We desperately need higher taxes!

[Dark]

First off, let me say that it SOOO pisses me off when someone says they hate taxes because it's "your money, not the govurmint's"

Really? Who prints the fucking money?

The government.

But don't forget how much control you had over your birth. I'm sure you were telling St. Peter "I deserve to live in the most beautiful, powerful, richest, and one of the safest places on the planet!" right before you came zipping out on American soil 20 to 50 years ago.

No, you had no control over that.

But you know what has kept "Amurica" the most beautiful, the most powerful, the richest and the safest places to live?

Yeah, the government. At least up until recently.

It was the one force that was guaranteed to be with the people through thick and thin. It is the one thing that every American has a voice in, no matter how small.

Is it perfect? Hell no. But it has been the government that has presided over the most powerful country in the world, and those who want to do business in the nation it has safeguarded for more than 225 years owe it.

Anywho, let's talk about why TAXES are actually good.

And no, I'm not a communist. I'm not going to harp on how much taxes can help the poor, which they can. I'm not going to say taxes can make the environment better, even though they can.

I just realize that high taxes actually strengthen the Free Market.

How, you might ask?

Well, ask yourself what is, from the national perspective, the greatest strength of the free market.

Flexibility.

When at war, it can outproduce any dictatorship, as it did in World War II. When at peace, it can focus on art, money, research, or many other pursuits.

But the free market is also flexible in the sense that it can adapt to shortages or surpluses quickly and efficiently when compared to other economies.

Consider gas. Europe taxes the hell out of their gas.

We don't.

BOOM! Terrorist attack tomorrow in Riyadh.

Gas prices double.

Europe, those mutherfuckin' socialist commie pinko bastard Europeans, can effectively eliminate their gas tax and stabilize their economy. Europe's countries' energy policies are designed so they get most of their energy from other sources, such as how France gets 90% of its power from nuclear reactors.

But, in America, our misguided energy policy and pathetic 50 cent gas tax means that instead of paying 7 dollars a gallon, we pay $6.50.

We're fucked.

Europe's economy is far more flexible than ours. Their governments have reigned in their free markets so they still get the advantages of a free market. But, the governments have used that control to make their economies much more flexible.

And it doesn't just apply to gas taxes. Any tax, when properly implemented, provides the market with a cushion for prices, so the middle and lower classes can't be bombarded with a shitload of high costs.

But, what's properly implemented mean?

Simply put, don't lay it on all at once. That's why I'm not calling for $10 a gallon gas tomorrow.

Quite the opposite. I'm saying increase the federal tax gradually. States and local taxes should also increase.

Congress must also strengthen labor laws, so people can afford to pay these increases. Mandate higher wages and no one is forced to work more than 40 hours a week.

Nonetheless, we need these higher taxes to give our market the flexibility to deal with the time ahead.

[nuclearfishin]

1. How about

if we leave the taxes rate as it is and all of you who feel as though we need higher taxes make donations to the government?

I don't know about you, but I pay almost 25 grand a year in taxes not including sales tax and I don't make 6 figures. I'm out working almost 3000 hours a year and I don't think some drug addled, welfare, baby's momma needs to benefit anymore than she already does.

We'd take in more tax revenue and save billions of dollars if we started limiting the amount of time for welfare, mandatory drug testing for welfare recipients and government funding for chemical birth control for any and all who wanted it.

[baldguy]

2. Taxes are what you pay to live in a civilized society

If you don't like it, move to a place where they don't have taxes - like Somalia.

Bridge collapses, crumbling roads, stream tunnel explosions, flooded cities, tainted food, dangerous products - your tax cuts at work

[Retired AF Dem]

4. Don't like it move?

Sounds like a freeper argument. I don't think taxes need to be any higher. What we need is people with common sense making the decisions where the tax money is being spent. I feel if you keep raising taxes sooner or later the middle class will be taxed out of existence. I live in a modest three bedroom house and have a small car but I will tell you now if taxes went up by ten percent I dont think I could hold onto my house and millions of others would be in the same boat.

[baldguy]

20. The freeper argument is that all taxes are evil & need to be totally eliminated.

If you think your taxes are too high then blame the wealthy & the corporations that use their wealth to destroy the same middle class they prey upon.

You're right - taxes in general aren't too high, and the middle class and poor are over-burdened by them. Thats what happens when Rupert Murdoch pays less in tax then the woman who cleans his office.

[fed-up]

15. taxes are paid to fund wars-if money was spent here instead of there bridges wouldn't crumble nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

52. How about we make everyone pay their fair share and not tell those that are made to pay taxes to

move? How would that be? The richest among us for the past six years have been given major tax breaks, un needed tax breaks. Is that fair? Make them cough up their fair share! Don't give me that tired crap about taxes are what you pay to live in a civilized society when the richest among us always manage to skate! What crap is that?

[Deja Q]

6. Can I have your job?

You probably make $80k/yr and I'm not sure you know of all the tax deductions you could make... they typically take out ~35% of one's income after federal, state, SSI, medicare, and other dues...

It's more than just federal tax cuts - oh, how much in savings did the tax cuts come your way? Very little when the day is said and done.

Though you work 58 hour weeks; 3000 hours/yr divided by 52 weeks...

BTW: When your job is offshored, how will you feel?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nuclearfishin]

35. A little low on the figure, but not much.

I don't do my own taxes and I get the max back every year, even with my federal return I still end up paying about 25k a year.

Florida doesn't have state income tax.

My work weeks go from 40 hours to over 100 hours on any given week. I'm salaried plus overtime.

My job can't ever be offshored the government in the interest of national security won't allow it.

In fact, I'm spending more and more time out of the country working because other countries don't have people who can perform my job. I just went to Norway in June and I'm in the process now of negotiating a 5 year contract with the Norwegians that'll let me retire before I'm 40. I'll more than enjoy and invest the $165,000 a year in tax free income that my wife and I will have if the Norwegians meet my conditions.

[fed-up]

14. I think you are on the wrong board-learn about corporate welfare-and money spent on war nt

[nuclearfishin]

21. I think

the welfare being slathered on the lazy and the worthless has created the bigger problem. Cut them off, make them work. The papers are full of jobs for anyone with half a brain.

Corporate America has nothing to do with the welfare state of this country.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nuclearfishin]

26. Poor, Poor, you.

I have worked for minimum wage and worked three jobs to get by. Anyone working is doing more for this country and themselves than anyone who is capable of working yet sits at home on welfare.

Are you saying that because someone has to start out at what you think is too low of a minimum wage they shouldn't have to work at all?

If being progressive means supporting all those on welfare for the rest of their lives, I know which party I won't be voting for.

[salin]

30. "...I know which party I won't be voting for."

In which case, curiosity begs the question, just which party would you be voting for.

PS - curious as to who you count as being on welfare for the rest of their lives... someone on disability ssi? What about those vets we are learning about who are being denied care by the VA (for cost reasons) who have severe disabilities - are they also undeserving? Sometimes it is helpful to clarify just which examples count and don't count or whether sweeping generalizations are intended to cover all people.

[nuclearfishin]

32. If.................

you actually read my post or any of the others that seemed to be deleted in this thread, you would notice that I'm talking about those who have sat on welfare for years and never work even though they are capable.

I'm not talking about those that are afflicted with a real physical or mental problem that makes them incapable of even taking care of themselves. I know a guy in a wheelchair who is a line foreman at an electic motor manufacturing plant that has been in a chair since we were 19 (14 years ago).

As to my vote? I'll have to see who is doing what closer to the elections, it's all lip service and most of it poor at that at this point.

[salin]

34. you are new here, so let me give you a hint

per not getting posts removed. Calling another poster a name directly = deletion vs. calling their idea or the content of their post a name but not the Duer (which makes the argument about the points made, rather than simple insults) = posts remaining. Its a good general rule of thumb to follow.

Thank you for your clarification per who you put into the classification of worthy or not of welfare support.

[nuclearfishin]

36. Yeah, sure.

Like another poster here who calls me an asshole and yet their posts still remain?

How progressive.

[baldguy]

24. Corporations are the largest recipients of welfare in this country - by far

If you work for a living, you have more in common with other people who work for a living (who you characterize as "lazy and worthless", presumably only because they're poor) than you do with the richest 1% that own 60% of this country.

Understand one thing - the rich are not your friends. They HATE YOU and everything you stand for. If they could, they would kill you, grind you up & feed you to their dogs.

[nuclearfishin]

25. I'm not

characterizing anyone who works as lazy or worthless.

Long term welfare recipients who are capable of working are lazy and worthless.

[baldguy]

29. Long term welfare recipients generally DO WORK

People work 60-80 hours a week a min-wage and sub min-wage jobs so they can feed their children and give them a home - and they still need assistance. Why? Because people like you consider them to be "lazy and worthless". Next year it could be you cleaning toilets for $6.55/hr.

People need LIVING wages - not minimum wages. People need unions. They don't need morons who begrudge even the meager assistance - that they have EARNED - that the govt is allowed to provide.

You're taking aim at the wrong target. If you don't like taxes, if you don't like welfare - then be angry at the corporations & the wealthy who benefit from them. They need to PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE and stop being parasites on the middle class.

[nuclearfishin]

33. Once again,

those are not the people I'm talking about.

I'm talking about those with no job who sit at home and draw a check every month for no other reason than they are too lazy to work. I know people need help from time to time, but it has to stop sometime for those that are capable of doing more and don't.

If you can't afford to take care of yourself, stop having kids.

[flaminbats]

38. wow..this sounds great!!

"I'm talking about those with no job who sit at home and draw a check every month for no other reason than they are too lazy to work. I know people need help from time to time, but it has to stop sometime for those that are capable of doing more and don't."


strange how I don't know anyone on welfare living like this! if they are..they must be either very rich or retired. even the disabled people I know, they're struggling to stay out of debt and to pay the bills. but for far too many, the medical bills have the upper hand! please don't forget, Medicaid was dissolved in the 90's.

if you want lower taxes, do it the right way. repeal the Bush taxcuts and bring home our troops from Iraq. every year we have a budget surplus, use it to pay down a little more of the national debt, thus reducing the biggest form of government waste..interest on the national debt. We waste more than $400 billion a year in taxes just for that, that's more than $600 in taxes from each of us every year! if not for the trillions in debt added by Reagan and both Bushes, that would be $500 less in taxes for each of us and a balanced budget every year!

but Republicans love giving us nothing in return, except maybe 9/11, for our hard earned dollars!

[nuclearfishin]

40. How about

The fact that my county had over a 120 million dollar surplus last year, but when people started talking about cutting real estate taxes the county and city goverment flew into a tizzy about how many programs would have to be cut and jobs lost, etc.?

Something somewhere stinks.

I don't know any astronauts, but they've gotta be sending someone up in those space shuttles I see being launched from my house.

[flaminbats]

41. at least your local taxes can go down..

too many counties in the rust belt have shrinking populations, reduced property values, and the only way for these counties to bring in the same amount as the year before is to increase taxes! actually I don't have a problem with the payroll tax or different federal tax rates, the problem I have is with how revenue is raised on the state and local levels!

[Contrary1]

48. You may not know anyone, but I have 3 in my extended family

that fit the description. All female, all unmarried, with between 1 and 4 children. Their stock response when asked why they are not working is that by the time they pay for a babysitter, there's not enough money left to make it worthwhile. ADC, food stamps, free medical, why give that up and take on an actual job? Interesting that the parents of these 3 echo their statements.

Even more interesting is that every damn one of them votes Republican.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VP505]

37. Ok lets

come down hard on the "drug addled, welfare, baby's momma" while we ignore the many billions we taxpayers shell out on corporate welfare, tax cuts for the wealthiest, those who can afford paying much more in taxes without interfering with their lifestyle. We would take in much more tax revenue if we would eliminate tax write offs and loop holes for everyone above a level needed for basic living. Meaning we remove things like Mr X's tax deduction for his yacht because he stands on his poop deck and has a phone conversation with his golfing partner who is a business associate, entitling him to write off a portion of the cost of his boat as a business deduction. BTW how about we drug test all the Politicos who write and pass stupid laws and citizens who support those laws that penalize people because they are poor.

[nuclearfishin]

39. I agree

We need to level the playing field as far as taxes are concerned and eliminate write offs that aren't directly business related, but businesses and corporations shouldn't be hamstrung to the point of diminishing returns where it affects their ability to expand and grow in such a way that it provides more employment oppurtunities to the average person.

A flat tax that wouldn't penalize the average citizen with the abolishment of the IRS would suit me just fine.

Their again, I do think that we should have mandatory drug testing for any and all government officials from the local to the state and federal level.

[Clark2008]

43. Um - you do realize that most women who are on welfare

are not drug-addled baby mamas, don't you? Most women with children on welfare are those who get paid far less than men, fail to get their child support on time and work 40+ hours a week and still can't afford the high price of formula, diapers and daycare.

I was a single Mom for five years. I worked hard, was lucky enough to have "Grandma" care (but I still had to pay her some because she gave up her part-time job to help me out) and rarely got my child support from my ex-husband (who was an abuser and a cheater, which is why I divorced his sorry ass). And I couldn't get any "welfare" until I was laid off and even then it was only 18-month transitional health care insurance and about $50 a MONTH in food stamps. Whoopee.

[Bill McBlueState]

54. what, is it 1992 where you live?

Thanks to Clinton's decision to sign the welfare reform bill back in the 90's, welfare rolls are half the size they were twenty years ago. Also, nobody can receive welfare payments for more than five years.

So part one of your little plan was enacted ten years ago. I bet if we keep voting for so-called liberals like Clinton, we can get going on part two and put the police state machinery in place to start testing large swaths of the population for drug use.

Have we saved billions of dollars yet? It doesn't seem like it.

[hfojvt]

56. for someone with such a 'good' job

you seem to know very little about the federal budget. Complaining about spending on welfare when we spend way more on

wait for it

interest payments on the federal debt - 223.2 billion in 2000.

OTOH Social services cost 18 billion, housing assistance (which becomes income for landlords) 28.8 billion, nutrition assistance (income for grocery stores) 32.5 billion

Gosh, why didn't you complain about foreign aid too? 17.2 billion.

Actually, the government paid 362 billion in interest if you add in the interest it paid to itself (which is actually us, mostly to the social security trust fund, which Bush tries to say does not exist.)

[Bennyboy]

3. How about we spend the taxes we already collect wisely

Instead? Do we really need to develop more nukes? Do we need to spend more on maintaining oboslete cold war weapons that we do on education?

I say cut the defense budget by at least half and work on this country. Fix the potholes, the bridges, the leveees etc....We will still outspend every other ocuntry by ten times if we do that.

[Deja Q]

7. I agree.

While we will need defense, those stories of $2000 toilets and such prove reform is needed.

The budget can be cut without reducing quality of service; or at least shifted so the troops get better gear and benefits for doing their country and its politicians a HUGE service.

And some of these tax cuts, of which most people have not seen any tangible change in their paychecks, may as well be rescinded. We don't need to increase taxes above the rates they were originally, but it's quite clear tax cuts have done virtually nobody any good.

And if Governor Pawlenty can fathom an increase in gas tax over a crumpled bridge, others can fathom the same things before everything else implodes.

India is experimenting with cars powered by air and battery powered motors - why can't we? Our motorway infrastructure is a bit more widespread.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4024853

[WinkyDink]

5. How about not? How about we simply rescind the back-breaking Bush tax-cuts for the top 1% leeches,

and stop the waste, graft, and THEFT of our TREASURY re: the Illegal Invasion of Iraq?

That latter disappeared ONE TRILLION DOLLARS would preclude any "need" for higher REGRESSIVE GENERAL tax.

[OlderButWiser]

8. One fear I have...

...is that higher taxes will be implented wrongly. Like a few years ago when a luxury tax was started. It seemed like a good idea to add a 10 percent tax to luxury items like yachts. But what it did was put the people who built the boats out of work as the rich people spent their money in other ways.

[NotGivingUp]

9. Good...then YOU pay the higher tax for all of us. We should be paying less taxes...

they spend our money on killing people all over this godforsaken planet and YOU think to give them more? They line their pockets with OUR money and screw us every chance they get. They have enslaved us...and spend our money on building THEIR fricking empire. You better do some serious thinking because you are definitely on the wrong track.

[OlderButWiser]

10. Somebody has to ask...

"Really? Who prints the fucking money?"

If I demand to be paid in gold can I get out of paying taxes? :)

[razzleberry]

11. what state do you live in?

there is a 49/50 chance,
that I think your state's gas tax is too low

[MisterHowdy]

12. You pay enough taxes.

You pay enough taxes that you should have universal health care.
You should have better social systems as well.

How about reducing defense spending.
Because the fat defense budget is the real problem.
There is more than enough tax revenue
just to much defense spending.

n/t

[salin]

13. It is inevitable that taxes will be hiked - Bushco has run the US financially

into the ground. People, even on this thread, may want to pretend they are like the GOP and that fake "truths" are real - but we can not maintain the level of deficits and National Debt that bushco has run up. The cost of going into DeFault on servicing our debt would be so much greater, in terms of economic hardships, than the higher taxes that will eventually come our way. The free lunch the bushco has been financing has a price tag. And it is far more steep than simple platitudes of "cutting out welfare" - or even of slimming down the defense budget - or even simply restoring the taxes on the wealthy (ala the obscene tax breaks given by bushco).

The question is when and how much. It isn't a matter of my liking taxes. It is a matter of understanding the costs of bushco that have been deferred, but that eventually have to be paid.

[Dave From Canada]

16. Pure bullcrap. Does anyone think that the federal government doesn't collect enough money from

everyone? I doubt it. It's what the money is spent on, (ie Iraq) that is the problem. You want to mandate higher wages, and also raise taxes higher, but I bet you're the first one to complain about outsourcing. Watch the jobs fly out of the country under your plan. Not good at all. Sorry.

[alarimer]

42. You're from Canada

You have it pretty good there with what you pay. We get nothing like that. I want higher taxes on the RICH. I want to rescind all Bush's tax cuts and I want to tax the hell out of capital gains, which is basically unearned income. I want a mandated living wag and universal, single payer health care. Mostly I want a social safety such as the one that exists in France.

Of course too much money is spent on Iraq. It should never have been spent at all. Corporations are not taxed enough. We can prevent outsourcing by eliminating the corporate charters of those companies that engage in it. They do it because we allow them to. I don't hear of a lot of companies leaving France because of the onerous taxes there.

[Dave From Canada]

51. Really? Do you know about the economic problems in France? I think France is a bad example to go

by, however, there is definitely a happy medium. BTW, France's unemployment rate is almost 10%, with little to no economic growth.

[high density]

17. No, we need to stop spending our money wastefully

such as on a monstrous war machine that is sucking us dry. I have no interest in giving additional money to either my state or federal government, both of which have no sense of fiscal responsibility.

[Stuckinthebush]

19. Let's cut the bloated Pentagon budget first...

and see how much we can do with that money. I'm sick and tired of having my tax dollars spent on death and destruction.

[Kansas Wyatt]

27. And add Corporate Welfare to that.

Average Americans have been enslaved and are being eaten alive, but they do not even realize it.

[salin]

31. Even doing those things, I fear, will not be enough - given how

far into debt this admin has pushed us - there is a price tag that will have to be paid. It is as if the Bushadmin want to push the nation into future default (and hellish economic crises).

[porphyrian]

44. Roll back all the wartime tax cuts the bush administration instituted.

No brainer, like the people who supported the cuts in the first place.

[Karenina]

49. And be sure the cockroaches and their cronies are

indicted, impeached and imprisoned before any new levies are passed. ;-)

[porphyrian]

50. Definitely! - n/t

[GA_ArmyVet]

45. Ahh taxes..

Just having briefly read these posts it looks like the Butter vs bullets arguments. It seems everyones consensus is that in order to get all the social services/infrastructure (butter) needs accomplished then defense money (bullets) has to be cut needed. What I would prefer to see if the government take action to reduce the amount of wasteful irresponsible spending that has been going on for years through many administrations. The pork is killing us. I tend to believe the military needs more money, since i was in and have seen how we have struggled just to keep toilet paper in the barracks. BUt again it comes from wasteful extravagant spending by the personnel who control the money. The higher ups keep the most and provide minimal funding to those on the bottom.

We need to control the extravagant spending by our government and let the actually learn to how to use what we provide to them in a thrifty manner, making wise spending decision, remembering that every dollar they spend was provided by someone out there actually earning it first then giving it to the government in hopes that they will spend it wisely to the benefit of all. Unfortunately our government has been woefully lacking in the area for decades. I for one have no desire to send them more money until they can demonstrate some sort of fiscal discipline because I know that even if they get more money, they will waste it on projects and pork to benefit them (those in power) and not what is in our (the country, society) best interests.

[Odin2005]

46. We need to raise taxes AND cut out pork.

I wouldn't be surprised if we could cut our military budget by like, 25% just by getting rid of useless pet projects that won't result in new useful military tech but instead are nothing but welfare for Boeing and Lockheed Martin (missile defense is an example).

[sutz12]

47. The real falacy of supply side economics....

is that higher marginal tax rates encourage re-investment.

Income taxes are based on net income, not gross. Lower tax rates encourage wasteful spending and boost disposable incomes, which get funneled off into consumer spending. Higher tax rates encourage re-investment in order to lower net income levels, which is what really matters. When corporations, especially, are allowed to increase net income levels without fear of increased taxation, they will tend to funnel the money into dividends and corporate salaries (i.e. themselves) rather than into improving real productiviity in the corporation.

[SammyWinstonJack]

53. We don't desperately need higher taxes, we need people to pay their fair share, we need corporations

to pay their fair share. We need government to spend our tax dollars wisely. That is what we need.

[Common Sense Party]

55. How high should taxes be? What should be the top rate?

35%? 40%? 50%? 70%?

And if you're going to mandate a higher, living wage, what will it be? $10 an hour? $15? Why not make it $25 an hour?

Let's see how flexible the free market is.

[NaturalHigh]

57. Yeah, that'll win elections!

"Vote for me, I'm going to raise your taxes!"

Sounds like the cow voting for the butcher.