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This is not about the Democrats who voted against Bush's FISA bill

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 10:12 AM
Original message
This is not about the Democrats who voted against Bush's FISA bill
Every time SOME Democrats sell out our ideals, the stop attacking the party cries begin. This is not about the Democrats who did the right thing, but we have every right to express our overall displeasure with those who betrayed those ideals. We also have a right to let the leadership know the dispiriting nature of these actions, which affect the entire country. So when an elected Democrat, from a state other than my own, supports these actions, I need to let my representatives know and also the party leadership, including the presidential candidates.

I'm a Democrat. I do not support illegal spying, the immoral Iraq war and illegal spying. I do not expect Congressional Democrats to support these activities.

So I'm outraged! I do not want excuses, and the statements by Democrats who supported Bush's FISA bill sounds like excuses. It's obvious their actions were motivated by fear! I want the truth (and it will not come from those who are complicit).

So what did they vote for...

Pelosi:

Many provisions of this legislation are unacceptable, and, although the bill has a six month sunset clause, I do not believe the American people will want to wait that long before corrective action is taken.


Reid:

Rather than pass this bill, my Republican colleagues chose to rubberstamp a flawed Administration proposal that fails to provide the accountability needed in light of the Administration’s repeated past mismanagement of key tools in the war on terror.


Rockefeller:

My opposition to the final bill was based on the fact that it did not include the privacy protections and safeguards American citizens deserve and expect...Instead, this bill undermines the FISA Court and concedes unprecedented authority to the Attorney General.


Glenn Greenwald just updated this excellent piece, Democrats' responsibility for Bush radicalism, with comments from Senator Dodd:

UPDATE II: This afternoon I interviewed Sen. Chris Dodd, who more than any other presidential candidate is attempting to make issues of executive power and constitutional encroachments the centerpiece of his campaign. I'll post the entire transcript and some commentary in a few days, but for now here is part of the discussion we had concerning last night's FISA vote in the Senate (Dodd, along with Obama and Clinton, voted against the FISA bill):

GG: Can you describe what you think it is that motivated 16 of your colleagues in the Democratic caucus to vote in favor of this bill?

CD: No, I really can't . . . We had caucuses during the day, so everyone knew what was there. You had a vote at 10:00 at night, people say I didn't know what was there, then normally I can understand, but we had a caucus during the day. There was a lot of conversation about it.

<...>

I also asked Dodd why Democrats repeatedly engage in the same self-destructive behavior -- refusing to take a hard-core principled stance against the administration, and instead capitulating just enough to look like losers, but -- despite the capitulation -- still allowing the vote to be used against them. As always (see e.g., Iraq War Authorization, warrantless eavesdropping, Military Commissions Act), they capitulate in order to prevent the vote from being used against them, even though it ends up being used against them anyway because so many of them vote (with futility) against it, but do so without ever fighting for, explaining or defending their position.

I also asked him why, when they were in the minority, the Democrats were so afraid to filibuster anything, even something as drastic as the Military Commissions Act or the Alito nomination, whereas the Republicans run around filibustering everything they can find and don't care at all about being called "obstructionist." Why are the Republicans so aggressive with using their minority tools to block all Democratic initiatives whereas Democrats failed to filibuster for years?

Dodd, by his own candid admission, has no good explanation for the Democrats' behavior, which repeats itself endlessly. He has no good explanation as to why so many of his Democratic colleagues are so deeply afraid of being attacked by one of the weakest presidents in modern American history.

Although Dodd's convictions about the constitutional issues are impressively authentic and come from a place of real passion, and although he agreed with most of the criticisms voiced regarding the timidity of Congressional Democrats, I found the interview rather dispiriting, to put it mildly. That was not due to Dodd per se, but because it is clear that Beltway Democrats have no real strategy for doing anything differently or even any real awareness that something different is necessary.

link


He said Democrats, but I didn't read this as scrap the party or leave the party. We should be able to criticize and express displeasure, especially in the mind-boggling instances of Democrats supporting illegal spying and torture.


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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. AMEN! Rec'd. nt
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. I like Dodd
I like him more and more all the time.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
3. it's not? then why bother?
Kidding! I kid!

Kicked and Nominated
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
4. Unity at the expense of our ideals is submission.
If some in our party don't like our reaction to their selling out our ideals, perhaps they should stop attacking our core beliefs.
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old guy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. Been at an art show for the last 2 days.
Saw almost no news and I come back to this stuff. Cannot believe this! I then remembered a phrase from the 2001 campaign that there was no difference between the 2 parties. Seems that a number of Democrats in the congress feel the same way. Sad.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
6. Excellant post and article/interview!
:kick: & recommended!
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
7. If we don't put pressure on our own party to do the right things we
are contributing to the downfall of our country too.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. (Dodd) has no good explanation for the Democrats' behavior,
Edited on Sun Aug-05-07 10:49 AM by Warren Stupidity
I do. Our republic is a dysfunctional one party kleptocracy. The bipartisan War Party controls the whole show. It is that simple. We vote for a shell of a party: the Democratic Party, we thought we won a huge victory last November. We were totally wrong. The War Party sailed through last November's farce unscathed. They continue to control the Executive, the Judiciary, and the Congress. Until we are willing to accept the reality of the situation we will be unable to effectively act to change the situation.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
34. Ditto
"Our republic is a dysfunctional one party kleptocracy."
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global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
9. I'm Pissed That My Dem Congressman - Lipinski - Voted For This.....
there is no reason for him to feel threatened in his district of losing his seat - if he voted against it. I just can't figure out why he always votes the wrong way.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. He needs to held accountable
Work to get his ass thrown out. All GOP and everyone of the Rotten 44 should fear for their seats come 2008!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
10. This seems a good place to add this Daily Kos diary: "Poem from Guantanamo"
Poem from Guantanamo:

Jumah al Dossari, a 33-year-old Bahraini national, is the father of a young daughter. He has been held at Guantánamo Bay for more than five years. Detained without charge or trial, Dossari has been subjected to a range of physical and psychological abuses, some of which are detailed in "Inside the Wire," an account of the Guantánamo prison by former military intelligence soldier Erik Saar. He has been held in solitary confinement since the end of 2003 and, according to the US military, has tried to kill himself 12 times while in the prison. On one occasion, he was found by his lawyer, hanging by his neck and bleeding from a gash to his arm.

DEATH POEM

Take my blood.
Take my death shroud and
The remnants of my body.
Take photographs of my corpse at the grave, lonely.
Send them to the world,
To the judges and
To the people of conscience,
Send them to the principled men and the fair-minded.
And let them bear the guilty burden, before the world,
Of this innocent soul.
Let them bear the burden, before their children and before history,
Of this wasted, sinless soul,
Of this soul which has suffered at the hands of the "protectors of peace."



A reminder of what the U.S. Congress condones.


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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Those poems were devastating.
I meant to post them here. The boston globe should be applauded for having the courage to publish them.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
37. I read that poem and I feel accused.
Is that because I have a conscience?

They have to be stopped.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
13. Almost 6 years after 9/11, and 57 Democrats decide it's urgent to condone Bush's illegal spying
From a Daily Kos diary by Meteor Blades:

If anybody asks why in hell you chose to legalize what the Cheney-Bush team has been doing illegally since 2001, you’re going to tell us you did it for our own good. You amended the 29-year-old Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act – originally passed to put some modest restrictions on agencies whose outrageous and frequently illegal behavior had been exposed by journalists and the Church Committee – to make us safe. You’re going to tell us you’ve got our backs.




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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
14. They didn't have to bring a single bill out of committee.
not a one. It's the PARTY that decides what gets voted on, so the party is to blame.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. Jack Balkin gets to the point,
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
16. most of these criticisms come with a broad brush smear of all Dem legislators
and whatever defense the poster can muster for that broad brush smear
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I call BS.
I see a lot of criticism of the Blue Dog faction who continually roll over to have their tummies scratched by the criminal in the WH.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
17. makes ya wonder
if the votes in favor of what der fuhrer wants are being done out of blackmail, no?
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
19. Thanks ProSense n/t
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
20. Here is how your FISA will be used...
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. Constructive post.
Dodd seems to highlight the same bewilderment with the party leadership that many of us here have.

I think the leadership actually believes in the whole Bush agenda. From the tax-cuts for the rich to the war profiteering for their masters.

It fits every single scenario where other explanations just add to the mind-boggle factor.

The DLC has been exposed, all the candidates are avoiding them like the plague. Lieberman is exposed. Who are the others?
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
22. K&R
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
23. There is confusion here
Edited on Sun Aug-05-07 09:28 PM by creeksneakers2
There were two different FISA bills. Bush used a technical problem as an excuse to demand authority to eavesdrop without judicial review.
The Democrats outfoxed Bush, by offering a bill that just fixed the technical problem and continued judicial and other review.

There was nothing wrong with the Democratic bill. The problems were with the Republican bill, the one that ended up passing. The GOP bill allowed judicial review to be bypassed.

Pelosi,Reid and Rockefeller all opposed the Republican bill. None of the statements you cite are in support of the GOP bill.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. The OP doesn't say that
Pelosi, Reid and Rockefeller's statements are about Bush's bill (condemning it), hence the lead in to their statements:

"I want the truth (and it will not come from those who are complicit)...So what did they (the 57 Democrats) vote for..."
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Sorry, I get it now
The proceeding paragraph said:

So I'm outraged! I do not want excuses, and the statements by Democrats who supported Bush's FISA bill sounds like excuses. It's obvious their actions were motivated by fear! I want the truth (and it will not come from those who are complicit

It looked to me like the statements by Pelosi,Reid and Rockerfeller were the ones you were referring to.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. No problem.
I'm glad they had the good sense to vote against it. The bill should have never made it to a vote.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. In the end, the
Democrats were outfoxed.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. There definitely is a lot of confusion here.
If our party leadership opposed the Bush bill, then how did the bill get to the floor for a vote with the Dems in control of both houses?

Everyone should be confused.

It's right up there with more funding for the war without any kind of plan. They pretend to be against stuff while they make sure it gets passed and signed into law.

And if a veto is threatened by the weakest administration in our history, they run for the hills.

Must get along with the monsters in the Whitehouse. :argh:
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Exactly. It's as if...
they don't *want* to win. They want to put on a show for the people who will buy it, but when it comes down to it they side with Bush, over and over.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
35. I'm still confused
about how the Repug bill got passed instead of the improved Dem bill.
Was it a flim-flam somehow?

How much blame do you put on the Dem leadership, or should we just put the blame squarely on the infamous 44?

What is the main reason the 44 voted FOR it? Or would there be many different reasons?

-----------------------
Just throwing out questions...to anybody in this thread. I'd really like to understand just what DID happen here?


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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
28. This is about a failure of party leadership to do some necessary arm-twisting to get the necessary
votes. Plain and simple. If it took a little pork in a later appropriations bill or whatever, both Reid and Pelosi needed to communicate in the morning caucus that a "yes" vote on the Republic bill was unacceptable and find out what needed to be done to get the necessary votes to sink the bill.
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farmboxer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
30. The are some good Dems left
no doubt about that, but seems like power goes to some politician's heads. Those who do what Bush tells them to do should ask Bush for a donation, but me.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
32. (shrug) If only DUers were able to distinguish good from bad Democrats...
Edited on Mon Aug-06-07 02:25 AM by BlooInBloo
... And also the difference between a bad Democrat, and a good Democrat who votes badly on a specific occasion.
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spindoctor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 05:18 AM
Response to Original message
33. Draw party lines and vote accordingly!
It is not very democratic, it is definitely not very liberal, but hey, if they do it then why don't we?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
36. Kick! n/t
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