - n/t

[NoodleBoy]

6. it's hard to tell, are you sure 100 people aren't just having a mass delusion?

[stillcool]

13. Did any of the candidates pass ...

a grade 9 examination? I would accept the judgment of the 51, as long as they weren't using computerized voting.

[mondo joe]

20. GW Bush would be in the "passed" group. So would Karl Rove. I can think of some very good

decent people who wouldn't have passed.

[Jed Dilligan]

22. Let's say the 20 who failed the test

were poor urban black people, migrant laborers, or homeless people and the 80 who passed were white landowners and businessmen.

The concept you seem to be propounding would play directly into the hands of the Repukes...

If you want a more educated electorate, fight for public education!

[Boojatta]

25. What does public education have to do with it?

If being a landowner makes one more likely to pass, then maybe federal lands should be divided up into small parcels of land and given to those who failed the test.

[Jed Dilligan]

29. Being a landowner generally makes one a fascist

And I'm not sure how I should begin to explain how public education might have something to do with the failure of 20% of a population to pass a 9th grade test.

[BlooInBloo]

24. Funny how the have's always want to restrict the have-not's right to vote.

[BlooInBloo]

27. This whole thing is a complete lie anyways....

... It pretends that the issue is *ability* to decide right from wrong. That's not the issue and everybody knows it. The issue is *willingness* to do what is right. And no amount of ability adds up to willingness.

[Boojatta]

31. You have a point there if you're talking about the candidates.

However, if you're talking about the general voting public, then some ability is required to see beyond the rhetoric and advertising. Willingness isn't enough.

[BlooInBloo]

33. As an aggregate, yes it is.

[last_texas_dem]

32. The full group

I don't think someone's level of education has all that much to do with their ability to make competent judgments on political issues.

[LWolf]

34. None of the above.

I'm not willing to rely on anyone's judgment but my own.

[TahitiNut]

35. This is an olde, olde, olde false paradigm ... long ago addressed.

The notion that "some" are more qualified to make decisions regarding governance "for the benefit of all" is exactly what led to monarchies and all manner of autocracies. What happens is that the decision-makers proclaim that they should get a 'fairer' share of the sweet fruits of their decisions - while the sour fruits get distributed to the least enfranchised.

The equity inherent in a democracy is the idea that ALL share equitably in the fruits of their collaborative self-governance ... whether the fruits are sweet OR sour. The key, of course, is that people think for themselves and seek out others for INFORMATION. Discussion and argument and disagreement and political dialecticism all exist within the body politic ... where, hopefully, but almost CERTAINLY eventually, the 'best' decisions get made.

Whenever we distribute the fruits of self-governance inequitably, either burdening a minority (our military?) or granting privilege to a minority (our wealthy?), we sacrifice our own self-governance and proceed down the road to autocracy as surely as history is a guide.


"All of the animals are equal but some are more equal than others."

[Boojatta]

38. If it's very old, then surely you have a variety of examples

of tests that have been used by various jurisdictions: IQ tests, citizenship tests, academic tests, etc.

[HughMoran]

40. It's sad, but we have to try to educate the idiot moron Republican imbeciles

It's the only way...

If we can't, then we must die as a nation. We can't have different rights for different people.

[Lilith Velkor]

41. Ralph Nader

:P