Hey Chicken Littles: The sky is not falling...really its not.

[Perky]

The Death of American Democracy is greatly exaggerated.


Look, George Bush's actions are largely inexcusable. some would say impeachable they are not however not irreparable not even close. He has about 17 months left in office. They may well turn out to be insufferable. but we will suffer through them. We will survive these darkened skies.


I hold this truth to be self-evident: That the american experiment will endure and in fact be strengthen in this next generation rather than brought to its death.

Why?

Because the american people have overwhelming reservoir of good will, an overwhelming sense of justice. An intolerance for corruption. Are they slow to respond in the face of this egregious behavior? Yes.. but we must acknowledge that it is in large measure an overreaching in these unchartered waters post 9/11. America moves in cycles but we always ultimately wind up spiraling upwards.

We survived Gettysburg, we survived suffrage, we survived the Depression, we survived McCarthyism, We survived Jim Crow and Selma, We survived Vietnam and the loss of John and Bobby and Martin and Malcolm. We survived Chicago, We survived Kent State, We survived Watergate. We survived Reagan, We survived the 2000 election, We will survive this.

Maybe Pelosi is not your cup of tea....maybe you are pissed as hell at the seeming acquiescence to Bush's and Cheney's Strangelovian obsession.

But I am not worried. Why....not because it is not bad....but because it is all reversible.
One Democratic President, one stronger Democratic congress and we can undue every bit of what has been done. There is no Executive Order that can not be rescinded. There is no law that can not be repealed.No SIgning statement that can not be ignored.

We really ought have more faith that things will get better.

We have this going for us

A strong vibrant angry electorate.
A strong net-roots movement, if the energy can be channeled into the voting booth
A strong blogosphere which while fractured... rivals the MSM in accuracy and opinion.

We have seven strong presidential candidates actually talking and debating issues.

While the republican have something like what... 15?.... and most of their base is disgusted. While their great coalition builders: Reed, Armey, Falwell, Robertson and Delay are either, Discredited, indicted, retired or dead.

But while the GOP is on its back reeling and convulsing and we are throwing stones at our own leaders rather than working for greater majorities that could be easily be death blows to the other guys.

I think some time our expectations are too high and our visceral reaction to strident. We set ourselves up for disappointment and certainly dissatisfaction. We need to take the long view. We need to understand our history. We need to not give up hope so easily. We need positive energy to take the White House and strengthen our hold on Congress instead of trying to eviscerate fell democrats when they are trying their best to keep Bush locked down and get reelected so that we have the majorities we need


It is fully withing our grasp to undo the harm of the past eight years. We can turn this ship around. This nation has done it many many many times. But we do not do that by declaring the death of Democracy and the death of the party.


The party...warts and all, is this nation's only hope...the more we tear down our leadership the more advantage we give to the other guys. Not saying you do not have the right to be pissed. But when you became so pissed that you are blind to the historical robustness of the Great Experiment; when you want to destroy it leadership in the hopes that it will somehow save democracy... You do us more damage than good.

When we seek to break down the best hope we have of righting these atrocious wrongs, we wind up undermining the very thing we proclaim it slipping from our grasp and we so called "Democrats' will be just as responsible for the demise of Democracy as are Bush, Cheney and the NeoCon Cabal.

Channel all your anger in to enthusiasm for a particular candidate: Channel it into getting people registered to vote and to the polls. But stop wasting it by sitting behind a keyboard proclaiming that Democracy is dying.

[NotGivingUp]

1. Things will get better...once we get rid of the one-party corporatocracy that is destroying us. n/t

[BlueEyedSon]

80. In other words, never.

[King Coal]

102. Chicken Little only has to be right once.

[Perky]

118. You are absolutely right

Al we have to do is figure out what consitutes proof anf when it get measured.


For me it is January 21 2009 and who is in office. Until then I intend to do EVERYTHING I CAN to Insure there are more Democrrats in the White House and which ever Democrerat down the steeet.

[BlueEyedSon]

128. The system is rigged... don't you read Will Pitt?

[lonestarnot]

2. Perky, we've never been taken over before now.

[Perky]

5. Well then lets work to take it back rather than doing nothing but piss and moan about it!!!

:shrug:

[OzarkDem]

20. What do you propose?

A march on Dem leaders in Washington?

How do you propose we take back our party and make it fight Bush?

[Perky]

31. We need to go on the offensives

against vulnerable reublican in the Hous and Senate.

We have very small majorities in boith Houes We need a veto proof majority in the Senate. We need to flip 15 mpore Seats in the House.


We need a stronger House Majority leader.


We need A dem in the white House.....

The Democratic incumbents no that the base is pissed..... but the trughof it is they won the house by taking seats away from vulnerable moderates by fielding moderates Dems. It worked...but tbecause they sqeaked by they have to be careul when they stand for re-election for the time.... Principal has to be balanced when there is no chance for a fillibuster-proof, veto-proof coalition in the Senate.


Is it courageous no.... is it necessary to retain the seat....yes. why... because lots of liberals find it easier to sit behind their keyboards then to get their friends registered to vot and to the polls.

[Greyhound]

87. Your notion that simply replacing Republiks with Democrats will fix

anything is naive at best.

Even if your scenario were possible, highly unlikely given the corporate vote-counting cabal, we have seen the results of Democratic control, and while it was less injurious to the citizens than this gang of thugs, it did lead to the disgust that got Raygun into office.

The lesser of two evils is still evil, and until we as a people decide that we will no longer tolerate the graft and corruption that runs DC, nothing much will change the course we are on.

[dickbearton]

110. With a name like Perky what do you expect.

Raygun was the decline and Bush is the Fall. The sky is not
falling; the sky has fallen and darkness will descend over
America.

[lonestarnot]

28. Who the hell is doing nothing? Point them out to me and I'll make

some suggestions for them.

[Breeze54]

117. You are getting really annoying, "Perky"! .. n/t

[Perky]

119. Why?

[Breeze54]

122. Because, xxxxx, I resent your OP title of 'Chicken Littles"!!

It's condescending and totally unwarranted! There are many activists residing on DU.
They aren't "chicken littles" and they know their stuff! Your implying that being OUTRAGED
at the new law to spy on Americans, as some sort of silly notion, is ridiculous and insulting.

[Perky]

129. Declarations the democracy is dead is as

Chicken little as they come. It is devoid of historical perspective and lacks rational underpinnings.

That sentiment and the activist mantra that we must replace every democratic who does not see thing a uber-progressives. do it cheap, intellectually lazy and political Pablum for the infantile.

You don't have to agree with members of Congress, but one vote does not means the death od Democracy. SOme of us work tirelessly to get solid dependable Democrats in office; to gain a majority in both houses and keep it..

We hold every progressive congressional distinct in the Country. We hold many of the moderate districts....All that is left to grab is more moderate districts. To keep and hold those seats we won this past election and to do the same again this coming tilt, we are going to have to compromise in the short term in order to grow to a sustain majority in the house and gain the five or 6 seats in the Senate to undo everything the idiot on the other end of Pennsylvania ave has done.


People who do not get that and claim that they are "party" activists but can't see beyond the end of their noses do the party a disservice by saying that Democracy is over.

[Breeze54]

131. See? There you go AGAIN. preaching to the choir.

You don't get it.

Try re-framing your spiel.

[Richardo]

3. K&R

Even before you finish it. :patriot:

Thanks for the voice of reason.

[welshTerrier2]

4. strong presidential candidates debating the issues???

the key issue is democracy itself. if this is being addressed at all, it is NOT being addressed by most of the candidates in any meaningful way.

[Poiuyt]

6. You might want to finish your last sentence

And yes, we will survive. It just galls me that Bush has gotten away with it.

[hfojvt]

9. the gestapo got him before he could

:cry: :tinfoilhat: Sure, he will edit it and add something, but he's already been replaced by a pod person :hide:


I know, because it happened to me last year



but ultimately the pod rejected my Vulcan blood

Nanu nanu.

[Perky]

10. ....

:freak::freak::freak::freak::freak::freak::freak:

[Kelvin Mace]

7. I hope you are right

but as I explain in this post,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1527809&mesg_id=1527809

I feel it is already too late. We are now a police state, plain and simple.

The vast majority of the people really don't care. Behavior like this resulted in revolution two centuries ago.

Today, people simply can't be bothered. Until the economy crashes and/or conscription begins, you will not see any change. By then, it will be too late.

[Codeine]

8. Post of the month, Perky.

Post of the fuckin' YEAR for that matter. :applause: :applause: :headbang: :patriot:

Honestly, we've weathered much worse. In the end we'll be better and stronger for having faced this.

[JeffR]

11. Fine post, Perky

K & R.

[SoonerPride]

12. I'm sure the Jews said the same thing in the early 30s.

Seriously.

This ain't America anymore.

To pretend that it is is delusional.

[journalist3072]

13. Sorry, but I take a different view

I believe that once you begin to go down this slippery slope, it's extremely hard to reverse course.

And I don't think we need to kid ourselves that we are in very dangerous territory in this country, with an Administration with unprecedented powers, that is unchecked and unaccountable.

And once you grant those powers to one Administration, how do you justify not giving it to the next?

Do you really think the next President (even if it is a Democratic) is going to sign some executive order that takes aways from them, the powers just given to George W. Bush? Do you really think that even a new Democratic President will say 'I don't want these unchecked powers. I'm signing this executive order taking these powers away from me.'

Once you go down a certain road, it's hard to turn back.

The question I've been asking myself the past few days is: where is our recourse in this country?

If the Congress is now caving in to Bushie's every whim, and the courts are full of loyal Bushies, where do we go for our recourse?

[SoonerPride]

16. You pack your bags and leave. Sadly. There is no voting for change.

There is only one course and it is a train headed for a bridge that collapsed.

[Homer12]

14. The democrats have had chances already.......

....And each time they have failed. They have caved to the Republicans every-time. Last night was the worst, they basically for expedience gave away our constitutional "rights of privacy against un-reasonable government search".

The executive Branch is it's own over-seer. The gave power to people that they SAY have lied us into war for god sake.

I disagree with you. Although, I will do everything that you suggest.

But all of America's power, stolen by those who seek to dominate their view of the world on others, who care-only for power for powers sake, care noting for law or reason or logic.

History has taught us what happens when people like these get a hold of power (Hitler, Stalin, Cesar, etc....) and there is no reason for me to believe that this course is going to change anytime soon.

Democrats never understood that Rich Rethug White Men and Women see Liberals and Democrats as enemies just as much as any Muslim, Black, Mexican, or gay person. They our at WAR with us.

They hate government, they see it as the problem. We think government when yielded correctly by the constitution, can work for the good of every American.

I hope the biggest lesson, when all is said and done, people realize that Politicians and people who HATE government should never be elected INTO government.

These are dark days and their only going to get worse.

[OzarkDem]

15. Its only reversible if Dems wield power

Caving on the last few votes in Congress has been a watershed event. 2008 isn't guaranteed, a Dem victory may not be possible give the free rein Bush and the GOP have been given to commit whatever crimes they wish between now and then.

There's a lot more they will do to undermine Dem candidates before 2008 and we can't stop them.

[Perky]

38. If you really deep down believe that then I repectfully think

You need to find another website. You do harm to the Democratic party with such defeatist thoughts
Just my opinion

[peace13]

90. Wow! n/t

[redqueen]

93. LOL

I love the 'find another website' tactic.

:thumbsup:*

(*that is :sarcasm:)

[beyurslf]

17. Well said. I recall in 1999 and 2000 hearing some Republican friends

say many of the same things said about Bush on here about Clinton. They said he would refuse to leave. They said he would suspend the elections. They said he would stage an attack and declare martial law. They said he would imprison (or kill) those who question his authority.

It is always dark on the other side of the fence, I guess.

[Homer12]

22. But, Clinton did not have....

...the power that Bush does.

---------------------------------

I deem Mrs #%^%^$^$ an enemy combatant! (ship off to CIA prison)

What you want proof MR. Waxman? Well that's classified becuase we were doing some cell-phone survailence, remember you gave us that power of self-oversight.

[redqueen]

94. He had a *Dem congress* for how long?

HMMMM?

What'd he do with it?

Oh yeah, don't ask/don't tell and the CRUMBS that are given us by FMLA.

*sigh*

[LittleClarkie]

26. And they had some pretty bizarre conspiracy theories about Clinton too

that he was part of some Arkansas mafia that was drug running.

Another said that he carried a rose into one of his speeches because he was sending a message to a secret group he belonged to. Sort of an Illuminati type group I suppose. I stopped listening after a while.

I guess that's why I tend to be resistant to some of the Bush conspiracy theories, as I remember the Clinton ones, and it just looks like the flip side of the same coin to me.

[soulcore]

104. But Clinton didn't sit through the worst Terrorist Attack in History

while reading an upside-down copy of My Pet Goat, probably scared shitless that...

a: he's a moron and realized he had missed all the warnings and fucked up royaly

or

b: he got the word that the plan was underway and to hold fast until the carnage was over and he could be flown around the US like a chicken with his head cut off.

[dickbearton]

114. No, it's not always darker on the other side.

Your Republican friends are like all Republicans, either in on
the fix and crooked or not in on the fix and just plain
stupid.

[demnan]

18. I like your post, even though I only half agree with it

I believe whole heartedly in the postive action part. I still think it's a good thing to be concerned about the Constitution. That too takes activism. Everyone reading this can join the ACLU and work with them to fight to save our Constitution. That is something postive that we can do. So if you can't support a particular candidate yet, you can always put some energy there.

I believe in protesting the war and demonstrating for impeachment. Impeachment and the peace movement are pure grassroots and you can participate in your own community. It takes little money and maybe a couple of hours a week. Buy some white cardboard and some craft paint and make some signs. Pick a busy intersection. What you accomplish is that people begin to think about the issues. Sure they laugh and curse at you too, but at least you got them thinking.

I believe in any postive action anyone takes to make this a better world. You don't even have to wait till next year. We have elections this year is some areas, I'll be working to help a pro-choice one run for state Delegate in my county. I'm also doing some work for Kucinich.

[NancyBreen]

19. That's what is so good about this Nation.

Thank you for clarifying a lot of questions for me. I really have been afraid these affronts on our rights were irreversible. I like your constructive advice.

[OzarkDem]

24. They are nearly irreversible

Never in the history of our country have so few people wielded so much power. The Democratic Party's chances of winning in 2008 are getting slimmer.

There's no playbook for this one, we're in uncharted territory.

Welcome to DU. The new lemming posters here are increasing by the hour. S'ok. You can fuck up DU if you want, but there are plenty of other forums.

[Psephos]

21. Superb post.

St. Exupery said, if you wish to build a ship, don't gather lumber and screws and steam boilers. Gather people, and teach them to long for the sea.

Nothing is possible when ennui and anger hold sway. Everything is possible when a vision of a better future displaces them.

[KittyWampus]

134. there is much insight in that quote.

[JTG of the PRB]

23. The sky may NOT be falling...

... but I'm bringing my umbrella all the same.

[corkhead]

25. Bravo! I want some of what you are drinking.

I want so much to be an optimist. There hasn't been much lately to feel good about but there is no denying that what you have said here is accurate. Let's all hope that our past does predict our future...

:applause: :toast:

[tandot]

27. Posts like yours are the reason I am still here. Thanks, Perky.

:yourock:

[warren pease]

29. Actually, it *is* falling...

...and the gatekeepers to the precipice are the blow-dried idiots shilling for the status quo and the official story throughout corporate mass media. Do you realize that, if you want to find out anything useful about what's happening in your own country, you have to either look to mainstream sources not based in the US or to blogs and bulletin boards like this one.

That's the key, and that's the genius behind the corporate buy-up of just about all conventional information sources in this country. The rest of the world knows 9/11 was an inside job, and they understand it's the single overriding event that BushCo has used time and again to justify the unjustifiable.

The rest of the world knows both the 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen, but you have to go elsewhere to find out exactly how it was done (Rolling Stone excepted re RFK Jr.'s article).

The rest of the world knows Iraq is all about oil and "full-spectrum dominance," but never is heard that point of view on CNN or the rest of the infotainment purveyors. Even CNN International remains a reasonably credible news source, but we don't see most of those stories in the US.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point. Without honest scrutiny from a press dedicated to afflicting the comfortable, democracy doesn't stand a chance.

Other than that, we're just in fine fucking shape.


wp

[joeunderdog]

75. I believe your specifics are more pertinent than the OP.

:puffpiece: To much cheerleading and not enough solutions. I think that just relying on the American spirit has not served us well. We are in freefall from the Democracy that we have come to take for granted. And simply believing it isn't so plays right into their hand.

[dickbearton]

123. These perky clowns don't have a clue.

All they wont is a feel good forum.

[Gregorian]

30. I agree. But I think it's going to be a very slow process.

As I read your list of ailments we've not been killed by, I found them to be successively more and more frightening and dangerous. I'm not so sure we have even survived the last few. But of course we have.

The process was slow in getting here. Many of us took for granted what we had. And the evil goons on the other side of democracy were conniving and chipping away while we were living our lives.

How to become a more progressive nation? That's what I am trying to find an answer to. And that feels like something that only comes slowly, and usually at great sacrifice. Like an invasion and occupation. I'd like to do it without that. But Europeans know. That's why they tend to be more progressive, if I may stick my neck out and generalize that way.

This whole thing is a test. We're proving just how far Americans are willing to fall before they pull the ripcord. I hope it isn't much longer. We're running out of air space.

But I agree. There are many alert people in America. I think we've not heard from a lot of them even yet. I guess they'd be the silent progressives. Some are like my 84 year old dad, who is finally realizing just how serious this mess is. Stolen elections and all.

[ryanus]

32. "good will" didn't keep the gestapo away

yes I godwined the thread

[bigtree]

33. as a lifetime Democratic warrior

I love encouragement like this

[Mojorabbit]

34. I keep trying to tell myself that

but deep down I don't believe it. I am really really worried.

[Mind_your_head]

35. sniff*sniff*.....shit. n/t

[BlackVelvet04]

36. I lived through the Vietnam era....

and had friend after friend come back in a box. The government sucked then as it does now and all the hand wringing was a waste of time. Things felt way worse than they do now and yet life went on and I am here.

Some people are addicted to the crisis of what's happening now, what I call crisis junkies. My prescription is to take some time to look for the good things in your life and if you can't find any it's time to make some personal changes.

All we can do is what we can do and then go on and live life.

[Mind_your_head]

37. Please explain that to your "friends who came home in a box" n/t

[Snazzy]

41. what a hateful comment n/t

[JeffR]

43. I suspect, if we could hear them, most of them would say

just what BV04 said:

"All we can do is what we can do and then go on and live life."

At the end or the beginning of the day, what else can we do?

[BlackVelvet04]

47. Thank you.....

there is still wonderful things to be grateful for. Family who loves you, friends who support you. I sit on my front porch watching the birds, squirrels, rabbits and even deer playing and just being and it makes me realize that sometimes we have to just look for the joy and not dwell on the negative.

[InkAddict]

68. That's such a simplistic viewpoint

and so easy to say. Those birds, etc...are free and uncaged. Some of us here have come to a realization that we are perilously close to merely existing at "slave" status by virtue of government policies that don't offer choices that work to empower any of us or our "treasury" of freedoms to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Justice, that which safeguards those guaranteed freedoms, has been trumped by power and $$, held and maintained by those with NO altruistic goals at all, so there's very little chance that, at my age, the fruits of my labors in life, will be restored. Shall I cheer the corporate hydra that empowers continually "better" i.e, cheaper, beings that care not one bit whether I'm enjoying my being or, at the very least, care only that my abilities contribute better to their evil goals of power more than ANYTHING I can altruistically share with others - NOT! Perhaps, as you suggest, I should just find a chair at the curb and rock while I stare joyously at the birds for awhile. Tell me, just how long can I stare at them before you label me too lazy, unproductive, and incompetent to have the chair upon which I sit or how long can I sit before I'm cluttering up the street and impeding your path? Just what is your or my "earthly" value for good? I believe I've got a spiritual value, but it won't feed me, shelter me, or sew up my lacerations should I cut myself on an accidental fall on a broken bottle in the street. My front porch belongs to others now for the sake of a dead man and, I guess, to fund things in which I absolutely don't believe for which I'm so grateful - NOT! I live in Ohio-my vote was hacked by corporate megalomaniacs and PITCHED OUT! I'm angered in a way I've never been angered before, and I have no time to waste it on "considering the lillies" if I'm ever to regain a "joyous" sense of wonder in American life!

BTW, in regard to that wonderful feeling of "being" you mention, ever hear of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Under the policies of the present admin, it's not so joyous to watch Americans, fellow citizens, slip into modes of pathological survival that prompts choices that empower gross personal selfishness, violence, and lawless corruption. Persons like that need to be removed from society and continously supervised.

To reach that wondrous feeling of which you speak, one first needs the basic necessities of life, and the legal means to attain them. Without proper justice and/or access to it, we may as well give up that wondrous feeling of being and just be thankful we can "exist" as caged animals in the zoo. I suppose the "animals" so caged ARE quite thankful that zookeepers at the very least, bring their free grub and offer something that resembles healthcare, but I don't suspect they are "happy" that their natural independence to act in concert with Nature and their nature has been discounted, if not outright stolen.

Perhaps they should take their joy in knowing what great amusement and education they offer the Republican human animals that peer at them inside their compassionate conservative cages--"See children, these are Democrats."

You see, it's not all so simple when you've been betrayed by family (RW), set adrift from supportive friends, robbed of not just assets but local one's occupation in the name of "good" business, and thereby stripped of both access to justice and what was purported to be fair elections of leaders who will control the destiny of nations and often your very personal "insignificant" life!

[BlackVelvet04]

71. Yes, only you know the hardships of life.....

Let's see, I live in a red area and have virtually no friends because of it. My family is RW and think I'm from Mars. I have medical needs untended because I have a $5,000 deductible on my $600 per month insurance. I am currently unemployed. I live with 2 metal rods and 6 screws in my back with the resultant daily pain. I worked for the Kerry Campaign and suffered the disappointment. I worked for the Webb campaign and he sold us out this week IMO. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, WAH WAH WAH WAH.......I still choose to look for some good and some joy in life. You, of course, are perfectly free to wallow in your pain.

[InkAddict]

125. We have a lot in common BlackVelvet04 and

I'm not wallowing in pain every moment, just at that precise moment, I was trying to expose how much of our personal lives can be changed by bad policies that restrict, isolate, and discount our very best efforts to create a better place for our loved ones, our communities, and our country. But let's be open, honest, and allow that the fix is not so simplistic as looking on the bright side. There are huge and complicated issues that require us to look the "bad" square in the eye before we kill it with kindness.

[BlackVelvet04]

132. I am not suggesting we pretend 24/7 that life is grand

but I do think we need to take time to look for good as well. I don't think looking on the bright side is a fix for societies ills, but is necessary for our own personal mental health sometimes. We do what we can and then go on and live life and have a balance of working to change things and taking time to smell the roses.

[BlackVelvet04]

46. We did what we could do......

they knew that. They knew their friends cared. And we had to go on living and finding some kind of beauty in life. If you can't and don't you might as well be dead.

[rhett o rick]

39. Things have gotten progressively worse for the last 7 years. Tell me please

what will change that?

[Perky]

40. More Democrats in Office

A deomcrat in the WHiteHouse to undo the E.O. and the legislation.

[rhett o rick]

89. Won't help if the Democrats vote like Republicans. nm

[struggle4progress]

42. Well, if it aint exactly fallin, it do be saggin and lookin sorta structural-deficient

[bleever]

44. NGU.

Never Give Up.

:patriot:

[PretzelzRule]

45. n/t

[Usrename]

48. It's our leaders that are the whole problem.

"But while the GOP is on its back reeling and convulsing and we are throwing stones at our own leaders rather than working for greater majorities that could be easily be death blows to the other guys."

Once you can grasp what everyone is moaning and complaining about, then you'll also understand why things are nothing like the way you envision them.

We have a majority now. We do. I know it's difficult believe because there is absolutely no change in the direction that this democratic congress is taking us.

So, what makes you think winning some elections is going to change anything. The incumbent dems will still be in charge after the elections, even if we win a greater majority.

What is it, specifically, that you think will change?

[Perky]

52. We gained the House largely

by replacing moderate republicans with stong moderate Dems with slim voting margins.

Naturally they are going to be scared going into what in many cases will be rematches. We are grossly oversimplifying things when we expect this freshman class to pony up to legislation that will ultimately fail in either the Senat or will be vetoes.


A larger majority will give them some backbone although we better get used to the idea that we will be replacing more moderate republicans with stong moderate Dems with slim voting margins. But at least the sophomores will hve solidified their seat.


Look it ain't pretty...In fact re-election politics are ugly and perverse to our aims in many ways. But trying to replace moderat Dems with other moderate Dems or even progressive dems is not going to be an effective approach.

If we hond our gains and increase the nubers it will go along way to reversing everything that has beeb done.

Not what you want to hear....I am sure.....but it is the only way to do this.

[tom_paine]

49. If only this is a normal iteration of American History and not the Coming of Caesar

You might be right, though. I know most of DU would rather you were.

But you do understand there is another force at work out here: a demoralized and unsupported base.

I am one of the ones who, previously inactive, DID get up off my ass and did donate my ass off as well as work it off, especially in 2004, but also in 2002 and '06, and with the intention of doing so for the rest of my life.

In '08, it is going to be a very different matter for me. I simply cannot bring myself to bust my ass for them, anymore. And for just that reason: I can't even think of the Democratic Party Leadership as 'us' anymore, though I have been registered Democratic for almost 3 decades.

The exception being unless, perhaps, Gore, Edwards, or Clark were to receive the nomination, and even then, whatever enthusiasm and effort I will be putting into my candidate will be hindered by these feelings of disgust and lack of support from many, if not most, of the Demoractic Leadership in Congress.

Yeah, I'll vote for them because there really is no other choice, faced with True Totalitarian Evil as we are, but I couldn't even make myself work enthusiatically hard for the Dems now even if I wanted to, now, after I have just had a bellyful of of yellow bellyfuls. So sick of capitulation and surrender, of dry powder and the rewards of past gutlessness (Alito, PATRIOT Act, etc. etc. ETC.) so clearly coming back to show how, at each turn, a pricipled stand was called for...or at least for ONE of the dozens of opportunities.

You are probably correct, in that for whatever small hope we still have about possibly turning this country back from the Nazi-Bushie-Soviet-style horror that likely awaits 50 or 100 years from now (perhaps much sooner), it does indeed rest with the Democratic Leadership that, at this time, seems so unlikely to deliver on any of it.

And there is still hope. Of that there can be no mistake. The outcome of this has yet to be decided, though many think it is close to being decided, and I am one of them.

I have resisted talking about this in public boards, because I still at heart do not wish to hurt the Democratic Party and a realization that most of what you say is true.

But I cannot stand any longer the gut punches taken quitely, the toadying...for fuck's sake, he raised his voice at him and they came scurrying back like the most lickspittle of 1770 British Courtiers or Caligula's Senators to give him EVERYTHING HE WANTED.

ENOUGH! After almost SEVEN years of dry powder, I can't take it anymore!

ON EDIT: The way Gonzales CLEARLY and REPEATEDLY perjured himsef before Congress, in such a way and on video tape and contradicted by other under-oath testimony PLUSE e- and memo evidence, only to hear Biden say they can't impech Gonzales BECAUSE THERE'S NO SMOKING GUN. That is patently absurd and Orwellian. If anyone one of us had told any ONE of those lies, we'd be sitting in a cell at the end of the day, or at the very least by the end of the month. Some it seems to me that this particular kind of toadying cannot be overcome by majorities, but by having a spine in the first place.

The Dems have probably noticed my usually-reliable revenue stream dying up, but it is still too small likely to concern them, even though I guarantee that there are tens of thousands of revenue stream that, coincidentally, have begun doing the same.

Still, if those Dems hustle, they can pick up a corporate check or two that will nullify the loss of those tens of thousands of Little Nobodies.

:grr:

[Perky]

54. As usual You make escellent Points Tom...However

as I have posted in some of these subthreads. We got to our majority by running moderates against vilnerable moderates. The freshman class is politcally skittish as many will be facing the same moderat repuke in the next election.


It is unreasonable to expect that we can replace moderate Dems with more progressive ones or moderate republicans with anything other than moderate Dems. More Dems in office and a Dem in the White House is the way to undo the damage.


It will take another election cycle. ad that is not what anyone wants, but it is not nothing and we can reverse everything From FISA to this stupid war...

[tom_paine]

61. Damnit, why do these rules of frightened timidty only apply to DEMS and NOT BUSHIES?

Sorry to be so hot (it's not personally directed at you), but if you examine that one thing you see the heart of my position and why I feel that something unprecedented has gone wrong.

We can run down the list of usual suspects, complict MSM, the ability of Bushie Media to drive debate and lead the MSM by the nose, a corrupted Judiciary making Dems afraid to go to them with criminality in fear that will damage things even more when the crimnal is ruled to be legal (when Bushies do it, that is), and on and on and on...

But the fact of the reality is that all of the "political realities" of which you speak are flipped 100% when we are talking about the Royal and Loyal Bushies (for the most part, although as with Abramoff and DeLay, sometimes semi-honest prosectuors find semi-honest judges and make occasional cases against Bushies...expet that to lessen as the grip tightens).

The one thing that could explain it is the posession of the Executive Branch, but no, back in the 90s the Loyal Bushies, no doubt working at the direction of the Loyal Bushies, possessed not the Executive Branches with slim majorities (especially after '98), and yet still hijacked the National Dialogue, impeached Clinton for a BS crime in which far more criminality was performed in setting the "perjury trap" than in Clinton's indiscretion.

Even observe now, as the Bushies wield the filibuster like a club, threatening to break a record, I believe I read in terms of numbers of filibusters.

Where is the outcry now? Cue crickets chriping.

This is the REALITY of the situation, a defacto double-standard which is setting in stone, a double-standard that begins to rival the Old Soviet Union.

This is the REALITY that the Democrats face, and none of them seem really willing to address it, or even recognize it exists.

When I see that kind of urgency from them, and yes, see them acting like Bushies in 1994 EXCEPT WITH REAL CRIMES TO GET WORKED UP ABOUT and daring to start impeachment, even when they KNEW it would never work.

But they can never do that, because they fear the whole thing so often described here at DU but which I will call the whole ball of wax the Soviet-Like Double Standard.

They've got to stop fearing it and start pretending to themselves that they are Bushies in 1994, so worked up over a blow jobthat it didn't matter if they couldn't win, just prosecuting their "noble cause".

Well, NOW we have a "noble cause", and it actually is noble (which is creepy and scary, because that too is a slippery slope), which is the literal defense of the Constitution and the American Experiment if Self-Determination, started in 1776 which many and I am one of them speculate died on 12/12/2000, the day everything changed.

And if the Democrats could work up half the balls and enthusiasm of the 1994 Bushies for a prosecuting a Blow Job, but instead get worked up over MULTIPLE-FELONIES, well maybe I and the tens or hundreds of thousands like me would fell better about devoting ourselves to their cause, because we would see it as our cause.

[chknltl]

50. I agree with all your points but one which is near and dear to me

What exactly did you mean about the sky NOT falling???!!1!1!! Please tell me you were speaking metaphorically instead of meteorologically.

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

(please note: this particular DUer has his reputation to uphold!)
(btw: reccomended)

[Skidmore]

51. So when pieces of the sky are laying all around you, remind me

to tell you "I told you so."

[Perky]

55. .

I am a little suprised to see such a statement when I see an Obama Avatar. I support Obama as well but it seems to me ge very well epitomizes the message of Hope and perspective I tried to convey in the OP.

Do you see a contradiction in supprting Obama and picking p piees of a fallen sky?

Not being accusatory...just actually curious.

[Skidmore]

66. Supporting Obama is looking toward the future, but reality dictates

that we live in the present and Obama hasn't been elected yet. Right now we are dealing with the DLC aiding and abetting * and his lackeys in their enterprises. So long as we have apologists for the DLC and their corporate agenda in positions that can do actual damage now, then the sky is indeed precariously teetering and can fall. You can have hope that the reality you see about you will change. I see no inconsistency at all. I do see a certain obtuseness in the position of those who will support more of the same and tell everyone else to relax that it's just part of playing the game.

[Senator]

53. All Reversible? Our Torture Victims Might Disagree

Even our US military veteran victims.

If we don't repudiate this "in the moment," it will never fully be done.

Only Impeachment ... will do.

----

[Perky]

57. Perhaps

But impleachment does not bring back the tortured or the maimed of the dead either, :shrug:

[Senator]

62. It Can Stop The Victim Machine

And "bring back" the remnants of Our National Soul sooner rather than whenever.

Failure to impeach is complicity -- approval -- exoneration for the regime.

That can never be undone.

---

[Perry Logan]

56. I think we're experiencing an enormous, long-delayed swing to the left.

[seemslikeadream]

59. “Nemesis: The Last Days of the American Republic.”

She's present in our country right now, just waiting to make her - to carry out her divine mission



http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/27/145...

CHALMERS JOHNSON: Nemesis was the ancient Greek goddess of revenge, the punisher of hubris and arrogance in human beings. You may recall she is the one that led Narcissus to the pond and showed him his reflection, and he dove in and drowned. I chose the title, because it seems to me that she's present in our country right now, just waiting to make her -- to carry out her divine mission.

By the subtitle, I really do mean it. This is not just hype to sell books -- “The Last Days of the American Republic.” I’m here concerned with a very real, concrete problem in political analysis, namely that the political system of the United States today, history tells us, is one of the most unstable combinations there is -- that is, domestic democracy and foreign empire -- that the choices are stark. A nation can be one or the other, a democracy or an imperialist, but it can't be both. If it sticks to imperialism, it will, like the old Roman Republic, on which so much of our system was modeled, like the old Roman Republic, it will lose its democracy to a domestic dictatorship.

I’ve spent some time in the book talking about an alternative, namely that of the British Empire after World War II, in which it made the decision, not perfectly executed by any manner of means, but nonetheless made the decision to give up its empire in order to keep its democracy. It became apparent to the British quite late in the game that they could keep the jewel in their crown, India, only at the expense of administrative massacres, of which they had carried them out often in India. In the wake of the war against Nazism, which had just ended, it became, I think, obvious to the British that in order to retain their empire, they would have to become a tyranny, and they, therefore, I believe, properly chose, admirably chose to give up their empire.

As I say, they didn't do it perfectly. There were tremendous atavistic fallbacks in the 1950s in the Anglo, French, Israeli attack on Egypt; in the repression of the Kikuyu -- savage repression, really -- in Kenya; and then, of course, the most obvious and weird atavism of them all, Tony Blair and his enthusiasm for renewed British imperialism in Iraq. But nonetheless, it seems to me that the history of Britain is clear that it gave up its empire in order to remain a democracy. I believe this is something we should be discussing very hard in the United States.

......



Over the ashes of blood marched the civilized soldiers,

Over the ruins of the french fortress of a failure

Over the silent screams of the dead and the dying

Saying please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



The treaties were signed, the country was split into sections

But growing numbers of prisons were built for protection

Rapidly filling with people who called for elections

But please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



Ngo dinh diem was the puppet who danced for the power

The hero of hate who gambled on hell for his hour

Father of his country was stamped on the medals we showered

But please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



Machine gun bullets became the bloody baptizers

And the falcon copters dont care if someones the wiser

But the boy in the swamp didnt know he was killed by advisers

So please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



And fires were spitting at forests in defoliation

While the people were pressed into camps not called concentration

And the greater the victory the greater the shame of the nation

But please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



While we were watching the prisoners were tested by torture

And vicious and violent gasses maintained the order

As the finest washington minds found slogans for slaughter

But please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



Then over the border came the bay of pigs planes of persuasion

All remaining honor went up in flames of invasion

But the shattered schools never learned that its not escalation

But please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



Were teaching freedom for which they are yearning

While were dragging them down to the path of never returning

But, well condescend to talk while the cities are burning

But please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



And the evil is done in hopes that evil surrenders

But the deeds of the devil are burned too deep in the embers

And a world of hunger in vengeance will always remember

So please be reassured, we seek no wider war,

We seek no wider war.

phil ochs

[deutsey]

58. I think there is still hope, but our republic is in serious peril

I agree that we've rebounded many times in our history, and we've made lots of progress.

It's the height of pollyannaism, however, to fail to see that a very powerful and wealthy group of what FDR called "economic royalists" is consistently and quite successfully undermining our democratic republic and replacing it with a high-tech form of feudalism.

Bush may only have a limited time left in office, but he's always only been a frontman for the real interests behind what's happened since 2000. They still own and control much of our mainstream media, they are still pushing questionable electronic voting, they still have the Supreme Court (and much of our circuit courts) tilting in their favor, they will still rule in our new Gilded Age long after Bush goes on to continue living his charmed life.

I believe it is still possible to turn all this around, but it's going to take a lot of hard work. I agree that simply "sitting behind a keyboard proclaiming that Democracy is dying" is a waste. The time is for action. However, we have a looooong way to go mobilize a largely distracted and still apathetic public. And right now, I think it's far from certain that we'll prevail in my lifetime. But I hold on to the hope that we will some day. What else do I have?

[Warren Stupidity]

60. The War Party is firmly in control and won the last election.

Wake up. It really is very bad.

[Perky]

63. But not irretrievably lost.

[Warren Stupidity]

64. Irretreivably?

That is way too open ended. However I do not see much hope for the near future, absent a catasrophic collapse of the current system, for substantial change. I've already been assaulted here for 'wising for a great depression', so I'll make it clear once again that I do not 'wish' for this to occur I think it is merely a neccesary condition for change.

[B Calm]

65. The next election has been cancelled! never mind

[LeftHander]

67. Another "These are not the droids you are looking for..." post.

I for one find the term "Chicken Little" offensive.

In the light that much of what was predicted by the "Chicken Littles" over the past 8 years has come to pass....

I say pull your head out of the sand.

All the things you say to go do are being done...but when elections are fixed, war decisions made well in advance, candidates swift boated or worse...

All I know is expect that the "chicken littles" will be mostly right when come Feburary 2009, GW Bush is still President.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

69. How would you like me to call you a Pollyanna? There are many of us who you might call "Chicken

Littles" who have known in advance what state our country would be in now. We saw our candidates "selected" for us by MSM. We knew that the reasons to go to war were a pack of lies. We knew that little by little our rights would be stripped from us. We knew, we knew and we knew. And still know that if you think it's bad now, just wait. We haven't had a true Democracy in decades but it is accelerating now at break neck speed and it is being flaunted in our faces with arrogance. Saturday night was the death knell and I don't know what to do about it.

The Leadership sold us down the river Saturday night, and they are the ones who have destroyed us.

Do you have any explanations for this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1524418

[endarkenment]

70. "Always look on the bright side of life"

No of course the pollyannas have no substantial explanation for the history of events over the last two decades. They have no narrative at all that makes sense. We do, but it is a narrative that is very difficult for people to accept as, well, it isn't a whole lot of fun.

[LibertyorDeath]

72. Well there's being Perky then there's being delusional

There are 2 political parties in America.

They are

1) The Rich

2) The rest of us

and this part is fucking laughable you sound like a former Reagan speech writer
I mean really I expect to hear this kind of BS platitude on CNN...

"Because the american people have overwhelming reservoir of good will, an overwhelming sense of justice. An intolerance for corruption."

[Perky]

74. Read the rest of the post or at least the paragraph

[soulcore]

105. Amen brother (or sister)

It's not about race or religion or political affiliation.

It's all about the Benjamins.

[ananda]

73. Sorry but the sky has fallen, completely.

America is now sitting in the rubble of its former ideal.

[cascadiance]

76. Sorry, but I'm crying this morning and feel like Chicken Little...

When seeing what seems to be even more evidence of the mound of conspiracy lined up against us as talked about in this and related threads:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1529067&mesg_id=1529067

and just finding out a short time ago that one of my cats might have cancer this morning. I just racked up my credit card a few weeks ago giving radioactive iodine treatment to my other cat a few weeks ago and blew another $1000+ today. As a single guy, these two guys are my family here! I've got tears in my eyes as I type this now. :cry:

I'm wondering when it all will end and folks will be able to reassure me that the sky isn't falling...

[wiggs]

78. Sorry it's not going well Cali, hang in. nt

[saracat]

88. Ohh, Cali, I am so sorry! I too have 2 kitties and they are my "children".

I lost one of them , my Sara , to the bad food.I am out thousands of dollars for her treatment.And I ,too , feel the sky is falling.Somehow today doesn't seem to be a great day! Sigh.But we must go one.You are in my prayres.Love and light!

[zehnkatzen]

77. thanks...needed to hear that from someone...

....news has been pretty dark lately.

[Ezlivin]

79. Let's talk about this in 24 months

I think it would be instructive to compare notes in 24 months.

Those who are cynical and those who are sanguine about our future prospects should talk it over after the future arrives.

Of course if the cynical prove to have prescience, we won't be able to compare notes in 24 months....

[Perky]

85. Good point....lol

[rucky]

81. ...if you're rich. n/t

[bvar22]

82. Hey Fiddlers!

Rome really is burning!

[EFerrari]

83. Pass the rosin. n/t

[Perky]

86. So we should all get out our flame throwers rather than try and put the fire out?

[Firespirit]

84. I don't know who you're talking to

We have this going for us

A strong vibrant angry electorate.
A strong net-roots movement, if the energy can be channeled into the voting booth
A strong blogosphere which while fractured... rivals the MSM in accuracy and opinion.

We have seven strong presidential candidates actually talking and debating issues.

While the republican have something like what... 15?.... and most of their base is disgusted. While their great coalition builders: Reed, Armey, Falwell, Robertson and Delay are either, Discredited, indicted, retired or dead.

I have no idea who you're talking to, but apparently they hold highly different opinions than the rest of the world.

The electorate as I see it, based on poll data and anecdotes, is not strong and angry; it's disgusted. Bush is at historic lows, but so is Congress. The electorate is voting "No Confidence" in everything. The public perception, like it or no, is that this Congress has squandered its opportunity to effect change.

The net-roots movement is reaching the point of talking to itself. The FISA bill demonstrates that our elected officials don't listen to what we have to say. Money talks. They're more interested in the views of lobbyists.

I would sincerely hope that the blogosphere is not "rivaling" the MSM in accuracy and opinion. That's not a compliment to them if true. We do not need to become that which we despise.

You say the seven are strong candidates. Others would disagree and say that the seven, in particular the big three, are the weakest field we've had in many years, and that the childish sniping just proves it. "Debating issues" -- if the Hillary vs. Obama brawl, where neither came out looking good, is a civil debate over issues, that's depressing. Those candidates who do talk about issues rather than fluff, substance over style, don't get airtime and don't register in the polls.

Sure the GOP base are pissed off too. I suspect that 2008 will have historically low voter turnout for that very reason. But they have something that we do not have, something that's very key: a power infrastructure that they have built throughout the past six years, which we see in the reworking of every single governmental agency to further political and electoral victories for the Republican Party.

[SoonerPride]

91. Perky Pollyanna

Penny Picklebrine
Perky Puddlefish
Pillowsnail Prattlefrog
Perky Potsinkdam
Punctillious Pachyderm
Perky Powercarp

I could go on like this all day.

In fact, I just might.

[djp2]

92. What disaster will happen before the next election??

The worry is what disaster will "HAPPEN" that will cause him to use his EXTRAORDINARY powers You know something is going to happen before the next elections.

[SoonerPride]

97. Dirty bombs in San Fran and Miami, blamed on Hezbollah.

We get to cancel elections, blame Iran, continue war. Expand it to bomb Iran! Goody!

Its a lose lose lose deal for everyone!

(except Blackwater and Halliburton)

[djp2]

126. Location is the key

If I were a terrorist, Washington D.C or New York would be my goal, nothing else would cause the major disruption they want from a nuclear or dirty bomb.

If such an attack happens elsewhere, especially on the "LEFT" coast (Seattle, SanFran, LA), I will immediately suspect it is not a true terrorist attack, but another Govt. plot to further powers. Attacks in one of those cities would do little more than a "New Orleans" in real national terms.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

96. People need to quit falling for the "Conceit of the Present."

The Conceit of the Present is the tendency for a person to exaggerate the importance of historical events, dangers, etc. that happened in his/her lifetime compared to events that occurred before one was born. America will survive BushCo.

[SoonerPride]

98. In what form?

You know, when we as a species are long gone, the planet will be just fine.

It might not have much more than bacterium on it at the depths of the ocean, but the planet will be fine, until the sun expands as a red giant and swallows it whole. But that's a long ways off.

But America, the land, the place, will sure be here next week, next century, next millenium.

But America, the democratic republic, is on life fucking support. And Bush and Congress just signed the DNR.

Tick tock tick tock.

[redqueen]

99. Yeah, cause ALL the danger is ONLY from BushCo.

Chrissake.

[Unca Jim]

100. Damn.

I agree that "Chicken Little" is a pretty dismissive term for people genuinely concerned for the welfare of their country. I also agree that things are worse now than they have been for about 80 years in this country. I think it's true that we have a lot of work to do to right the horrific wrongs of the Bush administration.

Still, I also concur that too many people are overreacting. We have seen crazy differences between rich and poor in this country. Look over the 1870s-1900s. Ung. We have also seen far more oppressive Executive and Legislative madness. Look over the Alien and Sedition Acts or the Volstead Act. Yikes.

I have never understood the whole idea of equating today's nutty Executive branch with the gestapo. Unlike Germany, we have a strong Constitution with built in checks and balances that always manage to get whatever branch under control that needs to be sat on.

Of course I suppose I could just accept the inevitable and commit suicide after I denigrated anyone with actual hope for the future. :hide:

[Prophet 451]

107. What Constitution?

"Unlike Germany, we have a strong Constitution with built in checks and balances that always manage to get whatever branch under control that needs to be sat on."

In case you hadn't noticed, most of your Constitution is already gone. Rules like that only work when people play by them. When you get an Admin with zero respect for the rules and a cooperative/cowed opposition, the Constitution is no obstacle at all.

[CGrantt57]

101. You have two choices....

You can either:

A. Work to subvert the dominant paradigm; or

B. Roll over and stick your ass in the air and just keep on getting fucked.

Your call.

Regards,

[mmonk]

103. Nope.

I intend to be vigilant. Distraction is for others who follow their lead.

[Perky]

113. It is absolutely imperative that we remain vigilent...we need to guard against Hysteria.

[Prophet 451]

106. No, this time it really IS falling

"We survived Gettysburg, we survived suffrage, we survived the Depression, we survived McCarthyism, We survived Jim Crow and Selma, We survived Vietnam and the loss of John and Bobby and Martin and Malcolm. We survived Chicago, We survived Kent State, We survived Watergate. We survived Reagan, We survived the 2000 election, We will survive this."

With the possible exception of the Civil War, this is worse than ALL of them.

You can talk about an informed and angry electorate but where are they? They're sat on their asses watching American Idol. Of, they'll grumble and complain and if asked, they'll say the Bushistas are bad but they won't put down the Duff and do anything. You survived Nixon because you had an inquisitive press corp determined to get at the truth. Today, you have a mostly servile press corps in bed with the Bushistas corporate masters. Yes, the right said of Clinton that he wouldn't leave office and would declare martial law but Clinton hadn't carefully put the legislation to allow him to do so (and that's disregarding the hostile Congress).

More to the point, you are assuming that a democratic republic is the natural state, the baseline that things will inevitibly return to. This is a very American view. Your democratic republic is exceedingly fragile, it has been living on borrowed time since the very beginning and it requires careful monitoring to survive. Currently, it is dangling by it's fingernails and those of us who see it are having to put up with being told to find tinfoil hats because the rest are too bloody blind to see it.

I'm a conspiracy theorist (albeit, hopefully, a sane one). You've spent so long calling us Chicken Little (often with good reason) that you're now in denial that this time, the sky really IS fucking falling.

[MasonJar]

108. A very cogent and convincing oratory. Please, DUers, take this

very solid advice to heart. With our constant disparagement of our own party, we supply grist for the GOPer mill. Notice how phony, yet subtle, these losers are: they have begun a strategy to keep the war going. Do NOT tell me they do not market in August! Beware, dems!!!!!!!! And unite!!!!!!!!

[paparush]

109. Or, for at least 500+ more days, Cheney and Bush have access to Nukes

Bush will receive CIA briefings long after he leaves office (if he in fact does step down)just like his dear old dad.
The Bush cabal will continue to fuck the world for many years to come. They are a cancer to humanity.

[OwnedByFerrets]

111. Pure speculation........which is all any of us can do.......

I happen to think you are dead wrong. We are screwn and no amount of happy thoughts OR sticking your head in the sand is gonna change that. The middle class is being written into the history books. And NO, Im not leaving so dont tell me to.:P

[Time for change]

112. One question

Why do you think it's so important to Bush that he have the power to spy on American citizens WITHOUT having to get permission from a court that has a history of approving warrant requests at greater than a 100 to 1 ratio? Does that sound like the actions of a man who intends to give up power in less than 18 months?

[Perky]

115. I do not think he needs that power... I do not know why he wants it

I am upset that so many Dems caved to support it, but I firmaly believe that Bush will leave on time and hopefully sooner.

I suspect it was a combination of expediency and wanting to get back to the ditrict....But I really do not know.

Notwithstandinfg all that... I thin everything that has been done can be undone.

[SoonerPride]

120. Why would it be undone?

I don't want any king.

Republican or Democratic.

I want Congressional oversight.

I want judges to review domestic spying.

No executive will ever give back the power bestowed upon the office.

You are smoking wacky tobaccy if you think so.

[Perky]

127. What evidence do you have to support that conclusion???

[Time for change]

133. The evidence is simply that he has gone to great lengths to get that power

In answer to my question, why do you think he has gone to such great lengths to get that power, your answer was simply that you didn't know.

Well, if one thinks about it I think that most reasonable people would come to the conclusion that there was probably a reason for Bush to put so much effort into getting that power. The reason most certainly is not that he needs it to catch terrorists. That power already existed. Any time there was the slightest suspicion that communication might involve a terrorist, all Bush would have to do is order that the communication be intercepted, and then seek a warrant afterwards. The law provided for that, and no FISA judge would turn down such a request, and even if he did, no big deal, Bush might get his hand slapped at worst.

The reason he needed this law passed was so that he could spy on his domestic opponents. That is something that even a FISA judge wouldn't approve, so he had to get a law saying that Gonzo would make the determination of whether or not to approve it. Now he has it. Why on earth would he want something like that so badly if he's planning on giving up power in 18 months?

I'm not saying that it's a sure thing. Optimistically, I'm thinking that there's about a 25% chance that the 08 elections will be cancelled. Maybe that's because I'm overly optimistic because I'm in denial about the real possibility.

I think that anyone who dismisses the possibility out of hand has their head in the sand.

[Perky]

135. That is a theory in search of evidence

I do not fear hypotheticals. Understand that I absolutely am not defending this despicable man at all... If there was evidence that he doing domestic spying I would want him to spendthe rest of his days at Leavenworth. I am just saying there is a big leap from some Blue Dopgs extending his powere and it being the death of Democracy. A big leap without a net.

ANd even if it were true....there is no evidence that supports the conclusion that a Democratic President and COngress could not put an end to it on the afternoon of January 20, 2009. A long time to wait,,, awith potentially large risk... I choose to bide my time by working for Democratic victories rather than going around warning that we are all doomed.

[Time for change]

136. Who's warning that we're doomed?

The people you're referring to, and accusing of being chicken little, including me, are warning that aggressive action (such as impeachment) may be necessary to save our democracy. That's very different than saying we're doomed.

[Perky]

137. Noo noo You misunderstand

I ahve no tensions with thos rightfull concerned with what is going on... and the call for impeachmnet.


My OP was really about those saying that Bush will cancel or fix the next election; that the Dems have deserted the constitution; that all hope is lost.

[Time for change]

138. The possibility of Bush cancelling or fixing the next election is a real concern, as it should be

The purpose of pointing that out is not to say that all hope is lost, but to point out a real danger in the hope that steps will be taken to prevent it.

Same with pointing out that some Dems have deserted the Constitution.

[Perky]

116. dupe

[Warren DeMontague]

121. What we need is several SCOTUS appointments, with 30 year old lawyers from the ACLU, EFF, NORML,

Planned Parenthood and Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

Then we could conceivably start -start- to undo some of the damage that's been done, not just during Bush II, but over the past several decades-- to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

[depakid]

124. Sorry to tell you, but the American experiment has FAILED

and the roots run far deeper than Bush and an apathetic electorate.

It's an antiquated system of government; it's become irretrievably corrupt- and as such, lacks what political scientist Karl Deutsch called "steering mechanisms" that can adjust to "signals and feedback," or in other words, the changing conditions in the 21st Century.

These are structural problems embedded in the organic documents (the Constitution & the Bill of Rights) - and they present what are now insurmountable barriers to reform, i.e., the super-majorities required by Article VI.

No meaningful reform of the political system- no updating elections processes to include say, proportional representation- and no way to get corporate money out of the electoral, administrative and legislative processes.

Consequently, the American system is doomed to dysfunction until dramatic (and disastrous) long term events occur, which will probably cause the system to collapse- since it will not adjust to them.

(This is true of most any system, btw).

My guess is that we're seeing the very beginning of this at the moment... and somewhere not too far down the line, energy scarcity and rising costs will provide the tipping point(s).

[Perky]

130. So what would replace the "Experiment"?

[depakid]

140. What do other countries do?

Say- Canada or Australia, for example.

Only two countries in the world use the American system- Liberia and the Philippines. LOL.

It's a moot point, of course, because there'd be no way to get Constitutional Amendments ratified.

[skip fox]

139. I'm largely with you BUT . . .

"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance," as Leonard Courtney wrote.

We can surely be optimistic given the great resilience of our system, but we have to watch the politicians and corporations like a hawk.

What makes The United States work is a brilliant constitution and freedom of speech reflected both in the press and in citizen discussions . . . as those at DU!!!!

All discussions and speech about our government that are in good will (like yours) are essential to our country. (I think Michael Moore has one of the most important messages for this year with health care, by the way. I'm glad he wasn't JUST optimistic, but vigilant as well.)