The answer is to TARGET the Blue Dogs AND the DLC

[Horse with no Name]

and put REAL progressives in their place.
That's the only answer if we want to save this country from sinking into fascism.
We CANNOT go along to get along.
It's too late.
Kick these bastards back to the Republican party where they belong and be done with it.

[Hubert Flottz]

1. I can see now why some people can't tell the difference between

some "democrats" and the republicans...there is no difference.

[Horse with no Name]

3. Depending on which one you look at it, you are correct

That is the ONLY thing I am envious of the republican party for...they will STAND together and fight.
That's why, even as the minority, they are STILL the majority.

[Double T]

12. That is also the reason they will win the 2008 elections...........

if we don't find a way to come together as a united political party.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

2. yet another post...

That sees all of politics in terms of anal rape. I am getting tired of this shit. Let me know when you get done shooting everyone who disagrees with you.

[Horse with no Name]

4. yeah whatever

anal rape? Oh please? Hyperbole much? Oh wait--yes you do.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

6. well, good luck with your plan

let me know when you get your first dlc / moderate scalp.

[tritsofme]

5. Yea that's the ticket, lets put Kucinich clones in place of Democrats like

Heath Shuler, and then grab your ankles and remember what its like to be in the minority.

[Horse with no Name]

7. Yeah that majority is working out so well for us, isn't it?

At least Kucinich votes like a Democrat instead of like a Republican.
The problem is that REPUBLICANS soiled their own party and now are trying to take over ours.
All a "moderate" is is a Republican who is afraid to be called a Republican.

[sanskritwarrior]

10. No Kucinich voted like the members of his district wanted him to

People like Shuler are from very conservative, yet democratic districts, putting someone like a Kucinich up in the primary would seriously backfire and probably make the district more conservative......

[regnaD kciN]

42. Hate to tell you this, but...

...whatever the D/R/I head count may be, we're de facto still in the minority. The FISA vote proves it.

:puke:

[sanskritwarrior]

8. Don't many of them come from Conservative districts??

putting a Progressive in the primary could seriously backfire if the Blue Dog wins the primary largely due to more conservative voters..........you would then have a House member beholden to the more conservative members of his or her district........Joe Lieberman in the Senate being example A in my opinion.......

Why not just leave them alone, they are Democrats and vote with the Left on many issues, they also choose to go their own way on issues that matter to their constituents.......There is nothing wrong with that, that is American government 101, just because you don't like the way they vote on an issue important to you is not a real good reason to go after them. You are then punishing them for representing their particular district, if you don't live in that district then you are just trying to punish them for "thinking different".......How is that different than the Republicans that squash dissent........

[Horse with no Name]

9. The problem is..it is not "an important issue"

It's EVERY FUCKING important issue. So tell me how THAT is different than a Republican?
On edit:
You do KNOW of course, that the majority of the Blue Dogs are voting as a Bloc amongst themselves?
Therefore basically acting as a Third Party and acting the spoiler?
Very very Republican-like...if it walks like a duck, talks, like a duck and quacks like a duck...

[sanskritwarrior]

15. So again it comes down to not voting the way

YOU want them to, maybe they are representing their districts correctly.....And that truly is the crux of the issue. You win some, you lose some, however you should never punish someone for voting the way they BELIEVE their district wants them to......To do otherwise is to be no different than the Republicans that march in lockstep.

[radfringe]

11. ......I draws them as I see thems

[Horse with no Name]

13. Always wonderful!

:thumbsup:

[Breeze54]

17. Perfect!!!

I wish I could recommend it! :)

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[radfringe]

38. it's the toon for tomorrow

look for it in the morning and then you can give it a k&r

[MatrixEscape]

14. The answer is to fess up ...

You are living in a manufactured delusion that you are psychologically compelled to deal with ane read to because you have no other choice if you want to live long and prosper within it.

You can choose to ignore what might trouble you or you can come to places like this and display your dismay in order to find some form of catharsis or mea cupla, but that is about the extent of what you are thinking you are accomplishing or will accomplish.

It is plain and simple. Most of you can see that what you say and do in your ordinary lives is totally monitored and controlled by an intrinsic, ingrained, and historical power that is far above and beyond your ability or capacity to steer, influence, or contain it. It, for the most part owns you, and you may or may not like that fact.

That influence and power has accomplished what it has for centuries now, (I implore you to look at the history behind that implication for verification). Today, you are seeing merely the end of a facade where you were inclined to imagine things that are not at all true about your input and power in respects to those who are in control of the intricate and powerful machine that stands in direct opposition to the kind of power you might have as a people had it not preceded your current ideas of what was possible for you.

Yes, they let your ideas get a bit out of hand because that helped to feul other, more profitable and empowering manipulations for them. But now, you are on the verge of seeing what happens when the ideas they allowed you to have and obtain stand in opposition to their ultimate plans and desires. They do have a long lineage of control combined with an arsenal of science and collaborating minds at their disposal versus your small and ineffectual discoveries of what is really going on, don't you know? Whatever you know and do has already been factored in and that my sound pessimistic, but it is only so by the sheer numbers that are living as pawns in a game they were never told the rules to.

Amd so. if the rules of the game we are playing were prevalent and common, then the shift of power would certainly ensue. Since that is not the case at all, no matter how empowered and informed some people feel, the infants of paradise will continue on their course as their families decided for them, long, long ago. Argue and mumble and grumble all you want. With no physical action to oppose them, they will triumph as you bitch your ways to total subservience. I tell you that as a fact even though you will certainly want to dismiss it as some sort of disgruntled paranoia. You only have to look at your life, not my words here, to find you own motherload of that as you sit and passively watch more reasons for your disenchantment become total, objective reality in the near future!

[CJCRANE]

16. There will come a tipping point

when too many people are angry. Just like the bridge in Minneapolis that suddenly collapsed or the day Ceaucescu was booed by his own supporters.

With every disaster Bushco lose a few more approval points. Ok so it is like putting America through death by a thousand cuts but there will come a time when he is so disliked that he will become a social pariah (he's on 52% STRONGLY disapprove as it is).

[MatrixEscape]

24. I think you, I , and the machine want to know now ...

where that tipping point is. They are currently developing software to try to figure that tipping point out as you may now. The Matrix always wants to calculate the variables that are within the boundaries of any certifiable chaos that might ensue. That may be why the tipping point is always just ahead or out of reach in our mostly uniformed estimations of what is to come.

The quesiton is, why, when it seem that more than enough people are angry and reacting, that nothing of major import has happened and people still wait for some sort of projected future brink or pinnacle. The answer is that the machine works that way. He who controls the past controls the future. Logically, that means that the present is controlled by those who define and present both the past and the future by way of the most obvious means of oonveying them in a dominant fashion.

If you buy into time as your modus operandi, then you are going to be able to delay your physical reactions based on that kind of stricture. You only have a now in which to live an act. You can either base that on the past with some form of fond nostalgia as emotion, (as those who are woefully bemoaning the current revocation of the Constitution do) or you can look to some future date when someone, something, some tipping point, will bring about the change you now see as essentially necessary for the benefit of life as we know it and progress towards survival for we as extant beings.

If you want your understanding to be someday, then so be it. You may never see that someday come because this is your life and this is now and this is where it has to happen to be real. Do something ... anything. But don't sit around waiting for it because history has shown us that waiting is the equivalent of giving in to the prevailing powers that be. You DO IT now or you may never get the chance to do anything about it again and so, you forever hold your piece.

What are you really waiting for? Somebody else has to break out of the Matrix first? I have! Can you? Does, "You go first!" have to mean, "You go face the Agents" first? I think not. That would mean that your frontline is dead before you get a report about what happened to them. Not a good strategy if you had a plan to win in the first place. Sorry! Try again.

[CJCRANE]

36. With or without me

the trend is against Bushco. It's also a war of ideas and I contribute my tiny part in that. But I've come from being one of the 10% to one of the 70%. The tide against them is inexorable.

[MatrixEscape]

44. A tide of ideas or concrete results?

Are we going to dabble in symbolic ideation or look at the more tangible results before us and call our ideas and conversions some sort of mythical victory?

So far, I see nothing that I can touch or grasp as the outcome of the baptisms of those who finally, (whew!) get it. I am not chastising the getting it, but I am certainly not going to call your sudden realization any salvo against the machine or a victory in the least bit.

Do something that involves a real sacrifice. Get off the gird, back out of the machine, starve the beast, but don't try to feed the hopes and dreams of others with the mere report of your sudden enlightenment alone! That is only arriving at the station. There is an entire journey before you if you want to do the serious trek. Or is pain and dues paying out of the question so that we can just live in words and ideas while the master molders of ideas and words have their way with us all?

[CJCRANE]

47. The Rovians use words

as a form of verbal kung fu.

So Cheney's a big guy but when it comes down to it - most of what the neocons do is through words. Talking points. Talking heads. Thinktanks. Pundits. Memes and slogans and catchphrases.

So fighting back with words does have its place.

It's important and it's what human beings do most of the time: Talk. Persuade. Cajole. Influence. Ask. Demand.

So DUers - keep talking, keep thinking, keep asking, keep demanding, keep protesting, keep doing what you're doing.

[CJCRANE]

18. ...and it isn't human nature

to buckle under to a group that is trying to destroy your ideas and way of life even if they don't immediately threaten your physical safety. Human nature is tied up with identity which includes values and ideas that we want to preserve. That's why cultures that acquiesce go under. It's the ones that resist that survive.

[MatrixEscape]

28. I like your idea and reliance ...

but I don't think you have looked carefully enough into the factors and conditions that have made many people buckle under the boot of a Fascist machine and learn to both identify with it and serve it faithfully.

It is repugnant to us to imagine that our minds and lives could be easily and quickly changed so much under certain conditions that we would not even recognize ourselves if we were to look back afterwards. And yet, it is clear that this pulling back our own imagined and acculturated facades can make us very vulnerable to fastidious and systymatic conditioning.

I am not saying that you are wrong in your supposition that resisting is survival. I am relating the fact that those who are born into a world where they are systematically indoctrinated are not immune to being rapidly transformed or reindoctrinated with the right techniques based exactly on that process itself. Now, if you don't see your own childhood as a form of indoctrination that is traded for the right to function and survive as an organism in a cultures, then I might sound a bi radical in what I am relating. There are ways to indoctrinate a child into a culture and those ways can be utilized to transform any individual, in the right set and setting, into a reborn person who then represents major aspects of that process to a greater or lessor degree.

We see that television and media in general has major impact on the culture, so why would the idea of molding personalities seem so absurd? That last thing we want to entertain is the mutability of our egos under the duress of circumstance. And yes, there are cases of those who transcend that process and retain an immutable sense of self, but they are rare, not common. If you want to get beyond that problem, you have to be willing to question the reality of a self, a mind, an existence. Nobody wants to do that, but some of us come upon it and grasp it the bes twe can.

[CJCRANE]

34. I am very aware of the neocons "creating reality".

And even those who aren't aware of their philosophy know that something is very wrong. Reality will bite back (even without the metaphysical machinations that you seem to enjoy).

[MatrixEscape]

39. Seem to enjoy?

Have you every looked carefully into the abstractions that are human thought itself? I mean really!

Philosophy is about knowledge and how we know what we know. That is totally about what you are relegating to metaphysical machinations. The trick is, they know this and maybe you don't?

Reality is a construct and a the word is a misnomer as you are using it. Welcome to the desert of the real my friend. Enjoyment is hardly the important factor here when results are our common interest and the ultimate outcome of our efforts.

[MonkeyFunk]

19. I'd rather fight republicans

but that doesn't seem to be a popular opinion around here.

[robcon]

20. I disagree completely with the OP.

The answer is not to target the blue dogs and DLC.

The answer is to target the Republicans.

[Breeze54]

22. The answer is to target all three groups.

Get as many of them out as possible and put 'real' democrats in!

[Breeze54]

21. Right on!!

Kick the rethugs blue dogs to the curb!

:kick: & Recommended

[sanskritwarrior]

23. Yes only when

we can purge our ranks of unbelievers and false prophets will we have true peace and security. Only when their filth is scrubbed from our purity will we achieve a better world.......... :eyes: Ein volk, ein reich..........what "the fuck" ever........ :eyes:

[madrchsod]

25. yup..i`m stuck in illinois

i`m stuck with obama and durbin and i noticed my house critter denny hastret did`t vote on the "bush is going to tap your cell phone"...what am i to do??

[Breeze54]

26. Now your getting the idea!! Good!

;)

[sanskritwarrior]

27. Yeah I'm getting an idea alright

An idea that I want nothing to do with anyone that wants to purge our party of people they disagree with........

[Breeze54]

29. Isn't that what voting is all about? A purge?

Personally, I think the cancer needs to be removed.

The treatments aren't working and it's killing us.

It's time for radical surgery. :P

[sanskritwarrior]

31. Yes voting is about change

but you are advocating change because you don't like the results.......What if the voters of those Blue dog districts like the way their representatives vote?

[Breeze54]

40. The voters in those districts were

snowed and need re-education.

All voters vote for or against something or someone.

Where have you been? :shrug:

"Blue Dog bad, Progressive Dem good!"

[sanskritwarrior]

46. re-education?

Yes comrade we will begin the re-education of the population so that their thoughts are more in synch with ours.......... :eyes:

[leftchick]

30. are you aware that The Democratic "front runner" is the FACE of the DLC?

:shrug:



I believe it is Waaaay too late for a purge. :(

[Breeze54]

43. I'm pretty sure the OP knows who is who.

There's more than just a presidential election coming up.

[dkofos]

32. These people voted away our rights, they shit on the Constitution,

they are in bed with *ush. Is that the kind of representation you deserve.

[onenote]

33. Still wondering who you think the voters in the Blue Dogs districts are going to prefer

Apparently you think that they will throw out a Heath Shuler and elect a Dennis Kucinich clone. In fact, if a Dennis Kucinich clone runs in the 11th District of North Carolina, what you will end up with is another repub like Charles Taylor. And overall you'll end up with Hastert as speaker, Lamar Smith as Judiciary Chairman, and so on...

Shuler's district is a good case in point: it covers 13 counties in rural southwestern North Carolina. In 2004, every single one of those counties gave more votes to Bush than to Kerry. By my rough estimation, Bush carried the district by more than 35,000 votes -- around a 10 percent margin. (Nationally, Bush scored 3 percent more votes than Kerry).

I'd like a more progressive Democratic caucus too, but I'm not willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater and end up with the repubs back in the majority.

[UnityDem]

37. Look at this list of Blue Dogs

Unfortunately, the only way that a lot of these Blue Dogs get elected or re-elected in very conservative/somewhat conservative areas is to buck the Dems on certain votes (usually defense related issues). Although it pains me greatly that they vote this way, it is much harder to argue their votes than it is those Dems who are in heavily blue safe districts. Look over the below FISA vote list and see which ones you have the biggest quarrel with.

Jason Altmire (4th Pennsylvania)
John Barrow (12th Georgia) Blue Dog
Melissa Bean (8th Illinois) Blue Dog
Dan Boren (2nd Oklahoma) Blue Dog
Leonard Boswell (3rd Iowa)
Allen Boyd (2nd Florida) Blue Dog
Christopher Carney (10th Pennsylvania) Blue Dog
Ben Chandler (6th Kentucky) Blue Dog
Rep. Jim Cooper (5th Tennessee) Blue Dog
Jim Costa (20th California) Blue Dog
Bud Cramer (5th Alabama) Blue Dog
Henry Cuellar (28th Texas)
Artur Davis (7th Alabama)
Lincoln Davis (4th Tennessee) Blue Dog
Joe Donnelly (2nd Indiana) Blue Dog
Chet Edwards (17th Texas)
Brad Ellsworth (8th Indiana) Blue Dog
Bob Etheridge (North Carolina)
Bart Gordon (6th Tennessee) Blue Dog
Stephanie Herseth Sandlin (South Dakota) Blue Dog
Brian Higgins (27th New York)
Baron Hill (9th Indiana) Blue Dog
Nick Lampson (23rd Texas) Blue Dog
Daniel Lipinski (3rd Illinois)
Jim Marshall (8th Georgia) Blue Dog
Jim Matheson (2nd Utah) Blue Dog
Mike McIntyre (7th North Carolina) Blue Dog
Charlie Melancon (3rd Louisiana) Blue Dog
Harry Mitchell (5th Arizona)
Colin Peterson (7th Minnesota) Blue Dog
Earl Pomeroy (North Dakota) Blue Dog
Ciro Rodriguez (23rd Texas) Blue Dog
Mike Ross (4th Arkansas) Blue Dog
John Salazar (3rd Colorado) Blue Dog
Heath Shuler (11th North Carolina) Blue Dog
Vic Snyder (2nd Arkansas)
Zachary Space (18th Ohio) Blue Dog
John Tanner (8th Tennessee) Blue Dog
Gene Taylor (4th Mississippi) Blue Dog
Timothy Walz (1st Minnesota)
Charles A. Wilson (6th Ohio) Blue Dog

[mitchtv]

50. sure wish I had a blue dog to complain about

instead of a Red Pig. Target Republics

[TZ]

35. I'm not sure that will really accomplish anything

I live in one of the bluest counties of one of the bluest states in the country and STILL one of our politicians (Barbara Mikulski) voted for FISA in the Senate. If anyone doubts they don't usually get more progressive than her.
Its a politician thing more than a progressive thing I think.

[MasonJar]

41. We need a larger majority, not a smaller minority. In some states

we are lucky to get a dem of any kind. In addition, these dems are in the Congress to represent their constituencies; if their state's population is not progressive, then they should listen to it and try to educate the people they represent, slowly moving them to a more reasonable position. Personally, being stuck with McConnell and Bunning, I'd dearly love a Nelson or a Landrieu (sp?). Will Pitt was right; we have let the right-wing spend years taking over. We cannot get it all back in one election. Patience and perseverance is what is called for.

[onenote]

45. No one ever answer the question of how you're going to elect progressives in districts

where the voters aren't progressive....

So much bluster, so little thought...

[Zorra]

49. So the answer is to elect "Democrats" that vote with republicans

on bills that allow warrantless wiretapping of US citizens?

That is not a "moderate" thing to do. It is an extremely radical Right Wing thing to do.

[onenote]

51. and another non-answer

Still waiting for someone to explain how running an unelectable Democratic candidate in Blue Dog districts,resulting in the election of a repub, and the restoration of a repub majority in Congress, will help matters.

I can play too. Do you prefer Hastert as Speaker, Lamar Smith as Judiciary Chairman?

[Zorra]

55. I'm advocating Democrats that don't vote with the republicans, not unelectable

Democrats.

[onenote]

57. in most of the blue dog districts, someone who voted with the Democrats all the time

would be unelectable. I wish it wasn't so, but in districts that gave signficant majorities to chimpy, its unrealistic to think that the member of congress is not going to vote with the repubs on certain issues.

Take the fifth district, Alabama. Blue Dog Democrat congressman. Chimpy got 60 percent of the vote in 2004.

[Zorra]

48. Yes, that's the answer. Being a "moderate" Democrat does not

mean you have to vote with republicans and support corporate government over democracy. Blue Dogs/DLC often vote with republicans on critical issues, resulting in republicans winning on these issues. The consequence of this is always a negative result for the people of the US.

Nothing good has ever come out of any situation where Blue Dogs/DLC help republicans pass their destructive legislation.

Districts that have Blue Dog/DLC representatives can replace the republican sympathizing Blue Dog corporatists with moderate Democrats that are pro-democracy and will vote with their Democratic colleagues to help make this country a better place to live.

[onenote]

52. And what evidence do you have that these "moderate" Democrats could win in these districts

And how much do you really know about the Blue Dogs. For example, without looking it up, how many Blue Dogs do you think voted for the resolution setting a timetable for withdrawing the troops?

[Zorra]

54. You mean that totally worthless bill with the "benchmarks"?

That bill was a bad joke.

Probably most, if not all of them.

[onenote]

56. no, the bill that chimpy vetoed.

[B Calm]

53. Before some thin skinned bastard complains and gets this thread locked

I figured I would put my two cents in!

If we did run people against these SOB's, what do we do to stop republicans from doing what they did in Connecticut with Lieberman?

[robcon]

58. I agree with your conclusion, B Calm.

The most important tactic is to target Republicans.

Allow the big tent in the Democratic Party - make no narrow ideological or policy straitjackets, and win election after election.