To those who demand impeachment..... ....consider.....

[Harper_is_Bush]

What is preferable:

- let Bush quietly die on the vine. He is no longer respected, and is daily reaping the rewards of his inneptitude.

- Make him the mainstage show. All news will be all-day-Bush, eclipsing all else. Pundits preaching his victimization will crawl out of the woodwork to provide endless network interviews.

LET THE LITTLE FUCK FADE AWAY FOR HIS LAST YEAR, WALLOWING IN HIS PUTRID FAILURES.

IMPEACHMENT WON'T MAKE THINGS BETTER ANY QUICKER.

IT COULD ACTUALLY GET IN THE WAY OF PROGRESS.

[Peggy Day]

1. What about all the people that will die, and what if he starts a war with Iran? nt

[Harper_is_Bush]

12. Will all those people not die if impeachment proceedings begin?

Of course they will. The policy will continue until '09 regardless.

And will he have any less chance of starting a war with Iran if Impeachment proceedings begin? No.

[KharmaTrain]

151. Impeachment Didn't Stop Clinton From Military Action in Kosovo

And be assured that if boooshie is acquitted by the Senate...even if a majority vote to convict, he and the corporate media would trumpet it as a victory...making things even worse.

[TahitiNut]

2. Impeach.

[AuntPatsy]

3. No way, he needs to face his crimes, impeachment is actually too good for him, he should be in jail.

[jgraz]

4. Tell that to the families of the soldiers who will die in the next 18 months

Or the victims of the next bridge collapse/hurricane/faux terror attack.

This is not a political calculation. It's about the soul of our country. It is simply immoral for us to leave our government in the hands of criminals.

[Harper_is_Bush]

13. Ok, you're using the lives of soldiers as an argument, so do them the honor of making an argument

how is it that those soldiers won't die if impeachment proceedings begin today?

[jgraz]

42. Do you really need this explained?

Seriously?

[Harper_is_Bush]

137. I posed a straight-forward question to you. n/t

[seemslikeadream]

5. Let's open the prison doors and free all the criminals

[porphyrian]

6. Not impeaching sets precedent that the Constitution isn't as important as politics.

If we allow those in the highest positions of our government to break the law and disregard the Constitution without consequence, we help destroy everything that makes America great. Impeachment is the Constitutionally prescribed method of handling these criminals, and doing so, even if doomed to failure, goes on record and says to future generations that we were not all complicit in the death of the Republic.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. What, you practicing ransom notes, or did you just discover html codes?

Anyway, I think impeachment is a good idea regardless of whether it "won't make things better any quicker." We nead the cleansing and restoration of the balance of powers that only a full investigation, trial and (one hopes) conviction can bring. It's not just about getting rid of bush. It's about taking back the democracy. And frankly, I wouldn't trust any President of any party with the powers that have accumulated in the Executive.

[cascadiance]

120. And Damnit! We need to get congress critters on record on how they stand on the constitution....

... and their duties to protect it.

There are too many afraid to be on record for this... Either because they're afraid of how their corporate contributors will react, or their constituents will react, or worse that there is some hidden threats, blackmail or worse to be wielded if they do push for this to happen.

If they don't go for impeachment, it's going to either speak ill of our country as a whole, (if they are afraid of voter retribution), or those that are controlled by their special interest contributors, or that those that have used threats to stop this happening will have won and set an example for those in the future to follow to do the same thing or worse.

We simply HAVE to have impeachment happen, whether we succeed or not! And I would argue that if you try hard enough, you should even be able to persuade vulnerable Republicans to vote for it. That's why Nixon resigned, because he knew that was what was going to happen then, even without a Democratic supermajority in the Senate.

[stillcool]

8. Nothing is going to make anything...

better...quicker...If Nothing Is Done. do what you always do..get what you always got. No thanks.

[Berry Cool]

9. Would you have said "Let Nixon die quietly on the vine"?

Would you have been happy for him to be "the mainstage show" until January 20, 1977? All-day-Nixon? Endless network pundits preaching his victimization?

How, exactly, will impeachment get in the way of progress? How will more Bush and more Bush and more Bush help accelerate progress?

[Harper_is_Bush]

18. Impeachment would hinder the advancement of other issues, no?

Certainly.

When energy and attention focusses on something, other things suffer.

ex. global warming.

And please be honest in your posts to me...I never said anything even similar to the idea that "more Bush and more Bush" would accelerate progress. I said impeachment would impede progress. Big difference.

[Caretha]

25. Splitting friggin hairs only gets you split ends

[Lars39]

10. He's a festering sore that needs to be cut out.

If you don't, it stays infected, and will eventually kill the patient.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. It's not about bush; it's about the future

We need to make sure we never again have a monster like this as president. If we had impeached Nixon, we wouldn't have the mess we are dealing with today. So we absolutely have to impeach cheney and then bush to prevent future horrific presidencies.

[porphyrian]

15. Exactly. - n/t

[defendandprotect]

17. Exactly -- !!!! IMPEACH -- !!!!

This is about our Constitution and corruption in high office.

And as far as Nixon is concerned, he should have been in jail.

[sce56]

40. BINGO! If congress would have continued after Nixon left office more of his crimes would have been

uncovered! He would have spent time in jail and we would be better off for it today not repeating the same old mistakes...

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Glad to see you get it

[sce56]

50. I'v know that or several years, now it jumps off the history pages more loudly now!

[alfredo]

110. Even if we can't bring him to justice through impeachment and removal,

use what we uncovered for future war crime charges. He has committed crimes against humanity and should be held accountable.

[baldguy]

14. Would you let a murderer go free because it would be difficult to prosecute him?

Make no mistake: Bush just as evil as an unrepentant murderer. More so, even. He has taken our blood, treasure & freedom and used it to murder a million people.

I refuse to be an accomplice to his crimes. IMPEACHMENT IS IMPERATIVE!

[AndyA]

16. This is much bigger than just Bush.

It's about protecting the Constitution.

It's about not allowing a dangerous precedent to be set for future Presidents.

It's about holding people accountable for their actions (and their crimes).

This goes way, way past Bush.

There is nothing more important than protecting the Constitution, and that is what this is all about.

There can be NO EXCEPTIONS. Without the Constitution, there is NOTHING.

[defendandprotect]

19. If you had a son or daughter serving in Iraq, do you think you might reconsider?

We could be at war with Iran any minute --

Bush wants Israel to attack Syria -- !!!

The situation we've created in Iraq will have worldwide repercussions, in people fleeing the area, in new terrorist activity against the US -- in increasing aggression and arms.

[Harper_is_Bush]

33. No, because I seriously don't see impeachment as a means to ending Iraq sooner.

That seems to be a common assumption. You made it.

What makes you assume that?

[defendandprotect]

86. If I wanted to end the war in Iraq and bring troops home, I'd IMPEACH . . .

because it is the FIRST responsibility of any elected official -- to protect the Constitution.
Not other agendas, but the Constitution.

Second, I'd impeach in order to take away the "war president" title from Bush -- hopefully short-circuiting his many efforts to destroy the Constitution based on "terrorism" and his wars.

Third -- I'd impeach to get us out of Iraq --

I don't think that every American understands the violence that Bush has done to the Constitution --investigations for impeachment would -- let's hope -- spread that knowledge.

And, finally, for the innocent Iraqis -- more than 1.5 million of them dead now since we began this thing 20 years ago? Bombing them for years. Spreading depleted uranium all over their country.
Actually, having demolished their nation despite the Geneva Accords.

And for our own troops --

I would IMPEACH.
It doesn't have to be successful --
It doesn't have to be fast --

We simply have to make the move and have to try to save lives.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

87. Do you think Bush has committed IMPEACHABLE offenses -- ???? ????

[Patchuli]

149. It WOULD stop an attack on Iran! nt

[tnlurker]

20. The problem with that is

That there is plenty of time for him to totally screw this country for 18 more months. We need this national nightmare to end today...not in Jan 09.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

21. And the real reason for not impeaching is? nt

[Harper_is_Bush]

22. is this rhetorical?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

23. No. Simply that there is always a reason for not doing something. nt

[Harper_is_Bush]

34. Check the OP, it touches upon that. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

44. I did. That's why I'm asking.....

The OP states that maybe if we try this (sounds experimental), perhaps some good thing will happen.

Why don't WE make good things happen by getting these monsters impeached, and get it over with. No experimentation or hope needed.

[TahitiNut]

52. Here ...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/402

[Liberal In Texas]

24. BULL! We need a "mainstage show" to make an example of him, to show that this will NOT

be tolerated in future presidents. And vice-presidents.

[thegreatcause2]

26. Impeachment should be done

but the truth is he will end up spending the rest of life between Texas and Dubai, doing his version of the beavis/butt head laugh. Until then, we must suffer and vent.

[lonestarnot]

27. So fucking progress means more to you than the Constitution I take it.

Ignoring problems does not make them fucking go away.

[Harper_is_Bush]

32. You can have both.

Not impeaching him won't nulify your precious Constitution. Did you think it would?

[lonestarnot]

147. It's already null and void. Are you trying to kid?

[Patchuli]

150. You bet it's "precious" to us...

Why do outsiders always think they know better than Americans? You don't seem to understand just how important upholding our Constitution is.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. Never mind treason and war crimes. nt.

[pacalo]

29. Would it be acceptable to you that the corruption we've seen for the past 7 years

will continue with future presidencies? I'm sure you don't, but if the corruption isn't officially acknowledged & punished, then we have allowed Bush to define the presidency. Put the welcome mat out for the corruption to continue.

[Harper_is_Bush]

36. I think it's all been acknowledged. I see your point about being punished...

..and discouraging future such deeds.

I guess I'm weighing the value of that against the devalue of paralizing the Nation for several months for the sake of that fool man.

Did anyone ever say to you in school: "he's not worth it!"??

That's how I feel about Bush. He's not worth it.

[Caretha]

102. You are so disingenuous

Yeah, that's what I tell my kids....why suffer now and work a couple of jobs and try to go to college...this hard work and sacrifice isn't worth your future. There is no value in that....bleh, bleh, bleh...hurl

[Harper_is_Bush]

107. How am I disingenuous?

:wtf:

[Caretha]

114. I got the impression

that you didn't believe sacrificing for the future was worth it..but maybe you aren't disingenous and you do believe sacrificing now for the sake of the future "is worth it".

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Which is it?

[Warren Stupidity]

126. You think it's all been acknowledged?

You are out of your mind, with all due respect. Nothing has been acknowledged. Not even the obvious fact that we were flat out lied to in a deliberate campaign of deception to take us to war. Not even the obvious fact that we are systematically torturing prisoners in deliberate violation of our own laws and international treaties. Not even the obvious fact that the 4th amendment has been deliberately violated and the law broken in one or more surveillence operations that continue right now. Nothing has been acknowledged. Everything has in fact been denied, and the administration is in the midst of a complete stonewall coverup to block any and all investigations into any activities conducted by this administration over the last seven years.

[NotGivingUp]

30. this is not about just bush. impeachment is off the table because it would expose the whole can of

worms that IS our government.

[AntiFascist]

121. That's exactly it!

Too much embarassing stuff has come out already, which is why the admin and DOJ have to resort to executive and gag orders.

Right, the brilliant thing to do is to parade Bush around for another 17 months so that the world can see how totally corrupt and stupid we have become and our global reputation falls further than it has already. China may as well start selling off their American dollars since Bush will continue the process of destroying our political capital.

[H2O Man]

31. Respecfully disagree. n/t

[Caretha]

37. That's very respectful of you

HtwoOMan. I'm starting to have a hard time staying respectful to these type of posts. I'm ready to start saying....listen up "Jackass", you are either ignorant, young, naive, uneducated or a troll...take your pick. But I will try to emulate your example and hold my tongue.

PS the numeral part of my keyboard started acting up, so hence the salutation to you :)

[Harper_is_Bush]

38. Congratulations on your self control.

When I read posts like yours, I have a hard time not saying..."what is wrong with your brain? why are you unable to engage in intelligent examination?"

But hey, my hat is off to you for your brave emulation of more calm posters. I will attempt to emulate as well.

[Caretha]

39. Then try starting as in now

[Harper_is_Bush]

41. I'm being sarcastic. Your posts here are something nobody should emulate.

[Caretha]

43. Don't even go there

I have a right to my opinion and to voice it. And for you to tell people that they shouldn't emulate it...is a little presumptious on your part, especially when over ninety percent of the posters responding to your OP disagree with you vehemently, and you are the one presumptiously tell them what is "preferable".

The founders of this country, gave life, limb, and all their wealth to give us the gift of the Bill of Rights, the Constituition and the "Law of the Land".

What was preferable to them was Life or Liberty. I choose Liberty for myself, my fellow man and my children and their children, no matter how painful. I will give no less than MY ANCESTORS...and my direct ancestor wrote the Preamble to the Constitution and was the final editor of the Constitution, so don't preach to me about emulation....I know about emulation.

[Harper_is_Bush]

48. Uh...how did you think yer "right to my opinion and to voice it:" was threatened?

:wtf:

[Caretha]

95. Not actually threatened, just implied

you said in response to what I posted..."Your posts here are something nobody should emulate."

Nobody?

Gee....are we all nobodies, and who gets to decide, you? Or are we just a sounding board for what you consider "preferable"? Preferable is a very subjective term. Preferable, as in being dead or alive? We can't ask the dead American soldiers who gave their lives in Iraq for a completely unjustifiable illegal war, how they feel...I guess they prefer to be dead, because Bush is preferable somehow to being alive?...You tell me??? Or what about the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, perhaps they feel its "preferable" that they are dead also, rather than being alive with Saddam Hussein ruling THEIR country. Maybe the next dead bystanders, soldiers, citizens of the next ME country we invade on completely fabricated unjustifiable lies will feel, it's "preferable" also, just to be dead as long as Bush remains President of the most powerful nation on earth.

This is the most criminal, insane, reckless, leadership/power we've ever in the history of the United States seen, and it is killing the soul of every true honest, hardworking patriotic American aware and alive today.

This isn't a game. Let me say that once more for emphasis, this is NOT A GAME. It is now about life and death. Not in just a few "isolated remote areas of the world". Perhaps it hasn't touched you, or sunk into your psychic yet. Maybe you are incapable of feeling empathy or understanding how just living, breathing in another part of the world made you a target of some insane man's vision. Maybe it is only a game of semantics for you, I really won't presume which.

But consider this. The ways and means to make it the most devastating world crisis it could ever be, affecting every human on this planet, are in the hands of a few evil lawless men. And, I do not trust that they won't try to make it so. They are a completely "lawless and unconscionable" group of people, who are in control of the most unimaginable lethal arsenal ever invented by man....and for whatever "vision, bizarre psychosis, insane nature they possess, they're dying for others to try it out on.

Maybe it hasn't hit your "neck of the woods yet", but the way things are headed, I wouldn't bet on it. Are you willing to? Bet on it, that is? Is that what's "preferable" to you?

[Harper_is_Bush]

104. If my opinion is that nobody should emulate your position, then guess what?

That's not a threat to your free speech. I'm not assuming to "decide" what you or anyone else believes.

You've failed to explain why your "right to my opinion and to voice it" was threatened.

[Caretha]

117. Possibly you can't read

or comprehend, I'm willing to give you that. I eliminated "threatened" in the subject line of my post and used the term "implied" instead to describe your attack.

I refuse to debate issues taken off the table inorder for you to distract and avoid addressing the real context of my post. Perhaps you are "unable to engage in intelligent examination" and don't care to pit yourself against real debate and the realities that don't involve superficial semantics.

[H2O Man]

45. I'm curious:

Your profile indicates that you are living in Canada. Is that accurate?

[Gold Metal Flake]

35. The more he is investigated, the more crimes are revealed.

The public has such a short attention span. Today on Lou Dobbs, he was ecstatic that a Gallup npoll showed Bush's approval up five points. While the political analyst stated that the 5 points was within the margin of error, Lou repeated that it was five whole points and was somehow significant. It's just a quick sidestep to declare that it was because of the success of the surge, though no evedence of such success exists.

Never, never underestimate the power of the massive corporate-owned, conservative media to very quickly reabilitate Bush's image. It can, and it will.

Impeach. Now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Ok consider this

the powers he has, you expect the next president to quietly give them up?

Precedent, but what do I care?

[Harper_is_Bush]

meh. the "powers" he has are fleeting. And yes, if the next prez is a Dem I expect just that.

or the population would deal with it accordingly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. I admire your naivete

in a good way.

But you should pick up a history book or two

The theme to study is empire, and how empires behave

The reason why they are not doing any of what they should do is

... the empire will behave as an empire behaves... and the needs of the empire supercede this

The fact they are not impeaching proves to me that we have crossed the rubicon and... the next Emperor will use the powers, thank you...

Oh and rebellion... with a population that watches Idol? Good luck

[NotGivingUp]

129. great post!

it IS all about empire.

[Harper_is_Bush]

139. I didn't say anything about a rebellion. I have faith in the new powers people have today

ex. the "netroots".

I think what's naive is thinking that an understanding of the empire theme throughout history facilitates as an accurate predictor of how today's society will react down the line. It's quite obvious to me Dems are not salivating over these new "powers" and looking forward to posessing them themselves. I believe they understand how the net is focussed on this, and will seek to appease.

And I don't watch Idol. Do you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. You are really naive

Perhaps a copy of The Prince by Machiavelli might be more to your taste

Suffice it to say that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

If the dems were that concerned about the net roots, we'd see movement in a direction that many Americans desire

Instead, we see legislation that effectively shreds the Fourth Amendment

If you believe the dems will do what the net roots want them to do... I have bridge for sale, and tell you what, it will not collapse either

There are many reason why they are craven and cowrads, ranging from personal threats, yes I know they feel that way, all the way to... they will use those powers themselves when given the chance, not only against the Republicans but any who oposes the Empire

[HughMoran]

49. That's exactly how I feel as well

Bushco is the best Democratic ad there ever was - and it's cost's nothing!

[Harper_is_Bush]

53. well put. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. He has cost us nothing?

Ok, how about civil liberties

Civil rights

The country being on the verge of bankrupcy

A war in Iraq...

Damn, as another thread has this,

This ain't a sports game

[Harper_is_Bush]

57. good gawd, that's not what the poster said.

Comprehend before posting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Let me quote

Bushco is the best Democratic ad there ever was - and it's cost's nothing!

now let me repeat here

and it's cost's nothing!

What part did I miss exactly?

Given I have gotten to pay some of the cost personally, do tell me what exactly did I misunderstand?

[Harper_is_Bush]

62. You missed the concept that it costs us nothing NOT TO IMPEACH

the costs you are focussed on have already occured.

the poster was referring to the cost of keeping him around, as the topic deals with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. That is not what he said

he said it costs us nothing...

Sorry... but his writing was not that clear on it

You can take that for whatever you want

[HughMoran]

78. We don't have to pay for the advertising

I thought my intention was pretty clear...

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. And this is not a sport

Lives are at stake

So lack of action, we are paying a price, a huge price

[HughMoran]

81. I'd be all for impeachment if the Dems thought it was feasible

Perhaps they are wrong? In the mean time, Bush is helping my party to regain power in this country - I have no ability to control the Democratic congress so I will at least be hopeful that we will come out ahead in the end. Making lemonade from lemons - it's not a bad thing and I'm not a coward for trying to see something positive in this awful situation we are in as a country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. Well I'd rather put COUNTRY and CONSTITUTION

before party.

Gee, something about this oath I once took

To defend and protect the CONSTITUTION against enemies both foreign and domestic

Guess what? YOUR congress critters took the same oath.

[HughMoran]

84. Agreed

Go make them impeach Bush - I'll support you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. If you support me

you will call your congressman or woman tomorrow and tell them to sight up to Kucinish's articles against Chenney, and the bill against Gonzales

And you will also tell them, in no uncertain terms, it is time to impeach

And you will do this every week

[HughMoran]

88. I have

..and no, I won't do it every week - or ever again for that matter - I'm tired of bashing my head against the wall. I've decided to see the good in having the lamest duck in history demonstrating his failures over and over again. You get the Dems to change their fucking minds, then I will support you. I'm not strapping onto this trailer filled with boulders until the Dems bring a truck.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. Then don't complaint when the next president

regardless of party, disapoints you

[HughMoran]

92. OK

I expect to be dissapointed, but there are few people as stupid as Bush who could get elected, so all is not lost.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. An empire will do, what an empire does

study Roman History, or British history, or Spanish History... actually Persia and the Satrapies might be a better example

the dolt is the front man... and he is not that much of a dolt...

But the next one... will do what an empire requires

That river you see behind you, is the Rubicon

[HughMoran]

97. OK

Now you're throwing in the "everything but the kitchen sink" argument.

I have read words like those a thousand times here and elsewhere - doesn't change my argument. I may be worried about the future for reasons as stated above, but your words taken literally mean that even impeaching Bush can't save us either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. The choices are ours

we can still fight the Empire, or surrender

I am aware of what is going on. we are an empire

But that does not mean I won't fight it

That does not mean I will stop pestering my congress critters

Or for that matter voting, even when I know the vote doesn't count

I've lived in places that have been where the US is going... and funny thing, people kept fighitng

They didn't stop

You are the one who advocates not writing, becuase you are hitting your head against the wall, not me

[HughMoran]

71. That isn't a fair interpretation of my point

Can Bush be removed from office through impeachment?

Answer the question directly please.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. He can be impeached

Now at the moment we don't have the votes to convict, we have the votes to impeach, not to convict

We didn't have the votes in 1973 either

[HughMoran]

77. So he can't be removed through impeachment

I like him this way, no need to turn him into a martyr

Idiot moron is the best thing to happen to the Dems in years. We will reclaim our rights when we get back the Presidency.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Once again, when the first hearings on watergate started

the votes in the senate did not exist either

If the politicians back then took the same cowardly stance, Tricky Dick would have ended his term

I repeat, THEY DID NOT HAVE THE VOTES AT THE BEGINING OF THE WATERGATE SCANDAL EITHER

Do you need me to repeat this?

Or would you rather pick up a history book?

By the way, failure to impeach Reagan in 1988 cost us the White House...

And the dems are walking the same stupid line again and making the same idiotic play

[Yukari Yakumo]

113. "We didn't have the votes in 1973 either"

Yes, we did. That's why Nixon resigned.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. No we didn't, not when Watergate started

they coalessced after over a million calls, letters and faxes got to Senators and Congressmen after the Saturday Night Massacre

[Yukari Yakumo]

111. Explain to me something that is doomed to fail will fix any of that? {nt}

[Warren Stupidity]

127. 1) impeachment can pass in the house.

2) an impeachment investigation would supercede claims of executive privilege.

3) an actual public airing of the evidence agains this regime would be a vast improvement over the current situation.

4) if the evidence is outrageous enough there could in fact be the 17 defections required to convict in the senate.

Getting the truth out in the open under official auspices in an impeachment proceeding is a good start.

[Stinky The Clown]

51. I will stipulate that there will be little improvement if impeachment succeeds. However .......

.... to not impeach is to condone, on the world stage, the crimes of the last six-plus years.

I do not think we can claim an ounce or moral superiority if we do not impeach and then hold criminally accountable the heads of the cabal.

[Harper_is_Bush]

60. I couldn't disagree more...to not impeach is NOT to condone.

He can be condemned without it.

Court action can be taken against him without it.

He can be held accountable without it, in many ways and forms.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. No he can't and he wont

the next president, assuming we have one, will give him the customary pardon on his way in... and that is the end of that.

The pardon is inclusive to all crimes.

Oh and his future home in SA, has no extradition treaty with the US, nor is part of the International Court protocols.

[Stinky The Clown]

70. Bingo

And that is yet another reason to not hold back. If things go south for him, he'll scoot faster than a purse snatcher in Central Park.

[rucky]

54. Can we contain him for 16 months?

nope. more damage every day.

[Harper_is_Bush]

56. explain to me how the damage would be reduced by impeachment hearings.

All eyes would be on that stupid OJ'ish show, while Iraq continues to burn.

[AuntPatsy]

65. Don't you recall how President Clinton's power became limited once he

had to face impeachment hearings? I honestly believe it would lessen their power tremendously and in doing so our soldiers could be brought home sooner, if we continue to let him retain his present power strong holds they will not have a chance at all to come home.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. He will be frozen from filing executive orders

[rucky]

89. We've already wasted 7 months.

Let's get on with it, already.

[Generator]

61. You know what's so rich?

You have the Amnesty International symbol as your avatar. Now that's rich. Geneva conventions alone. Some day America will have a soul..but not as long as it looks the other way while the most basic human rights are nothing.

[Harper_is_Bush]

66. So, my support of Amnesty International is somehow contrary to my opinion about impeachment?

I don't dispute that Bush is guilty of human rights abuses, but I reject impeachment as the most effective response to that.

Why don't you get some friends together and launch a civil suit against him?

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Because you can't

have you been following the Plame case?

Suing federal government officers is next to impossible under CURRENT US law

[Caretha]

99. Huh????

Is there total disconnect here...or as in New Age speak cognitive dissonance. "I don't dispute that Bush is guilty of human rights abuses, but I reject impeachmenta s the most effective response to that".

Okay, I'll bite, what is the most effective response to that? Shall we tell him what a bad bad bad boy he has been....go ahead...take it from there.

[Harper_is_Bush]

140. If we're talking about human rights then International court is the best reponse.

And it never hurts to point out what a bad bad bad boy he's been as well. Amnesty does a lot of that kind of thing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. You are aware that the US is not signatory to the International

Court,

Ergo, they don't have jurisdiction

[mmonk]

68. Sorry, but I don't favor protecting this administration,

but rather the people. It's not about being quick. It's about having people in charge that are above the law. It's about us not having our rights guaranteed us in the constitution. It's about checks from living under tyranny. It's about fulfillment of an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the US of which without, WE ARE NOT A FREE PEOPLE. Dare I say to people who don't place this at the top, you frankly don't deserve your rights. I do not see any politician as a greater human being than other people who must be trusted or followed and accept any excuse of not correcting the laws broken against freedom. I do not hero worship, I have no sheep blood, and have no "good German" tendencies and my only loyalty is to the truth.

[WillyT]

72. And Thereby Giving OUR Imprimatur, That The Constitution "Is A Goddamned Piece Of Paper !!!"

Yeah... we'll look real swell in the history books... if there are any.

:wtf:

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Oh there will be

and depending who ultimately wins this fight,

whether we will look bad or worst

[OzarkDem]

75. No thanks, I love my country too much

And please note your case against impeachment got much weaker after the news in the Waxman impeachment meeting post where it was revealed Waxman himself doesn't fully understand the legal underpinnings of the Bush administration's crimes.

Fruit from the tainted tree, correct? Your case against impeachment has no merit because the opinions of Congressional leaders you're basing it on is flawed - they really don't know WTF they're doing.

[mudesi]

76. I'm tired of such cowardice

That's all it is. Cowardice.

Impeach.

[Harper_is_Bush]

109. I'm tired of such stupidity

and that's all it is.

Or maybe it should be called short-sighted ad hominem nonsense.

either or.

[WillyT]

83. And You'd Feel The Same Way If THIS Were Shit Upon ???

:shrug:

**************************************************************************************

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

**************************************************************************************

:shrug:

[Harper_is_Bush]

142. empty rhetoric.

[WillyT]

144. What... The Shitting On, Or The Document ???

:shrug:

[Harper_is_Bush]

145. Your entire post. It means nothing in the context of the topic, it's just rhetoric

.

[slipslidingaway]

91. Hey, Democrats, the Truth Matters! By Robert Parry

"In retrospect, Clinton’s tolerance of Reagan-Bush cover-ups was a lose-lose-lose – the public was denied information it needed to understand dangerous complexities in the Middle East, George W. Bush built his presidential ambitions on the nation’s fuzzy memories of his dad, and Republicans got to enact a conservative agenda...

Though sometimes the truth can hurt, Clinton and the Democrats should understand that covering up the truth can hurt even more. As Clinton’s folly with the Reagan-Bush scandals should have taught, the Democrats may hurt themselves worst of all when helping the Republicans cover up the truth."

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/051006.html

[yodermon]

93. I'll take Cheney then, n/t

[Gregorian]

96. Pretend you are an Iraqi.

Now try saying that.

Just imagine you're looking down the business end of a 50mm gun on a tank.

This is why I am not patient. It's for them. The killing. We don't have time to wait. Work out leaving after we begin impeachment and tie the administrations hands behind their backs.


Edit- And sorry. I am not piling on your original post necessarily. I know how that feels. Today was the day from hell here for me. :( I hate getting angry at DUers. And I know I didn't even have to add this. But it could help.

[Harper_is_Bush]

105. cheap rhetoric. n/t

[Gregorian]

134. There is nothing cheap about empathy.

And it would tie Bush's hands.

[Snazzy]

98. I miss more agressive kicking here at DU

But I bet it will be back as we get closer to the election.

(edit to add: meantime, such obvious flame bait are HOT topics. Have fun y'all.)

[AuntPatsy]

108. I notice this thread is getting more attention that the one I began which states the opposite,

I wonder why.

[Harper_is_Bush]

112. perhaps it makes more sense. n/t

[AuntPatsy]

119. Obviously not since most on this thread disagree with you.

[Harper_is_Bush]

138. They doth protest too much, methinks. n/t

[Kool Kitty]

100. I'm sorry, I don't agree.

This weasel and his minions are capable of doing much more damage. He and Cheney (and their little dog, Alberto, too) must go. Now.

[tuvor]

101. "Dying on the vine"? "Fading away"? The recent FISA vote says otherwise. n/t

[Yukari Yakumo]

115. Perhaps that should be an big huge indicator...

...that impeachment will fail if brought to the House floor.

Face it, he will not be convicted even if impeachment manages to pass the House. There are way too many Rethugs who'll shield him even if it means going down in flames in the long run.

In the end, what would this all accomplish? NOTHING! Bush will be made a martyr by the MSM, and the ReThug base will be reinvigorated. And perhaps President Romney in Jan. '09?

[RiverStone]

103. We must try to impeach for the sake of history!

As much I would like Shrub to fade away, he is too damn arrogant to be anything less then the decider.

I respectfully disagree Harper, regardless of timing or if we have the votes --- I believe future generations compel us to act now to impeach. Shrub and Shooter have abused the power of the Executive Branch more than any admin in our country's history. To NOT act may someday suggest to future Presidents that they too may abuse their power absolutely.

They have committed high crimes, the very act of trying to impeach - or at least voting on entering articles of impeachment via the House - will tell future generations (and the people today) that some would not stand by quietly while this corrupt administration lies, manipulates, and abuses the truth to lead us onward well into year 5 of an immoral war. Regardless of the outcome or chance of success, I want the history books to read that someone tried!

[Vidar]

122. Ah yes, those lovely old DLC talking points.

[OzarkDem]

123. Why does the DLC fear impeachment?

They're Democrats, after all, right? One would think they should support their own party when they've been spied upon by an opponent, right?

:sarcasm:

[Vidar]

130. Corporate Whores of the World Unite!

[regnaD kciN]

124. If Bush is able to leave office with his head held high...

...it will make it all the easier for future Presidents (and we know, like it or not, that some of them will be conservative Publicans) to follow in his footsteps in terms of asserting "Imperial Presidency"-style power...at all our peril.

[deutsey]

125. As I read in The Nation recently: It's not about Bush, but what condition

he's going to leave the Presidency in, i.e., the office will have unprecedented authoritarian powers concentrated in the hands of a few with no checks and balances.

It's not about going after Bush. It's about dismantling the monarchical power he has established and restoring our Republic.

[madokie]

128. Impeachment will set the record straight

explain it away if you must try
fruit on a vine has no conscience, people doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Senator]

131. Quietly Dying?!? -- He's Laughing. Laughing His Head Off

He and Rove and Dick and the rest are laughing at the oldest GOP joke in DC:

"Gosh, for a minute there I thought they might actually DO something."

The "Mainstage Show" is FAR preferable. All news, All Day Bush, All Failure, All Incompetence, All The Way to Election Day if we don't reach Resignation Day or Impeachment-Conviction Day first.

Failure to impeach is complicity -- approval -- exoneration for the regime.

Why become his firewall?

But it's not "About Him" or "About The Show."

Impeachment is about us and how well we acquit ouselves in the face of war criminals in our midst -- committing atrocities in the name of the American People without their proper consent.

Why does "our side" get to benefit from ongoing torture?

Do we have core values if we fail to ACT to defend them?

Only Impeachment ... is actually DOING.

It's the only thing that makes any sense on any level - moral, logical, political, historical, electoral -- you name it.

It is our ONLY meaningful option.

--

[RestoreGore]

132. I have to disagree on this

Impeachment will show those seeking to continue his Fascism that it will not be tolerated by the American people. This isn't about Bush but about doing what is right, because as it stands now issues are being stagnated because of him. The cancer they have injected into this Democracy must be removed. What will we tell our children? That we just decided to look the other way? This is in direct corrolation also the climate crisis and the attitude of some to just let it go because it will work itself out. That of course as we know is not true, and neither is allowing him and his cronies to continue to run roughshod over our country and our Constitution.

[mdmc]

133. can we have something instead?

I support chImpeachment because I doubt the dems are gonna give us anything worthwhile anyway. I would much rather see us fight and lose impeachment then see the rat worms support spying on mericans, paying for the war, bailing out corporations via bankruptcy revisions.

[Skidmore]

135. Not impeaching him creates a precedent as well. One in which a president

can break the law in major ways and never suffer any sanction. Of all the people who have held the office, * is exactly the kind of criminal traitor this sanction was designed for. Impeachment is a moral imperitive as far as I'm concerned. We need to not set a stage for others like him in the future.

[1776Forever]

136. Will you regret this by 2008????? There is still time for more misfit moves!!!!!

:wow: :hide: :wow:

[Uncle Joe]

141. While, I understand your logic, it's not Bush I'm so concerned about,

it's the precedent set for future administrations. If he's not held accountable for putting him self above the law and trashing the Constitution, the bar will only be set lower for whatever future administrations, we end up with.

[Patchuli]

148. Maybe if our Troops weren't in harm's way

and we didn't have Darth Cheney advocating war on Iran, maybe it would be nice to let them "wither." But not when lives hang in the balance! The repugs tried to impeach Clinton for a BJ and it would be downright traitorous of dems to let these people slide.

Sorry, don't agree.