A quick message for those that think the working poor should just "Get better jobs".

[redqueen]

BILL MOYERS: A janitor, I understand, is the fastest growing job in America, right?

BARBARA EHRENREICH: It is. And that's something to think about when we're told, "Oh, don't worry about the-- the class polarization in America and the shrinking middle class and things like that." There's-- you just have to get an education to get ahead. Get an education to get ahead when the fastest growing jobs have been in things like janitorial services and food services and, you know, home health aides.



Education doesn't guarantee much at all in this world of outsourcing, insourcing, and every other method of ensuring that the working class is screwed so the rich can make more money.

[snappyturtle]

1. Kick! n/t

[Sapere aude]

2. Not to say this isn't so but I have observed something else too.

I am 61 and have a college education. I have made more per hour than most of the people I have worked with who did not have an education. But I am looking for a new job in a different location and have had several interviews. What I notice is that even though I have a undergraduate degree it isn't enough to get hired. Employers want MBA's and CPA's just to get an entry level accountants position. I am also much older than those that interview me. I have a lot more experience than those they hire but that isn't what is important many times. I'll just have to hope I find a place with older people in charge I guess.

So even though an education doesn't get you as far as before it sure beats not having an education. And the more years the better.

[Sadie4629]

4. Accounting is one of the best fields to be in right now

Since the whole Enron fiasco, Sarbaines-Oxley (sp?) etc. companies are trying to be very careful to toe the line. My future d-i-l just got a job paying $60,000. Not too bad for a first professional job. My dh's starting salary was about $11,500 (in 1980.)

He had to learn accounting the "old way" which gave him a good feel for how the numbers work, and what seems right. He says the younger accountants seem to rely to much on whatever the computers spit out, and sometimes their numbers are way off. Have you found that to be true.

[Sapere aude]

7. When I graduated I had to do the "books" no computer.

Today many younger people don't know what the end result is they are supposed to be getting. The can do it by the numbers but if they go off track they don't realize it.

Where I work now they hired an guy with an MBA just out of school and he is supposed to advise us. He spent weeks discovering things we all ready knew months ago. He confuses the effects with the causes and doesn't have a clue what to do about solving the problems.

[Selatius]

64. An MBA is no substitute for real life on-the-job experience.

What you're observing is a guy falling on a very steep learning curve. This is why several companies I've worked with prefer to promote from the inside rather than go outside and find fresh people. The fresh people have to learn the regulations and the situation the company faces before being able to do anything, and they have to start from scratch. Depending on the environment, it can be a very long wait until the newcomer is up to speed. An MBA should be handled as a course to familiarize yourself with the theory behind it all. Work experience is only learned out in the real world, not in the classroom.

I'm not saying, however, that it's worthless to get an MBA because it can open doors that otherwise would never be open, but work experience is also important and valuable too.

[cgrindley]

133. It sure as shit is if the job requires it

an applicant without one wouldn't even get an interview. And as far as the value of experience goes... from my friends' experiences in computer science (which may or may not be relevant), those programmers who are self-taught and who know a large number of individual languages and systems and such eventually reach a level where their lack of theory holds them back. EG sure you can know how to use SAP and Oracle Tools 8 and whatnot, but if you don't have a few courses in relational database theory... eventually, you're going to top out.

[ProudDad]

136. Your last statements don't compute

"but if you don't have a few courses in relational database theory... eventually, you're going to top out."

I successfully designed and create numerous mid to large database systems for over 30 years with ZERO "courses in relational database theory"...

It's all just ones and zeros, my friend. There's nothing magical about the constricted way these subjects are presented in "school" that can't be overcome by real world experience and self-study.

You are correct that if it's someone who's just learned the ins and outs of one particular piece of software like SAP or Oracle Tools they're at a severe disadvantage. Mainly this is because they are not "educated" in software fundamentals or software design but merely know how to fill in the right blanks in the software. I'd liken them to someone at DMV who knows how to enter the right information into the right places on the form. That's data entry, not computer science.

There's NOTHING that a "university trained" computer scientist can do that a "self taught" computer scientist can't.

I'm reminded of a job I had back in the 70s. I was working with this kid on his first job after being awarded a Masters in Computer Science from Notre Dame. We had a mini-computer on-site and he was just fascinated with it.

See, during the entire 6 years of school, he'd never seen a computer and had no idea how it worked or what it looked like or how to operate one.

We had to teach him everything. It was like starting with a high-school graduate...except he had to UNLEARN a bunch of crap to get up to speed...

[cgrindley]

144. Experience from the 70s doesn't mean anything

I don't think that boomers fully understand how much the world has changed at their hands. boomers are responsible for experience no longer counting for anything.

Today, the truth of whether or not experience can overcome educational deficiences doesn't matter. Maybe it can. I have a friend, for example, who has risen to the VP level of a fortune 500 company without a college education--but it was random, an accident, a twist of fate... I have other friends who have managed to eduate themselves on theories they didn't know... but it doesn't matter. Not any more. Those people won't even be able to fill out the electronic application. In a stack of 500 applications for one job, their application will be automatically deleted, unread.

the world has changed. applicants need a raft of university degrees, enough to wallpaper an office. it's just the way it is. you boomers did this to everyone, you know. it's not Gen X's fault.

[ProudDad]

162. I'm not a boomer...

Are you a Gen X'er?

That would explain your apparent lack of knowledge of the potential power of a "critical mass" of people to change society.

Quit blaming and decide that it must be changed and help to change it!

[cgrindley]

179. Yeah, I'm pure Gen X and the world can't be changed

that was the one lesson we learned from watching old videos from the 1960s. People can talk all they want and hold the occasional 3 day rock concert, but the acid is always bad and the man always wins.

[LiberalAndProud]

181. ouch.

[book_worm]

188. yep, your pure gen X--look out for #1 and to hell with everybody else

where's my piece of the pie? where are all my goodies: computer, cell phone, great car. me, me, me, me.

[ProudDad]

197. Well, that's one (bleak) view of the 60s

from someone who wasn't there...

I was there though. I started H.S. in the 50s, went through the Eisenhower/nixon doldrums and repression. I still remember the feeling of the post-joe-mccarthy social paranoia when I entered H.S....

I remember Jim Crow. I remember riding in the back of the bus down South because as a relatively non-racist white I perceived a better class of people riding in the back of the bus.


There was a SEA CHANGE that occurred in the 60s.


In the late 50s or early 60s, the folks running this site would be at best hounded by the FBI and the House Un-American Activities Committee or at worst, arrested, tried and sent to prison.

The type of statements I make every day on this board would qualify me for a blacklist in the 50s.

We ended that. We also ended Johnson/nixon's dirty fucking little war... We had ideals, values and hope.

Please don't buy into the repuke revisionist "history" designed to make you feel impotent. We did a HELL OF A LOT in the 60s.

What you're seeing now is probably the last dying gasps of the backlash to our progress in the 60s.


The man only wins when you LET him win.

As the White Rabbit said, "Feed your head!" -- but don't feed it right-wing bullshit. Feed it with confidence and hope...

[speakclearly]

102. The Dept of labor

says that the US is facing an imminent shortage of qualified people who have "blue collar" jobs. These are skilled professions like plumbers, electricians, machinists, equipment operators, mechanics, HVAC repairmen, etc. Virtually NONE of these jobs can be sent overseas. None of these jobs require a college degree. All of these jobs pay well. Each state has a "Career and Tech Ed" office responsible for organizing such training programs and the Feds provide some "Perkins" money to help them do it. Many of the "apprentice" positions available go "begging" because students want college, rather than some blue collar tech job. So the opportunities are there, the "poor people" just don't seem to "hook up."

[redqueen]

110. "poor people"

Why's that in quotes?

[Hestia]

130. This is what we have been advising younger people to do

get these skills, learn as much as they can from older journeymen, and more than likely own their own business in say 10-15 years time. There are other jobs that will become available that the gov't won't allow to be outsourced either - like phone company & utility jobs. They are considered 'vital to our security' now.

the US is facing an imminent shortage of qualified people who have "blue collar" jobs. These are skilled professions like plumbers, electricians, machinists, equipment operators, mechanics, HVAC repairmen, etc. Virtually NONE of these jobs can be sent overseas. None of these jobs require a college degree. All of these jobs pay well. Each state has a "Career and Tech Ed" office responsible for organizing such training programs and the Feds provide some "Perkins" money to help them do it.

[ProudDad]

137. The "poor people"

are too freakin' busy trying to find their next meal or a place to sleep or are working 3 McJobs and after 80 hours of work don't have a hell of a lot of energy to find these "hook ups"...

I doubt that the "poor people" are eschewing those jobs in favor of a college career...

I don't know if you're one of those who blame the poor for their plight but your post has that feel to it...

Want to clarify? :hi:

[nxylas]

103. I did all sorts of shitty jobs before I got my current job

You'd be amazed how many of my co-workers in those jobs were qualified accountants.

[Progressive_In_NC]

138. IBM is outsourcing everything but controllers and VPs to India now

More will follow, accountants will feel the pain too.

[zanne]

95. Could it be there is a bit of "ageism" going on?

I don't think 61 is old, but alot of employers do. My sister, who is 51, in also an accountant (she was a comptroller in her last job) and she's having a very hard time even getting interviews. She had a great severance package (she's all set until Jan.) but with her lifestyle choices, she's getting nervous.

[ProudDad]

134. I ran into that same sort of thing

in the computer business over the last 10 or 15 years...

It's also called "age discrimination"...

The illogic goes, "Why should I hire an old guy for more money when I can hire a young guy and work his ass for 60-70 hours a week. Obviously, 70 hours of the young fart is worth 40 hours of the old fart..."

They ONLY look at the "costs" side of the equation, never the "quality of work" side...

[demobabe]

183. It is age discrimination and it happens a lot in the computer biz

With all the new tech companies, young people are appealing because they can work them to death without complaint... and fresh college grads are cheaper to hire because they typically don't own houses and have families to support. Additionally, a lot of tech companies promote their "corporate culture" which often comes down to a fraternity-like system of picking new friends for their current workers.

Oh, and by the way, we'll feed you all the M&Ms and Pepsi you want. Aren't we just so cool?

[ProudDad]

198. And high-caffeine cola

Don't forget the Jolt...

[Greyhound]

159. Ageism is absolutely rampant in America today.

I'm sure it varies from field to field, but if you're over 40 in IT, for example, you may as well just go start applying to security companies because there is no place for you in high tech.

[ProudDad]

199. Or do what I did

Go free-lance. It worked well from the time I was 44 until I was about 60...

Now, I'm bored with it...

I don't want to continue learning "the next best thing", especially since the best PC relational database application platform, Visual Foxpro, is just about killed by m$.

After 43 years of learning successively better application development tools, I don't want to bother learning an inferior tool. After Visual Foxpro -- everything is inferior...

[eppur_se_muova]

3. K&R. Love Barbara, love Bill. nt

[RandomKoolzip]

5. I work in food service, and just about every coworker I've known

who was born in this country had a college education. They were all cooks or servers or dishwashers because there was literally no other job available that called for their skills (not everybody wants to get an MBA, ya know - some of us have consciences) - or, alternatively, they had to hold down a food service job as "secondary" income because their "primary" job didn't pay them enough to live on.

I'm currently back in school now, hoping to complete my undergrad education while cooking at night. I'm under no illusion that my degree will help me get a better job; in fact, I'm prepared to cook the rest of my life, never getting ahead, never "pulling myself up by my bootstraps" (gag), with mountains of student loan debt over my head, barely coasting by...and really, isn't that the American Dream? :eyes:

Fiscal conservatives might do well to try to exist for six months as a night-time line cook in a restaurant. Seriously - just try it.

[redqueen]

6. Fiscal conservatives might try entering the world of reality?

Yeah, I quite agree.

I don't know where the world in their imagination comes from. I've never thought that people in certain jobs should just not expect to be paid enough to live on. Seems like a rather parastic attitude, to me.

[Sadie4629]

9. That's a big assumption--

--that people with MBAs have no consciences.

Good luck with your education, and don't give up on getting ahead. People still do, you know. You have to pick your field well. There are jobs out there, but if you're majoring in something arcane then there is a good chance you won't find a job in that field. A Bachelor's degree--in anything--used to open all kinds of doors. It no longer does. That's just a fact of life.

[RandomKoolzip]

15. Yeah, I know. People who go into engineering, science, etc. get ahead. Whoopty shit.

I'm working on getting my BA in English, then a Master's in Library and Information Science. I'll probably be a cook the rest of my life, paying off this student loan debt month by month, sometimes just above (but usually below) the poverty level.

I personally believe to my soul that it's abominable and churlish to deny those proficient in English, History, and similar fields a living. I've been on the Dean's list every semester. I've been published. I work hard at school AND at my job - I'm a damn good cook, and I usually put in MORE than my alloted time in the kitchen cleaning, prepping, and kissing the bosses' ass. Should I just resign myself to poverty? Don't you think society can be improved, or is this wage slavery shit just a "fact of life?" Why should I work as hard as I do and NOT be able to afford rent? I've been in food service for over ten years and STILL cannot earn more than ten dollars an hour.

I'm all for "personal responsibilty," but Jesus Fuckin Christ - just how much is the American underclass supposed to take before we just say "fuck it" and start organizing against this god damned system?

[hfojvt]

24. not sure about engineering

but my math degree was not worth spit. I work as a janitor. Of course I did have a 'good' job with DOD which I quit some 20 years ago, so I kinda chose poverty. But I make decent money now as a janitor. I might be able to get a job at the library or the college library, but I can make almost as much as a part-time janitor as I could as a full-time librarian, and I, for one, would rather work part-time. I consider myself retired now, at 45. Like most retired people, I am still working part-time for some extra money.
$10 an hour still seems like decent money to me, but now it has been six years since I made $8.50. Wow, time flies, and prices rise. My old temp job is probably paying more than $10 an hour. It also depends where you live.
I think what you need is more affordable housing. Even in this town, if I had to pay rent, I would not be able to make it.

[RandomKoolzip]

33. I worked as a janitor for a while, too.

I made min. wage. Surely much less than a librarian makes. Then again, I was a janitor at a supermarket - some janitors who work for establishments that have city or state contracts get a living wage. I wasn't one of them.

After I get my Master's, it's possible my starting salary (if i'm able to find a job) will be about 30 grand a year. However, because of the staudent loan debt I'll have to pay off, my earnings will probably remain where they are. But at least I won't have to work in that damn kitchen, getting cut and burned and becoming more and more depressed because I'm not using my brain.

I'll take a modicum of happiness to temper the poverty any day.

[Sadie4629]

32. Been there, done that

I also have a degree in English, magna cum laude, 1979. I have never gotten a job using my degree. The college I graduated from didn't offer majors or minors in professional writing (other than journalism) or I would have majored in that, because what I really wanted to do was to get into publishing. My proficiency in written English would have gotten me into a job as a proofreader, or something, which would have become obsolete with the advent of spell-check. It happens.

Meanwhile, proficiency in English or history (my minor, btw) doesn't put food on the table. And such skills are becoming far less important by the day, much to my dismay.

Society can and should be improved, but if dishwashers were to make $50/hour, dining out would become a luxury most cannot afford and there is a good chance that even those jobs would dry up.

At least you have a plan. Library Science may not pay what Engineering does, but there are jobs available. Good luck.

[Iris]

44. You never had to think, organize your thoughts, and communicate with others in ANY of your jobs?

I have an English degree and have been teaching writing for a few years now and it has become so clear to me how important writing and communication skills are. There are very few jobs where these skills would not come in handy. Even if you never write down a single thing, learning to organize your thoughts, and to some extent your mind, will never let you down.

[Sadie4629]

48. You don't have to have a degree in English

to be able to communicate well or organize your thoughts. Actually, most of what I've done for the past 24 years was full-time mom. The pay sucks, but the benefits are great!

[Iris]

51. Actually, my post was about writing and thinking, not English degress. And becoming literate.

And you'd be surprised how many students come to college and LEAVE college without being able to communicate or organize thoughts. I think many business majors would be much better off studying something that makes them learn to use their brains.

[Sadie4629]

56. OK. I misunderstood.

Just meant that the positions I have held didn't require a degree in English.

[Iris]

68. Most positions don't really require a degree in anything.

Of course, I'd like to think my doctor has a medical degree, and I'd like to think the bridges I drive on have been designed and maintained by a qualified engineer, but, really, most other jobs could be done after a short training period or even after reading a few books.

[Nobody]

91. It's an HR disqualification criteria

There has to be a way to weed out the riff raff from jobs that will promote them from the ranks of the riff raff. By requiring a college education for entry level jobs, you can reserve these jobs for the worthy. Everyone else must work three jobs in order to pay the rent.

/sarcasm

By hook and by crook I was able to get promoted from within to a team lead position. The job was posted and one of the requirements was a bachelor's degree (unspecified BA or BS, they didn't care, they just wanted sheepskin). I have never set one foot in a college class of any kind, not being able to afford it or the debt. I made sure that the powers that be knew that I had no college education; they didn't care.

I've also seen job postings for entry level positions requiring more years of experience with a software that didn't exist that long, programming experience in languages still being sent to beta testers, and other impossible to meet criteria.

Hint: if you're applying for a job and they want a bachelor's degree but don't care what the major is and won't specify BA or BS, they probably don't really require a bachelor's degree.

[ProudDad]

141. Check this out for HR disqualification efforts

Law Firm Video on how to hire H1-B Visa Techworkers

http://mike.mikeandandrea.us/?p=364

[Iris]

170. Is your hint for people getting their first job out of college?

Because I have a BA in English and have had plenty of jobs that didn't specify a particular major.

The HR profession is bullshit.

[Nobody]

86. That explains why

in the corporate world you hear and see in written correspondence things like:

I agreed it with Joe.

I will be journaling this meeting with you.

The marketing department is architecting a new ad campaign.

... maximize data to drive marketing initiatives that align with our grand strategies.

The mission is to learn more about leveraging the solutions for mission critical business applications.

The journalization of the meeting will be sent to you.

We need leverageable synergy.

Please action the following requests.

Calendaring will be a challenge.

And one last beauty at the end of a presentation: Final Conclusion

These are not entry level new hires, these are vice presidents of corporations. Back in school, the kids who got As in English were picked on. Americans as a rule don't take foreign languages. If you want to learn your own language, learn another one and compare and contrast.

Is there any wonder we have monstrosities like the above examples? I love looking for and mocking silliness I find in company-wide emails.

Spoken and written communication skills are essential and should be treated as such.

[ladywnch]

121. you forgot , "we have to solution this opportunity".....(translation -

we have to solve this problem)no wonder no one understands anything anymore.....the English language has been sooooo bastardized....I hate corporate-speak America.

[Iris]

171. Exactly. And also shows the insecurity of the people in these positions.

They think by using words that seem "sophisticated" no one will notice how incompetent they feel.

[eridani]

76. Spell check eliminated the need for proofreaders?

Sew, when did you start to think that?

[raccoon]

88. Thank you! So many people think spellcheck catches everything.

It sure as hell doesn't, and so many times you see the WRONG WORD because somebody thought spellcheck was always right.

Example I'm thinking of was the word "ironing" used for "irony." Aargh!

[GMFORD]

128. Whenever there were rumors of layoffs

at my former company, I was corralled into the job of proofreader for people's resumes. I worked in software so we had a lot of people for whom english is a second language so they had to rely on spellchecking. I read the most hilarious things.

[redqueen]

108. Is 'proofreader' even a job?

I did a short stint as a tech writer, and that was part of my job... I wonder if I'd be qualified to be a full-time proofreader. That sounds like a dream job!

[Scout]

165. Proofreader is a job at typesetters, printers ....

although now that everyone thinks they are a typesetter just because they have a computer and can "desktop publish" proofreaders are not in demand.

I started as a proofreader 25 years ago, learned typesetting and electronic/digital prepress ... then watched those jobs disappear with desktop publishing, then with stripping (imposition) software the strippers lost their jobs, then with computer to plate the platemakers lost their jobs....

[Nikia]

190. I have seen ads for proof readers before

The ads were through temp agencies but some of the jobs seemed to be temp to hire positions.

[ProudDad]

139. Ever see "The Corporation"?

The guy who produced it got the idea when he was pursuing a double-major in Business and Psychology...

"To assess the "personality" of the corporate "person," a checklist is employed, using diagnostic criteria of the World Health Organization and the standard diagnostic tool of psychiatrists and psychologists. The operational principles of the corporation give it a highly anti-social "personality": it is self-interested, inherently amoral, callous and deceitful; it breaches social and legal standards to get its way; it does not suffer from guilt, yet it can mimic the human qualities of empathy, caring and altruism. Four case studies, drawn from a universe of corporate activity, clearly demonstrate harm to workers, human health, animals and the biosphere. Concluding this point-by-point analysis, a disturbing diagnosis is delivered: the institutional embodiment of laissez-faire capitalism fully meets the diagnostic criteria of a "psychopath."

http://www.thecorporation.com/index.cfm?page_id=312


MBA = Accomplished Psychopathic Personality


Buy it, watch it, pass it around...

This is the REAL enemy of us all -- the repukes and conservative Dems are merely their minions...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

47. Hey, I think I saw you in Ratatouille. You're the man who killed a person with his thumb, right?

:hi:

[RandomKoolzip]

61. Guilty as charged!

Hey, man.

:hi:

Actually, "Ratatouille" was probably the most accurate depiction of what happens in a real, fine-dining kitchen I've ever seen in a film, either live-action or animated - people ought to check it out, see how hard professional cooks work, and then ask why these people are paid pittances.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

104. I loved "Ratatouille". And here's an avatar for you:

[OldTymeDem]

109. ??

Why get an education in an area that wont improve your standard of living? If you want to get a basket-weaving degree, fine, but dont bitch and blame others if you cant make a decent living at it. If my kids want to go to college, I am only supporting the education financially if it is for a degree that one can make a living with. If they just want to become a "well rounded" or "enlightened" with a baloney degree like "History", they will have to do it on their own dime...

[redqueen]

111. A History degree is "baloney"?

Interesting...

Enjoy your stay.

[WildEyedLiberal]

185. Shit, you mean I just wasted 4 years of my life on "baloney"?

If only I'd had these sages to set me straight when I started college - I could've majored in something "productive" like business administration! Obviously only a bleeding heart sissy liberal would study something as quaint and useless as "history."

:puke:

[Yupster]

193. History major wasn't useless to me

I taught history for nine years before leaving the field 16 years ago. It got me my first good job and made e a professional. I don't think I could have made it so well in business without that experience.

[Bill McBlueState]

114. "Why get an education in an area that wont improve your standard of living?"

Because standard of living is not the only important thing in life. Is that really what you want to teach your kids?

[PatSeg]

119. I know people who have degrees in computer science

They chose that field so they could get a decent job and ended up managing a Taco Bell! Meanwhile, companies are importing workers from overseas to fill these jobs, because they will work for less money. You don't always know if your choices were good ones.

[ProudDad]

143. Ah, that old republican call

"Train don't edjumacate the lower classes"...

[HughBeaumont]

155. Oh goodBYE.

Colleges aren't SUPPOSED to be cubicle-farm minor leagues. It's assholes like the corporatocracy you buy into that MADE them that way.

[ellisonz]

184. Take your hatred of the humanities and shove it!

Sincerely,

A History Major.

[Contrary1]

187. That's fine if you can accurately predict that a job is available in 4-6 years

that your kids' get their degree in. Of course, that degree may open numerous doors to them for a second or third part time job.
But, then; the upside to this scenario, as I'm sure you will agree...is that it would be "uniquely American". :patriot:

[NashVegas]

202. So You're Going to Support a System That Treats College as a Vocational School?

Why not just send your kids to BOCES or whatever the job training school is in your home state.

[PatSeg]

113. But, but, but

Those are the jobs that Americans won't do! I know, cuz I heard it on the TV and all those experts can't be wrong!!!!

[redqueen]

118. You misheard.

Those jobs are hard labor, not food service. e.g. migrant workers

[H2O Man]

8. Nominated.

Thank you.

[redqueen]

10. Thanks to you too.

:hi:

[H2O Man]

42. Years ago,

I was in a sociology class at a near-by college. One of the guys in our class was the mayor of the community, and he felt that he was somehow "above" the other students. Perhaps it was due to his being older, or it may have been from what he believed was a superior social status.

One evening, he was on a roll, giving his opinion about "those people." The teacher attempted to add balance to the discussion, but it wasn't working. At one point the teacher looked at me in a manner that indicated he wished he could really answer the mayor. But he couldn't, because of his position.

Finally, I said, "Yeah, and if those lazy people in Bangla Desh would just get a job, they wouldn't be asking for welfare." The teacher burst out laughing. The mayor asked him -- rather than me -- what I had said, and the teacher couldn't say it without laughing.

[redqueen]

50. Nice one...

Is it wrong of me to want to call that attitude "bourgeois"?

[H2O Man]

63. I think if you

met the mayor, you would likely call him a "wanna-be-bourgeois."

[Katherine Brengle]

11. Don't even get me started. Buying an education is the most ridiculous

notion. One of the most ridiculous in our recorded history.

I've been to college - I've seen the standards. Money will get you anything you want - intelligence, determination, strength of character, even genius, will not get you far in a consumer-zombie culture.

I fucking hate Hate HATE the concept of degrees for dollars.

[redqueen]

14. I like your passion!

I don't wanna get you started if you don't wanna get started... but it seems like something I'd like to see someday.

:hi:

[Katherine Brengle]

23. Hmm...

Okay. Now I'm into it.

I think the practice of monetary exchange for information (or in many cases, a piece of paper that says you have that information) is inherently classist and unjust. It rewards those who are born into wealth and severely limits the opportunities of those born into the lower classes.

As one who was not born into wealth, but pushed my way into college thanks for grants, loans, and scholarships, I've also seen another part of this. Those progeny of wealthy families not only have a better chance of receiving higher education, they also tend not to have to take out loans to get there - which means they do not leave college and start their lives in crushing debt, as happens to most college-educated children of the middle and lower classes. They already have the advantage of living in nice areas, going to great primary and secondary schools, and having a relatively easy time getting into and staying in college, but they also get a leg up on the rest of us by not having to deal with huge loan payments.

Having this financial support system also better enables these students to go on to graduate school, which often further increases their earning potential.

Anecdotally, most of the lower and middle class students I've known have not been able to FINISH college, even though they managed to get started. This includes myself. The costs build up, the loans keep getting bigger, tuition prices are rising, as are all other education-related costs, and too many of us who worked really hard for our places in this country's institutions of higher learning have to bail out.

And guess what? Turns out prospective employers don't really care if you're just 20 credits shy of your BA - it doesn't count for anything. It doesn't matter if you worked your ass off to get there, and stay there, and had a better academic record than 90% of the students who graduated - doesn't matter. Except to the creditors of course - they know exactly how long you were there, and they have the bills to prove it.

Me, bitter? Nah. Why should I be?

[redqueen]

26. BRAVO!

:applause:

Thank you... :hug:

[Katherine Brengle]

28. Any time :D

[AnotherGreenWorld]

35. I went to college on grants, loans, and scholarships too...

I'm also very bitter. :D But I don't share your sympathy for children of middle-class parents. They might not have all of the advantages. But they've advantages. And they often have parents who help pay for their tuition and things of that sort.

Also: Often the children of wealthy parents may have went to great private schools, but actually aren't intelligent or even well-educated. They only get into elite schools because they know the process. The SAT and ACT (and the LSAT, GRE, and the rest) are entirely learnable. You can improve your score dramatically if you have the time and money to prep for them, and that's what these kids do. They're handed a good high school GPA then taught how to take a test and get a good SAT score.

[Nobody]

92. And don't forget affirmative action - oops I meant legacy enrollment

The only affirmative action the right wing elitists don't want to do away with. Dubya got into Yale because his daddy went there. How many more qualified geniuses didn't get in because Dubya took up a space he wasn't qualified for? Only the rich kids get asked to join the secret societies (thankfully they aren't as influential these days, but they're still there)

A line in "The Good Shepherd":
Joseph Palmi: What about you people, Mr. Wilson, what do you have?
Edward Wilson: The United States of America, and the rest of you are just visiting.

(the movie quote site: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0343737/quotes

A perfect example of the attitude the elite have about the rest of us.

[hfojvt]

38. like you said, it's not even information, it's certification

The certificate which is your pass to a good-paying job. Consequently, most 'students' don't really care about information, or knowledge. Don't care about literature or music, just need this class to graduate. Don't care about economics or history, just need this class to graduate.

And they are right too. Most of the things I learned in college are useless in my life. Even the good-paying job I got, with our government wanting to use my brain to help develop weapons of mass destruction - better and more destructive ones, that is. Even they did not use what I was taught in school. Instead I had to learn new programming languages on the job.

It runs all through school though, we motivate our kids through fear. Learn this, or memorize it really, or you will flunk. If you flunk, you will lose all your friends and be known as a loser, a moran. If you do not finish school, you will end up working as a janitor or at some other really dangerous, boring, low-paying, low-status job. Kids are born wanting to learn and explore. You can hardly stop them as they learn to walk and talk, and grab everything in their reach. Instead of assisting that or guiding it, our society feels like it must break it. Drill them and regiment them so they will be ready for a lifetime of doing the same mundane task on an assembly line over and over and over again for the rest of their lives.

[redqueen]

54. Fantastic post.

This deserves its own thread, really.

Our "education" system is broken, like most other old institutions. Way behind the times, and if we can't reform it, maybe we should just set up an alternate system and starve it.

[NotGivingUp]

70. Excellent post! It really saddens me to think of all that has been stolen from us.

They stole our time, initiative, individuality, critical thinking skills, innate abilities, creativity, confidence, and set us in a world where we are stuck working as slaves for them the rest of our lives...earning just enough each day to go back the next day and do it all over again...day after day...year after year...until, before we know it, our lives are over. it's not supposed to be this way.

[hfojvt]

75. it seems these days what has most been stolen

is our Hope. Our optimism that there is nothing that we cannot do. We won two world wars and put a man on the moon. Why can't we put all of them there? With his 'morning in America' Reagan promised to restore hope, but it was a false hope built on military violence and on enriching the rich. Just be greedy and things will be okay seemed to be the message. Yet it is the psychotic greed that takes a good situation and makes a person dissatisfied with the wealth that they have. We have a home, we want a bigger one, a fancier one, one with newere furniture and electric everything, home gyms, home pools, TVs, VCRs, DVDs, etc., etc. Everything possible to entertain us and make our life easier - a riding lawnmower too. Entertain us at home so we don't have to deal with the public, with strangers. Now we have cell phones so we can always talk to friends even when we are among the canaille, the rabble.

I should be exxagerating, because sometimes it looks like lots of people are happy, but make them slow down in traffic or wait in line and see how quickly and fiercely the anger boils up, way out of proportion to the aggravation. What was the phrase? We are still living lives of quiet desperation. Our society is highly dsyfunctional.

[PatSeg]

126. Years ago, when I was a waitress

I had a customer freak out because he had ordered his eggs "over light", NOT "over easy"!!! To this day I cannot tell the difference. Amazingly the cook was not perturbed at all, so I have to wonder what he did to that guy's eggs.

[alarimer]

62. Higher education should be free

As it is in many countries. Of course I am talking about state-supported schools. Harvard will still be able to charge whatever they want and if you want to pay it, you can. But I believe that, to level the playing field, college needs to be free or very low-cost.

[Katherine Brengle]

85. I think the idea of

free college for those who prove themselves as students is the best idea. Work hard and if you are smart enough, you can go to college for free. No monetary exchange.

Also, cutting down the number of college educated people would make things better I think. Most jobs do not require higher education - they just don't. They require specialized training, but on the job training is usually the most important part of learning any job.

Higher ed makes sense for people who want to be teachers and doctors and lawyers and engineers and chemists etc. But most of the people I know who went to college end up in retail management jobs, mindless office jobs, and jobs that have no connection with their degrees.

We've built up college educations as the be-all, end-all, and they aren't. It just raises the bar for everyone (and not in a good way), creates a ton of unnecessary debt, and floods our colleges and universities with "business" programs that teach management techniques almost anyone could learn on the job for free.

You shouldn't have to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for a piece of paper to be eligible for crappy jobs.

[raccoon]

89. Amen to that, Katherine!

"We've built up college educations as the be-all, end-all, and they aren't. "

EVERYBODY doesn't need to go to college. There seems to be that goofy mind-set in the US.

It was true when I became an adult in the '70's and it still is.

AMericans tend to look down on somebody going into plumbing, etc., which I think is unfortunate. Plumbers and electricians and so on are needed, and pay more than many white-collar jobs.

[Katherine Brengle]

90. My BIL went to trade school instead of high school, he's a plumber - he makes $40/hr.

My friends who went to college are unemployed, under-employed, making 1/3 of that if they are really really lucky.

My husband didn't go to college - he makes more money than most people I know who did.

I used to be one of those people who looked down on others who did not pursue higher education - as I get older, I realize a lot of them really got it right.

My BIL and SIL have bought their own home (at 20 and 22 years of age), they have good cars, they had a beautiful wedding and honeymoon, they have good credit and money in the bank.

[PatSeg]

177. There is something to be said for old fashioned apprenticeship

programs. On the job training for skilled labor is logical and effective.

[PatSeg]

127. Most of those jobs

employees have to "unlearn" what they learned in college, as they rarely apply to the real world. Some skills can only be learned on-the-job. A classroom is no substitute.

[alarimer]

168. Well I believe in education for education's sake

Your aim in a college degree should not be to get the best paying job available but to broaden your mind. So everyone should have a good, liberal arts education at minimum, with enough science and math to give you good critical thinking skills.

And yes, not every profession needs a degree; there should be free vocational training as well. But everyone should have read the classics, know something about science and math and geography and maybe a language or two. You used to learn that stuff in high school, but not anymore.

[PatSeg]

174. Education isn't just about acquiring knowledge,

but to learn how to learn. The information is available to those who know how to find it and digest it. I appreciate my high school education more and more as the years pass and wonder what kind of an education are kids getting today. I agree that education should be to broaden your mind, but you don't necessarily need a degree to do that. You could always hang it on your wall though, if you have an empty space to fill.

Geography??? Do they even teach that in high school anymore? It was required when I was in school, but few young people today can find anything on a map!

[Katherine Brengle]

203. That was my mindset as I set off for college.

And as wonderful as it is, it doesn't pay back those loans.

I continue my education on my own now - I don't need to pay thousands of dollars a year for it.

[Kat45]

173. True, most jobs don't require higher education, but the employers do.

Just about every job ad I see insists on an undergrad degree for starters. They expect a degree for a secretarial job, and if I recall, 'secretary' used to be the most common job for women who didn't go to college. Now they call the job 'administrative assistant'; it sounds fancier and generally requires a degree. If they require college for these jobs, I don't know if there are any jobs in offices left for noncollege folks. (Mailroom?) I've held many a job that I could have done easily just out of high school. It is absurd.


And as for on-the-job training, in this employers' market, no company wants their employees to be spending nonproductive time being trained. They want the new employees to already have experience not only doing the task but doing it in the exact same industry/environment as they are, ie.if you are an excellent writer, they aren't interested unless you have experience writing all of the exact same type of pieces for the exact same industry--and have mastered each type of software that they use).

THe other m.o. for companies is to hire brand new graduates whom they can mold in their own image and teach to perform tasks the exact way that they believe they should be performed. Anyone else need not apply. Also, if you're over 50 (maybe even 40), forgeddaboudit in much of the job market.

Edited to add: I have a lot of experience in the job market, both recent and in the old days. I just finally found a job after being laid off a year and a half ago, and I can say that the job market has definitely changed. Even at temp agencies, I've had to interview at the company where the job would be, twice. Another temp agency calls to tell me about a job and ask if I'm interested BUT they're also making the same call to other temps they have. I'm not sure how they decide to whom to offer the position, though I know that in one case they sent our resumes to the company. Back in the old days, they called you with a job and you started working the next day.

[PatSeg]

175. I remember those "old days"

They weren't that long ago either. I remember being offered jobs so quickly that I was disoriented for a bit. Now even the most menial job requires several interviews and weeks of waiting while the bills accumulate.

[Katherine Brengle]

204. This is exactly the problem - we've created an atmosphere where

one is required to incur crushing debt and pay tens of thousands of dollars for a piece of paper in order to qualify for even the least impressive of jobs.

Retail stores now expect applicants to come in with a RESUME.

We've built up a college degree so much that now it is both necessary AND cheapened.

While the need for that degree increases, it's worth decreases.

[Megahurtz]

182. Great Post Again!

:applause:

[Bill McBlueState]

123. Progressives should be working harder on this issue

Have you seen any recent estimates for what it would cost to make public higher ed free? I'm familiar with a 2001 estimate that it would take $70 billion a year, but I haven't seen anything lately.

(For fun, contrast that figure with the money we spend invading countries where brown people live.)

[alarimer]

169. I think getting universal health care may be more important at the moment

But the idea of free higher education should be on the agenda too. I don't claim to have all the answers as to how it would be funded. I am sure there are a lot of unnecessary government programs out there. And of course, we can cut back on the unnecessary wars too.

[PatSeg]

176. And corporate welfare

to companies that outsource jobs overseas. If they destroy the middle class, who is going to buy all their goods and services? Where is the logic?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

65. Well, guess what.

My parents went to college but were not rich. Dad went to night school to become a lawyer on the GI Bill after WW II. They scrimped and saved to send me to college. I got my BA from an expensive private school full of rich kids. I never got a job with that degree. It was a BA in biology from the best pre med school in the state.

I got an associates degree in a vocational field. I worked in that for nearly 20 years but I got burned out before I was forty from the stress.

I worked fulltime and went to law school at night, on the pay as you go plan. That was a JD from a private, expensive school too. I made good money at my vocational job, so I could afford the money for the school. I think it cost about 20K between the tuition and books and that was in the early 80s. Took me five years and it was grueling.

The job alone was grueling, and night school on top of this was even worse. Looking back I don't know how the hell I did it. The rich kids who didn't have to work and got out in three years (Law school is 90 semester hours) said, "What? You work and go to law school?". They were horrified that I worked in the real world, the courthouse, and dealt with all the stuff we were learning in law school.

I did all this in the 70s and 80s, before the prices soared but it still wasn't cheap.

I spent 12 years in college, have two degrees from private schools, one from a community college. The 2 year degree was the only one that got me a job where I could afford grad school.

Neither private school degree I got has gotten me a job. I gave up on looking for a job several years ago after I couldn't even find temporary work although I have worked in the legal field my whole life and have many years of experience. I can also type 110 wpm on a computer, and used to be a legal secretary.

I don't have any student debt. I also have no job prospects, no income, and no health insurance. I'm gonna have to sell my house and move to the country because the property taxes & utilities are killing me.

I'm over qualified and over 50 so there is age discrimination there and too many degrees. Bosses don't want smart people working for them. Especially if said smart person is short and female.

I can see why you are bitter. However, I got through three degrees without any debt, and still got no earning potential. I just don't know the right people to get a job. None of my so called lawyer friends would help me get a job when I was looking for one. Several of them are millionaire partners in law firms now, but they couldn't lift a finger for me.

I feel like I was fucked over by society with the promise of a good job and I spent an awful lot of time and money getting degrees that were personally useful as far as gathering knowledge, but didn't do a damn thing to help me get a job. In fact, they make me LESS employable, as far as I can tell. The fucking job market is a total farce.

[Katherine Brengle]

81. Damn...

I'm sorry. That's just total shit.

At least you aren't carrying a ton of debt from it, but that's still not good enough.

[raccoon]

93. Like you, I'm over 50, and have several degrees.

Over 50 is a great big strike against anybody.

[PatSeg]

132. That sucks!

You did all the "right things", but success eluded you. Seems to be a common story here. Of course, I did mostly the "wrong things" and ended up the same, so it must be because we are "smart, short, and female"! If we'd known that, we wouldn't have had to try so hard.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

164. Yeah and some white males have the same problem I do.

My SO has an Associate's degree in video production and has student loans from that he can't pay. He went back to school after being laid off from the oil bidness, and thought it would make him more employable. Ha!!! He couldn't get a job with a TV station doing video editing which is what he wanted to do.

He couldn't find anything in R&D which is what he really wanted to do after getting a B.S. and M.S. in math/physics. He wanted to go into nuclear physics and figured out the relationship between gravity and the electromagnetic force but his stupid faculty advisors wouldn't let him write his thesis on black holes. 38 years later NASA is catching up with him, by sending up Gravity Probe B.

Just cuz you're a white guy with an education equivalent to mine (ridiculously long) doesn't mean you can get a job either.

[PatSeg]

172. Well this discussion indicates that it is a widespread problem

and certainly not limited to any age group, race, or gender. The American Dream is a myth, but that's okay. I don't think I ever bought into it anyway. The few people I knew who appeared to be living it, weren't exactly people I wished to emulate, but I would like to maintain a reasonable lifestyle without killing myself in the process.

[MountainLaurel]

69. An added point

In a lot of fields, you can't find a job after graduation unless you've had experience BEFORE graduation, i.e., an internship, most of which are unpaid. Poor and middle-class kids can't take an unpaid summer internship, because if they're not working for $$, they're not eating or they're not coming to school the next semester.

[Katherine Brengle]

82. Great point --

it's not possible to take an unpaid job when you need to support yourself.

[Selatius]

71. Your post has made my day.

I know where you're coming from; I'm in it right now. I'll be lucky to get out of university with under 25,000 in loans, and I worked my ass off so that it wouldn't be any higher. I don't know about my future earning potential, especially with a shaky economy and outsourcing affecting most fields now, but what I do know is I'm going to spend a lot of my early years not really doing anything but slaving away for the bankers in the student loan industry. I may end up doing so for the rest of my working life. It's a racket they've got going, and it's a profitable one, too.

[Katherine Brengle]

83. It's absolutely criminal.

I have friends who graduated with BAs and have over $50,000 in debt. Starting your life in a hole like that, with no guarantee of a decently paying job, is just insane.

Honestly? I regret going to college at this point in my life. I have debt I can't repay right now, and like others have said, little earning potential.

Our schools and colleges are just employee-mills - they no longer prepare our best and brightest to go bravely into the future and discover new and exciting things - they prepare our rich and richer to go on ruling the world while crushing almost everyone else.

[Bill McBlueState]

125. yep, employee mills

And the worst part is that most people think that's what colleges are supposed to be.

[PatSeg]

135. A new and unique form of Slave Labor

"Owing your soul to the company store" is no longer for miners alone. We now have a class of highly educated slaves or indentured servants. It is absolutely bizarre, like some futuristic, sci-fi novel! I'm getting dizzy!!!

[eridani]

78. It was much better 40 years ago

I went to a private college on state and college scholarships, supplemented with 10 hours a week at minimum wage jobs back when the minimum wage was worth something, and about $3500 in loans at 2% interest under the National Defense Education Act. Go to grad school or teach in an underserved area, and you could get payments postponed or eliminated.

There is no reason other than lack of political will (and spending ginormous amounts of money on world domination) why those policies should not be be re-established.

[Katherine Brengle]

84. Exactly - but people grow more and more apathetic.

A mass movement could make a difference, but people are just trying to survive these days it seems.

[myrna minx]

101. What a fantastic post.

:applause:

[JAbuchan08]

122. You and me both buddy. n/t

[Megahurtz]

180. Here! Here!

:applause: I agree!

[AnotherGreenWorld]

29. Yeah. With time and money anyone can get an MD, JD, PhD, or certainly an MBA

And if you buy an MFA from a decent program, regardless of the quality of your writing, you'll get your writing published. (Some people buy a Phd in biology, though, and then later on, on a whim, become writers.)

[Katherine Brengle]

87. Exactly - it's ALL about money.

When in doubt, look to the White House.

[HughBeaumont]

31. See MY post on the SENSIBLE American way of NON-subsidized health care and education.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1541416&mesg_id=1548741

Just another reason why living here is slowly turning into an insurmountable quicksand pit.

[redqueen]

55. Great post...

it really makes me sad that so many on our side don't (won't?) see it for what it is.

[cgrindley]

131. So you'd actually say that to a kid? to your own child?

the purchase of an education is the most important thing that a young person can do. And by purchase, I mean whether it is paid for by the state or by fellowships or grants or tuition waivers or what not... even if it's free, someone's tax dollars bought it.

Mark my words, it will be the rare person twenty years from now who lives above the poverty line WITHOUT at least one graduate degree.

[Katherine Brengle]

205. I didn't say that.

The point is, the system is fucked up.

And I think it's by design.

Assuring that kids enter adulthood in debt (kids who aren't coming from the upper classes) guarantees a nation of cheap laborers who are willing to take whatever crumbs are passed along to them.

It's no different from when college used to be inaccessible to most people - now it's accessible to almost everyone, for a price - don't have the cash? Take out some loans - don't worry - you don't have to pay them back until you graduate.

There just aren't enough jobs out there that *truly* require the worker to have a higher education - most jobs just aren't that complicated. But we've screwed things up so badly, by the time my 3 y/o graduates from high school, she'll need a Masters to work at a drive-thru.

Things are way out of hand.

As someone said in another response here - it's like we live in a freaky futuristic scifi novel about a nation of highly educated slaves.

[sandnsea]

12. Not everyone can get educated

That's a reality that way too many people don't want to accept. Some people are just dumb and that's a pure fact. But if they're putting in a hard day's work, they deserve a decent standard of living. You can't pay someone minimum wage to take care of grandma and then tsk tsk that they have to live in a homeless shelter.

[redqueen]

13. I don't even think it's so much that anyone is dumb...

they might just be happy doing a workaday job.

Whatever anyone's reason for settling into a so-called "low skill" job, as you said, they should earn enough to live on.

I like when we agree on stuff. :hi:

[Jed Dilligan]

40. What I don't like:

Who your parents are increasingly determine your career track. If your parents are college-educated, you will probably go to college even if you're dumb. If they aren't, you probably won't even if you're smart. We're handing out bachelor's degrees to morons and skipping a lot of talent because it comes from the wrong set of wombs. I support tougher grading in college AND more scholarship programs for smart working-class kids.

[davekriss]

57. Very true

Recent studies which I don't have the time to cite right now demonstrate that the U.S. has grown into a more class-ridid society than Europe and the U.K. There's less chance here to improve upon the socio-economic strata you're born into than across the pond. Further, poverty here -- in fact the bottom 40 percentile of U.S. incomes -- is more grueling than in France, the Benelux countries, Germany, the U.K., and Scandinavia. (I not long ago returned from a trip to Brussels and Aachen Germany and felt like I was returning from civilization.) Bottom line, pick your parents well!

[redqueen]

58. That's sad, considering how many Americans

still cling to that old horatio alger myth.

[slackmaster]

16. No, education doesn't guarantee a good job, BUT

Lack of eduction pretty much asssures you won't get one.

[redqueen]

18. A living wage shouldn't be dependent on a certain "type" of job. n/t

[NotGivingUp]

73. You're right. Everyone deserves to be paid a living wage and treated w/respect.

So many have been brainwashed to think you should expect to not be able to earn a living and expect to be treated like a piece of dirt if you didn't 'better' yourself and pay your dues and go to school. They have been led to believe that it's ok to take a step up w/their piece of paper even though everybody's step up is by stepping all over the people at the bottom. This system is sick and depraved and operates on people using other people.

[ProudDad]

148. A degree is NOT necessarily "education"

an "educated person" doesn't necessarily need or have a "degree"...

A good job is mostly a matter of "luck" and who you know -- not intelligence or what you know...

My point is that "Education" and a Good Job are asynchronous events -- there is no good correlation between the two.

I have no degree and am self-educated as a computer programmer/system designer. I had a pretty successful 42 year career, mostly as a freelance consultant/programmer.

But my luck turned, the jobs were outsourced and I hit the wall of age discrimination...

So, I'm learning to work with my hands, the parts that the mouse hasn't f*cked up. A lot less stress...

[gollygee]

17. Ivory tower syndrome

I was just arguing with someone earlier today that getting college education isn't necessarily an answer. What if you *can't* find a better job, and then also have a mountain of debt from getting the degree.

[redqueen]

19. They'd say you picked the wrong field, of course.

Which of course makes no sense.

No one should be paid less than enough to live on for any full-time job.

[gollygee]

20. Then either people should be paid a living wage

or they should be given a magic crystal ball to forecast the future.

[HughBeaumont]

34. I. HATE the "wrong field" assholes!!!!

DAMN. Ownership society truly does mean "You're on your own".

If economists, industry pundits and financial analysts cannot point to a single industry that's creating a great deal of jobs and is sustainable for the time being, how is the average American worker expected to know?

[DaveJ]

21. I might break even with my education at best

Still glad I did it. I've been educated not just academically but by traveling a little and having a lot of different and wierd life experiences. If I ever become 'successful' as in actually owning a home outright and being able to retire (funny that used to be the norm) it will be the result of creating something on my own and selling it, something that I don't think I could do without a full, broad education. Unfortunately few can really expect an employer to be able to provide all our financial needs anymore.

[redqueen]

22. Disagree completely. We CAN and SHOULD expect that...

especially with the ones at the top making Gilded-Age incomes.

[DaveJ]

27. Completely?

Just one sentence worded the wrong way and I guess everything I said is moot now?

I think we all should have affordable housing, healthcare, and more time to ourselves. But the way things are now, it is impossible for employers to provide it. If the government would step in and make these things happen, then yes it would be realistic to expect it. But expecting something doesn't help if it's not realistic in today's world.

[redqueen]

30. I wonder how it measures up...

How much do huge corporations pay their senior executives (not just salary but bonuses, perks, etc.) as compared to how much they spend on healthcare.

Yes, the healthcare situation needs to be addressed as well. Why is it so bad? Well in part, due to the fatcats at the top, scooping out a healthy dollop of profit for themselves.

IMO it's not realistic to pretend that there's no alternative to executive entitlements.

[DaveJ]

36. I opted to work for a small business

A family owned business since the 20s. Yeah the owners are all rich from birth, their kids all have trust funds and will just automatically become the bosses later, but nevertheless I doubt they could afford to pay all of us a good comfortable wage and keep the business afloat.

Same hold for executives. Even though their salaries are obscene and undeserved, they could not make up for the amount of money that their millions of employees need to be comfortable.

The only way to get the economy straightened out is getting housing costs lowered by at least half, and putting more laws in place with regard to minimum wage and workers rights.

Something like that would create an even playing field so businesses can go on as normal without being put out of the market by being kind to their workers.

[Selatius]

67. Hate to burst people's bubbles, but health care is bigger than any employer could tackle.

Even Fortune 500 companies are finding it's a royal bitch to deal with HMOs in terms of health care for their workers. This is why even in the business community there is a receptive audience for any universal health care proposal, all except the "socialist" single-payer system that replaces private insurance. Few in the business world are willing to throw fellow executives in the health insurance industry under the bus like that; it sets a bad precedent that they fear could turn against them.

[redqueen]

98. Class before country, and even self-concern.

Then again, I suppose their self-concern is well looked after, what with golden parachutes and all.

Nice that the very rich will stick together like that.

Tragic that the middle class finds it so easy to divorce themselves from the poor to side with their exploiters.

[ProudDad]

153. There IS a solution

it just requires passing HR 676 and having it signed into law in 2009:

http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_2.htm

Brief Summary of HR 676

· The United States National Health Insurance Act establishes an American national health insurance program. The bill would create a publicly financed, privately delivered health care system that uses the already existing Medicare program by expanding and improving it to all U.S. residents, and all residents living in U.S. territories. The goal of the legislation is to ensure that all Americans will have access, guaranteed by law, to the highest quality and most cost effective health care services regardless of their employment, income, or health status.
· With over 45-75 million uninsured Americans, and another 50 million who are under- insured, the time has come to change our inefficient and costly fragmented non health care system.

Who is Eligible

· Every person living in or visiting the United States and the U.S. Territories would receive a United States National Health Insurance Card and ID number once they enroll at the appropriate location. Social Security numbers may not be used when assigning ID cards.

Health Care Services Covered

· This program will cover all medically necessary services, including primary care, in patient care, outpatient care, emergency care, prescription drugs, durable medical equipment, long term care, mental health services, dentistry, eye care, chiropractic, and substance abuse treatment. Patients have their choice of physicians, providers, hospitals, clinics and practices. No co-pays or deductibles are permitted under this act.

Conversion To A Non-Profit Health Care System

· Private health insurers shall be prohibited under this act from selling coverage that duplicates the benefits of the USNHI program. Exceptions to this rule include coverage for cosmetic surgery, and other medically unnecessary treatments. Those who are displaced as the result of the transition to a non- profit health care system are the first to be hired and retrained under this act.

Cost Containment Provisions/ Reimbursement

· The National USNHI program will set reimbursement rates annually for physicians, allow for "global budgets" (annual lump sums for operating expenses) for health care providers; and negotiate prescription drug prices. The national office will provide an annual lump sum allotment to each existing Medicare region; each region will administer the program.

· The conversion to a not-for-profit health care system will take place over a 15 year period. U.S. treasury bonds will be sold to compensate investor-owned providers for the actual appraised value of converted facilities used in the delivery of care; payment will not be made for loss of business profits. Health insurance companies could be sub-contracted out to handle reimbursements.

Proposed Funding For USNHI Program:

· Maintaining current federal and state funding of existing health care programs. A modest payroll tax on all employers of 3.3%. A 5% health tax on the top 5% of income earners. A small tax on stock and bond transfers. Closing corporate tax loop-holes, repealing the Bush tax cut.

[ProudDad]

152. You're right

"expecting something doesn't help"...

But DEMANDING IT, in every forum you can, every day, in every way will be the ONLY way it comes.

Don't let the corporate capitalist masters define what's "realistic in today's world". What's realistic in today's world is what we DEMAND AND TAKE!!!

If enough of us DEMAND, we will overcome.

[ProudDad]

149. This is a very sad statement

"few can really expect an employer to be able to provide all our financial needs anymore"

That's because they're stealing the wealth that WE PRODUCE and we are supposed to be content with the crumbs that drop from their heavily laden table...

There's enough wealth (in this country FOR SURE - and possibly on the Earth) for everyone to have a decent standard of living. The problem is not one of resources it's one of distribution which means that it's not a technical problem but a political one.

Demand your DUE!!! Don't let those bastards wear you down!!!

[Parche]

25. Jobs

You just need a better edumucation :hi:


Is this job taken? :hi:

[buddhamama]

37. it is a shame you felt the need to post this...

no. a little more education and hard work will NOT make all the difference.

[redqueen]

41. Maybe it's the recent influx of "newcomers"...

but yeah, it needed to be said.

Not that I see any of those showing up here to defend the viewpoint. Shocking, truly.

[buddhamama]

43. the 'it won't happen to me' crowd

the truth of it is, the majority of Americans are living in poverty, whether they wish to believe it or not.

the formula for determining poverty is outdated. The majority of us are just a paycheck or two away from financial disaster.

[G_j]

39. and it is only getting worse

:mad:

[EFerrari]

45. K&R

:loveya:

[redqueen]

46. Thanks!

:loveya:

:patriot:

[EFerrari]

52. Thank you for your work, redqueen.

:toast:

[mudesi]

49. As if the poor can AFFORD education....(nm)

[redqueen]

53. That's their own fault, too!

:crazy:

That mindset seems to partially stem from the idea that if the person thinking that is getting by or even doing well, then anyone can. What those types don't realize is just how close to the edge they really are... a major medical problem, a lost job... so many things could take them down in a matter of months or weeks, but they don't see it. The illusion of control is a very dangerous one. We'd all be better off realizing how out of control we really are, even at the best of times.

"There before the grace of God" and all that. :hi:

[PatSeg]

145. And history keeps repeating itself

This has happened before and sadly will probably happen again. The crash of 1929 taught many people a valuable lesson that has been forgotten. The lessons they learned evidently died with them and we repeat the same cycle all over again. As humans, we are all vulnerable and a lack of compassion will reap more of the same.

[redqueen]

59. SHAMELESS kick.

:kick:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

60. Recent case in point:

Jeremy Hernandez, the young man who rescued the children after the bridge collapse in Minneapolis, had started learning auto mechanics at Dunwoody Institute (a venerable and highly regarded vocational school) but had been forced to drop out because of not being able to afford the tuition.

After he appeared on the news, the administration of Dunwoody got some alumni to pool their resources to pay his tuition.

A heartwarming story.

However, how many equally deserving young people from poor families are denied the opportunity to learn a skilled trade because of lack of money?

[redqueen]

115. Yep... he's lucky.

Many other's aren't.

[PatSeg]

146. I was thinking the same thing?

I guess you have to be a hero on the evening news to get that break so many deserve. How sad.

[Timbuk3]

66. Ph.D.s are being outsourced, too

I have a friend who has a Ph.D. and a Harvard Med School post-doc. The company he applied to was open about the fact that half their Ph.D. staff is in China.

He didn't get the job. They told him they filled the position with an "internal candidate".

You figure it out.

Meanwhile, I've had a job search agent active on the American Chemical Society website for several months. While he was sitting next to me I opened the last two emails sent by this agent.

The first contained 5 job leads. 3 were in India.

The second contained a single job lead for a position in India.

Janitor is one of the few positions that can't be outsourced. You need a long mop to scrub a floor in America when you're in Asia.

With that preface, may I present this story from the San Diego Union Tribune?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/business/biotech/20061126-9999-1n26biotech.html

The business of biotechnology is undergoing a seismic shift, and for some companies there's no surviving the jolt.

Take Discovery Partners International. The San Diego company ceased to exist in September, a victim of trends that are reshaping the biotech industry and, at least in the short term, threatening innovation and job creation in the nation's third-largest biotech cluster.

Increasingly, the venture capitalists who fund new life-science companies are shopping for existing drugs to refine instead of backing scientists to make discoveries. When startups are created, they're often minimally staffed. More drug companies are farming out research work to scientists in China, India and Eastern Europe, where tasks are done more cheaply.

"Get an education" isn't such hot advice any more, either.

What comes after "post-doctoral fellow"?

[LostInAnomie]

72. I didn't realize that was a point of contention here on DU.

I thought we were all pretty much solidly supportive of the poor.

[gollygee]

77. It's nice to see all this agreement for a change

:D

[redqueen]

99. I saw a few too many "they should get a better job" comments.

You'd think that we would be... whether it's disruptors or moderates saying those things, I don't know.


edit: I did notice the people who made the comments I'm talking about haven't chimed in on this thread.

:shrug:

[bobbolink]

74. Not only doesn't education do it all, but... if EVERYONE had "a good job"

who the hell would clean the toilets?

Who would pick up the trash?

Who would clerk in stores?

The CEOs would do all this?

Really, it doesn't take much smarts to know that there are NECESSARY jobs that people look down on.

Why don't we pay people according to how necessary their work is?

Then, a whole lot of big $$$ people would be out the door. :rofl:

[Nobody]

96. Contempt for the poor

The attitude of "It can't happen to me" is very comforting. Deep down we all know that it can happen to all of us. We can get hit by a bus, we can get cancer, we can lose our jobs through no fault of our own, we can have our homes burn down, we can be the victims of felonies.

The ones who spout off that the kinds of unglamourous jobs that get paid less than a pittance SHOULD be paid less than a pittance are the same kind of people who sniff judgementally that rape victims somehow deserved it. If people working necessary but low-paying jobs can't get paid enough to live on, they are the kind of riff raff who don't deserve better.

Nice handy trick to pretend that you can avoid their fate because you didn't do what they did to deserve to be paid a pittance while breaking your back in a dirty, tiring, soul-draining job. YOU did all the right things, YOU deserve the gravy train, YOU won't get kicked off despite having bought a ticket.

It can and will happen to them. If their friends are the kinds of people who have contempt for the poor, their friends will turn on them, refuse to have anything to do with them, use them as cautionary tales to their children.

Seems that the more necessary the work is, the less status it has. Farmers in the Middle Ages. If 90% of the population weren't farmers, few would eat. But the nobles took the best food and left the farmers with barely enough to live on. Child care in all eras and cultures has been looked down upon. Is this a high status, high wage job? Elementary school teachers, kindergarten teachers, all are low status, it's seen as child care and many parents assume that the teacher should be raising their child for them for free. Anything that involves cleaning, low wage, low status, much scorn.

I could go on but I've been rambling long enough.

[bobbolink]

200. You're so right about denial to protect from fear! I saw that when my son was kidnapped,

and I saw it again very clearly during Columbine.

I also see it right here on DU.

People have to seperate themselves into "US" and "THEM" in order to quiet their own fears.

And, as long as they do that, we will continue to have wars. It's the same process.

But, it's not something that "peace people" want to look at.

[Giant Robot]

100. I don't think a "good job"

is necessarily a CEO. I have known and worked with a lot of people that have enjoyed working at Burger King for example. That was a "good job" to them and a good fit. And certainly they do not deserve to be looked down upon because they work in fast food. I think pay based upon necessity might be a good place to start, and maybe working on the image that necessary jobs are low status to begin with should be included too.

[redqueen]

105. Agreed... there shouldn't be a stigma for necessary but unglamorous jobs.

The world needs laborers... it's time to stop treating them with contempt.

[PatSeg]

154. Some of the finest people I've known

were mopping the floors and washing the dishes. We had wonderful conversations and they often seemed more centered and content than the rest of us. They seemed to have a Buddhist quality about them as they knew that no task was too small. Reminds me of the Razer's Edge where the main character learned to find meaning in the simplest task and ended up very content driving a taxi in NYC at the end of the book.

John Steinbeck's characters were usually ordinary people, but he was able to portray them as extraordinary. I've met people like this and they will always be a part of me. I found that the people who had the least were generally the most generous with what they did have.

[redqueen]

157. LOVED the Razor's Edge.

:hi:

[PatSeg]

160. Me too!

One of my all time favorites, right up there with The Grapes of Wrath, which I was ironically reading while we traveled west on Route 66. Somerset Maugham touched me on a spiritual level and John Steinbeck brought me down to earth, giving me a more complete education. Highly evolved people often live in the shadows.

[Fovea]

166. The stigma is in what it cannot provide for your family

a home, food, medical care. It cannot, even though one works hard, so that Dick Cheney can have more.

The stigma is there because it makes people who already have too much to feel better by getting more themselves feel better because others are more miserable.

Welcome to the comfort of supply side Jesus.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. Indeed. Education doesn't create opportunity.

It enables a person to take advantage of opportunity.

If those opportunities don't exist, education is of little economic value.

[WildEyedLiberal]

80. Thank you so much for this OP

I'm about to graduate with my BA in History from a fairly prestigious state college, and I am the ONLY one of my group of friends who is graduating without debt (because I had a full tuition scholarship and because my dad has worked overtime for 4 years to help me meet the extra expenses).

The "thriving economy" of which my generation is supposedly going to reap the plentiful fruits is a JOKE! Most of my peers are already eyeball deep in debt, and will be working 20, 30 years just to pay off their student loans. Most of us can barely afford rent in the cities we'll eventually find work in - let alone a HOUSE. A bachelor's degree has become the new high school diploma - it does not guarantee a career or a high wage, and it is becoming the bare minimum level of education required by most employers, even for jobs paying only 20 or 30K a year.

My parents did not go to college and yet were able to buy a house within a few years of graduation, and I honestly doubt I'll ever come close to making what my dad does after his 40 years of employment at a factory - even with the added "benefit" of a college education.

[raccoon]

94. While I agree with the general mindset of this thread,

"My parents did not go to college and yet were able to buy a house "--and I'm not disputing that housing costs have risen more than most items, still, houses built today are a helluva lot bigger than the average house built several decades ago.

[ProudDad]

156. The major problem is that

It's capitalism at work...

There's more money to be made by building war toys than building affordable housing.

The sharks and leeches building "housing" make more money at lower cost by building huge monstrous single-family dwellings or crap-condo's than building affordable housing for the rest of us...

There should be a HUGE, WPA type government program to design, develop and build affordable, human scale housing.

Housing became a "commodity" in the late 70s (at least in California)...like pork bellies or AT&T stock. Houses no longer represent housing but reflect the flipping behavior of a minority of leeches and sharks who sold to one another jacking up the prices with each flip...

It would take a massive government effort to change houses back to housing...

[redqueen]

106. My pleasure!

Good luck... :hug:

My dad was born into a wealthy family, and he had lots of education, but he still taught me to always respect the working class. Sadly, by the time I was born he'd spent all of his inheritance, bummer! :P

[NashVegas]

107. I've Got To Credit You For One Thing

The BA in history. At a time when it seems almost everyone is getting a specialized degree, you went for the general. I think that was a very smart thing to do, over the long haul.

Look at Jon Stewart: while so many broadcast hopefuls zero in on communications specialties, he's hosting a nightly tv show on a psych BA.

[WildEyedLiberal]

186. I ALWAYS get asked "what are you going to do with a history degree?"

The people who've swallowed the CW that you have to have a degree in a "field" like engineering or medicine or business to be "successful" assume I'm either going to be a teacher (I'm not) or else starve to death in a cardboard box. After they ask me whether I'm going to be a teacher, they always scratch their heads: "well what else can you do with a history degree?"

My reply is, "what CAN'T I do with a history degree"? That usually shuts them up. The liberal arts are extremely undervalued - not a surprise in our assembly-line wage slave corporate profiteering world.

[Yupster]

195. History major here too

I taught high school history for nine years. Went into business 16 years ago.

[NashVegas]

201. Underhyped for Training Purposes, IMO

Yesterday I attended a party where I met a Landscape Architect. He had to have a specific degree to use that title in the state where he lives.

You have to wonder how top notch landscaping ever got done before the PhD was invented. Obviously, it was, and today's required eduction credits are sheer bullshit.

Meanwhile, the folks studying economics are going to be pulling down 100k per year by the time they're 25, if they wish.

[OhioChick]

97. K&R

:kick:

[kskiska]

112. A college degree today = a 1950s high school diploma

Not everyone went on to college back then, but if you weren't fortunate enough to go, you weren't condemned to blue collar work. There were loads of office jobs available - clerks, typists, etc., and it was possible to work your way up into higher positions, which doesn't seem possible today.

My father attended a trade school and worked in the auto body business, which he returned to after serving in WWII. Then he got a lucky break due to his interest in astronomy, having built his own telescope, was hired by a large aerospace optics plant as an inspector. He retired 30 years later as an engineering aide. He did the same work (and was more versatile) as an engineer, but lacked the degree. He did secret government work on projects for the first moon shot and has all sorts of certificates from Washington. He's also worked on restoring vintage planes at Andrews AFB to be exhibited at the Smithsonian.

I feel we got a much better public school education back then than is available today, as the assumption is that just about everyone will attend college.

[Fovea]

116. My message to the working poor of America

Buy more guns, go play Robin Hood.

The Uber rich fear nothing, except the poor. Too bad they have made so goddamn many of them.

It is getting very close to the time when some income redistribution takes place. You see, my ultra wealthy friends, it is a lot nicer when you let the government do it, rather than a guy with a gun whose kids haven't eaten in two days.

[Tyler Durden]

124. Shhh.

When you actually say it out loud, you give the rich the chance to build better defenses and to ban guns.

Let them be oblivious: it won't change what they do, but when the bottom half of society gets brave enough....


BOOM! BOOM! OUT GO THE LIGHTS!

[redqueen]

147. I love that song!

:hi:

[Fovea]

167. I'm sorry...

Did I say that out loud?

[BlooInBloo]

117. Education + intelligence guarantees plenty in a stupid, stupid America.

[redqueen]

120. What?

:shrug:

[cgrindley]

129. You need to bury the competition's education

a good quality undergraduate degree and at least two graduate degrees as a bare minimum. If you stop at the MA level, make sure that one of the two is a professional degree, eg BA, MA, LLB... or BCom, CA, MPA

It's a horrible thing to suggest, but I think that it's an absolute necessity for anyone under 20 to have this outcome as their plan. Without that sort of education, I think that people are more or less doomed to poverty... unless they get an RN

[BlooInBloo]

140. Bullshit. Undergrad degrees are largely the same (ie bad). One good grad degree suffices.

[cgrindley]

142. Not right now, not for boomers but for Gen X's children

in twenty years' time, no one will give a shit about life experience. the decision to hire locally vs outsource or automate will be entirely based on how many scraps of sheepskin an applicant will be able to produce. college attendance will become even more mandatory than it already is. it will also become a lot more expensive, even at state schools.

[ProudDad]

158. I'm glad I'll probably be dead by then

"in twenty years' time, no one will give a shit about life experience."

What a bleak, nasty, brutish world that will (continue?) to be...


I hope we wise up and throw off the oppressors...build a better future than that...



Actually, what's more likely thanks to all of those "educated" folks who "run the show" and the ignorance and greed institutionalized in the capitalist system, global climate change will take care of any mammalian problems by eliminating mammals.

[cgrindley]

161. Yeah, me too

it's going to suck. my soon to be son (-2.5 months and counting) is going to hate it, but at least it won't be my fault. the world's fate was pretty much decided by whatever idiot thought up excessive development, globalism, free trade and so on... the world is doomed.

my kids (13, 13, 16) said that of all the futures they've seen in the movies, Soylent Green is the future that they think is most likely to happen.

[ProudDad]

163. I may not sound like it all the time here

but I am hopeful.

I hope that enough people get enough sense to stop this madness...

I hope that most of us can find SOME happiness along the way ... I certainly do in my real (non-virtual, non-argumentative) life.

And even if mammals fail, the Earth still has a few billion years to try something else.

"Nature bats last" and that's a good thing...

[Selatius]

178. Humans are more likely to kill each other off than be finished off by global warming.

Nuclear warfare still surpasses global warming as the greatest threat to the continued existence of humans. if humans decided to "lay everything on the table" and go at it, the planet will be shrouded in darkness for several years due to billions of tons of ash, dust, and soot flung high into the atmosphere as if earth were struck by a massive asteroid.

[pinto]

150. In California, one answer to the income disparity for home health care workers has

been a public/private partnership to provide a negotiated wage (via collective bargaining) and health benefits. While results are mixed (each county/region has it's own agreement with In Home Support Services workers as independent contractors) fully 92% have hourly incomes significantly higher than minimum wage and a level of health care benefits, ranging from basic health services to a full package of health/vision/dental.

While not a magic bullet for home health care workers, by a long shot, the collective bargaining agreements (instituted in 1998) have resulted in better care for eligible recipients (Medicaid clients), less turn over in the work force and a better wage/benefit package in all regions. The best package (Santa Cruz, I believe) from recent data is an hourly wage of $10.01 and a complete health/vision/dental benefit.

While not unionization in the strictest sense, the collective bargaining system provides some measure of wage and benefit security in a tough job that was traditionally minimum wage/no benefit.

[AlCzervik]

151. is "Better" a euphemism for taking on a 3rd, possibly 4th job?

[NMMNG]

191. Mayor Jim Naugle thinks so

He claimed that the if people couldn't afford housing in South Florida it was because they were lazy, and that they should get off their couches and get second or even third jobs. Well what if we do work multiple jobs (or the equivalent of such) and still don't make enough to afford them? Are we still lazy?










http://rpv.blogspot.com/2006/05/jim-naugle-ticks-off-lenin-sentinel.html

[aikoaiko]

189. My uncle was a janitor -- he retired to St. Petes in a 500K condo

He was thrifty and invested well.

:shrug:

[Deja Q]

194. Ah, but he could trust investors and came from a generation that cared.

[aikoaiko]

196. I'm not sure what you mean.

He was the investor -- and I'm not sure what you mean by a generation who cared.

[Nikia]

192. I would encourage individuals to get more education when practical

Such as helping promising high school students to get into 4 year college and get a good financial aid package and encourage working adults to take classes at community colleges who have the time, energy, and ambition.
Unfortunately, I know that these people are not necessarily destined for decent paying jobs when they graduate. For myself, I went to a good 4 year college and got a biology degree. After being out of college for six years, I finally got a job that paid me more than $30,000 per year.
Regradless though whether individuals who would have made under $10/hour (or inflationary equivalent) for their whole life are able to get an education and get paid twice as much, there are still a lot of people doing necessary work who are getting left behind. Many of those necessary jobs are hard work, harder in many senses than jobs that pay two or more times as much. People doing necessary jobs should not be paid poorly and treated poorly.