while the dems were out "power-played" by bushco ... I think a different power-play

[salin]

was won by the dems per Gonzales.

Don't get me wrong - I think the votes on FISA are horrendous and I don't mean to downplay them. I just want to hold up to the light something else I read - and what I think the significance is:

So Goonzales has to send a "clarification" letter per his testimony. Among things he had to admit was that there were political briefings for top officials at the DOJ most at the WH - some headed by Rove himself - and one at the Dept of Ag. Then there is slippery slope language per how these meetings didn't violate DOJ policies (let alone the Hatch Act.)

This strikes me as significant. And I smell a little bit of fear.

Fear that Congress really might take action against Gonzales - and in order to protect the bushco protector - there was a cave-in. Give more info - including stuff that is really bad for Gonzo and the WH. Let's see - Monica was at some... monica of illegal hiring civil servant positions based on politics fame... Let's see Hatch Act violations (likely) made. Let's see - more and more charges that the administration of Justice at the DOJ under Gonzo was not only politically motivated, but directed from the WH... grounds for overturning cases in the future, perhaps?

The point is more was revealed in the letter and subsequent document drop than before - a lot more - and a lot of bombshells... it would appear that in weighing out the options, capitulating to Congress in order to try to save the protector, just happened. To the level of the bombshell dropped... this, at least to me, is very interesting. Bushco doesn't do things hap-hazardly, they are intentional.

No, we won't see gonzo prosecuted or impeached in the near-near future (per his recent capital hill performance) - but they (bushco) are afraid... Gonzo goes and a whole lot of federal and international illegalities come spilling out - not out of his mouth, per se, but out into the light without the cover of Gonzo who has turned the DOJ into a political and political protection arm of the WH. Given the blatant obstinance and defiance the WH and DOJ has been treating Congress to - this little caving/capitulation on their part seems pretty suggestive of fear. On this front the WH just blinked... and I suspect tipped their hat a little bit in the process.

Right now I am of such mixed emotions - vehement emotions that are directly opposed to one another that it is hard to see straight when thinking about the Dems in Congress. Yet through my cloudy, angry, concerned vision... I see this development on the DOJ/WH/ Congress power play and feel deep down in my gut - that this is Big - and that some of the wheels of the WH machinations are starting to come off.

Or perhaps I am looking for a ray of light, where there is none....

[salin]

1. washington post link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/03/AR2007080302238.html

There was the letter of clarification to Leahy - as well as docs sent to Waxman.

[Jackpine Radical]

2. Wow, do I understand where you're at.

You keep watching the surface accommodations and little capitulations, hoping all along that there is a deeper game afoot, that they are avoiding peripheral skirmishes because they are carefully positioning themselves for a decisive push. I have previously suggested that maybe we don't really know what we're watching play out, that we're sniping at them for making bad checkers moves when all the while they're playing chess.

But who the hell knows?

[salin]

4. mind-numbingly dizzying, is the only way I can describe

watching and trying to follow all of the developments.

I have said for years, and believe now more than ever, what is at stake isn't getting bushco out (which is big) but discrediting the GOP and their philosophies/policies to such a great degree in the public mind that the rejection is feirce and long-lasting. When all spills out it has to be so clear to the majority of the public - that on a visceral level (not the level on which we "forget quickly") the reaction is one of repulsion and avoidance. We may be entering one of those rare eras where a major political party ends up dying off (and who knows what will take its place).

I think this capitulation - given the ridiculous intransegence power plays to prevent Miers and others from going to the Hill (those are fricking heavy weight power plays that they think either they can win, or know that to lose them would take so much time through the courts that the clock ticks out in their favor) - and yet... fear that congress would act on gonzales if this level of info/via "clarification" wasn't given?

They can't lose Gonzo.

So it appears they are willing to show a little more "skin" (illegal acts) in order to stave off a different kind of power play that congress could win in ousting gonzo. I think that shows how high the stakes are at the WH. And how instransigent the Congress has to become and remain in fighting off the paries for secrecy around the WH/DOJ story - because a win... Even if after bushco is thrown out of office in 08 - appears to be likely to break a damn... here's waiting for that particular deluge.

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. You over-estimate the Republican constituency.

They won't care how often Bush and his minions claim they broke laws. They'll only watch to see if what they do gets punished. If it doesn't, they'll give Bush and Co. a pass because they'll believe that Bush broke all those laws for the good of the country, and the Democrats must have agreed with them, because they did nothing.

[salin]

18. a year or two ago, I would have agreed with you.

but the gut level reaction to bushco is so strong for so many... its not easily forgotten. The GOP running for president are idiots... they can't raise much money and don't seem to have a clue that spouting bush policy after bush policy is NOT what the public wants to hear. I think something very fundamental has shifted on the ground... not much different than the ground shifting in public sentiments that occurred in the Reagan years.

[The Backlash Cometh]

21. I hope you're right.

[salin]

22. I can not tell you how many moderate right repubs I have

spoken with over the past couple of years who can not stand bush, no longer trust the party at the national level, and have started talking about voting on each candidate on their merits over party. This is in Indiana. The tide began with the Schaivo mess... that showboating for the religious right shocked a lot of religious republicans here. Over time, with additional fiasco stories and scandals the "ick" factor at bush which is spreading to the GOP has only grown (that is how we got three more dems elected, granted each one of them did the FISA cavein vote - but they have strongly voted the dems other votes.) I don't think I see the state going Blue at the top of a national pres. ticket anytime soon... but bushco keeps going with its arrogance and self-righteousness while flaunting their lack of concern with the little folks... even that could change. Sea of change is what I am sensing.

[acmavm]

3. Sorry, I think your last sentence is more to the point. What clarification?

He just put his bullshit on paper.

Why could not Pelosi stand up in the House and say, when the vote on FISA came up (which was tabled until night time) "This administration has all the tools that it needs to fight terrorism. It has the Patriot Act and other legislation that already allows them to monitor terrorists. All we ask is that they abide by the law and get a warrant for their spying. We do this because out of respect for the Constitution of the United States, the laws of our land, and the rights of the American people." And then keep the damn thing 'tabled' until they come round, or just never not bring it up for a vote.

Oh, wait. What was I thinking? 'Impeachment is off the table' Pelosi. I must have had some kind of mental abberation, but I'm better now.

ab·er·ra·tion

4. mental irregularity or disorder, esp. of a minor or temporary nature; lapse from a sound mental state.

http://www.wu-yisource.com/home.php

[salin]

5. You are right.. we LOST with the FISA fight. And I am furious.

But I think we won something in the DOJ fight - not directly (the info is big but not toppling big) but indirectly... to NOT give the clarification and info (both to Leahy and other info to Waxman) appears to have been too much to risk (the risk being the ousting of Gonzales.) THAT is the roadmap to follow.

I grieve the FISA votes and the dem party that didn't just dare the Veto from bush. Don't get me wrong. But that doesn't stop me from seeing some other developments over the weekend - and speculating about their significance.

[acmavm]

6. Unlike some people here, I sure as hell WOULDN'T WANT you to stop

seeing and commenting on these developments, on all these important events. Even if we disagree.

[salin]

7. that is much appreciated.

only because of DU do I keep up with enough stories to periodicaly seeing developments that may or may not be worthy of thinking... hmmmm and then commenting upon (cause I can't help myself). There are few DUers with whom my disagreement in universal - we tend to criss cross depending on the issue. I find that to be our path.

Plus - we northern red-staters have a special bond per trying to keep sane locally.

Peace.

[GreenPartyVoter]

8. We need a whistleblower or twelve

[salin]

10. I think they are there... which is how enough

info was initially disclosed to get this ball rolling.

Also isn't a suprise to me the timing of the FBI raid on the home of a former DOJ lawyer who they claim to suspect of being the original NSA FISA story leaker. INTIMIDATION. DESPERATION. Reeks.

[troubleinwinter]

28. Like THIS whitleblower, ex DOJ attny., just invaded by a "classified search warrant" a week ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1518452&mesg_id=1518452

One of TWO "classified search warrants" ever issued to be found on Google??!

[defendandprotect]

30. As we saw from the AGs who got phone calls + Valerie Plame . . ..

potential whistleblowers are WARNED that they will also be destroyed.

Someone on Randi Rhodes mentioned this the other day . . . can't recall who the guest was . . .
but that people like Sara Taylor -- hope I have her name correct -- understand that should they testify truthfully that they are under threat then of REVENGE.

Bushco is big on REVENGE --

[KharmaTrain]

9. Try This One On...

A buddy the other day threw this bone out...and I couldn't refute it.

His theory is that Gonzo will resign during a vacation...maybe even this is the set-up to his exit and that boooshie could recess appoint a replacement and avoid any confirmation. He'd pull the same shit he did with Bolton and again kick the can...pardoning Gonzo of any "crimes" and doing the same to Rove if he's charged.

The wheels have been coming off since the '04 elections, but we sit here on this Sunday...some of the few, it appears, that have seen this story, yet see its significance. Everyone's distracted in other directions...and methinks that was intentional.

I join you on the emotions...I say I can't get more frustrated or angry and yet I see the crap pulled the past two days in the House and Senate. You can't defend the indefensible. But we can't throw hands up at this point and look the other way. If anything, I'm hoping this item hasn't passed the eyes of Mr. Conyers and Waxman...they might have been handed some smoking guns.

Cheers...

:toast:

[salin]

11. some of this was sent directly to waxman

and I am sure some on staff if not Conyers himself have read this already.

There is noone who is as safe to them as Gonzo - he protects them and himself - given his involvement of much at the WH... unless of course they would recess appoint John Yuu (sp?)

[KharmaTrain]

12. Don't Put It Past Them

Yoo would be a real f-u...and it'd be interesting how that would go over inside the Department where I keep reading that it place is in near revolt mode.

The interesting game now goes to the Solictor General...does he approve a Special Proseuctor. We now have just cause that a federal law has been violated...so what say you, Mr. Paul Clement. Do you appoint? Do you recuse? Do you resign?

[salin]

13. Isn't that the same Clement who was a signatory on PNAC?

should mean recuse, but probably means more attempts at CYA.

[troubleinwinter]

24. Catch 22

Supposin' Gonzo resigns and there is a recess appointment of an AG and Gonzo gets a blanket pardon.

Gonzo would still be required to testify for any congressional hearings if subpoenaed, or be held in contempt.

Who would prosecute the contempt??!! Hahahah! Right.

Truth is forever covered.

[salin]

25. same scenario a year + later with a dem president

keep the resign/recess appointment and pardon in place...

Gonzo requred to testify, subpeonaed, held and prosecuted in contempt (by career DOJ lawyer, no doubt)... that which comes out from the investigations gets passed on to federal prosecutors (long-time careerists, no doubt) - and prosecutions begin - if not for Gonzo (blanket pardon) but for other WH players Gonzo was no longer able to protect under the cloak of the DOJ... Wonder what the statute of limitations is on the different crimes being committed.

Its a possible scenario...

Btw, great to see you - we generally cross paths in the ER forum - nice to cross paths with you here!

[Robson]

31. The only way to stop it is to begin impeachment proceedings. - nt

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. Salin, what depresses me...

...is the right wing think they're entitled to break the laws because their mission is good. And they also believe they have the right to empower and enrich themselves in the process. From my reading, what it sounds like is that Gonzo gave us something we would have discovered anyways, and in return, our Congress promised not to impeach him AND sign off on the FISA revision.

I'm glad you pointed out the "deal," but I've decided that Democrats in Congress are lousy negotiators.

[salin]

17. I think that the dems were out maneuvered, without a question...

and I continue to scratch my head and seethe.

But the DOJ scandal that keeps on giving? I don't think the FISA vote was a deal for that. Damning documents that I don't thik we would have found - given the obscene kind of stone-walling they have been engaged in. I think instead the give was to prevent impeachment - and not a voluntary one on the part of Gonzo/WH - a recognition that on this front they have lost enough support of GOP congress that they would LOSE. They rarely pick battles that they know that they are going to lose. Esp in light of what they are trying to protect and cover up.

I honestly think that the congress and WH was playing chicken over FISA - and that the WH played harder and in the end, esp with the bridge collapse at the tail end of a month with hyped up terror alerts, the fear was on the dem side... what if something happens and we could be blamed by NOT giving the WH this power. They should know better by now - the RW machine will attack them regardless. The only concession given to the dems who did vote was putting a second person into the final say so that okay of survellience did not fall solely on the shoulders of the discredited Gonzo. The dems played their hand weakly. And lost. They haven't fully realized that the GOP plays hard-ball and that the dems really do have the power to stand toe to toe. For example, pass the law with tons of constraints on it - and force bush to veto it and parallel the "whose fault" if another tragedy occurred. Or simply not acting on it - but not recessing (the problem with the recess was it would give bushco a full month to mock and create the impession that the dems did nothing) - and instead pursuing the DOJ and other scandals full throttle ahead. Everytime the bushco and rwmedia would start the "soft on fisa/soft on terror" meme - drop another investigative bombshell to steal the headlines. Our leadership plays rougher than they used to - but not rough enough.

The only reason they got what I think of a "they blinked" moment - was that Gonzo is so bad that he has lost the confidence of GOP members of Congress who would join dems in taking action against Gonzo. That gave us the power to win this particular game of chicken. Our leaders have to get better at this - or risk selling us all out to the point where we may end up with little to salvage. :-(

[The Backlash Cometh]

20. Our leaders, must indeed, get better at this.

Just remember, though, that it's not us that need to be convinced. It's the Republican voter. And they don't reason the way we do. As long as they believe that George Bush fought for what he believed in, they'll revere him, no matter how many laws he breaks. The key is to find out that he did it for selfish reasons, or provide enough information so that an American citizen can prove that Bush crossed the line and targeted them purely for political reasons -- enough so, that they can begin a civil lawsuit. Only with confirmation of the courts, will you really get the message across.

[salin]

23. I agree... and am coming to believe that this will only happen

due to the aggressive obsruction of justice from the Wh and the DOJ, after this admin leaves... when a dem is elected to the WH (which is growing more and more likely) and with larger margins in both houses of congress. Then I think investigations will turn into federal prosecutions (and civil suits) - and while some of the judiciary have become tainted... there are still many more who uphold the law (even if not at the SC level.)

[AndyTiedye]

16. It is Because Bush** Has All the Power. Congress Cannot Stand Against the The Unitary Executive

[salin]

19. then how did congress just get bushco to flinch per DOJ

revelations. Fear of knocking Gonzo out of power pushed the flinch moment.

that said - on almost all other fronts you are exactly correct. Given bushco has taken so much power and flaunts it as they strive to take more - the dems in congress are weakened to the point of doing what is asked of them with attempts to mitigate the damage of the end product. That is a pathetic state of affairs.

However, the house of cards tumbles down if Gonzo goes. I hope congress is noting that they were just given a clear peek at the faultline with in this administration and that they start taking greater advantage of it. Dig in deeper, force more out at the risk of politically ringing Gonzo's neck - I have a feeling that if the faultline breaks... no amount of "Unitary Executive" crap will save bushco, or their apparent heirs in the GOP.

[AndyTiedye]

29. They Can Afford to Do That BECAUSE Congress Cannot Touch Them

They are saying, "yes it was political and it still is, and you ain't seen nothing yet if you cross us, because we've got the power to twist the law any way we want to".

[salin]

32. It is so fricking depressing...

you are right. They keep rewriting the rules and the laws. They have twisted the constitution up into a paper wad and put it in a trash compactor. :angry:

[Kip Humphrey]

26. Is a gambit afoot? Did Pelosi/Reid&Co set a trap to catch a Gonzo mouse with the cheese of excess?

Or...Are we witness (i.e., FISA vote) to the fallout of yet another successful Rovian manipulation?

Time will tell but the Dems are fast running out of rope.

[salin]

27. no gambit, no "secret plan, indeed much of this is gonzo inflicted...

the dems are standing firm and pushing back hard on the DOJ USA issues... but here is the rub (cause to date bushco still wins the power plays) there are enough repubs in congress getting angry at gonzo - that the dem threat is perceived by the WH as more solid and real... I think the WH flinched a bit and showed a faultline... and I do give credit to the dems in both the house and senate judiciary committees and Waxman's committee for pushing HARD, but the tipping point factor - seems to be the GOP members falling away from the WH in terms of support for gonzo.