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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 06:44 PM
Original message
A little help, please, if you have time
I get emails from a right-leaning friend, and sometimes send her a Snopes link to set her straight. I just got this one, and it is so bad, that I would like to rebut it. She sent it to me, and about 50 other people, so I would like to do a "Reply All" with a good response, but need a good link to add to it - Snopes was no help on this one.

Thanks in advance for any help - here it is, in all its ignorance:


Subject: SS and the new senate bill

Mom was a homemaker and Dad worked all his life and paid into
SS. Dad has passed away and now Mom can barely make ends meet. While the
possible "illegal" alien in front of her at the grocery store buys the
name brands, Mom goes for the generic brands, and day old breads She
doesn't have out of state calling on her phone, because she can't afford
it and shops at the thrift shops and dollar stores. She considers having
a pizza delivered once a week "eating out." She grew up during the
depression, watched her husband go overseas to fight in WW II a year after
their marriage, and then they went on to raise, feed and clothe 5
children, struggling to pay tuition for parochial schools.

The Senate voted this week to allow "illegal" aliens access to Social
Security benefits. I'm sorry, but how can the Senate justify this slap in
the face to born and bred, or naturalized citizens.

It is already impossible to live on Social Security alone. If they give
benefits to "illegal" aliens who have never contributed, where does that
leave us that have paid into Social Security all our working lives?

Attached is an opportunity to sign a petition that requires citizenship
for eligibility to receive Social services. If you do not wish to sign the
petition yourself, please forward on to anyone you think might be
interested.

PETITION FOR: President Bush Mr. President: The petition below is a
protest against the recent vote of the senate which was to allow illegal
aliens access to our social security! We demand that you and all
congressional representatives require citizenship for anyone to be
eligible for social services in the United States


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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's nonsense. There's a big difference between "social security benefits"
and "social services." What bill? What senate vote? What a bunch of nonsense. Where does one begin to rebut a total and complete fabrication?
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's important to read this dribble, even if frustrating.
First, what other economic factors are occurring that are making this woman have to buy day old bread, etc.?

How much is she paying for medical care or medications, thanks to the Big Pharma legislation?

How are the rising fuel prices affecting her? If she drives, is she limited to the closest "super" store, where the prices are higher due to destroying local price competition?? Or, how about the fast rising grocery prices, related to the fuel prices?

Is she being fiscally pinched by the utility companies that are more and more being privatized for profit? How much does it cost her to keep warm?

Second, if all the "illegals" became "legal" tomorrow, imagine the income tax that would flood this country's coffers.Which funds Social Security. And, they would ALL have to be paid minimum wage, which would raise wages for us all.

Just my dos centavos. :-) MKJ
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I appreciate your help - my partial response so far
has the facts that illegal immigrants HAVE ALREADY been paying into SS without the ability to withdraw for years (with a link for that). But the email is so twisted, I am having trouble putting something coherent together.

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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Good luck with that, then.
MKJ
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh, yes, and then there's the "possible" illegal in the grocery line
How does she know? Are all Latinos illegal unless proven otherwise?

How does she know that the Latino in the grocery line buying expensive stuff isn't a prosperous business owner or a professional?

Do I detect a hint of racism?

Oh, and here's a little something from factcheck.org:
-------
Republicans are tagging Democratic opponents across the country for wanting to "give Social Security benefits to illegal immigrants." But nobody's proposing paying benefits to illegals, not until and unless they become US citizens or are granted legal status.

The charge is a mis-characterization of an amendment offered during debate of the immigration bill that passed the Senate last May with a healthy bi-partisan majority, 62-36. The amendment would change current law to prevent immigrants from getting credit toward future Social Security benefits from taxes paid before they have legal permission to work.

The measure has become a popular campaign issue for Republicans, particularly incumbent House members who raise it against their Democratic challengers. We have counted 29 GOP ads attacking Democrats with various versions of this misleading claim. Similar misconceptions about the measure were spread as part of a chain e-mail last spring and summer.
----------
So the legislation actually does the opposite of what the rightwingers say, not that facts ever bothered a rightwinger.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. ::::MY RESPONSE: Tell me what you think?!
Edited on Sat Aug-11-07 07:21 PM by FLDem5


:::: sigh :::::: Does NO ONE actually CARE what is true and what is false
anymore? People just believe whatever drivel drifts into their inbox? What
the hell?

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/82301

Bottom line: Illegal immigrants obtain fraudulent social security numbers
and actually do pay taxes, social security, etc from their paychecks. A
measure was proposed to deny them any claim to the money that they have paid
in. That measure was voted down.

"The Senate vote on this amendment is what is reproduced in the e-mail
quoted in the example block above. Although the message's text accurately
reflects the roll call vote that took place, the accuracy of its
characterization of those senators who voted "Yea" as voting "to give
illegal aliens Social Security benefits" is problematic for a number of
reasons:

1. The subject of the proposed amendment was not about giving (or denying)
Social Security benefits to illegal aliens; it was about whether a select
group of formerly illegal workers (i.e., those who might obtain legal
immigration status if the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2006 were
enacted) should be able to receive credit for payments they made into the
Social Security system using phony Social Security numbers (i.e., numbers
that were invalid or had been assigned to others). Such persons would still
be eligible to collect Social Security benefits in the future; they just
wouldn't receive credit for payments they had already made into the system.

2. The senators named didn't technically vote against Senator Ensign's
amendment itself; they voted (by a 50-49 margin) in favor of a Motion to
Table (i.e., a motion to permanently kill the pending matter and end any
further debate on the subject).

3. It was the potential passage of the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act
that created the situation Senator Ensign's amendment sought to prevent in
the first place (i.e., allowing formerly illegal workers to receive credit
for earlier Social Security payments), so the senators who ultimately voted
in favor of the immigration reform act might logically be considered at
least as responsible for the outcome as those who voted to table the Ensign
amendment.

If all of the above made your eyes glaze over, it boils down to this: While
the list of who voted which way is accurate, what was being voted on was a
motion to table (that is, stick in a closet in hopes that it will never be
seen again) a motion to deny former illegals credit for the Social Security
payments they made while in the U.S. illegally."

http://www.snopes.com/.../socialsecurity.asp


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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Incidentally, one thing almost all these RW e-mails have in common
is bogus claims about some person of color, poor person, women, GLBT person, Muslim, or anyone else the RW loves to hate, getting some benefit or making some demand that white, middle-class, straight men aren't eligible for.
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yella_dawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. This is insane rambling at best.
First we get a hook into any bigotry we feel when we're told that a possible illegal alien is living the high life while our poor hypothetical is suffering on stale bread.

This flies in the face of the right-wing mantra that those who work hardest benefit most.


Back to the hypothetical angle. She was married a year before her husband left for WWII? Granny is pushing 90, yet she orders pizza once a week? Please.


Parochial schools. Granny is a good, god fearing woman. Nice touch.

What bill does this reference. I've heard nothing, and you can bet Lou Dobbs would be on it like white on rice if such a thing occurred.

And, of course, the fact that undocumented workers pay a shitload in SSI taxes.

This is some real sick shit. You can't rebut it because there is no substance. It is emotional claptrap and poorly constructed at that. This is at the Limbaugh level of propaganda (the crappy end of the scale).



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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. The problem is not the 'illegals', but the fact that desperate people
can be hired for rock-bottom wages.

If it was a level playing field, they would have no advantage in the US over US citizens; but then, the development of their countries would not have been held back, so they not want to leave them, in the first place, and what's more, there would be thriving trade between those and the US. And not just to the benefit of the CEOs of the multinational predators.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. argh. my email back to her would begin:
if you want to continue our friendship please stop sending me these right-wing, bigoted, hate mongering pieces of drivel that confuse and twist up issues. i get the fact that you hate mexicans. and i'm still willing to be your friend in spite of that. i get that you worship george bush. i get the fact that you think illegals should die. i get the fact that your so-called christian upbringing didn't do a shits worth of good teaching you about compassion for those less fortunate.

(okay, so maybe i wouldn't say the last couple of lines there)

but when you send me this ignorant slop (that can't even distinguish between social security and social services) it only serves to make me more aware of your desperate need for an education and the obvious fact that you (pick one) dropped out of high school, never attended college, dropped out of college, didn't learn shit when you were at college.

now, i could send you countless petitions and articles about impeaching this criminal in the white house, and how the gop is ruining our country, and how these republik laws have made you less safe, and less prosperous, and less financially stable than you probably have ever been. it would bring me great joy to be able to share with you 24/7 what a motherfucker i believe george bush is and the republik party as a whole, but i don't. because i value our friendship. so...if YOU value our friendship you will cease and desist with the crap you send me. and we can pretend that it never happened (so long as it never happens again)

in the meantime, here are several links i have, once again, taken my time to try to educate you with:




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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Well,
:spray: MKJ
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. Can you name the domain
Edited on Sat Aug-11-07 07:33 PM by blogslut
...that the petition links to? Could be the originating entity the email came from. Meaning that it may be a faux email, started by some neocon marketing firm.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. there is no link in the email - it is just the above text
and a list of people's names and city/states.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
14. A brief perusal of the internets....
provides the following articles/links. Unfortunately this material actually requires reading..which is probably the most significant obstacle in trying to get any 'true-believer' into a little mind-expansion.

Report - Southern Poverty Law Center
Close to Slavery: Guestworker Programs in the United States
March 12, 2007
Close to Slavery: Guestworker Programs in the United States
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Under the current system, called the H-2 program, employers brought about 121,000 guestworkers into the United States in 2005 — approximately 32,000 for agricultural work and another 89,000 for jobs in forestry, seafood processing, landscaping, construction and other non-agricultural industries.

These workers, though, are not treated like "guests." Rather, they are systematically exploited and abused. Unlike U.S. citizens, guestworkers do not enjoy the most fundamental protection of a competitive labor market — the ability to change jobs if they are mistreated. Instead, they are bound to the employers who "import" them. If guestworkers complain about abuses, they face deportation, blacklisting or other retaliation.

Federal law and U.S. Department of Labor regulations provide some basic protections to H-2 guestworkers — but they exist mainly on paper. Government enforcement of their rights is almost non-existent. Private attorneys typically won't take up their cause.

Bound to a single employer and without access to legal resources, guestworkers are:

* routinely cheated out of wages;
* forced to mortgage their futures to obtain low-wage, temporary jobs;
* held virtually captive by employers or labor brokers who seize their documents;
* forced to live in squalid conditions; and,
* denied medical benefits for on-the-job injuries.

House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel recently put it this way: "This guestworker program's the closest thing I've ever seen to slavery."

Congressman Rangel's conclusion is not mere hyperbole — and not the first time such a comparison has been made. Former Department of Labor official Lee G. Williams described the old "bracero" program — the guestworker program that brought thousands of Mexican nationals to work in the United States during and after World War II — as a system of "legalized slavery." In practice, there is little difference between the bracero program and the current H-2 guestworker program.

The H-2 guestworker system also can be viewed as a modern-day system of indentured servitude. But unlike European indentured servants of old, today's guestworkers have no prospect of becoming U.S. citizens. When their work visas expire, they must leave the United States. They are, in effect, the disposable workers of the U.S. economy.

This report is based on interviews with thousands of guestworkers, a review of the research on guestworker programs, scores of legal cases and the experiences of legal experts from around the country. The abuses described here are too common to blame on a few "bad apple" employers. They are the foreseeable outcomes of a system that treats foreign workers as commodities to be imported as needed without affording them adequate legal safeguards or the protections of the free market.

The H-2 guestworker program is inherently abusive and should not be expanded in the name of immigration reform. If the current program is allowed to continue at all, it should be completely overhauled. Recommendations for doing so appear at the end of this report.

http://www.splcenter.org/pdf/static/SPLCguestworker.pdf


Op-Ed: Immigration's Roman Circus

Roberto Lovato
TomPaine.com
Mar 01, 2007 12:00 AM EST

Sadly, the theatrics of the immigration debate take place within parameters as illusory as those of a digital Coliseum created for a movie or TV show. Right-wing Republicans—and some "pragmatic" Democrats and even "immigrant rights advocates"—say a flood of "criminal aliens" necessitates a multibillion-dollar "enforcement" program administered by the Department of Homeland Security and companies like Halliburton, Boeing and others feasting on the immigration-industrial complex. Left completely outside of the immigration arena are inconvenient facts, such as the results of a recent study by the Immigration Policy Center that showed that 18- to 39-year-old immigrant men of all ethnic groups are five times less likely to be incarcerated than U.S. citizens. Neither is there any discussion of how the cost of the proposed 700-mile wall could be much greater than what Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Calif., and Democratic presidential candidates Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., and Barack Obama, D-Ill., bargained for when they voted for the wall last year—perhaps as much as 25 times greater, for a total of more than $49 billion, according to the Congressional Research Service.

Even further beyond the very narrow borders of the current policy debate is the possibility that U.S. war policy in places like Colombia or its failed (and bipartisan) trade policies in Mexico and throughout the hemisphere will feed the endless cycle of social displacement and economic deprivation that drives people from the periphery to the core of the empire. Truth continues to be the first victim of the theatrics and gamesmanship of the ongoing immigration wars between the ships of the "left" and "right," ships that float on a fake sea for all to see.

The barbarians of the story, immigrants, are voiceless and chained to the deepest, quietest part of the immigration policy arena. These are the players who must again enter dramatically with a powerful roar of millions, as they did in 2006, if they are to alter the rules of the game played out in Washington, local and state legislatures and our television sets. Only then will a more realistic debate become possible, one that includes legalization and drops guest worker plans, funding for walls and the tragic, family-destroying political theater of raids. Perhaps at that point we can begin to consider how immigrants, moved to leave home because the epic failure of our foreign policies, comprehend what Edward Gibbon, historian of the decadence of the Roman Empire, called "the fairest part of the earth."

If immigrants themselves don't display something like the power of last year's truly spectacular marches, then we might as well skip the policy debate on C-SPAN in favor of a more dramatic and realistic rendering of the prevailing attitude on Capitol Hill towards immigration policy. That would be an episode of the HBO miniseries, "Rome," in which Brutus, friend and then foe of Caesar, declares, "Plebs love to see their betters fight. It's cheaper than theater and the blood is real."

© 2007 TomPaine.com. All rights reserved. Used by permission.




http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/llr/vol9/lipman.php

The Taxation of Undocumented Immigrants: Separate, Unequal, and Without Representation<*>

Francine J. Lipman<**>

B. Taxing Undocumented Immigrants
1. The IRS Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN)
a. The IRS Requires a Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN)

Because the U.S. government classifies undocumented immigrants as resident aliens, they are subject to the same federal income and employment taxes and filing and withholding requirements as U.S. citizens. Under the Code, every taxpayer must have a unique and permanent number.<131> Consequently, undocumented immigrants must obtain a TIN.<132> The IRS has used a TIN system to improve its “ability to identify and access database records; to match information provided on tax and information returns, statements, and other documents with the proper taxpayers; and to provide better customer service to taxpayers.”<133> For most non-business taxpayers, Social Security numbers (SSNs) serve as taxpayer identification numbers.<134> However, because undocumented immigrants are not eligible to work in the United States, they cannot obtain valid SSNs.<135>


b. The Problem: Unauthorized Workers Are Not Eligible To Obtain SSNs

SSNs have been issued to workers since the implementation of the 1935 Social Security Act.<136> The initial purpose of the number was to provide employers and the U.S. government the means to report or track Social Security earnings for purposes of payroll tax and retirement benefits calculations.<137> In the 1960s, computerization allowed the IRS and private businesses to rely on SSNs as a method of accumulating, sorting, and tracking information.<138> Despite persistent Congressional concern about unauthorized workers, the government issued Social Security cards to unauthorized workers until the early 1980s, and kept only internal records regarding their unauthorized status.<139> Beginning in 1982 and 1984, Social Security cards issued to unauthorized workers were marked “Not Valid for Employment,” and temporarily authorized workers received cards marked “Valid Only With INS Authorization.”<140>

In an effort to stop unauthorized workers from being hired, Congress enacted the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986.<141> This Act, among other things, required employers to have all new employees prove their identity and work authorization with specific documents.<142> Congress listed the Social Security card as an acceptable document evidencing proof of work authorization.<143> As a result of this mandatory obligation, there is now widespread use of counterfeit Social Security cards among unauthorized workers, making “it more common and easier than ever for undocumented workers to enter and function in the U.S. labor market.”<144>

In 1996, the Social Security Administration (SSA) began limiting its issuance of SSNs to individuals who are U.S. citizens, and alien individuals legally admitted for permanent residence or under another immigration category authorized for employment in the United States.<145> In response to this void, the IRS introduced a new taxpayer identification number for use by individuals who are not citizens or nationals of the United States and are not eligible for SSNs.<146> Qualifying individuals must apply for and use the newly created TIN on all their tax returns.<147>

............and Lest We Forget...
Report: War and Occupation in Iraq
Chapter 11: Other Issues
Cost of the War and Occupation
By Global Policy Forum and partners
April 2007
For the United States, the conflict has been extremely expensive – far more so than policymakers first estimated. Office of Management and Budget Director Mitch Daniels announced prior to the war that the cost would be around $50 billion,<3> but as of December 2006 Washington had actually had spent approximately $400 billion in direct government appropriations for the conflict. Clearly, these budget costs will continue to rise far further in 2007 and beyond.<4>

US federal war costs are buried in complex Pentagon budgets, but we know that they have risen from about $4 billion per month in 2003 to more than $8 billion per month in late 2006.<5> In fiscal year 2006 alone, Iraq war spending may have been as high as $120 billion and estimates suggest that 2007 spending could reach $170 billion.<6> To these costs must be added the budgets for Iraq reconstruction grants, the costs of building up Iraq’s military forces, the cost of secret intelligence operations, and more.

Future costs of the Iraq conflict will depend on the number of troops deployed, the nature of the military operations and the length of the conflict. With Washington sending 20,000 or more additional troops in the first half of 2007, spending will certainly increase substantially and could rise beyond $12 billion per month in 2007. So the budgetary cost may approach $600 billion by the end of 2007 and could eventually approach $1 trillion.

The US Federal budget figures, large as they are, greatly under-estimate the true cost of the war. Economists Linda Bilmes and Joseph Stiglitz point out that the budgeted costs do not account for the economic effect of military deaths and injuries (over 3,000 US soldiers have died and more than 23,000 have been wounded<7> ) for which death benefits, life insurance and medical treatment will be paid for long into the future.<8> Nor does it include the increased costs of armed forces recruitment, or demobilization costs. A real assessment of the costs, Bilmes and Stiglitz argue, should also take into account a wide array of other costs, ranging from the replacement and depreciation of military equipment<9> to macroeconomic costs such as higher costs of oil, interest paid on the national debt<10> and other long term negative impacts on the economy.<11> Bilmes and Stiglitz put the estimated total cost in a range from $1-2.2 trillion, an estimate they made prior to delivering the paper in January 2006.<12> But in a later version of the paper, published after about nine months, they concluded that the costs were running much higher and that a $2 trillion estimate was “low.”<13> The Iraq Study Group report, released in November 2006, used a $2 trillion figure as definitive.<14>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These enormous and upwardly-spiralling war costs soak up precious national resources that could be spent on schools, hospitals, transport, alternative energy and many other citizen priorities. Since the war is financed by Federal budget deficits, future generations will eventually be required to pay the bill.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
15. Well, if this came to me, I'd rebut it this way:
Sorry, you got it all wrong. That "possible illegal alien" in line is my cousin Art. He's from Puerto Rico, which the last time I checked, is a commonwealth of the US. He's buying name brand goods because he runs his own successful business and has put his 6 children through college after sending them to parochial schools. Now, like "Mom" I shop thrift stores and buy day old bread. Unlike "Mom" I also buy from the local Farmer's Market, thereby helping my neighbors by getting quality food. Funny, if she's so poor, she can have pizza delivered once a week? That's a huge expense, one I don't indulge in.

Funny that you said the Senate voted "this week" to allow illegal aliens to get Social Security benefits, since this did NOT happen. (I'd put a link to what bills passed this week here) What did happen occurred quite a while back, when the Senators voted NOT to allow illegals to use money paid into SSDI. (I'd put in a link to this amendment and the bill here.)

So remember this: get your facts straight and cite sources---and don't assume that that brown skinned person behind you is an illegal alien. He's probably as American as you are.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-11-07 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
16. All of these things have some commonalities and that makes me
believe that some failed ENG 101 students hired by the GOP are sitting in basement typing away and coming up w/these stories.

There are a ton of "social services" that would help this individual out, many of them in the private sector, as well as government sector. It should not be left out that bush signed the bill that took away energy assistance for many of the elderly, and has been opposed to spending any money domestically to aid those in distress. Virtually all of the funding for domestic spending has been through "pork", and cuts in programs have been deep.

FWIW, if someone writes this, and knows the person in question, why are they not helping to ensure this person has adequate housing, food, clothing and fuel? The whole thing is based on the RW notion
they have a heart, but they don't, "compassionate conservatism" left 3 minutes after bush took the Oath of Office.
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