There is nothing, but death.

[Jack Sprat]

"There is no water, no electricity, there is nothing, but death." These are the words of a Karbala resident. Only the wealthy can afford gasoline. This, in the country that sits on the 3rd largest proven fuel reserve in the world.

Iraq's power grid is on the brink of collapse. Local provinces are unplugging themselves from the national grid. Water mains are going dry. Power outages and daily temperatures ranging from 110 to 120 degrees make life almost unbearable. Of 17 high-tension lines running into Baghdad, only 2 are operational.

Do you think that we can ask our politicians to reappraise their positions as "liberators and occupiers" of this poor, pathetic population of Iraqis? The insurgent attacks destroy any repairs of power lines and fuel lines as soon as the repairs are made. What more can we do to destroy this country that we haven't already done? This is well into the 5th year of occupation. There is nothing more that our Armed Forces can do but to kill and be killed. There is nothing, but death. Are there no limits to our guilty national pride?

When presidential candidates are asked whether American soldiers have died in vain, in Vietnam and Iraq, there is no need for downward glances, foot shuffling, long pauses, and mumbled rejections. The answer is easy. YES. Most of them died because our guilty national pride wouldn't allow us pack up and leave when it was long past time.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Or to not have gone in the first place...

K&R

[Skidmore]

2. Unles syou are a Republic, then before death there is nothing

but taxes.

[PDJane]

3. The Iraq infrastructure is crumbling because

the US wants it to crumble. The bombs targetted the infrastructure first. It's a war crime, and pre-emptive war is the supreme war crime.

[onethatcares]

18. and as far as winning in Iraq,

after reading quite a bit this weekend I believe the plan is to have the American taxpayer rebuild the power grid, the water system and the rest of the infrastructure then sell it to the highest bidder who in turn willl charge the Iraqia ungaudly amounts for the services and products. It's the world bank and imf way of saying fuck you.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

4. K & R. Excellent post...

...Viet Nam, like Iraq is a place we had no moral or legitimate reason to invade either -- our industrial military complex is an out of control monster.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[partylessinOhio]

6. This is what our Congress supports - all the way -

up to late last evening. They have supported * and his invasion. They have fully funded his destruction and killing. They are empty vessels in suits and Armani.

:thumbsdown:

[formercia]

7. Depopulating Iraq

The Islamic Diaspora.

Welcome to the Corporate Paradise. All laws are made for the benefit of the Corporations, their managers and shareholders.

Iraq will become the testing ground for the New World Order.


Which country will be next?

[stillcool]

8. They keep their eyes on the prize...

[Jack Sprat]

10. This is an Iranian property and cuts through

the heart of Iran. If that is what this occupation of Iraq is about, then we have become a predator nation and there is no reason to any longer make references to our being a peaceful nation that plays by the rules of international law.

[PDJane]

16. Congratulations.

A somewhat delayed conclusion, perhaps, but quite correct.

[stillcool]

19. I think there is quite a few different ...

proposed routes, with different players advocating for different routes..and it's been going on for a long time. I used to have links to some pretty cool maps, but for some reason they've disappeared from the net. This has some interesting maps though ...
http://www.theglobaleducationproject.org/mideast/info/maps/middle-east-military-and-oil-map.html
if you scroll down there's this

and when you enlarge it you can see the different oil companies that have 'agreements?' for the different blocks. This from an article from 1999

"Note to schoolteachers: Find the Caspian on the map, draw a circle around it, and show it to the children. Twenty years from now, or perhaps even 10, some of them may find themselves deployed there."
Paul Starobin, "The New Great Game," National Journal,
Washington magazine for U.S. policymakers

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/caspgrph.html#TAB2
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/natres/oil/2003/1028axis.htm
The Axis of Oil - How a Plan for the World's
Biggest Pipeline Threatens to Wreak Havoc
By Philip Thornton and Charles Arthur
Independent
October 28, 2003

It is a story of empire-building, intrigue, espionage, double-dealing and arm-twisting that Rudyard Kipling would have been proud to write. Kipling popularised the phrase "The Great Game" to describe the secret battle to dominate central Asia fought between the British Empire, Russia and France. But even he would have blanched at plans by the United States - with the help of the oil giant BP and British taxpayers - to establish a hegemony across an area stretching from the Russian borders to the Mediterranean Sea.

Inevitably, the need for oil is at the heart of the story. Two former Soviet states, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, between them have oil reserves three times the size of America's. The "game" is to find the safest way to get that black gold into the petrol tanks of American cars. The US has been pushing for a new pipeline since Bill Clinton was in office. At first, companies were reluctant, but the rising price of oil, allied to threats in the Persian Gulf and the likelihood of huge reserves of oil and gas worth as much as $4 trillion under the Caspian, has made them increasingly bullish. The US Environment Department estimates that by 2010, the Caspian region could produce 3.7 million barrels per day. This could fill a large hole in world supplies as world oil demand is expected to grow from 76 million a day, in 2000, to 118.9 million by 2020. By this time, the Middle Eastern members of OPEC would be looking to supply half of that need. The geopolictical stakes are high - the pipeline would be able to pump as much as 4.2 million barrels per year, easing the US's reliance on the unstable Gulf states for oil.

The answer is the world's longest export pipeline, a 1,090-mile, 42-inch wide pipe snaking its way within a 500-metre corridor from the Caspian Sea port of Baku, in Azerbaijan, to Ceyhan, in Turkey, via some of the world's most unstable and conflict-ridden nations. The project will cost up to $4 billion (£2.4bn) and is being built by a consortium of 11 companies led by BP. Almost three quarters of the funding will come in the form of bank loans including some $600 million of taxpayers' money.
--------------------------------------------------------
Scheduled to begin working in 2005, the pipeline is expected to bring in more than £65m annually to the regions through which it passes. But there are doubts about whether the money generated will benefit people and the environment in the area - or simply corrupt officials among the "corridor" governments. Of course there are alternative routes for a pipeline from the Caspian Sea. The problem, however, is not environmental but geopolictical. Iran has suggested a route along the eastern shore of the Caspian to Turkmenistan and through Iran to the Persian Gulf. It has offered $1.6 billion towards the cost, but this is unlikely to be accepted. Another possibility would be a south-eastern route to post-Taliban Afghanistan. Lastly Russia is lobbying for the oil to be pumped through its network to the Black Sea port of Novorossiisk, but that would put US oil supplies at risk.

Mr Kleveman warns that imperial ambitions in the region will end in the same way they did for the British and the Russians: "The actors may have changed since Kipling's time but its culmination in war and death remains the same and the victims are nearly always innocent civilians," he writes. "They know why oil is called the Devil's tears."
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/natres/oil/2003/1028axis.htm/div]

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

9. (wish you would've said) the U.S. corp-supporting government is responsible for death,....

,...of democracy and freedom and liberty and poverty and suffering and equality and human potential and decency and hope.

[Jack Sprat]

13. If a naiton of people become tolerant of

a predatory, corporate government which attacks and seizes the property and assets of other nations, then I think they become complicit in the crimes against international law. I think so. I stand corrected if I am wrong.

[Hydra]

11. I love how they prattle on and on about giving the Iraqis freedom

While taking away their vital needs.

The military could have had all of the infrastructure back up in 2 weeks after the fall of Baghdad, easy.

As PDjane says, it's easier to kill them by denying them resources like water, food and medicine than with men with bullets. Bullets cost money, you know!

I told people this 1 year after all of this happened, but all I got were blank looks and "they're doing the best they can!"

Yeah, doing their best to keep the pot stirred.

[burrowowl]

12. How many are dying of thirst? NT

[Jack Sprat]

14. Karbala has been without power for 3 days,

causing the water mains to run dry. I don't know how long people can go without water, but I suspect not many days. The power shutdowns in Baghdad have also curtailed pumping and filtrations systems. Sewage is also rising above ground level in parts of Karbala to further compound their problems.

[burrowowl]

15. 3 days in that heat maybe less

young babies, a few hours.
And the sewage will cause wide spread disease, etc.
What Bu$hCo has done is commit war crimes!

[sofa king]

17. I thought this was going to be a tribute to Ingemar Bergman.

In a way, I suppose it is.

[Rex]

20. Once upon a time, they had 8 hours of glorious energy! Once a day.

Now they are lucky to get clean water, all in the name of Democracy and Freedom! :sarcasm:

[PatSeg]

21. Kind of like an abusive spouse

Beat the wife and break the furniture. Then pay the medical bills and replace the furniture and blame the wife because she wouldn't stand up and take control of her battered body and wrecked home. Eventually bankrupt spouse leaves devastated wife, having done "all he could" and destitute wife has to rebuild her broken life. Spouse complains about the lack of gratitude for all his generosity and berates her for her lack of independence. Oh and he probably had originally rescued her from a domineering parent or ex-husband. "You just can't help some people!"

[19jet54]

22. Vietnam failure?

While we lost control of that country, the rapid expansion of Communism was basically over, along with the cold war efforts? Now we are trying to stop the rapid expansion of radical religious fanatics? Next the world may try to stop the aggressive expansion of American force, if we are not more careful?

While conditions are miserable in Iraq & I basically agree with your post - it is way too soon historically to declare Iraq a total failure; don't get me wrong, Bush really "Screwed the Pooch" there, but much depends on the next President and what the future holds - or at least that is my hope? But it is up to the UN, Iraq neighbors, the world; but most of all, the Iraqi people to finish this story. Our big mistake is thinking we are somehow in-charge of something over there?

"Died in Vain" - Some believe all who die in war fit this phrase, others believe in the basic cause of freedom & self-sacrifice; whatever your belief, I personally will never use it out of respect for those who died & their families. While very sad, it is simply not my place to disrespect anyone on this issue.

I do share your pain in feeling for the Iraqi people's suffrage!

[Jack Sprat]

26. Whose history books are you reading?

Yes, Vietnam was a complete failure. Stopped Communism? The Communists won in Vietnam.

Yes, in vain. The same vanity that keeps people, such as yourself, from uttering such an admission. Communism is an economic system. We interfered in a civil war in Vietnam to support an economic system in a country a half a world away.

So, we stopped the Cold War in Vietnam? Huh...I didn't realize.

[19jet54]

28. You misread & misquoted what I said

Re-read it carefully!

I didn't read it in a book, I lived it...

[Jack Sprat]

32. me, too. Let's compare memories.

We interceded in an Asian civil war. Although it was under the guise of stopping the spread of communism, the communists rolled into the south after 58,000 of our soldiers died long after our guilty national pride had allowed our national leaders to privately admit that the war in Vietnam was not winnable. They had already admitted privately that our effort could not be sustained, but would not leave because of how it would look for the U.S. to "cut and run", as the common phrase describes it. Purely and simply, "died in vain", some of whom were friends and classmates from school.

[19jet54]

43. No argument there...

... now go past that (yes I know it is hard to). After Vietnam, say 1980s what countries went Communist? Europe, Asia, South America or where-ever? If I recall, drugs in South America, Iran, Nicaragua, Panama, Grenada, Lebanon, Afghanistan were about other issues than the spread of Communism? Sure, some of it was Proxy-Cold War stuff, but most was not. India/Pakistan was about other issues too. Taiwan/China/Tibet was land disputes. My point is that past Vietnam, the US, China & Russia simply behaved somewhat differently than during the 50-70s? And, all of the dire predictions of the "domino effect" simply did not happen? Did Vietnam change everyone's behavior, because it was so nasty?

Now regarding, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan & Israel the issue has been the same for a long time - religion?

My point is that both sides of the Vietnam war were all wrong as to the future; and based on that, I hold little faith in the current predictions post Iraq by either side.

Again, regarding "Died in Vain" - I am not worthy to make such judgments of the American Revolution, Indian Wars, Spanish War, Mexican-American War, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam or any American loss, other than to say I respect them all, but suffer to justify any death out of respect for the families. Of course, you are free to say what you will on this matter, but like religion, it is a personal thing. Unless you want to be a preacher?

Regarding 9/11 I think they died in vain because the GOP was too busy pushing out Richard Clark, FBI Terror experts and involved too much in politics and government housekeeping to focus. I believe the same opportunity will present itself the next transition period of power regardless of who wins the election. We had it under semi-control during Y2K celebrations, but just barely. By we, I also mean me personally too!

Is this what you remember?

[Jack Sprat]

44. No.

And you lost me. Who was arguing for the "domino theory"? I sure wasn't. Our incursion and withdrawal from Vietnam certainly didn't prevent the Soviets from spending 9 years of futility in Afghanistan. It busted their ass economically.

There is no disrespect meant by our soldiers dying in vain. Our soldiers are brave and courageous for the most part, unlike the wooses that send them to die for their own vanity. Do we allow more soldiers to die tomorrow to ensure that soldiers that died yesterday didn't die in vain. How about next week's soldiers, or next month's or next year's soldiers? Do we allow them to die in this debacle too, so that last year's soldiers won't have died in vain? How long can we play this media word game? This is a corporate war for profit being egged on and supported by a corporate media.

[19jet54]

47. Forrest & Trees

Apparently we view the same things differently?

Have a wonderful life!

[redqueen]

23. But... we turned a corner!

Several, in fact!

[hfojvt]

24. you have quotes but no source link

I googled "Karbala and water" and found nothing.

If this part is true, then why are we rushing to blame America (or Bush)?

"The insurgent attacks destroy any repairs of power lines and fuel lines as soon as the repairs are made."

The insurgents are destroying repairs that we are trying to make, so we should just leave and let the insurgents wreck the rest of the country?

What, are these patriotic and loyal Iraqis destroying Iraqi infrastructure as a way to hurt the occupiers? That's just nuts, and it does not sound like an argument for leaving.

[Jack Sprat]

25. You want a link. I will try to provide one.

It's an Associated Press report in Sunday's Kingsport Times News. I am not good with links, so I will just have to promise to try.

The argument for leaving is simple. We invaded a country under false pretenses. We destroyed their infrastructure. We have killed thousands. We have smeared the notion that we are a peaceful nation that respects the sovereignty of others.

Google Kingsport Times-News, Aug 5, 2007. A very conservative newspaper in a very conservative area.

Note: I am not quoting the article, entitled "Iraq's Power Grid Near Collapse". My post was my own words. If you want to question the content of my argument, then let's argue.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeHereNow]

31. I think you need to check WHO I was replying to, it wasn't you my love-

This mister, is a sister, BTW.
LOL
BHN

[Jack Sprat]

33. Uh-Ohhhhhhhhhhh

I'm so sorry, ma'am. I truly am. Please forgive me. I was clumbsy, obviously. Doctor my eyes, they need it.

[BeHereNow]

35. iznoproblem...you're not the first on either count.

Not the first to mistake one of my replies as directed to you,
and not the first to think I am a "dude," as many have called me
over my DU years...
LOL.
BHN

[hfojvt]

37. I suppose it could be propaganda

but I'm just going by the article, or the OP

""What makes Baghdad the worst place in the country is that most of the lines leading into the capital have been destroyed. That is compounded by the fact that Baghdad has limited generating capacity," al-Shimari said.

"When we fix a line, the insurgents attack it the next day," he added."

Why blame Americans for destruction done by insurgents?

I kick myself though, because I should totally have detailed knowledge about Iraq. Then I could write the ultimate LTTE and the troops would be home before Labor Day.

[Jack Sprat]

39. Because the insurgents are there because

we are there. We are there because we wanted to control the 3rd largest known oil repository in the world. The Bush administration wanted this war to gain political capital and to control the oil in this region. They also had agreed to do a favor to Saudi Arabia. Keep Iraqi oil off the market and the wells capped. This would keep the price of oil UP, since demand would stay UP. Thus, we attacked Iraq in the aftermath of 9/11 and not Saudi Arabia, who provided most of the hijackers, 15 if I recall.

All of this flies in the face of the principles that our nation has always stood for. When I grew up pledging to the flag, I had no idea that this would become a predator nation, run by corporation for corporations.

[hfojvt]

41. if you read Chomsky, "Year 501" for example or the latest

"Confessions of an economic hitman" (although I don't think it's nearly as good as Chomsky. You might see that we have been fairly predatory for a long time.

The question being 'if we leave, do the insurgents also leave (the non-Iraqi ones that is)?' These foreign insurgents do not seem to be interested in helping the Iraqi people, and Sunnis and Shias seem to be engaged in a blood feud and determined to tear Iraq apart.

[Jack Sprat]

45. When we leave

and what will occur after we leave?

President Bush-Cheney must be loving this quagmire that they led us into. They must be loving it. They dumped the shit so deep in Iraq that it lets them hold thousands of troops hostage and puts this awesome problem off on the American people and their Congress. I mean......they unloaded a giant super dump in Iraq and now they can say, "Hey suckers, how can you leave now without a total genocide?" "We got you suckers into this mess, now how can you ever get out?"

The only sane answer is diplomacy but it will require cooperation from the nations in that area, including the Iranians. This is why the citizens of this country have to take elections very seriously. If you elect a crook, an idiot or some fundamentalist freak, then you can get this nation in a world of trouble. Shit happened and now everyone has to deal with it, sadly enough.

AND...you don't flip off the United Nations and go a unilateral, pre-emptive war against anyone ever. If you do not believe in the U.N., I don't want you as president. I know that.

[Jack Sprat]

29. Link

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/05/iraq/main3134593.shtml

See if this works for you. I am no pro at linking, but you will find the story if you type this into your search bar.

[Jack Sprat]

36. Have you located the link, hfojvt?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/05/iraq/main3134593.shtml

The insurgents arrived in Iraq after we scuddled the country. I'm sorry, but that is just how it is. Not that the loyal, patriotic Iraqis (both sunni and shiite) don't want us to leave, too. Our soldiers have no way of telling just which they are encountering, especially in the night raids. They will bust down the doors of innocent families because the intel they receive is consistently wrong. That is me saying this, so don't ask me for a link. This comes from researching, which hopefully more of us will do.

[hfojvt]

38. so that makes us responsible, right?

So we live up to that responsibility by staying until we boot the insurgents back out (although I believe many of them are local militias). If it is non-American foreigners destroying Iraqi infrastructure, then the militias and the Americans have a common enemy. Although it's possible, since our main purpose seems to be to sell Iraqi assets to Western corporations that they are fighting back by destroying the assets we are trying to steal. Seems like a stupid strategery to me, if true.

[Jack Sprat]

40. No, we stay forever protecting the interests

of the corporate government. That is what the intention is. It is the people who are so upset with this entire, convaluted mess that want to prevent any further loss of life from an occupation, borne by treachery and greed. What our government has done in the name of our fathers, is a crime.

[kenny blankenship]

34. Guys who died in WWII because of mistakes made by their officers died in vain,

Guys who were sent to the wrong place at the wrong time because someone didn't read a map correctly died in vain. Guys who died in the last pointless battles, when the Fuhrer's bunker in Berlin was already a smoking ruins, died in vain. Our dead in Iraq have died of something much worse. They didn't die in vain, they were simply murdered.

They were used thoughtlessly by a madman to seize oil and territory in the middle east, in a scheme whose chances of succeeding were as small as the criminality inherent in the plan was great.

George Bush didn't just spend or misplace their lives, he shat them away.

[truth2power]

42. "Water mains going dry"..

And in the Green Zone they're sitting poolside. If that doesn't inspire hatred of the Americans I don't know what does.

[Judi Lynn]

46. Jack Sprat, I enjoyed your opening post enormously. Here's the article

in which you found your quote, very possibly:

Sunday, August 05, 2007
Iraq's nat'l power grid near collapse

STEVEN R. HURST - The Associated Press
BAGHDAD -- Iraq's power grid is on the brink of collapse because of insurgent sabotage of infrastructure, rising demand, fuel shortages and provinces that are unplugging local power stations from the national grid, officials said Saturday.

Electricity Ministry spokesman Aziz al-Shimari said power generation nationally is only meeting half the demand, and there had been four nationwide blackouts over the past two days. The shortages across the country are the worst since the summer of 2003, shortly after the U.S.-led invasion to topple Saddam Hussein, he said.

Power supplies in Baghdad have been sporadic all summer and now are down to just a few hours a day, if that. The water supply in the capital has also been severely curtailed by power blackouts and cuts that have affected pumping and filtration stations.

Karbala province south of Baghdad has been without power for three days, causing water mains to go dry in the provincial capital, the Shiite holy city of Karbala.

"We no longer need television documentaries about the Stone Age. We are actually living in it. We are in constant danger because of the filthy water and rotten food we are having," said Hazim Obeid, who sells clothing at a stall in the Karbala market.

More:
http://www.heraldextra.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=231721&Itemid=99999999

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks so much for taking the time to post this. Very meaningful.

[Jack Sprat]

48. That's it Judi

And I learned how to link for the first time. It was worth the effort. Thanks, Judi