Uniforms... in PUBLIC SCHOOLS!!!!!

[Race4Peace]

This is my school system:

http://www.effinghamschools.com/

http://www.effinghamschools.com/Uniform%20Policy%20Approved.doc


My uncle told me over the summer that back in the mid-60's, the Supreme Court ruled that schools cannot enforce a Dress Code Policy, much less uniforms!

I've been looking for this, but can't find it. Anybody remember it?

[JohnLocke]

1. If your uncle is thinking of Tinker v. Des Moines (1969), he's wrong in his interpertation...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_District

[Race4Peace]

10. he said something mid- not late

and he said the name, it just slipped my mind

[LeeDemWebmaster]

11. This is tricky

On one hand you should have the right to wear what you want to wear to school. On the other hand uniforms usually help parents save money while also helping students concentrate better in school.

[Race4Peace]

12. self delete

[tularetom]

2. Well sure they'd do that in the 60's

but our fearless leader is doin' away with all that hippie crapola now. Gotta have the bush youth looking sharp in their little brown shirts ya know.

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. Gee - you'd think a school district could hire a writer who knows English

and find a typist who knows how to lay things out on a page.

That is a very shittily formatted document. If it were my school district, and I were the superintendant (or chair of the school board), someone's head would be rolling for putting that piece of shit out to the public.

As to uniforms - I think they actually have a pretty decent dress code. Lots of room for flexibility, not draconian at all (though I disagree with the hair style requirements - I don't think hair color matters one whit), and it's designed to be affordable by all.

[kath]

4. I don't agree with this crap. Forcing everyone to dress alike smacks too much of the military for

my taste.
Get everybody used to being good conformist little soldiers. Cogs in the machine.

[Race4Peace]

7. today was first day of school. we all looked like nazis!

[FunkyLeprechaun]

50. So do you agree with gang members

wearing their colours in school, and likely provoking rivals in the same school into violence? It's a MAJOR distraction.

The uniform takes that all away.

From what I see here in the UK, the kids wear the uniform in school and as soon as they get home they wear their preferred clothing. It's not a problem.

[harun]

77. Uniform is better. Kids don't compete over branding that way. (n/t)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. Reductio ad absurdum.

That's like say if you don't agree with the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act then you must agree with the terrorists.

This whole "gang" excuse is a total load of crap.

[napi21]

115. That's just not true. I don't buy the gang story, but I wore a uniform

all through HS. It saves a lot of time and arguments about what your kid's going to wear to school. Eliminates the "my clothes are better than yours" battle, or the worse "embarrassment because your parents can't afford the NAME BRAND CLOTHES". Eliminates those awful back to school clothes shopping trips!

The only thing negative I can think of is that by the end of four years, you get really sick of them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

116. Well then by all means...

I haven't got a problem if people want to wear uniforms, it's making them mandatory that I've got a problem with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. I wore school uniform when growing up

look the uniforms are not the problem (they have way too many benefits for parents and kids, in the long run, even if I hated them when growing up)

The problem is the current political environment... in the current environment school uniforms are a problem as well as many other things going on in this damn society

[Selatius]

15. The real problem is what the schools aren't teaching students.

They're not teaching them to examine government critically. They're not even teaching them real history that examines critically what the US has done, especially in the third world. I don't remember a class dedicated to teaching the Bill of Rights either. Where I lived, most students voted or would have voted with the Republicans because their parents did so and because they believed in the propaganda mantra that "Republicans are for small government," which is just utter bullshit.

School uniforms are a red herring in light of these massive, structural deficiencies in our education system. Nevermind the lack of qualified teachers and chronic underfunding due to political hacks in charge.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. As I said the uniform is not the problem

and you are correct, it is what they are not teaching

But... an ignorant population is far easier to control

[Contrary1]

6. I found this:

"The debate over mandatory school uniforms has surfaced as a contentious issue in school law. As of date, the Supreme Court has not addressed the issue of school uniforms. In fact, the issue of school uniforms is a matter of first impression for all circuit court of appeals and most federal and state courts.

In an effort to promote school discipline and decrease violence, public schools are requiring that uniforms be worn by students. Public institutions across America have adopted school uniform requirements.(22) School officials credit the uniforms for a decrease in crime and an increase in scholastic performance. Opponents of school uniform policies have argued that school uniform policies run counter to the First Amendment and free expression.

Only one reported case has directly addressed the issue of school uniforms. In Phoenix Elementary Sch. Dist. No. 1 v. Green, 943 P.2d 836, 839, 120 Educ. L.R. 1170 (Ariz. Ct. App. 1997), the court upheld a mandatory school uniform policy. The dress code provided that those students who refused to comply would be given the opportunity to transfer to another school. Some students refused to comply and claimed that they were entitled to stay at the school and opt-out of the dress code because the dress code violated their First Amendment rights. They were transferred to another school in the district which did not have a dress code. They subsequently went to their former school and distributed information disparaging the dress code. Testimony was presented at trial that the uniform policy reduced clothing distractions, increased campus safety, improved school spirit, leveled socioeconomic barriers, ensured that students dress appropriately, and reduced staff and faculty time required to enforce the dress code. Moreover, the court noted that the dress code involved was adopted because it:

• Promotes a more effective climate for learning.

• Creates opportunities for self-expression.

• Increases campus safety and security.

• Fosters school unity and price.

• Eliminates "label competition".

• Ensures modest dress.

• Simplifies dressing.

• Minimizes costs to parents.

The court concluded that the dress code was reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical purposes, including promoting a conducive learning environment and securing campus safety.

Schools should have a clear and reasonable basis for their policy. Policies adopted to combat substantial dangers associated with gang activity or non-gang clothing crimes are generally going to be upheld so long as the school district can reasonably demonstrate that uniforms are needed to meet the legitimate objectives of the school. Legitimate pedagogical concerns also may support uniform policies, although such policies may be considered overbroad and unconstitutional in the absence of a disruptive school environment. School officials must establish regulations that balance the individual's freedom of expression with the public interest of quality education."

More: http://www.modrall.com/articles/article_13.html#N_15_

[kath]

16. NONE of those first few assertions have been backed up by research:

http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/uniforms.htm
The Trouble with School Uniforms

By Alfie Kohn
{excerpt}
A search for data supporting the use of uniforms turns up a single study finding that teachers and others believed students in uniforms were more successful than their peers. But this suggests nothing more than a prejudice on the part of these observers, analogous to attributing various qualities to students on the basis of race or gender.

In the absence of real research, many news stories have cited anecdotal claims, notably from Long Beach, California where school uniforms are alleged to have instantly produced positive results. However, as that district’s superintendent acknowledged to the Harvard Education Letter, programs to promote conflict resolution, peer mediation, and parental involvement have also been implemented there recently and “it is really hard to know exactly what is producing the positive effect” – assuming that a meaningful effect really does exist, and persists.

Is it even reasonable to expect uniforms to solve the problems for which they are recommended? Can violence be reduced by borrowing an idea from the military? Can class differences be smoothed over by making kids dress identically? (In any case, those very real differences ought to be addressed openly rather than camouflaged.)

And what about the pressure some students feel to dress better than their friends, which can drive parents to distraction (if not bankruptcy)? This is just a symptom of a broader social disease called competition.
{MORE}


IMHO, Kohn is one of the best writers and thinkers on education out there. Check out some of the articles on his website and his books.
I **especially* recommend his article on "character education" :

How Not to Teach Values: A Critical Look at Character Education
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/hnttv.htm

[kath]

72. Ooops - left out the key paragraph from that article:

A search for data supporting the use of uniforms turns up a single study finding that teachers and others believed students in uniforms were more successful than their peers. But this suggests nothing more than a prejudice on the part of these observers, analogous to attributing various qualities to students on the basis of race or gender.
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/uniforms.htm

[Race4Peace]

36. there are truthful contradictions to all of those eight bulletholes-

• Promotes a more effective climate for learning.

• Creates opportunities for self-expression.

• Increases campus safety and security.

• Fosters school unity and price.

• Eliminates "label competition".

• Ensures modest dress.

• Simplifies dressing.

• Minimizes costs to parents.




1: nobody is going to be there every day if uniforms are in place. the only focus is on the uniform itself, not the assignment given!

2:Uniforms do not just limit, they basically castrate any chance at personal expression to make a monotone with some odd thousand teens.

3:if someone doesn't have their shirt tail tucked in under standard procedure, it's not intended as a threat. Under uniform policy, in the winter, we have to buy sweaters to wear under our polos, FROM the school. so if someone is wearing a a trenchcoat, you're not just fucked... you're butt-fucked!

4:the only thing that from an outsider would mean school unity is we dress the same. if we're dressed differently, we are setting aside all differences and an outsider will say "huh. they are united."

5:i already went over this. who gets depressed just because they see a spoiled fuck?

6: we can police ourselves with the old dress code that was more or less a give-and-take non-veral negotiations thru the student body with administration. with uniforms, someone doesn't have to go very far to go outa bounds, unintentionally!

7:FUCK THAT! we have to change our clothing when we get out of school and go outside to play or work or relax. who will wear that all day besides a golfer?!?!?!?

8:the only way to trully minimize the cost to parents is to have the kids get it themselves, and if not, the kids aren't just getting school uniforms, but also what they would have had anyway, cuz who the blazing hell, besides a golfer, wants to wear that every day?

[FunkyLeprechaun]

51. To take my experiences for example:

"1: nobody is going to be there every day if uniforms are in place. the only focus is on the uniform itself, not the assignment given!"

In High School (no uniforms), people would talk about what others were wearing. In MN, some girls would wear tank tops in the middle of winter. Some would wear really skimpy outfits and show their underwear.

A LOT of focus on those clothes, and the uniform takes that all away

"2:Uniforms do not just limit, they basically castrate any chance at personal expression to make a monotone with some odd thousand teens."

I agree with personal expression, that's fine. However, school is a whole other story. You're there to learn, not make the school a fashion runway.

"3:if someone doesn't have their shirt tail tucked in under standard procedure, it's not intended as a threat. Under uniform policy, in the winter, we have to buy sweaters to wear under our polos, FROM the school. so if someone is wearing a a trenchcoat, you're not just fucked... you're butt-fucked!"

So you didn't have a problem with gangs in your school? I did. My school banned bandannas due to the gang culture. Even banned certain combinations of colours of clothing because of the problem.

If you allow gang members (gangs and their rivals can attend the same schools) to wear what they want, they could seek out their rivals and incite violence.

"4:the only thing that from an outsider would mean school unity is we dress the same. if we're dressed differently, we are setting aside all differences and an outsider will say "huh. they are united.""

Hmm... we had a Spirit Week to celebrate the homecoming football game. We dressed alike in the same colours! It was quite fun.

Once we got back into normalcy, the snipes about what people were wearing came back.

"5:i already went over this. who gets depressed just because they see a spoiled fuck?"

No, it encourages people who cannot afford certain pieces of clothing to spend their money foolishly in order to be in cliques. In elementary school it was "Marithe Francois Girbaud" and in high school, "Dolce and Gabbana" came into style. I was lucky to wear clothes that looked trendy that I got cheaply (I learned to be frugal).

"6: we can police ourselves with the old dress code that was more or less a give-and-take non-veral negotiations thru the student body with administration. with uniforms, someone doesn't have to go very far to go outa bounds, unintentionally!"

Tell that to the girls who wore skimpy, cleavage-bearing tank tops in the middle of a Minnesotan winter. :rofl:

"7:FUCK THAT! we have to change our clothing when we get out of school and go outside to play or work or relax. who will wear that all day besides a golfer?!?!?!?"

Can't tell you how many times in my HS career that I would have liked to wear an uniform. I would waste a lot of time in the morning trying to decide what to wear. If you wore the same thing two days in a row (not an uniform), you'd get ridiculed. An Uniform, right there, right now! It simplifies EVERYTHING.

"8:the only way to trully minimize the cost to parents is to have the kids get it themselves, and if not, the kids aren't just getting school uniforms, but also what they would have had anyway, cuz who the blazing hell, besides a golfer, wants to wear that every day?"

The answer is staring straight at you in bare-faced print. If you have a child that wants to conform to a clique in school, you'd have to be prepared to pay the amount of money that costs.

Would you rather splurge on a prom dress than a years worth of clothing the child would deem out-of-style the next school year? That's what the students do here in the UK, they wear uniforms but at the end of the school year they have a prom and get the dress/suit for the occasion.

[kath]

71. None of those assertions are backed up by research:

(I left the most important paragraph out when I quoted Kohn's articl above:
A search for data supporting the use of uniforms turns up a single study finding that teachers and others believed students in uniforms were more successful than their peers. But this suggests nothing more than a prejudice on the part of these observers, analogous to attributing various qualities to students on the basis of race or gender.

In the absence of real research, many news stories have cited anecdotal claims, notably from Long Beach, California where school uniforms are alleged to have instantly produced positive results. However, as that district’s superintendent acknowledged to the Harvard Education Letter, programs to promote conflict resolution, peer mediation, and parental involvement have also been implemented there recently and “it is really hard to know exactly what is producing the positive effect” – assuming that a meaningful effect really does exist, and persists.

Is it even reasonable to expect uniforms to solve the problems for which they are recommended? Can violence be reduced by borrowing an idea from the military? Can class differences be smoothed over by making kids dress identically? (In any case, those very real differences ought to be addressed openly rather than camouflaged.)

And what about the pressure some students feel to dress better than their friends, which can drive parents to distraction (if not bankruptcy)? This is just a symptom of a broader social disease called competition.
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/uniforms.htm

[FunkyLeprechaun]

74. I wonder if there's research here in the UK

I think there's some schools, very rarely, here that allow their children to wear what they want. I haven't seen that. I could say, "What about the few private schools in the US (that make uniforms a requirement) versus the US uniform-less public schools?" But that wouldn't be the same as comparing a comprehensive school here versus Eton or Harrow.

If I had an uniform during my school years, it would have made the mornings much less stressful!

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. Or for that matter Mexico

where everybody wears school uniforms, well except the kids attending the American school, or Japan, or most of Europe

Why there is no national health, here is why... people in this country resist whatever seems to give others a competitive advantage

[mcctatas]

8. I am not entirely opposed to the idea...

as the parent of pre-teen girls, trying to keep them in clothes they like etc. gets really expensive. Plus clothing in schools is one of the biggest indicators of socio-economic status that often leads to "cliquish" behavior etc. Furthermore, I am not a prudish mother, but some of the things 7th grade girls wear to school don't belong anywhere but a sleazy dance bar. That all being said, if someone would have tried to get me to wear a uni after my Catholic school days, I would have flipped.....

[Matariki]

9. maybe kids should all be issued orange jumpsuits and be done with it.

(do i need the sarcasm tag, kids?)

[tomreedtoon]

14. Hey, Japanese kids wear uniforms and aren't Nazis!

In fact, if you have girls who like anime, they may even dress at science fiction conventions as Sailor Moon, Kagome or any number of girls - wearing school uniforms!

[Selatius]

13. School uniforms in public schools ARE A WASTE OF MONEY

You're forcing parents to shell out however many dollars per student to buy a whole new wardrobe for their kids so that they'll all look the same at school.

Bullshit.

The point of public education ideally should be to turn out well-rounded citizens and to ensure a safe, productive learning environment. Uniforms are superfluous in that regard, and regular dress codes already deal with racy clothing and gang insignia.

School uniform enforcement ties up resources in prosecuting relatively minor infractions such as not tucking in your shirt, resources better spent on buying new books for students or dealing with the real troublemakers at school.

[MonkeyFunk]

17. and without uniforms

the kids where what? Nothing? Free clothes?

Uniforms are cheaper for parents than buying a whole school wardrobe.

[Selatius]

19. But it's a distraction to fundamental problems with education.

You're going to start on school uniforms when the issue of deteriorating education standards merits more attention? So they look the same, doesn't mean they're going to be any better off than their parents' generation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Two separate issues

the uniforms are not unlike the uniform set of school supplies school districts require

Hey, we can all have our geometry sets, but until we decide to teach them geometry

I don't disagree that there are fundamental problems, but the school uniform, or lack off is not the problem. In fact, it can solve some of the problems, such as social competition wich can be a distraction from school work

Granted, we need to invest quite a bit more in school... hell a month of our spending in Iraq would cover a school year for every school in the country, but that is another matter altogether

As I said, I wore them. I hated them when I was going to school, but if I had kids today... I would not mind the school uniform... of course I'd demand other issues are taken care off as well, but that is another ball of wax

[seriousstan]

27. Shot down on your first argument and seamlessly moving to the next.

:rofl:

[MonkeyFunk]

30. One has little to do with the other...

I'm simply disputing the notion that uniforms are a greater cost for parents than a regular school wardrobe.

[kath]

73. Egg-zackly. See Alfie Kohn's article, "The Trouble with School Uniforms":

http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/uniforms.htm

[bleedingheart]

102. Perhaps if kids looked the same (uniform wise) they would seek to

be different where it counts...in their minds...growing intellectually and being valued for their mind ...not their designer duds and by defining who they are based on just the material...

[Race4Peace]

25. HEY! reality check:

if all you had to get for your kids were polos and khakis, youd be right. but weekends, play clothes, work clothes, formal(button up shirt)? then you add in the uniforms? fuck with it all, you'd be pissed.

[KiraBS]

84. It works in the UK, Japan, Australia

In many British Schools people get given school uniforms for free is they are asylum seekers or on a very low income. Second hand uniforms are common.
Also the basics such as black pants, white shirts and jumpers are sold at competitively low prices, parents also buy them two sizes bigger to allow for growth.

[eridani]

32. I agree

With so much of our family budget going to health care, just having to buy two uniforms and a three blouses instead of a whole wardrobe was a major boon. The grey pleated skirt and matching sweaters did alternate weeks of being worn and cleaned. I could get two or three days out of a blouse--these just had to be white or close enough, whatever style you liked.

[waiting for hope]

59. My son's school has a

uniform store where they get four vouchers a year - I have donated the clothes that he has outgrown and have been able to purchase or use the voucher when I have needed to. Not all the stores here in town readily carry what his school has designated as a uniform and it seems that everyone has a child my size so this has been helpful. Last year was the first year for uniforms, his was the only one, now two more are adapting it for the coming year. His school is a magnet - they are pulling kids from all over the county so the benefits outweigh the "free expression" argument.

[LynneSin]

110. I don't have kids but my neighbor was a low-income family

I actually drove her to JCPenney's where she had a gift card from the school specifically for school uniforms. It could only be used for specific items and it was enough money to have 2 pants and 3 shirts (JCPenney's had a further discount). By making a dress code instead of a uniform, it made it easier for parents to afford the type of clothes they needed (Khaki's and White-Collared Shirt).

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Let me disagree withthat one having worn them

and having talked with my mother about it

School uniforms are durable or should be. They also preserve other clothing for wearing outside of school

Since they are mass produced they are not that expensive, or should not be

And they actually decrease the spending on clothing, why? Let me see, designer jeans 70-90 bucks each... (and the social pressure is there), or school uniform pants, 20 bucks... for the price of one designer jean you got the three pants you need for the week

[Selatius]

28. But the poorest people are screwed even worse with the transition.

20 dollars is not much for some people, but for three or five pairs of uniform pants, that's still a sizable chunk of money for some who aren't so fortunate. The poorest students may feel resentful towards the wealthy kids or feel ridicule for their spare wardrobe, but the pain is worse when you force them to get new clothes when money was already tight.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Poor kids are also hurt by school district requirements

for certain school gear every year.

Unfortunately there is no way (currently) to get around this one

In fact, every year a local charity collects school supplies for poor school kids who cannot afford simple things like geometry sets either

[Selatius]

31. I don't remember yearly requirements such as those you mention in my district

If you complied with the dress code, you were fine. I can't think of anything in there that would require you to buy something every year, unless you're talking about sports gear and the like.

The geometry sets were bought by the school itself instead of having individuals buy them, and we often shared them, since budgets were always tight. Musical instruments were another issue though, but you could rent them from the school there or buy them, your choice.

When the school transitioned to school uniforms, there was little if any help offered to poor students in purchasing a new wardrobe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Oh but things have changed

hell you go to Office Depot and Staples and they have the school lists available for parents as I type

[Selatius]

35. I graduated in 2001. It hasn't changed since then.

There are no rotating yearly requirements as far as attire goes. I mean, they're not telling you to buy something for your uniform every year.

Edited to add: They didn't have rotating requirements before the uniforms either, and they switched to uniforms in 2000.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Again uniforms are simple to implement

and I am not thinking of rotating anything

But the local schools DO HAVE requiremnts for school supplies, have had them for years... oh for at least 20 years

[Selatius]

48. That's true, but pencils, rulers, paper, and the sort aren't as expensive.

We're not talking about spending 100 dollars for pencils and paper in a year as opposed to that much for five pairs of pants for 20 bucks a pop that are either navy blue or khaki colored. Then we add in three button-down shirts for 25 or five polo t-shirts for another 20 bucks. Add in the cost of a winter jacket, sweaters, shoes that meet uniform requirements, etc. and you're looking at something that will eat a whole lot more out of your wallet than books and notebook paper will do in a year or several.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Actually i've seen school uniforms for less than that

moreoovwe, you have checked on what kids wear and prices

you are talking of 50 dollar jeans and shirts and 120 dollar nike jordans, or the shoe of choice right now

[mondo joe]

89. Kids have to get clothes anyway. They do keep growing.

Whether you have to buy uniforms or not, you still have to buy clothes at least yearly.

[youthere]

91. I just bought school supplies for my three kids...

paper, pencils, folders, notebooks etc and only bought what was required by the district and the bill came to $147. I still have to buy them clothing and shoes because all three of them decided to take on extra inches this summer. PLUS there are still registration fees...Oy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Yep they are that expensive

hope all goes well with the little ones

[youthere]

99. Not so little anymore!

:cry:

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Well they do grow

:-)

[KitchenWitch]

103. Actually I just spent about $80 for school supplies for my daughter

That is darn close to $100 in my book.

x(

[Clark2008]

52. Either you don't have kids or yours aren't growing.

Guess what? You have to get new "school clothes" every year, ANYWAY, because children GROW.

The only people - and this may be a stretch - that might be hurt financially anymore than they would be normally are people who are poor and who's student is 17 and hasn't grown as much over the past year.

I have to buy my 8-year-old son school clothes TWICE a year - once in summer and again at Christmas - because he grows so much.

[KiraBS]

87. British Parents by school clothes a couple of sizes bigger..

All the eleven year old on their first day of High School have jumpers that are too baggy and have sleeves covering their hands and skirts or pants that need taking up.

[bleedingheart]

106. we do that here too...I buy my son's pants and shoes a bit bigger

so that he can grow into them...same for my daughter...

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. My mom did that with us too

the uniform at the start of the year was a tad big and baggy

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. Actually parents save money when their kids wear uniforms

[Mark Twain Girl]

78. For me, school uniforms saved me from a lot of humiliation

I didn't have many "everyday" clothes. I dreaded the 1-2 weeks of "uniform free" days at the end of the term, when a lot of other girls loved it. I literally made up a chart with the days I had to wear everyday clothes, and plotted out what I could wear to make it seem like I had more. The winter term was easier when a sweater helped mix and match. :)

I wore a black box pleat uniform, white blouse and knee socks. I can't say how it does or doesn't work for other people, but for me, it was a saving grace. The cliques of girls all knew who was poor and who was wealthy, but the uniform took away one of the most visible manifestations of that divide -- it helped.

[Recursion]

94. The school in my neighborhood provides the uniforms

But it's some kind of weird hybrid charter/magnet/public school that Williams liked to applaud and Fenty seems inclined to keep promoting.

In fairness, the kids are superbly well-behaved and polite.

[LynneSin]

105. So you'd prefer having kids beat-up so they can steal their Air Jordans or

ridiculed because they're the only kid who can't afford a Prada Backpack.

Trust me - school uniforms are much cheaper and removes violence and class castes from our school system.

It's alot cheaper to ask our kids to buy a few khaki pants and white-collared shirts then feeding into the kid's need to have expensive clothing to keep up with the other kids or dealing with the hurt & rejection that same kid feels if the parent can't afford to keep them up in style.

It's a cruel world in our schools - let's not make their education any harder.

BTW, Wilmington has dress codes for many of their public schools. It's based more on khakis and white-collared shirts. These are clothes that can be inexpensively found at Old Navy, K-Mart or even your local thrift store. And if your family has too little income they will help out with a shopping card to the locak JCPenney's to pick up 2 pairs of pants and 3 shirts.

[Race4Peace]

18. price is what you guys are talking about, and heres something to consider:

The pr ada strutting gestapo who started this said that those who could not afford American Eagle were having low self esteem because of those who wore it all the time. I AM NOT ONE OF THE RICH KIDS, BUT I BUY MY OWN CLOTHES AND I HAVE NEVER SPENT SO MUCH FOR BACK TO SCHOOL CLOTHING!

I mean hell, i get cheap shirts from hanes or fruit of the loom that are different colors, no $50 shirts, nothing with any writing or design for an extra tenner. just the $3 tees i could get ninethousand miles out of. and i'd still have some clothes leftover from the year before, so i might get a new pair of jeans mid-year.

I had to get what I usually do, PLUS $60 worth of polos and a $100 on khakis! I have to wait till payday tomorrow to get what really matters: notebooks, pens, calculators, the real shit!

the rich are gettin' richer, the poor are gettin' poorer, and we didn't give a damn, we were dead broke already, and i laugh at the walking billboards that wear hollister and shit, cuz they paid for the clothing, the upkeep every time they wash it, and aren't getting a damn nickel for their endorsements!b

and nobody gets depressed because they see a spoiled fuck!

[knitter4democracy]

62. No, no. There are ways to do this cheaply.

Penney's has the best uniform pants--they last like they're steel or something. Check the flyers and website for sales and coupons. That's what I do. I also like their shirts. We have Meijers here, and they have good polos on sale right now, too.

Goodwill is another good place to check. People donate khakis there all the time that still have plenty of wear in them. Much cheaper and already soft. I had a lot of kids at my second school shop for their uniform stuff at the local resale shops and get good deals.

The shoes can be any kind of closed toe shoe, so that means even cheaper sneakers. The pants colors are fair, so you should be able to find blue, black, or khaki easily for not too much. Get uniform ones from Penney's, and you'd only need three pair at most (one one, one in the drawer, and one in the laundry). I had students wear the same clothes day in, day out all week long (mostly because they were too lazy to change or do their own laundry).

[bleedingheart]

104. Target sells uniforms too...

and I saw them school shopping yesterday...I only wish the public schools would adopt them...gosh it would make it so simple..

[knitter4democracy]

111. They're not bad, either.

I don't think they last as well as Penney's, but I have little ones who are rough on their clothes.

My kids were at a Catholic school last year (well, the older one for two years), and we're switching to the public school this year. I'm still buying uniform skirts (shorts built-in!) and pants for them--they last longer and wash up better.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. Wait a minute - why did you have to get what you usually get?

You are wearing a uniform now so you don't need the school clothes you would have bought if you didn't have to wear a uniform. Even if you change your clothes when you get home from school, you aren't wearing your other clothes as long and they won't wear out as fast. What's wrong with the jeans you wore last year? If you can't wear jeans to school anymore, then do you really NEED a new pair right now?

So why do you have to get what you usually get RIGHT NOW? Seems like your priorities now should be school clothes and not other clothes you don't really need.

[RB TexLa]

20. I thought many public schools used uniforms

[Freddie Stubbs]

57. They do

[BlackVelvet04]

24. how effing ridiculous..........n/t

[Quantess]

26. Wake me up when this thread is over.

:boring:

[orleans]

34. maybe you could check with your local aclu branch

years ago my cousin was kicked out of his high school in illinois because he showed up wearing overalls and refused to cut his hair.

parents banded together, a class action lawsuit was filed, and (from what i was told) the aclu picked up the case. i was also told it went to the illinois supreme court which ruled that public schools could not regulate the hair length or require boys to show up in suits and ties (or something along that line).

my mother heard this ruling on the car radio--with my cousin's name mentioned-- as she was driving to my junior high to bring me a change of clothes (i was in the office for wearing the wrong kind of shirt!)

when this was going on i was eleven & twelve years old. no one told me about this until i got older.

i was at my cousin's house when the high school called him (after they lost the case) and offered to let him back into school. he laughed and said no thanks.

i would love to know specifically what the case was called, and see the details of it. i've never been able to track it down, and my cousin died a number of years ago.

----

as for you: i would be irate if my daughter's public school had instituted a uniform dress code. i would have gone to a lawyer and taken the school to court.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

37. Your schools have gangs?

The grade school across the street started uniforms. Older kids from the nearby HS try to intimidate little kids, recruit them for gangs. Uniforms cut down on problems with gang colors. I wore uniforms in parochial school. They made it easier to get dressed, is all. Mind control? Hell, I'm not even Catholic anymore.

[roody]

38. I'm a teacher, and I love the uniforms. I wear one too.

The uniform is simply khaki bottom, white or green top. The white can be a t-shirt: 3 for 10 dollars at Penneys. Cheaper at WalMart. These are cheaper than the "uniforms" I see at middle and high school: falling down pants, requisite skin exposed between shirt and pants. Where is the creativity?

[sandnsea]

40. Aw that sucks

Dress alike. Proper language. Serene temperament. No political statements. No controversy. Cameras on every corner. Human monitored devices in England that talk at you when you litter or raise your voice.

I don't know why anybody wants to live like this.

Hey! Teacher!! Leave them kids alone!

Hang in there. :hug:

[aquart]

46. "Proper language." "Serene temperament"

You are describing a good atmosphere in which to learn the basics. Uniforms don't mean "no controversy." They mean that the controversies aren't trivial.

[sandnsea]

49. fuck that

Nah, give me a teacher who gets the class all riled up by citing the economic advantages of slavery over meager wages, or flings a piece of chalk across the room to wake someone up, or tells war stories in math class - any friggin' day of the week. All that those kind of schools produce are adults who want the same safe secure bubbleland which is the reason nobody is paying attention to what Bush is doing today. A uniform doesn't provide an invigorating learning environment - an invigorating principal does.

[LanternWaste]

55. I think there are those...

I think there are those who want less in education and more in drama and entertainment from their teachers.

But I do agree with the school uniform policies many districts have in place. Perish the student who is so one dimensional that individual expression is limited to wardrobe and music choice...

Maybe you could teach them history through hip-hop & MTV-style editing! (O-kay, that was funny to me, but I'm only on cup number two of the morning coffee...)

[democrat2thecore]

41. I LIKE Uniforms

It removes the divisions of class consciousness that comes with having (or NOT having) the "right" clothes, it reduces clothing costs for families with several kids, and finally, it sets a more serious atmosphere for learning. I like uniforms. I honestly think they should be mandatory k-12 all over the country. Time to buckle down and get serious about educating our kids and uniforms help in setting the right foundation.

[Norrin Radd]

42. My mother told me she remembered when girls weren't allowed to wear

trousers to school.

[MonkeyFunk]

43. lol

*I* remember that. My sister had to wear a skirt to elementary school.

I remember the girls wearing heavy snowpants in winter UNDER their skirts, then taking them off when they got to school.

[Norrin Radd]

44. Funny!

She probably had to do that do, living in NW Penna.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

82. Mandatory bare legs in winter? That's nuts! Were any kind of warming socks allowed? -nt

[aquart]

47. Very different. That was plain sexism.

I could work all day and night in the QC theatre, but if I got hungry, I either changed into a skirt or my boyfriend had to go to the cafeteria to get my food, I wasn't allowed in wearing jeans. He was.

I'm very happy to say I was one of the people who wore jeans the day we broke that dress code.

[knitter4democracy]

64. My stepmom didn't let me wear jeans to school until middle school.

That was in the 80's. *sigh* I hated those dress pants. What I would've done for khakis.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. My first activism

was as a high school student fighting a dress code that required girls to wear skirts or dresses.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

45. About time!

In the mid-to-late 1990s we had a problem with gang culture (banning of certain items of clothing, such as a bandanna) and suggestive clothing (the really popular Coed Naked tshirts back then). In Minnesota, I would frequently see girls wearing tank-tops in the middle of 20 below zero weather and they were also risking their health for fashion as well.

I really do think that there should be an uniform policy in the US. Less distraction, blurring the line between rich and poor, etc.

There was a series of episodes of the soap opera called Hollyoaks* that dealt with school uniforms (I think the storyline lasted 3 episodes). The character, Nancy, is quite the rebel and protests to having uniforms the last year of school. She gets her way. The grades below HAVE to wear school uniforms, except for the last year.

*Hollyoaks is a British tv show that can be seen on BBC America on cable.

[IrateCitizen]

53. As a teacher, I FULLY SUPPORT uniforms!

First off, when we are talking about "uniforms" in a public school, they aren't necessarily in the same sense as a Catholic or prep school. Rather, they are a much stricter version of a dress code. For instance, students are required to wear a pair of khaki pants and a white collared shirt. This means that students can wear a golf shirt, a short-sleeved button-down shirt, a long-sleeved button-down shirt, etc.

For those out there saying that this makes things MORE expensive for parents, you're way off base. If anything, it makes things LESS expensive, because students do not feel pressured to wear the latest styles and fashions to school.

School uniforms help place the focus for students a little more on LEARNING, where it belongs. Anything that helps me do that as a teacher, I'm completely in favor of.

[PRETZEL]

54. I agree to a certain extent

The uniforms themselves weren't that bad. My ex-wife and I sent our 2 kids through the first 8 grades in Catholic school. Fortunately most Catholic schools (at least the ones in my area) have comformed somewhat in that many now allow khaki's of the same color. They aren't requiring like they did in the past of a certain brand bought at a certain store at a certain price. They've also gotten less stringent on the shirt and tie. But what many have gone to thanks in big part to parents banding together are uniform exchanges. They became invaluable when it came to replacing uniforms that didn't fit. Our biggest expense during those years were the shoes. But don't fool yourself that the kids didn't have their cliques. The hard reality is that you can make the kids look the same but you can't make them act the same. The parish school that my kids went to covered the entire socio-economic scale and trust me everyone knew who the rich kids were and who the poor kids were. Try talking to the parent of one of the rich kids about why you need to make payments toward the cheerleading outfits (and they aren't cheap) or the soccer uniforms (yes, more than 1 and the coordinated warm up suit that they have to have to look impressive) and you'll find those same differences.

I do agree that non dress codes in public schools do place a somewhat undue burden on parents in that their kids just have to wear the latest thing. I see that in my step kids. A polo shirt from Kohls or Target just isn't the same as a polo from Abercrombie or Hollister. But that isn't that different from when we were kids. Every kid (at least most kids) wants the latest and want to be part of that crowd that has the latest. What seems to be lost at least from what I've seen is reasonableness of the parents to not buckle under that pressure and to teach their kids the value of a dollar and to live within one's means. I'm learning those lessions the hard way with my wife's kids. The lessons my ex and I have taught our kids are totally foreign concepts to my wife's kids and that I don't blame on the kids.

[femmocrat]

58. ITA!

Especially for middle school. They are continually trying to circumvent the dress code which isn't that restricive IMO. I swear the parents have no idea what their children wear to school. We are always telling them to turn offensive tee-shirts inside out, or sending them to their lockers for shoes (instead of flip-flops), or for girls to get cover-ups for low-cut tops. (Yes, middle schoolers have cleavage!)

And it isn't like they go willingly... it's always an argument. Very disruptive.

[rucky]

61. I taught at a school w/ uniforms.

and agree 100%

[knitter4democracy]

65. Me too.

The kids are still individuals. They do it with their socks, their purses, their shoes, their ties, their jewelry, their makeup, their coats, their backpacks . . .

[Mark Twain Girl]

79. Heh, I defended my own uniform experience above, but your post made me think of Adrian Mole

and I laughed.... the episode where Adrian accidentally started the "red sock" rebellion and all the other schoolchildren protested in support. They all marched about the playground singing "we shall... we shall... we shall wear red socks!"

Obviously, the show was in part lampooning the rigid British school system in more important ways than uniforms. Adrian Mole aside, if I were a teacher or a parent, I would breathe a sigh of relief for uniforms today -- especially seeing some of the fashions these days. I remember when one of the nuns when *ballistic* because a schoolmate wore aslightly off-the-shoulder Flashdance-type shirt to uniform free days, heh... I suppose that would be tame now. I'm getting old!

[knitter4democracy]

112. I had a student who'd dress like a hooker on uniform-free days.

Girls school, so go figure. Even her friends got on her for that outfit. *sigh* She technically wasn't okay with the out-of-uniform dress code, but the principal had tried dealing with her parents on stuff like that before and given up. Odd child . . .

My kids would wear argyle socks to see if they got caught (against the plain, all-one-color sock rule). Red socks were allowed on Cleveland Indians days. ;)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

96. As a teacher I totally reject uniforms.

I think they're fundamentally dumb, insult the kids' intelligence, and are a crutch for lazy, bullying teachers who can't do their job properly.

:shrug:

[knitter4democracy]

113. Thanks.

Yeah, all of my discipline problems were solved by uniforms. :eyes:

The kids get really creative on just how far they can push the code, and there are still discipline issues. You spend a lot of time telling them to tuck in their shirts, and they spend a lot of time trying to mess with which socks they can wear or what kind of jewelry they can get away with.

[rucky]

114. Tactful. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. You should see what I'm wearing.

Aren't disagreeable clothes/opinions so... disagreeable?

[rucky]

120. Your "opinion" is an insulting overgeneralization.

a.k.a. "lazy and bullying"

sorry if you fail to see the irony.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. Oh, I see the irony.

I see lots of delicious irony. It's not the irony you're seeing though.

:rofl:

[LostinVA]

56. Public schools can -- and do -- enforce dress codes and require uniforms

I think it's a good idea, and teacher friends who teach in schools who have switched to uniforms also like it. My sister loved when my niece and nephew attended a public school that required uniforms. The kids squawked at first, but then didn't have a problem with it.

[knitter4democracy]

60. You can still be an individual with uniforms.

I taught in schools with uniforms. I knew my kids right away, even from the back, no matter what. Compared to where I taught, that's a very lenient policy. You'd have all sorts of options left (for example: they don't say which kind of shoes are allowed, just closed toe, which gives you a million choices, and they don't ban jewelry or even coats and sweaters).

The students will expend a lot of energy on ways to be individuals (fancy socks, etc.) and still be the individuals they are without spending minor fortunes on dressing "just right" for their clique.

[gollygee]

63. I wouldn't have any problem with my daughter's school having uniforms

I do see both sides, but mainly I remember how much we used to compete over what clothes we wore when I was in school. And we didn't have much money growing up. I remember in jr. high my mom found these cheap jeans on sale and she bought me five pairs of them, so I looked like I was wearing the same pair of cheap non-designer jeans every day. I'm sure kids would move on to something else to be nasty about, but clothing is a big thing at those ages and taking away that target wouldn't be a bad thing.

[youthere]

97. I WISH our school district required uniforms.

It would be so much less hassle.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. Your uncle is wrong

That's why you can't find it.

[marions ghost]

70. From personal experience

I went to high school in a foreign country and getting used to the uniform was difficult at first but then I and my sibs started to appreciate it. It was so nice not to have to struggle to find enough acceptable clothes to wear as my parents couldn't afford to keep up with the expensive so-called 'designer' stuff. I think uniforms effectively end ANY kind of fashion nazism, whether gangs, rich snobs, or the stranglehold of the fashion industry.

The school uniform should not be too strict or taken to ridiculous extremes of do's and don'ts. There should be some leeway for choices and less restrictive about hair. I'd rather not see school logos emblazened everywhere, but that's a minor point. Parents and students should have a say in the design of uniforms.

School uniforms do NOT turn out conformists, either in dress or otherwise. My sibs and I are living proof of that! Not a conformist in the whole Brady bunch. There's plenty of time for creative dressing outside of school, and we took every advantage of recreational opportunities to express ourselves that way. Dress is only a superficial means of expressing one's individuality anyway. That's an excellent lesson to learn very young.

I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives.

[noonwitch]

75. Detroit schools started a uniform policy-parents like it

Uniforms are not very expensive.

I would have hated it when I was in high school, unless I had gone to Interlochen Arts Academy, in which case, I would have been proud to wear the navy knickers and blue shirts.

[Douglas Carpenter]

76. if they do that, how will anyone know whose parents make the most money?

This will completely undermine this most basic measures of self-worth that at least some children can enjoy. :cry:

[marions ghost]

81. EXCELLENT lesson

for the rich kids to learn at a young age--that self-worth isn't about clothes and toys.

This is a big gift to them that their parents aren't going to give them anytime soon. They could become more human.

[mondo joe]

83. Same way we did when I wore uniforms - shoes, and of course just knowing

what others have and don't have. It's not as if the only thing you know about each other is what you wear to school. You know what other parents drive - if they drive. What they do, where they go ion vacation, who has the best book bag or sneakers and so on.

I'm not opposed to uniforms at all, and I do think they HELP to level the playing field a BIT. But let's be clear about what they can actually do.

[Justitia]

118. You're right. I wore uniforms & the holes in my shoes gave away our financial status.

I actually had some friends anonymously leave a pair of new shoes in my locker one day, because they knew I needed them.

Thank god for uniforms, I can only imagine what I would have had to worn to school!

It also made getting ready in the morning really, really easy.

BTW, we bought our uniforms second-hand which was also a huge help.
Uniforms can be recycled.

[goodgd_yall]

80. I always like wearing my school uniform

but admittedly most of my peers hated it. I like the blazer best.

I think uniforms are a good idea because they are, in a sense, an equalizer at a time in life when peer opinion is very influential (I'm thinking junior high and high school). In addition, you don't have to figure out what to wear everyday and you don't need to buy so many clothes.

[npincus]

86. my daughter has to wear one next year (starting kindergarten)

personally, I am not thrilled. I think that the clothes one wears should be respected as personal, creative expresion. My daughter loves to dress up, wear pink and brightly colored skirts/dresses. But, she's going to respect the rules (dress code) of her school-- that is life. Unfortunately the entire public school system in my city follows a dress code; each school has thier own colors.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

90. I would have LOVED uniforms when I was in high school

My family had a lower income than most in our town, and besides that, I didn't have my own money, and the clothes my mother bought for me were 1) too few and 2) appealing to a 45-year-old, not to a teenager. I was tormented in that sneaky teen-age girl way for having so few clothes and for dressing "like a grandma."

I looked with envy at pictures of high schools in other countries, where one's family income and parental tastes had no influence on how one dressed for school.

[youthere]

98. Me too. I was teased horribly for my "hand me downs"...

A uniform would have saved me an awful lot of grief.

[bleedingheart]

101. I am with you...I would have loved a uniform....for me and my kids

we were poor..so my clothes were standard pieces that mixed and matched and we could not afford "trendy" clothes...which were only in style for one year at most..

I too was teased as a result...

Now as a parent...school shopping would be so much easier if there were uniforms...

[Lorien]

117. I'm totally with you there. My mom was so "frugal" that I only had

a pair of overalls and three shirts throughout junior high. We were middle class, but my mother fretted about money the same way her poorer depression era parents did, so everything came from the Salvation Army. I looked like a character from Hee-Haw throughout most of my school years; she would just mend my clothes with colorful patches when they became so worn that they tore! AND I wore thick glasses, braces, and had a facial deformity that made me speech impaired. At least if the schools had required uniforms my wardrobe would have been one less thing to be bullied for. As it was, it was a very unhappy and lonely childhood.

[Recursion]

92. The public middle school in my neighborhood has them

I didn't think it was an issue. Then again it's a magnet school.

I do find the argument a little funny... "these teenagers are dressing too suggestively, so let's put all the girls in plaid skirts and knee-highs..."

[LynneSin]

100. I like what they've been doing for school uniforms in some of the Wilmington Schools

It's more of a dress code: Khaki Pants (in solid colors - doesn't all have to be the same) and White shirts with a collar. They even can have skirts for girls and shorts for hotter days. And if you can't afford the outfit, there is money available to get some clothes from the local Pomeroys.

Thing is, it's a competition out there with clothing and unfortunately there is violence and ridicule for kids not wearing the right brand name or style.

I don't think schools necessarily need a uniform as much as a standard policy based on clothes you can easily and affordably find at your local store

[w8liftinglady]

108. My kids wear uniforms.Goodwill is a good place to buy them if you are low on cash

I bought almost new shirts and khakis for less than $50 for 4 sets.