Reality Check RE: Martial law in the US.

[Speck Tater]

I keep hearing horror stories about how Bush is going to declare martial law and round up all the liberals and turn the US into a military dictatorship. I think it's time for a little dose of reality.

Iraq is just a little bit larger than the state of Montana. Baghdad is about the size of the Dallas metro area. The green zone in Baghdad is roughly the size of a border two blocks out, in all four directions, from Central Park in Manhattan.

So the entire might of the invincible US military machine is unable to maintain effective control of an area the size of Montana, is fighting a constant battle to keep order in a city the size of Dallas metro, and actually has a moderate amount of control and security in an area encompassing a few square miles of lower Manhattan.

THIS is the mighty military machine that will be used to declare martial law and round up and control citizens in the United States of America which is 22 times larger than Iraq, and nearly a million times larger than the Baghdad green zone? This is the force that will impose military control over not only metro Dallas, but Chicago, Atlanta, San Fransisco, Los Angeles, Kansas City, 47 different Springfields, Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Denver, and so on and so on.

There will be no military dictatorship in the United States. Especially while that mighty invincible military is busy keeping law and order in four square miles of central Baghdad.

[rucky]

1. I'm not worried about enforcement,

I'm wondering what would stop him from declaring it... or suspending the elections. What would be the counter move?

[lazer47]

2. "Great Leader" Uncle Mao would be proud of that picture

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. These Threads Are Always Controversial...

But I assure you, you will wake up on 1/21/09 with new residents in the White House and hopefully they will be compes mentes...

[Cobalt-60]

111. The country locks up. Their masters money stops coming in.

And if they get rough, we show them what a real insurrection is like.

[struggle4progress]

131. If the SOB told you to commit suicide, would you? He doesn't have the authority

to cancel elections.

[jimshoes]

3. You think a little thing like trying

the impossible is some sort of hindrance to the megalomaniac in chief? Just because it can't work doesn't mean he won't try it.;-)

[sanskritwarrior]

4. Hate to tell you this sport

but the most troops in Iraq ever has been 165,000, right now.......We have nowhere near applied our "invincible military might "towards Iraq

Approximately 1,426,713 personnel are currently on active duty in the military with an additional 1,259,000 personnel in the reserve and National guard components........

Roughly 2.7 million are available and less than 10% of that number is ever in Iraq at any one time.......

Military takeover would be quite easy if all troops were used........Think before you post.....

[Mz Pip]

7. You are making one huge assumption

That is that these reserve and National Guard would go along with this.

I seriously doubt it.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[in_cog_ni_to]

10. My husband, the vet, says no way would the military stand for martial law. Their oath is to the

CONSTITUTION. NOT the psycho, but then there's Blackwater. THAT is who concerns me the most.:(

[sanskritwarrior]

13. Depends on the situation

if the declaration of Martial Law looked legit I know I would go along with it.......I suspect most soldiers would as well, if it looked like total bullshit, then no we wouldn't follow the orders.......

[in_cog_ni_to]

20. Well, since we have seen Directive 51 and many other Executive Orders and KNOW what they're planning

how could YOU NOT know it's total bullshit? You need to spread the word to your military buddies too, BTW. They NEED TO KNOW what this administration is doing.

Presidential Directive 51: Blueprint for Dictatorship
by dratman
Fri May 11, 2007 at 10:03:09 PM PDT



Released Wednesday, May 9, 2007 by the White House, this executive order, the National Security Presidential Directive/NSPD 51, uses the principle of the Unitary Executive, as propounded by Dick Cheney, to seize absolute power in the U.S. any time the president feels like putting the plan into effect.

In what follows, italicized text represents my paranoid ideas. I hope all such stupid, alarmist fantasies turn out to be entirely unjustified.

Get ready for a catastrophic terrorist attack in October of 2008, with the unfortunately necessary indefinite postponement of elections after a Presidential declaration of the state of emergency due to the current devastating circumstances.



Take note of the following:

(e) "Enduring Constitutional Government," or "ECG," means a cooperative effort among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the Federal Government, coordinated by the President, as a matter of comity with respect to the legislative and judicial branches and with proper respect for the constitutional separation of powers among the branches, to preserve the constitutional framework under which the Nation is governed and the capability of all three branches of government to execute constitutional responsibilities and provide for orderly succession, appropriate transition of leadership, and interoperability and support of the National Essential Functions during a catastrophic emergency...<snip>

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/12/03540/4788

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html

[sanskritwarrior]

33. Excuse me

how about letting us make the decision about what is bullshit and what is not, mkay???

If it is we will refuse to follow orders, if it is not bullshit, we will do our duty and fight anyone that represents a danger to the United States of America, even her own citizens......PAY ATTENTION, I SAID IF THE DANGER IS REAL, I DID NOT SAY I WOULD SHOOT DOWN CIVILIANS FOR THE HELL OF IT........

I can't wait for the first person to say I endorsed shooting civilians for chimpy mcfuckstick.......... :eyes:

[in_cog_ni_to]

43. Are MOST soldiers aware of what they're taking orders from? The psycho? Do they know the man

is a sociopath? Are they aware of what this administration is doing? How would they know this regime is LYING when they blow off a dirty bomb and blame it on Al Qaeda? ARE THEY AWARE OF WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH HERE? This regime is INSANE.

[Doremus]

52. I'm glad to know you would give careful consideration to any such orders.

Unfortunately, I'm not so confident that others in your ranks would be so circumspect.

A well-planned "disaster" could have the majority of the population begging to be protected from harm, regardless of the rights that would have to be relinquished.

No doubt that such an event would also convince the majority of the military that their cause was just and that dissenters were unpatriotic criminals in need of extinction.

[Mz Pip]

14. Even Blackwater

These guys are pretty much glorified security guards. They are in it for the money. Who is going to pay them the big bucks to enforce Marshall Law? Big Business? I can't see how chaos would be good for business.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[sanskritwarrior]

18. Blackwater glorified security guards?

WTF are you smoking, I have dealt with those guys in Iraq, most are former SF, Rangers, Delta Force, SEALS, etc........and those are just the Americans.........

I could envisions a scenario where Blackwater could deploy its 10,000 man reserve that is always on call here in the states in 48 hours or so........

Hell Blackwater is supposedly buying themselves Tanks, APC's and Attack Helicopters this year.........I take them most seriously, when I am in Iraq starting at the end of this year, I will make sure I never piss off the Blackwater guys, I don't want to dissapear.......

[Mz Pip]

21. What they are doing now

is providing private security. They get paid well for it but I don't see that translating into participating in some Marshall Law thing.

Beside 10,000 men deployed back here? They can't secure Iraq, what makes you think they could (even if they wanted to) take over this country?

There are 50,000 police in NYC alone and they can't control the crime in that city.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[sanskritwarrior]

26. All I'm saying is

so many people have this "it can't happen here attitude"..........

And the OP seems to think the US is devoting a huge chunk of our combat power to Iraq, we are barely using one hand over there......

[Mz Pip]

36. We can't control Iraq

BushCo doesn't have the support to pull off what would essentially be a coup. There is no reason to assume that the Blackwater militia would have any interest in particpating in Marshall Law here.

It would take a HUGE military to take over this country. No one has that kind of resources.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[sanskritwarrior]

38. If we were seriously trying in Iraq

we would control most of the country.......

During both of my tours, I could see how little effort the military was putting into it.......

[Mz Pip]

40. Why would the military

decide to put effort into controlling this country? Iraq is supposed to be the enemy. If the military doesn't want to put any effort into Iraq I hardly see why they would want to control the US.

Not putting effort into Iraq just shows me how little support this policy has with the military.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[sanskritwarrior]

44. WOW

you couldn't be more wrong........

I don't know how to talk to you, you take reality and then twist it to what you want to hear........

I say black, you say white...............

[Mz Pip]

51. Um,

what 'reality' are you talking about? You have quite a speculative senario going on here but you accuse me of being wrong.

THe existance of a military is not proof that they will turn against the citizens of their own country.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. Can you say Kent State?

I knew you could

Can you say Veterans of WW I in DC in 1930... (iirc) I knew you could

The military has taken actions against US Civilains more than one. I just mentioned the two best known

I could start with the Whiskey Rebelion, but hey... why bother

[Individualist]

126. I'll never understand how anyone can forget or ignore the Kent State Massacre

During a protest by students against the Vietnam War, a contingent of 28 Ohio National Guardsmen fired for 13 seconds. The rifle fire left four students dead, one permanently paralyzed, and eight others wounded.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/militaryhistory/collection/object.asp?ID=659

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. The military takes their orders from Dickhead Cheney. Iraq is gong swimmingly for him,.

Halliburton, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Blackwater and all his favorite OIL companies.

[Posteritatis]

82. Take 'em, yes. Follow 'em, yes. They're piss-poor on the "implementation" angle lately, though.. (nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. You are underestimating Mercs for the sake of it

by the way, if the price is right, you could have over two million mercs on American soil from all over the world

[Buck Rabbit]

99. There you are. Can I ask an off topic question?

I read about all the interrogated/tortured then executed bodies found dumped in the streets of Baghdad each night. We are often told that these body drops are being done by Sectarian militia that have infiltrated the police and Army. But I wonder how these nightly drops of dozens of bodies can occur without the perpetrators ever being caught? It seems to me that Death Squads disguised as Police or Army, many supposedly Mahdi though most likely Badr Corp, would not be popular with you Army folk? Why aren't they ever caught?

Then being an old guy, I think back to operation Phoenix during Viet Nam, and think if I wanted to do that in Iraq, wouldn't I want to hire the hardest core, mercenary types I could find that are virtually un-policed and not subject to military (or any other) code of conduct?

Am I paranoid, on this subject?


(Edited out extra word.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Think Central America

and you are closer to the truth.

After all, those bodies started apearing after Negroponte went over

[Buck Rabbit]

103. Well I started with that, but then I thought

even the CIA is subject to certain oversight and eventual disclosure. Wouldn't it be a better job to outsource?

[tom_paine]

129. Safe journey and safe tour. Come back well and whole, sir.

I know we got off on the wrong foot, but I hope you checked back and saw my apologies on that thread. :patriot:

I find it a bit unnerving that you, who clearly has on-the-ground-knowledge would make a comment like this: I take them most seriously, when I am in Iraq starting at the end of this year, I will make sure I never piss off the Blackwater guys, I don't want to dissapear...

Was a sad, frightening and :grr: enraging circumstance where a person serving inthe US Armed Forces should have to feel like that, and adding insult to injury those mercs are making in a month what underpaid troops make in half a year.

But look at the Tillman story. 'Nuff said.

What has our beloved nation become...what is it BECOMING :grr: :mad: :patriot: :mad:

As I said, come back safe, sir.

[jgraz]

24. Blackwater has one advantage over our military and national guard

They haven't spent the past 4 years getting the shit beat out of them in Iraq. Anybody else wonder if that's an intentional part of the plan?

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. I do. They want our military occupied in Iraq, so Blackwater...who DOESN'T take an oath to the

Constitution, can play army for the rogue regime.

[knight_of_the_star]

80. Not enough in blackwater to make that work

10,000 men to hold down a country of 300 million is something that historians will be laughing at for all time after it is attempted.

[jgraz]

31. Even now, with the evangelical takeover?

There are a lot of members of the military who think their oath is to the Bible and George Bush. Where will they stand if Chimpy tells them God commanded him to be Dicktater for Life?

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20061231_chris_hedges_americas_holy_warriors

This article is one of many that should scare the crap out of you.

[in_cog_ni_to]

42. Oh, I KNOW! I watched Michael Weinstein, "With God on Our Side" today on C-SPAN 2

and the things going on in the military with religion is unbelievable! Their plan is to have a CHRISTIAN MILITARY. West Point teaches a class from some religious textbook. Weinstein's D-I-L went to West Point and was told to go out and recruit CHRISTIANS to go to West Point.

Read these articles! :scared:

http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/urgent_issues.html


Pentagon Christian Embassy

The Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), a watchdog group dedicated to protecting the religious freedoms of all U.S. military personnel, is calling on the Defense Department's Inspector General to immediately launch an investigation into the appearance of senior military officers, dressed in uniform and in their Pentagon offices, openly discussing their religious commitment and their strategy to bring religion into the military.

MRFF has presented publicly a promotional video where six senior Pentagon military officers, and several senior Pentagon civilian officials, appear to violate numerous established Department of Defense policies, regulations and core values. At the same time, MRFF released a new compliance report detailing pervasive violations
of religious freedom in the U.S. military during the last six months.

http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/

[billyoc]

37. I wouldn't worry too much, they have enough trigger pullers to maybe

take and hold the Bronx. Maybe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. I don't

here are the two probably scenarios in my mind, actually three

Guard units are moved away from home state and deployed in somebody else's city. The problem with shooting at your neighboors goes away, and they will obey orders

Ok that is the worst case

The next scenario is that units choose to follow orders while others do not, and there lies your recipee for the begining of a civil war

The next scenario is that our resident in chief uses mercs, and kiddies blackwater are not the only ones in business. There are plenty of mercenary units around the world that will take the contract. Mercs will only be reinforced with LOYAL units

The last one is that they will plainly disobey orders, and I doubt that will happen...

In theory it should, but Kent University should teach all of you the truth

[The Stranger]

152. That is WAY too much of a fucking gamble.

Leaving it all to whether or not your "serious doubt" is correct really doesn't cut it.

[Mike Daniels]

162. Agreed, it's kind of hard to achieve a military takeover if the military refuses to go along

and I'm pretty comfortable in stating that I don't think that the military is likely to take orders of that particular nature from anyone in the current administration.

[Speck Tater]

19. OK. Let's take a closer look

(I like your condescending use of "sport". It does make you sound superior. Definitely a point for you side.)

OK, suppose everybody who is manning a ship and refueling bombers and adjusting radar antennas, etc. etc., suppose every single one of those active duty and reserve personnel is given a rifle and sent out into the streets. With ten times the troops we have in Iraq we could tame ten times the area we have tamed in Iraq. In other words, 40 square miles of densely populated metropolitan area.

OMG! We could completely control an area 1/30th the size of Rhode Island! You're right! Of course that still leaves the other approximately 3,718,655 square miles outside the green zone.

That also assumes that all the reserves, upon seeing their own neighborhood threatened with storm troopers, are going to report in to go terrorize someone else's neighborhood. Nope. That ain't gonna happen.

[sanskritwarrior]

28. LOL

you have no idea what a lot of American soldier think of the public......

there is some study out there, done in 2005 in which 75% of all soldiers surveyed believe they are more moral than the American public, they believe they are better suited to rule the US than a civilian govt.........There was a lot of scary stuff in it.....

Damn I need to go find it........

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Army Times

I remember readying it, and the first one came out in '2003

[Buck Rabbit]

104. Is it broken out by branch of service?

I am betting the Marines would be at about 90%.

[jgraz]

34. Y'know, if Georgie kept cable and internet porn online, half the population probably wouldn't notice

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Do you have any idea how a military operation

actually works?

No, this is not hollywood, or Red Dawn for that matter

It is a good thing most Americans have NO CLUE how a coup works

[AntiFascist]

136. Comparing Iraq to the United States, in the first place, is not realistic....

how many Americans know how to make IEDs or are willing to become suicide bombers? We are more like cattle ready to taken off to slaughter.

[knight_of_the_star]

79. Thats making some huge assumptions

Consider the following:

There are 300 million people in the US. If EVERY soldier the US had including NG and reserves were mobilized for martial law then you would have 1 soldier per 150 people. Even if you added in the local police departments who have similar massive disparities you still have the numbers working strongly against that.

That and a huge chunk of the military in terms of numbers are NOT combat troops but support personnel who are needed to keep the soldiers in the field. That also assumes all the soldiers and police would enforce martial law and I bet enough of them would say fuck no for it to be impossible to enforce.

That and I'm pretty sure there's more gun owners who know what they're doing if it comes down to that in this country than there would be soldiers and police to enforce martial law. That and they would be fighting to control the entire US as opposed to one country the size of say California in terms of population and land area, the sheer scale of what they would have to control is beyond the numbers they would have.

[glitch]

85. Don't forget the police forces they've spent decades militarizing a la the war on drugs.

And while I do think they are stupid, arrogant, ignorant, greedy, desperate and malevolent enough to try it I do not think they will succeed. I don't even think they'll come close. But that won't keep them from doing a lot of damage.

[windbreeze]

105. and how many of the troops in Iraq are reservists and ng???

and what is the NG??? each individual state's only defense, against enemies, foreign and domestic(I would consider a declaration of Martial Law=a type of domestic enemy, wouldn't you?).....so now...why would the NG be in Iraq again??especially when we had regular army/marines that could be there.... to weaken them??...so they aren't in country??..and how many units of NG...when returning from Iraq have had to leave all their equipment behind??? which again, makes them what??? unable to defend anything, right??? This man has been attempting to take over every state's NG, since he took office...gotta be a reason for that..let's also not forget mercenaries..(blackwater) and UN troops...shall we...

I say, he'd have no problem whatsoever..and I have a hard time believing that all the signing statements, exe. orders are for nothing....plus the Mil.Comm.Act/Patriot Act....When I see someone deliberately putting all their ducks in a row, as they continue to do, when I see them trash the Constitution, tell our Congress to kiss off, defy the Justice system...then act as though WE have NO rights...frankly, I don't see all those things happening for NO reason...So the thing we need to figure out beforehand...is, IF there is an election, who we could elect that would hamper the nwo agenda...because imo, IF * leaves office as scheduled...it will only be because "they" know the next person taking office can be counted upon to keep on, keeping on...

Maybe some people need to check out FEMA, it's history, it's power and what it's been up too while we weren't watching...and the many Executive Orders that are in place...I know emergencies have to be planned for...but..do we trust the current regime quite this much..I guarantee you, I don't...
wb

[Hippo_Tron]

155. They would have to pull a lot of troops out of key positions in other places overseas

And they aren't going to do that.

[LanternWaste]

161. You believe all U.S. troops would...

You believe all U.S. troops would be recalled to stateside duty, leaving pockets of military vaccums throughout the world to ensure Martial Law?

[Mz Pip]

6. Won't happen

This guy is polling at best in the low 30%s. Our military is stuck in Iraq and probably not too happy about it. Who would be there to enforce Marshall Law? Our local police? Fat chance they will support a Union buster regime.

Besides, this country is too diverse and just too damn big to be controlled by the government. Our population understands the true meaning of the 2nd Amendment - to protect us from our government. That is what our founding fathers had in mind when that was put in the Constitution.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[maseman]

12. The far right-wing taking over is

nuts. My neighbor is a right-wing nut job. But he's about 75 and it takes him two days to mow his yard. I know I could take him down if I need to.

Joking aside, Shrub's inner-circle is too small to take over the country. Why do you think they are playing so hard to keep the AG from resigning or getting impeached? The mis-administration is down to a few loyalists left. Rummy is mostly gone, Wolfowitz has seen better days, Libby is out of it, Powell is retired, Condi seems to be MIA, the Generals seem to be retiring nearly every day and then voicing their discontent, the Dems are in control of the House and Senate, etc. Plus his approval is 32%. You need a little higher approval rating to "win-over" the people.

You got dead-eye Dick, Shrub, Rove and the Supreme Court (which is the biggie by the way) and that is it.
Would be good for cable news ratings and talk radio though.

[EFerrari]

98. It's martial law. And how many did it take to control NOLA? n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

156. That's one city where a large amount of the population had already left

[pinto]

8. I think the buzz about martial law in the US is hyperbolic,

to say the least. The response to a catastrophic event in Washington is a plan for the succession of the government, is not new, and not an imminent danger - as the general erosion of the balance of power in DC *is*. I favor fighting the real, current threats to our liberties.

Just my two cents worth.

[in_cog_ni_to]

9. ONE WORD......

Blackwater.

[warren pease]

11. A few more words:

There's also DynaCorp, MPRI, Vinnell Corp., KBR, Aegis Defense Services (UK) and a few more from around the world -- from Chile to South Africa -- the US is paying (well, actually we are) to supplement DA TROOPS.

wp

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. yep. We are so screwed. Think it's time to get me a gun?

:scared:

[sanskritwarrior]

16. Don't forget

Custer battles, Wackenhut, Triple canopy, and others.......

It is estimated that the Defense Contracting companies can summon 150,000 paid soldiers in 72 hours and have them armed, equipped and deployed in 96..........

[rzemanfl]

22. There are a lot of people who can get their guns and be out in

the streets in five minutes.

[Speck Tater]

23. Boy, add all those to the other mercenaries and...

There are almost enough troops to bring 1/10th of Rhode Island under control.

Now try bringing rural mountainous areas in Oregon and Tennessee, and Montana, and Colorado, and Idaho under control. HAHAHA! That ain't gonna happen!

[Mz Pip]

25. And all of

the gun owners in Berkeley and San Francisco! I'm probably the only liberal I know who doesn't own a gun.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[in_cog_ni_to]

32. I've NEVER owned a gun. I hate them, but have been thinking seriously about getting one.

:scared:

[Mz Pip]

39. I grew up around guns

I could hit a target accurately by time I was 16. But I never had any desire to have them around the house when my kids were growing up.

I don't know. I know people get all wigged out about BushCo but they have always struck me as being pretty much incompetent at whatever they try to do. Marshall Law would be no different. They'd screw that up too.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[in_cog_ni_to]

60. I grew up with guns too...a dad and 3 brothers who loved to hunt.

I just never felt the need or desire to own a gun. I hate 'em. I would never allow one in the house with my son here, but he's older now and it looks like it might be a good time to own one.:scared:

I always wonder what anti-war people like General Wes Clark and General Batiste would do if this regime declared Martial Law?

[Mz Pip]

63. Clark and Batiste

aren't the only high profile military persons who oppose BushCo.

I've got a good friend who teaches at the military graduate school in Monterey. The military is none too happy with BushCo these days so I doubt they'll be supporting any Marshall Law plan.

I would suspect that if BushCo tried to pull something like that he'd have little support within our current military.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[sanskritwarrior]

47. Keep deluding yourself

that Blackwater and the US military don't have the power to do anything......

If Martial Law every came, it would all be over for the civilian population in days, weeks at most.......

[Speck Tater]

71. Shock and Awe? Just like it was "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq in days? Right. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. I hate to agree with Sanskrit

but you have no clue of what you're talking about

MOST of the population would obbey orders and stay at home.

Taking control in a coup is so damn easy it's not even funny

Look, you are thinking a hollywood script, but in reality it is EASY to take control of the country

And... many in the right WOULD GLADLY support the military and paramilitaries, because they agree with this

[TheWatcher]

117. I hate to agree with him too

But when you're right, you're right.

[NickB79]

163. Martial law would destroy the economy

People would quickly lose their jobs, seeing as how the economy would crash as rampant consumerism was replaced with scared people spending their money on basic staples like food and fuel. With tens of millions of unemployed people roaming the streets, how long do you think law and order would be able to be maintained?

[nadinbrzezinski]

165. Yep, just like it happened in Chile

or Argentina, or Bolivia, or franco's spain

Not really, but hey don't let hisory smack you in the face

[TheWatcher]

116. The idea really gets you wet doesn't it?

[Doremus]

41. Except you've forgotten the lesson that was clearly demonstrated in 2001:

That a goodly percentage of the population can be very easily persuaded to not only acquiesce to practically any infringement of their liberties, but wholeheartedly, actively SUPPORT it.

If the proper disaster were staged and the propaganda machine generated sufficient fear in the populace, they wouldn't need a lot of muscle. Most people would beg to be caged, cuffed and cloistered .... for their own safety, of course.

A relatively small military/mercenary force would be more than ample to handle dissidents.



Never underestimate the number of people who value their own skins far more than lofty concepts like freedom and liberty.

[scarletwoman]

45. What people ALSO need to remember is that rw talk radio has been sowing hatred & division

for many years now. Not only would many people in the U.S. passively
acquiesce, there would no doubt be MANY quite eager to join in on rounding up whomever they were told needed to be rounded up.

sw

[southerncrone]

70. Just ask the Germans of the '40's.

[Doremus]

76. Absolutely right.

And not only to save their own skins, but for the potential power, prestige and PROFIT.

Too, too many would be only so happy to rat out their neighbors. Add "patriotism" to the mix and I'd put the percentage of willing participants at upwards of 90% or more.

[Mz Pip]

48. A close election

that was peacefully resolved is a whole lot different than the rounding up of citizens and throwing them in jail.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Doremus]

Again, you underestimate the human tendency to save their own skin at any cost.

You also underestimate the criminal minds of Cheney et al and their ability to devise another catastrophe that would have Americans clamoring for the government to keep them safe at any cost.

These are the lessons from 9/11 and the Patriot Act. The people will agree with anything if they are fearful enough.

[Mz Pip]

59. Okay

let's assume what you say is true.

Of what value would it be to Cheney and company to throw this country into Marshall Law? Chaos is not good for business. The stock market would tank. A depression would ensue.

I don't doubt the criminality of Cheney and BushCo. But they are all about the bottom line and putting this country through the kind of chaos that declaring Marshall Law, rounding up dissidents, killing people in the streets with Blackwater operatives - it would not be a good business move.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Doremus]

62. Again, all you need to do is think back to 9/11.

They kept the markets closed for what, 3 days?

Afterwards, business as usual. "Go shopping," he said. They did.

[Mz Pip]

65. Big difference

between 9/11 and Marshall Law.

Who will be going shopping with troops in the street, rounding up citizens who disagree. It would shut down the country.

Not a good business plan IMHO.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[in_cog_ni_to]

68. At this point, they don't care. They have all the money they could ever need.

Dictators live well. The subjects don't.

[Doremus]

73. Why would there be troops in the street?

We had "Free Speech Zones" for several years and few among the general populace batted an eyelash.

Why do you think they would NEED troops in the street?

A willing populace needs no other coercion than the promise of safety.

How do you think Hitler seized power? Surely not by announcing his real plans. No, he devised an "event" whereby his fellow Germans were HAPPY to have such a "strong, courageous" leader.

Fooled them, huh?

Do you think Cheney and the PNACers are any less cunning? If so, you have seriously underestimated them and the legacy of our own "soccer moms."

[in_cog_ni_to]

75. We STILL have Free Speech Zones. Proud2blib was just put in one the other day in Kansas.

Just so you know they do still exist.:hi:

[Doremus]

77. There you go.

If we still have them NOW, 6 years out and with a Dem majority, is there any doubt a president for life would have no trouble taking care of a few straggly dissenters?

Rhetorical question.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. And how many outside the Net roots batted an eye over

the FISA vote two weeks ago?

[Doremus]

121. Yup. Few even KNOW about it let alone object. n/t

[knight_of_the_star]

83. Just to point out with the Nazis

At no point did Hitler ever do something as blatant as come out and declare martial law while he was in charge of the Third Reich. He ruled through fear of force, not direct force, because fear will do the job better than actual force. The Germans probably would have taken notice if in peacetime there were soldiers on every streetcorner keeping order as opposed to people disappearing at 2 am.

[Doremus]

84. Agreed! I don't know why otherwise intelligent DUers would think for a minute

that Cheney&Co. would be so stupid as to announce their intentions.

After a "terrorist" dirty bomb, suspension of liberties would seem a natural consequence. Indeed, the terrified people, made moreso by the formidable propaganda machine, would insist on nothing less.

[knight_of_the_star]

87. You missed my point

The OP was talking about a declaration of martial law and knowing Bushco they might do something like that as subtlety has never been their strong point. It took time to get to the Gestapo keeping Germany under its boots, something like two years before they could actually act with the powers they did and if another 9/11 happens I doubt Bush will be able to force that into place effectively and quickly enough before any resistance breaks out.

That and if Bush goes so far as to suspend elections for ANY reason that will be about as smart as stepping on a live grenade minus the pin, Germany didn't have our tradition of electoral democracy while here there has NEVER been a suspended federal election, not even during the Civil War when it could have been best justified. Doing something like that would be a good way to push people who normally wouldn't act into the resistance very quickly.

[Doremus]

120. They've been working on it for 6 years.

How many more do you think they need?

They've been writing executive orders and signing statements and passing legislation all along ... what stone is left unturned? You know the answer to that.

All that remains is the actual "event."

After that the well-planned pieces fall into place and the people will plead for security. It will be seen as a good thing, just as it was after 9/11.

The people will wave their flags, go shopping and thank god that George Bush is their president. They will eagerly rat out "terrorist-lovers," US, whom the military will easily take care of.

Oh, eventually people will realize they were had ... but by then the game's over.

[knight_of_the_star]

160. I don't think they'll be so easily had this time

The first time was before Afghanistan, before Iraq, before all the rarara of the "war on terror". If we have another terrorist attack now, after all the alleged successes, I don't think the reaction will be to rally around the flag but to say, "You did all this and we STILL suffered a major attack? And now you want to suspend democracy for our own good? What the hell is wrong with you?"

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Chaos? What the fuck are you talking about?

A good plan will take over the country in 72 hours and a police state, a fascist state, is ideal for business

Damn pick up a history book!

[localroger]

118. First, these guys are nuts

Of what value would it be to Cheney and company to throw this country into Marshall Law?

For one thing it would prevent the next Administration from conducting any messy investigations into all the crimes they've committed, while also allowing them to continue committing those crimes. Double whammy.

Chaos is not good for business.

They will not believe that they are creating chaos, they will do it believing that they are creating order. These guys have a history of favoring their own bullshit over the real lessons of history and they won't learn from the mess they've made in Iraq.

The stock market would tank.

Hey, if you know about it in advance you can make out like a bandit on that. Ask those guys who short sold just before 9/11 -- if you can find them.

A depression would ensue.

Scared insecure people are much easier to subdue. This is a plus.

rounding up dissidents, killing people in the streets with Blackwater operatives

Most people will see this as neutral at worst. It's only a problem if you believe you might be considered a dissident, and by the time that realization trickles down to Joe Sixpack it will be well and truly too late; the actual police will be incorporated into the network of control (they're already heavily militarized) and any squeaky wheels will be stomped before they can spread their dangerous ideas around.

The TV will still play, the economy might tank but it will still exist, ordinary jobs will still need to be done and people will continue to go to work, pay their bills, and so on. A violent insurgency just gives them an excuse to maintain and extend the control; they don't need to be able to completely put it down. And they don't need a realistic chance of pulling it off to try; all they need is to think they have a realistic chance. Just like they thought they had a chance in Iraq, just like they think they do in Iran.

Given the right catalyst, such as a small nuke going off in an American city or other convenient terroristic event, it would go down just like the post-9/11 power grab. Which is to say, probably without a hitch. "We've postponed the elections because in this crisis America can't afford the disruption of a power transition. We have to address the external threat first." That's all it will take.

(Also, pssst it's "martial" law.)

[JohnyCanuck]

151. Most people would beg to be caged, cuffed and cloistered .... for their own safety, of course.

NATO’s secret armies linked to terrorism?
by Daniele Ganser

in Italy, on 3 August 1990, then-prime minister Giulio Andreotti confirmed the existence of a secret army code-named “Gladio” - the Latin word for “sword” - within the state. His testimony before the Senate subcommittee investigating terrorism in Italy sent shockwaves through the Italian parliament and the public, as speculation arose that the secret army had possibly manipulated Italian politics through acts of terrorism.

Andreotti revealed that the secret Gladio army had been hidden within the Defense Ministry as a subsection of the military secret service, SISMI. General Vito Miceli, a former director of the Italian military secret service, could hardly believe that Andreotti had lifted the secret, and protested:

"I have gone to prison because I did not want to reveal the existence of this super secret organization. And now Andreotti comes along and tells it to parliament!" According to a document compiled by the Italian military secret service in 1959, the secret armies had a two-fold strategic purpose: firstly, to operate as a so-called “stay-behind” group in the case of a Soviet invasion and to carry out a guerrilla war in occupied territories; secondly, to carry out domestic operations in case of “emergency situations”.

The military secret services’ perceptions of what constituted an “emergency” was well defined in Cold War Italy and focused on the increasing strength of the Italian Communist and the Socialist parties, both of which were tasked with weakening NATO “from within”. Felice Casson, an Italian judge who during his investigations into right-wing terrorism had first discovered the secret Gladio army and had forced Andreotti to take a stand, found that the secret army had linked up with right-wing terrorists in order to confront “emergency situations”. The terrorists, supplied by the secret army, carried out bomb attacks in public places, blamed them on the Italian left, and were thereafter protected from prosecution by the military secret service. "You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game,” right-wing terrorist Vincezo Vinciguerra explained the so-called “strategy of tension” to Casson.

“The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the state to ask for greater security. (emphasis added /jc)This is the political logic that lies behind all the massacres and the bombings which remain unpunished, because the state cannot convict itself or declare itself responsible for what happened."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/GAN412A.html



Brainwashing America
by Norman D. Livergood

The puppet Bush regime is using new, aggressive forms of brainwashing to change the very way Americans think and feel.

This is the psychological dimension of the demonic cabal's general onslaught against American workers, just as the "war on terrorism" is the military dimension and corporate crime and tax cuts for the rich comprise the economic dimension.

We are living under the beginning stages of a military dictatorship in precisely the same way that 1930s Germans suffered under the Nazi regime.

As in the case of Nazi Germany, state-sponsored propaganda (brainwashing) is a vital part of the Bush regime's strategy.

SNIP

In an earlier article, I reviewed the varied aspects of personality profiling and simulation. While serving as Head of the Artificial Intelligence Department at the U.S. Army War College, 1993-1995, I conducted studies on profiling, psychological programming, and brainwashing. I explored and developed personality simulation systems, an advanced technology used in military war games, FBI profiling, political campaigning, and advertising. Part of my discovery was that:

* unenlightened human minds are combinations of infantile beliefs and emotional patterns

* these patterns can be simulated in profiling systems

* these profiling systems can be used to program and control people

Personality simulation systems are being used to create political campaigns that apply voter profiles to control their voting behavior. TV commercials and programs use personality simulation to profile viewers to control their purchasing and viewing behaviors. And sophisticated propaganda and brainwashing techniques are being used by the Bush junta to keep American citizens under control.

http://www.hermes-press.com/brainwash1.htm

[AntiFascist]

154. Not only that...

but most people have become too dependent on modern convenience. All it would take is a well-targeted attack on supply routes, communications, and power, and people would ultimately be walking into camps so that they could be taken care of.

[knight_of_the_star]

81. Now watch them TRY to take on LA

That would be something worth watching, I predict a repeat of Somalia there.

And New York, good fucking luck there!

[warren pease]

130. You don't have to cover the entire country...

Obviously, there's not nearly enough of them to lock down the country, or even a decent-sized state.

But there's certainly enough of them to lock down a major city or five, which would have the immediate effect of creating something that looks on TV a lot like martial law and therefore gives today's brand of chicken-shit Americans, who poop their collective pants every time they're told to by our Fear-Monger in Chief, something brand new to whine and snivel and duck-and-cover about.

And TV news would breathlessly report that this was for the good of the country and the safety of individuals, and bring us uninterrupted video of street warfare that looks like Beirut or Baghdad. Hell, maybe they'll just fake the whole thing ala "Wag the Dog."

And as we've all seen for the past six-plus years, a scared population isn't capable of questioning government policy very loudly, or taking much action at all even when elections are stolen right in front of their eyes.

And these private mercs are well-trained, mostly from elite units (SAS, Seals, Special Forces, etc.) fresh from battlefield fire-fights, and only got into the business in the first place because they needed a career in which legalized killing -- the only thing they're qualified to do -- pays well enough to have a house, a really neat SUV, a personal arsenal and a lot of other cool expensive stuff.

I don't think it matters much what the people in rural mountain communities do; they're not the target as long as they don't suddenly develop a sense of kinship with city dwellers -- a sentiment notably absent in my lifetime.

Nope, they want the cities and the concentrated populations, most of whom either don't own or know what to do with guns. Easy targets, and that's where the bulk of the population, as well as the american brain trust, lives.

Add to these professional killers, there's more than a million US military not in Iraq, more than 2 million national guard not in Iraq (yet) and the various air guards, coast guards and such hanging around waiting to perforate some lefties.

Paranoid? Probably, and I wish that were the only problem. There are two kinds of paranoia; the baseless, nutcase kind, and the well grounded kind. I leave it to the reader to decide which I'm currently afflicted with.


wp

[warren pease]

132. Serious resistance from the morbidly obese can plinker crowd...

Do you actually think that a bunch of suet-stuffed weekend warriors with firing pins modified for full-automatic are going to go toe to toe with, say, a modern US Army tank unit with full helicopter support and serious communications advantages, and come out of the experience with much less than a 100 percent casualty rate?

And Blackwater or any of the other merc suppliers listed above would be equipped with the same stuff. Plus they have no loyalty whatsoever except to their paymasters, they're in a merc organization because it's the only place besides the military that allows them to kill without jail time, and they're drawn from the best of the best so they're in the elite ranks of sanctioned murderers.

And these guys don't worry you, even a little? You've got to get me a list of the drugs you're on because I'm getting tired of adding one and one and coming up with two.


wp

[Posteritatis]

46. Yeah, a few score thousand half-grunts will dominate us all. Right. (nt)

[Doremus]

61. Give the finest criminal minds since Hitler proper credit.

You're assuming that they would make a public announcement that they're going to become dictators for life.

That's just silly.

Like 9/11 and the Reichstag fire, all it would take is the staging of a calamity which they would duly blame on the evil-doers.

People would fall all over themselves begging for "protection."

No fuss, no muss.

[Posteritatis]

72. And a few thousand moderately-armed rednecks can't cut it nationwide

Blackwater isn't the equal of a professional army, full stop. While I could see them taking part in whatever ridiculousness the administration may or may not have planned domestically, they are not even vaguely equivalent to the American armed forces themselves. They're a drop in the bucket alongside that.

[Doremus]

74. Once again, why do you think HUGE forces would even be necessary?

A willing populace needs no coercion.

Willing.
Not UNwilling.

Happy.
No dissent.

Soccer moms. "Evil-doers." "Axis of Evil." "Homeland Security."

Keep us safe, please, we beg you!



How soon we forget the lessons of 9/11.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Sorry to disagree, but most of their people

are former SEALS, Green Berets and other special forces

You are right, they are not the equal of most of the force, but far better

[Posteritatis]

109. Minus the equipment, and the intel, etc etc etc

Part of the reason a Navy SEAL is dangerous is because of the "navy" half of things. When you take away, oh, a national military's worth of support, you're left with a human who might be more dangerous than most but certainly isn't nearly so badass as he may have been beforehand. Fourteen thousand mercs have been killed or wounded in Iraq so far; they're mortal like the rest of us. (And I question whether "most" of them are former spec-ops. Quite a few, yeah, but I'm willing to bet the number is not only less than you think, but is also less than they claim. Lotta liars about that kind of thing.)

I'm not saying they're not dangerous. I am saying they're not the fucking omnipotent world-bestriding invincible juggernaut that everyone on DU seems to have become convinced they are lately. There's people who seem to seriously believe that something like Blackwater can successfully occupy the United States; I consider that nothing less than absurd, not least because the United States can only barely occupy the United States.

Worry about 'em? Sure. Handwring about how, if push comes to shove, they'll be unstoppable by anything up to and including national militaries like some people are doing? That doesn't impress or interest me. Blackwater isn't the eschaton.

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. If you decide to use Mercs you also provide intel

[Doremus]

123. But they WOULD have the support of the military ...

...and the media .... and the national guard .... and municipal police forces.

More importantly, they will have the support of the American people.


A few dissidents are easily handled.


Game. Set. Match.

[stillcool]

17. law and order...

I don't believe is the 'objective' in Iraq. Otherwise why would the benchmark the Iraqi government must meet to restore stability and supposedly lead to U.S. troop reduction be the passing of the oil law?

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/56672

Benchmark Boogie: A Guide to the Struggle Over Iraq's Oil

By Antonia Juhasz, AlterNet. Posted July 14, 2007.

The president's benchmark

The U.S. State Department Iraq Study Group began laying the foundations for the new law prior to the invasion of Iraq. Its recommendations, released only after the invasion, were quickly enshrined in a draft oil law introduced to the interim Iraqi government by the U.S.-appointed interim prime minister of Iraq, Ayad Allawi (a former CIA operative).

The Bush administration has spent four years trying to force successive Iraqi governments to pass the law, referred to as either the "hydrocarbons" or "oil" law. While it has gone through several permutations, the basics have remained the same and have followed the original prescriptions set out by the State Department.

The law would change Iraq's oil system from a nationalized model -- all but closed to U.S. oil companies -- to a privatized model open to foreign corporate control. At least two-thirds of Iraq's oil would be open to foreign oil companies under terms that they usually only dream about, including 30-year-long contracts. (For details of the law, see my March 2007 New York Times Op-Ed, "Whose Oil Is It, Anyway?")

In January, after four years of trying to get the law passed in Iraq, President Bush went public with this demand when he made his "speech to the nation" announcing the "surge" of 20,000 additional American troops to Iraq.

The president explained that the surge would be successful where other U.S. efforts had failed in Iraq because the Iraqi government would be held to a set of specific "benchmarks." Those benchmarks were laid out in a White House Fact Sheet released the same day that explained that the Iraq government had committed to several economic and political measures, including to "enact hydrocarbons law to promote investment, national unity, and reconciliation."

[1620rock]

30. As a far left liberal I used to be sooo anti gun...not anymore.

[stillcool]

54. no shit...

I'm now a be careful what you wish for kind. I did a little research on our prison system..which opened my eyes to the Global Corporate Security Companies that already provide security to our nuclear facilities, our prisons and God knows what else. I don't think people realize...they are already here, and their numbers are unknowable. There is no data, as far as I can find, that can accurately account for the number of security firms operating in the U.S. The following refer to one firm..Wackenhut...which has now morphed into quite the operation..

July 30, 2004

POGO's letter to NRC Chairman Diaz criticizing nuclear industry lobbyists' improper influence over critical homeland security tests


July 30, 2004

Chairman Nils J. Diaz
Nuclear Regulatory Commission
11555 Rockville Pike
Rockville, MD 20852

Via facsimile: [phone]

Dear Chairman Diaz,

We have been encouraged by and supportive of the NRC's recent efforts to develop a credible force-on-force program to test the effectiveness of guard forces and defensive strategies at nuclear power plants. We were led to believe that the NRC would develop its own adversary teams for these tests. Credible adversary teams are essential for these performance tests.

Therefore, we were shocked to learn that Nuclear Energy Institute (NEI), the lobbying arm of the nuclear industry, has hired Wackenhut Corporation to supply and manage these adversary teams. This is more than a case of the proverbial fox guarding the henhouse. It is not an apparent conflict of interest -- but a blatant conflict of interest. As you know, Wackenhut guard forces protect 30 of the nation's 64 nuclear power plants. At nearly 50 percent of the nuclear plants, then, Wackenhut guard forces would be tested by Wackenhut adversaries. Under these conditions no one would have any confidence in the results of these force-on-force tests, regardless of whatever oversight the NRC might provide. The NRC should not abdicate its responsibility to run security preparedness tests to the nuclear industry, much less hand over authority to the very entity being tested. (Appendix A)

Having a trained full-time adversary force is a good idea, but any benefit gained is lost by the current arrangement. Oversight of critical infrastructure security is an inherently governmental function and must not be entrusted to a private company, particularly one with an obvious self-interest and a poor track record, like Wackenhut.

If this inappropriate arrangement were not enough for the commission to reclaim the force-on-force program, Wackenhut's dubious past performance should. Some examples of Wackenhut's performance:

As recently as last January, DOE inspector general reported that Wackenhut personnel had cheated during a force-on-force exercise of June 2003 at the Y-12 plant in Oak Ridge, Tenn. This facility houses hundreds of tons of highly enriched uranium. The inspector general, Greg Friedman, said the test results were "tainted and unreliable." Moreover, Friedman gleaned from more than 30 testimonies that this was part of "a pattern of actions" dating back almost two decades. (Appendix B)

A stunning case study of Wackenhut's incompetence with nuclear security:

Between 1986 and 2003, Wackenhut provided security at Indian Point #2 Nuclear Power plant, which is less than 35 miles north of Manhattan. The utility, Entergy, that had recently acquired the plant, hired a consultant to conduct an internal probe of security at the facility; and found:

* "Only 19 percent of the security officers stated that they could adequately defend the plant."

* Some officers believed that as many as "50 per cent of the force may not be physically able to meet the demands of defending the plant;"

* Wackenhut allowed guards to take their weapons qualifying tests over and over again until they passed;

* Citing officers' fears of retaliation for raising concerns, the report said, "The security officers stated that a chilled environment existed among security officers... as a result of issues related to Wackenhut site management;"

* Guards told of minimal training, of other guards reporting for duty drunk, of security drills that were carefully staged by Wackenhut to insure that mock attackers would be repelled, and of out of shape guards forced to work 70 to 80 hours or more per week. Entergy subsequently terminated Wackenhut's contract as a result of the investigation. (Appendix C)

The vast majority of the almost 200 guards at both NRC and Energy department sites that have complained to POGO about security problems have been Wackenhut employees.

Another of Wackenhut's most notorious cases came in the 1990s and involved Wackenhut's work on the Alaskan pipeline. Chuck Hamel coordinated a number of whistleblowers who testified about serious structural problems before Congress (Hamel is currently a member of POGO's board of directors but was not at the time of this case). Wackenhut then fired most of the whistleblowers and mounted a massive undercover surveillance operation against Mr. Hamel. The undercover private investigators acquired the Hamel family private phone records - to identify and fire pipeline whistleblowers. Wackenhut also used clandestine and malicious tactics such as stealing his garbage, creating a phony environmental front-organization, employing hidden cameras in hotel rooms in an attempt to compromise him with women, and stationing, for several months, an eavesdropping electronics van beside his Alexandria, Va., home. Federal Judge Stanley Sporkin, during the 1993 U.S. District Court proceedings, described the details of Wackenhut's operation on Mr. Hamel as "horrendous" and "reminiscent of Nazi Germany." Judge Sporkin further observed, "no one should be subjected to the kind of treatment the Hamels were." (Appendix D)

We have another major concern about the NRC's reliance on Wackenhut to provide security - and now the testing of security - at our nation's nuclear power plants. As you probably know, the Department of Homeland Security has a pilot program to evaluate the possibility of private contractors taking over passenger and checked bag screening from the federal government at some U.S. airports. The legislation authorizing the pilot program - the Aviation and Transportation Security Act of 2001 - specifically prohibits foreign firms from being hired to handle screening. Congress wanted to preserve the security of such critical infrastructure for domestic companies.

Why is the NRC, a federal regulatory agency with responsibility for security of nuclear power plants, increasing rather than decreasing reliance on a foreign owned corporation - Wackenhut - to manage security at the majority of U.S. nuclear power plants? Why would the United States government want a foreign corporation to know the defensive strategies, vulnerabilities, targets, timelines, and protective weapons of nuclear power plants, some of which are close to U.S. cities?

Wackenhut is owned by Group 4 Falck A/S, a Danish company, which has just merged with a British firm, Securicor, PLC. Securicor is the parent company of Cognisa - the same company that was in charge of airport security on Sept. 11, 2001 when terrorists with weapons passed through checkpoints at Washington-Dulles and Newark International Airports (back then the company called itself Argenbright). We now have one mega-foreign owned corporation with an abysmal record inside the U.S. operating security at many of our nuclear power plants.1

We are not suggesting that Group 4 Falck-Securicor would disseminate this information to a terrorist group or foreign power. The point is that the U.S. government and the nuclear power utilities should keep this critical information in as few hands as possible, or the risk increases.

Security of nuclear power plants is a fundamental homeland security issue. If the NRC does not have the resources to support this effort, then it is imperative that you ask the Department of Homeland Security to provide this funding.

As always, we would be happy to meet with you to discuss our concerns.

Sincerely,

Danielle Brian
Executive Director


1. We are aware of the procedures of the Foreign Ownership, Control and Influence (FOCI) programs. We are not confident that the oversight of the foreign corporation is adequate to ensure that the so-called firewall between the domestic subsidary and the foreign owner is effective.
http://www.pogo.org/p/homeland/hl-040708-nrc.html

National and International Resources
With research agents performing live searches of court records nationwide, online connection to hundreds of county and Federal courthouses, over 120 area offices and Group 4Securicor operations in
more than 80 countries on six continents, Wackenhut commands national and international investigation
resources.
Customized Programs
Background screening services and public record searches are tailored to each customer's specific
need. Common background programs include the following elements:
• Social Security Number Traces
• Driving History Searches
• County Criminal Record Search
• State Criminal Record Search
• Federal Criminal Record Search
• Prior Employment Verifications
• Education Confirmation
• Credit Reports for Employment
• Professional Licenses and Certification Checks
• Sex offender registry checks
• Specially Designated National Searches
• FDA Sanctions Checks
• Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) Searches
Consulting and Investigation Services
The Wackenhut Corporation
4200 Wackenhut Drive
Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33410
800.275.8310
http://www.ci-wackenhut.com/

.....and this I found when I clicked on a Wackenhut link:

http://www.wackenhut-oakridge.com/


NOTICE TO USERS


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[BlackVelvet04]

29. I can pretty much guarantee that even the most right wing

of southerners isn't going to stand for martial law and they have the guns to back them up.

[sanskritwarrior]

35. Huh?

I would say at least 40% of this country would go along with it

[Bobbieo]

57. During WW2 , I wondered how the German people were

conned into giving up their freedoms - NOT ANY MORE! Blackwater brings to mind Hitler's SS troops. It is scary!

[Hippo_Tron]

158. Well first there were paramilitary groups such as the Nazi SA creating chaos in the streets

Hitler offered stability, divided the left, and offered a solution to the financial crisis. Hitler was also pretty damn blatant about being against democracy.

Blackwater is certainly a concern but not quite comparable to the SA or the SS, at least not yet. Most people don't know about Blackwater. The SA was well known because of their destruction in the streets. The SS was known because they would come knocking on your door asking you to denounce your neighbors.

[Doremus]

78. You're more optimistic than I. Framed properly, I'd put the percentage at 90% or more. n/t

[Doremus]

50. Did rightwing southerners support the Patriot Act?

Cheney et al are not so stupid as to announce they are taking over in perpetuity.

It will be the PEOPLE who demand to be protected. People who actively support the curtailment of their liberties so that they might feel safer do NOT need to be browbeaten into submission. They will obey willingly.

It only takes a small military force to deal with dissenters.

[BlackVelvet04]

53. That's a horse of a different color....

but since we will never know (because it isn't going to happen) we will never be able to prove our point of view. But, I know southerners and they would never stand for it.

[Doremus]

55. Well, gee, I'm glad we have your assurances Cheney et al won't make the power grab.

But you'll have to excuse me if, after 6 years of watching his criminal mind in action, I have more confidence in Cheney's ability to pull it off than your ability to read tea leaves and crystal balls.

[BlackVelvet04]

115. Feel better now that you got your snarkiness in?

I don't read tea leaves or crystal balls. I think I just know southerners. You don't agree....fine. It's not worth arguing about because it isn't going to happen.

[localroger]

119. Southerners and standing for it

Hello, I live among these people too. Take my coworker (redacted) who keeps a gun loaded with "cop killer" bullets beside his bed. He's aware of the new trend of police home invasion and this is his answer -- "If they come for me I'll at least take a couple of them with me."

Note what this guy is not doing. He's not out demonstrating against the militarization of the police. He's doing a very Southern thing, which is minding his business. Yes, a lot of these guys will see right through whatever flimsy excuse is made to justify the transition. And they will still go to work the next day, pay their bills, and hope it all works out in the end. They may make arrangements, but they will be personal arrangements. And when they're confronted, one at a time, by the power of the State they will be destroyed, and the neighbors will take note and just be more careful.

A consistent state of lawlessness works to the advantage of a totalitarian state, because if you are forced into the underground economy to survive, then you can be "gotten" at any time. The thing is they don't really care about "getting" you as long as you do your job and shut up. People in Nazi Germany and the old USSR quickly took note of this and for the most part acted accordingly.

The number of Southerners, just like the number of Idahoans, who will actually bother to form training camps and create an insurgency is relatively small. There will be enough of them to create a lot of trouble, but once the actual military, rather than just the Guard and militarized police, are turned on them it will be over. Unless you think a bunch of rednecks running around in the woods actually have a shot in hell against fighter jets, laser-guided bombs, FLIR, and U2 and satellite surveillance.

[BlackVelvet04]

128. I was born and raised in the rural south and I disagree....

but as I said, it's not going to happen so we will never know who was correct.

[Doremus]

122. The south went for Bush in huge numbers.

They fell for:

WMDs
Saddam is a bad man
Let freedom ring
Fight them there so we don't have to fight them here
Mission accomplished
Patriot Act
And oh, so many more.

They have not demonstrated the slightest ability to discern when they are being lied to.

Again, Bush won't use the word "dictatorship." The media will not use the word. The takeover will be seamless and to all outward appearances will be a benevolent act by a concerned president who only wants to keep us safe.

Oh, the south will fall for it. Count on it.

[Individualist]

127. When their teevees tell them the sole reason for martial law is to ensure their safety,

with patriotic music accompanying the propaganda 24/7, and that as Good Americans, you must comply with that law, they will not only support it, they'll cheer the enforcers!

[treestar]

56. I hope you're right.

The American people are awfully obedient, though. If they are told they "have to" do things, they often do.

This is why we have so many laws. We don't have the police to enforce the millions of laws on the books. We depend on people just obeying them on the grounds of obeying the law. That's why making a law is thought to be effective.

[democrat2thecore]

58. Local Cops --nt

[Maddy McCall]

108. Many of whom belong to unions, and are Democrats.

Ain't gonna happen.

[pepperbear]

64. man, I don't think victory is or ever was the endgame....

I don't think the Iraq war was meant to be won. I think it's meant to be perpetuated.

[in_cog_ni_to]

66. Yep. PNAC...World Domination...Hegemony. That has always been the plan. n/t

[pepperbear]

67. And it's simple, too....

this war was a business venture, and that is a fact. The people who were meant to make out are indeed making out, so like any good busines, it needs a plan to perpetuate and expand itself (a corporation is seen as an individual in the eyes of the law), perhaps into another country. I bet most of Dick's meetings are about the money, not the strategy.

This is truly frightening.

[mudesi]

69. Over half a million people have died in Iraq

What a post. :eyes:

[glitch]

86. Well we don't have much oil left and they've already looted our treasury.

If they were smart they'd just skeedaddle off to Paraguay. But if they were smart they wouldn't have to be criminals.

And anyway, I don't think it's just about money for these guys. I think pathological revenge determines their actions.

[pitohui]

92. er, they've already rounded up and controlled us

next question?

[Captain Angry]

100. Since we're working with hypotheticals here...

Your premise is that the military isn't large enough to do this.

Other premises made in prior posts are that the US Military would not serve this order.


1: On an individual level, when a soldier is told you're with us, or against us, many soldiers will do what it takes to keep them on the "right" side of the fence.

2: The US Government is actively recruiting soldiers in foreign countries, at much lower wages. A recent story was about Kenyan recruits. If you want to put a boot down, bring somebody who's never had very much, and tell them they get to keep the stuff in the houses they clear. Whole cities would be emptied and burned. Soldiers from Chile, Niger or Laos might be highly motivated to clear a city out.

3: We can't control the Green Zone in Baghdad because we're selling the shells to the people shelling us.

4: Bottom line: If you want martial law, you don't need to round up millions or even thousands of people. You need to decide that martial law is going to happen, and make very public, very scary examples out of certain people.

There will be three kinds of people. The ones who are ok with this. The ones who aren't but won't do anything about it, and the ones who will do something about it. That third group will dwindle if they are rounded up and killed.

If you want total control, it's easy. You just need to decide to do it.

[Buck Rabbit]

102. Yep!

As much as I would like to think the US would be different than other countries that have submitted to their own militaries, I don't see the US putting up a fight and I believe the local police forces would fall right in line. You only need to control Washington DC, and put down any opposition governments that might arise.

Though I believe it can happen, I don't think it will happen.

[Jim Warren]

112. For awhile

Then, with a little time, the resistance gains strength.

[Liberty Belle]

106. They would use Blackwater and other private contractors to enforce their will,

not the military. Which is one more reason why these privater mercenaries have got to go!

[treestar]

125. They might even use foreign mercenaries

Imagine them using that service as a carrot to undocumented aliens.

[Mythsaje]

107. There are some few folks here

who seem to have a real hard-on for this to happen. I'm not sure why and I don't give a fuck. Their passion for the possibility is sick. You're arguing with people who can only see this wet dream of theirs come true and will NOT accept an argument to the contrary.

Don't waste your time.

[Doremus]

134. I don't want it to happen, nor does anyone else in this thread.

But if we stupidly deny the possibility we are idiots.

It CAN happen because they've made sure to create every law, every signing statement, every executive order and recruit every judge that they will need should they decide to do it.

The arguments to the contrary in this thread are little more than wishful thinking. "The military can't stop us" is plain wrong. There would be very few to round up. Like after 9/11, the PEOPLE THEMSELVES would be begging for protection. The current military, combined with private security firms and our own municipal police forces would be more than ample to deal with a few dissidents. The propaganda machine would see to it that "patriotic" folks would be turning in their friends and neighbors for "subversive" activities.

Do you really doubt any of that? Then my suggestion is to bone up on your history lessons.

No, I don't want it to happen. But we must be vigilant. And we need to stop the unfounded denials and learn the facts. It CAN happen here ... if we let it.

[Mythsaje]

137. If and when it starts happening, we'll know for sure.

In the meantime I think it's more important to educate people that it COULD, not that we believe it will.

The stage being set is bad enough, and proveable. We can't possibly convince anyone of their intentions, since we don't even know what they are.

But I get a weird feeling from some of the people here--like they'd like nothing more than to see it unfold that way. And I personally find it more than a little creepy.

[Doremus]

138. Oh good grief, you can't be serious.

I haven't seen a single comment in this thread that would indicate ANYONE here would like this to happen.

I've only seen am expression of deep concern at the fact that many here are fooling themselves into thinking it COULDN'T happen (the military isn't big enough or powerful enough, yadda yadda).

Where do you see anyone saying --or even implying-- they'd "like nothing more than to see it unfold that way"??

Pah.

[Mythsaje]

139. That some people want to be right at any cost.

"We said it could, and now it has. So there!"

I debated RW paranoids before Clinton left office. They offered the SAME arguments. Of course, they thought the U.N. was going to be in charge of the internment camps. The LW paranoids seem to think it'll be mercenaries.

Same song, different singer.

[Doremus]

140. Uh hello? Your straw man is calling.

LW paranoids?

Your argument is without substance and now you're slinging insults. The pattern is familiar but this is the wrong website.

How about actually contributing an actual fact or two to back up your argument? Hint: a "discussion" you had with RWers last decade doesn't qualify. Thanks.

[Mythsaje]

141. Let's just say your arguments are no more convincing

than theirs were.

If that's a strawman, so be it.

And suggesting subtly that I'm some kind of troll?

rofl:

Oh, yeah. That's me.

None of the things you've produced are any kind of evidence. It's conjecture and assumption.

Color me unimpressed.

edited to correct a spelling error

[Doremus]

142. If you put as much effort into actually stating a case as you do into personal attacks

and strawmen, we might be able to have an actual discussion.

I guess you'd rather play oneupsmanship though so have at it.

[Mythsaje]

145. I never made ANY personal attacks.

You did. You suggested I was a troll.

All I said was that, to me, some people seem all too eager for this to happen. That's not a personal attack, that's an observation.

I've already gone over all of this stuff a few weeks ago. I even posted editorials about the subject. I'm not going to revisit my points when the people who are certain it's going to happen don't give a rat's ass what anyone else has to say about it.

If that's "one-upmanship," okay.

I get really tired of the doom and gloom that seems to really get some people going. It's as if some people can't wait for something bad to happen. Or, rather, something ELSE bad to happen.

[Doremus]

149. I did not call you a troll, you did. I said quite plainly that you haven't offered a single fact

to rebut the arguments presented. And you haven't.

Great, you had this discussion a few weeks ago. I didn't. In fact, I've not participated in any discussion of this topic previously. Your attempt to lump me in with some imaginary group of people intent on "doom and gloom" is not only inaccurate and silly, it would seem to reveal a little of your own paranoia.

Don't like the thread? Simple. Stay out of it.

[Pachamama]

113. They can't control Iraq because the people resist and fight back...I often ask myself, what would

Americans do if Martial Law was declared and people rounded up? Would they fight back? Would they form resistance, aka "insurgencies"? Or would they comply and watch for instructions and reports on what's happening on CNN???

:shrug:

[NuttyFluffers]

114. this is ridiculous. since when is martial law not backed up with propaganda?

and which nation/culture has, hands down, the most sophisticated, embedded, closed-circuit, & mind-blowing-ly effective propaganda atmosphere in the world?

you get one guess. (and it determines your citizenship :P j/k)

get the right trigger with the right propaganda and even Bush looks like a hero. (*ahem* 9/11 anybody?)
acquiescence from the public is ridiculously easy. humans are painfully well-trained into obedience to authority. and that speaks of nothing about a large segment that will gleefully support it full tilt just by their very make-up.

sure you speak of physical logistics, but you completely do not factor PSYCHOLOGICAL WILLINGNESS.

seriously, i hate saying this, but read more about history and human psychology. you don't have to attack a castle if you can attack the mind...

[Tsiyu]

124. Many opinions

My questions:


How many citizens are ex-military? (None of my ex-military family members would go along with martial law.)

How many troops and cops and renegade mercenaries will need to tend to their own families in a time of crisis?

Why would most people accept Repuke violent rule given that 70% of Americans aligned with Democratic ideals last November?

Why would anyone assume that only soldiers and mercenaries have a reason to fight? Or the means to fight?

Why would anyone assume that killing a moderate's family member over politics would win them over to the Dark Side? If they're not sure before you round up their liberal family member, thy're pretty determined to fight against the Dark Side after that. Blood and love really do trump fear.

Why did 100 brave people recently march up to Cheney's neighborhood in Wyoming to protest the war, toppling an effigy of him?


Short-term: They could try it


Long term: I imagine we would see some dead liberals and militia types initially, followed by a buffet of Republican heads on platters

[NeedleCast]

133. Force is not the issue

Police states control their population by fear. They use the threat of force to inspire that fear and they hope their populance will respond by doing what they want them to do. You make an example out of a few so that the many will think "if I do something wrong, that could happen to me!"

That being said, I doubt the US military would support a coup. If they did, they would be vastly out-numbered by what is a fairly well armed society.

[Doremus]

135. That today there is even the notion that such a discussion is necessary

boggles the mind.

Yet here we are discussing the possibility of an overthrow of the American government.

Truly mind blowing. Worst of all, not entirely far-fetched.

In fact, if one WERE planning such an act, they would proceed exactly as Bushco has done the past 6 years.

Think about that one tonight while you're trying to sleep. The stuff of nightmares.

[onenote]

143. its not necessary, but some just keep discussing it anyway.

[treestar]

144. I think it could be a good thing

That we discuss long before it could ever be a possibility. It means we are vigilant.

[AntiFascist]

159. They keep warning us about the use of nukes within the US....

in fact, right-wing media often floats the al Qaeda plan for an "American Hiroshima" where 7 nukes go off simultaneously in major cities within the US. There was even a TV show about this recently called Jericho, where the nukes were transported in the backs of trucks (sound recently familiar?), except the terrorists turned out to be rogue US agents. In the show there is even a Blackwater-like organization that poses as US military and goes around killing people and stealing resources.

Now, back to reality, suppose that the US economy is destined to come crashing down as the result of Arab and other oil exporting countries no longer supporting the American petro-dollar. Suppose that Christian Zionists are all in a frenzy about oncoming Armageddon and the Second Coming. Suppose that international bankers are at a loss about how to continue supporting indebted/greedy Americans who can no longer pay on their mortgages and loans. Suppose that leaders are realizing that the Earth's environment can no longer support the American lifestyle and the best way to deal with it is to make a bad example for such an imperialist society.

Now, suppose also that there are plenty of people who feel the same way as this Administrator, BM CALI, on a right-wing forum:

http://thefinalphaseforum.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=1430&hl=Hiroshima&st=140#

Canceled!

I boycotted it <Jericho> once I realized they were not going to portray a foreign attack on CONUS.

I guess I was not alone.

Americans and other Westerners crave starkness, nation to nation conflict, and the end of globalism. We crave fighting back against the anti Western forces of doom with extreme prejudice, and punishing the totalitarian cancer that has never been completely eradicated. We crave world war 3 with us in the driver's seat. Most will not admit to this. But deep down, that is the truth. It is not necessarily evil to feel this way, especially when you look at what we've tolerated for the past 100 years. To crave it is to crave the survival of Western Civilization and to crave the restoration of the demonstrated effective age old principles which are the core pillars of our cultural roots.

Away with the self imposed ambiguity and head trips of Kissingerian relativism! Let there be war!

Suppose that Operation American Hiroshima will be allowed, in part, in order to satisfy these cravings?

[bobthedrummer]

146. "It Can't Happen Here" was published in 1935. "Never Forget" is not rhetoric. eom

[MrSlayer]

147. The whole martial law thing is ridiculous.

The right was saying it in the late 90's and it was stupid then, it's just as stupid now. Not going to happen. They (BushCo) are going to walk off into the sunset and count their blood money in January 2009.

[beevul]

148. One large problem...

A rifle behind every blade of grass. Latest estimates I have seen were some 290 million privately owned firearms, in this country.

What would happen even assuming that the full cooperation of blackwater and the military happpened (which wouldn't), and assuming completely illegitimacy and completely opposition by the population, would make iraq and viet nam look like a lovers spat. Think how much harder things would be when you can't tell friend from enemy AND they are your neighbors and relatives (potentially). And rifle behind every blade of grass. It would be THAT bad.

In reality there would be lots of lrage problems, but just the one would be plenty, and enough to guarantee failure.

Thats not to say it wont be tried however.

[Doremus]

150. That's a lot of assumptions.

Remember what the people did after 9/11?

Does the Patriot Act ring a bell?

You can't assume the populace will rise up. They will have to have realized what happened in order to do that, and who's going to tell them?

[beevul]

153. You raise some good points.

Possibly, because I believe most human beings are inherantly good and decent, I may not be evaluating it as well as I could.

If anyone wanted to do such a thing though, at some point they would have to get rid of all the guns I would think. I can't see any way around that, sooner or later. There would be no concealing it when they did. Even if they disabled tv, phone, radio, internet, word would spread.

I find it interesating and morbid at the same time, to hypothesise. You are right though, lots of if's.

[Mind_your_head]

157. First time I've clicked on this topic.....I'm not gonna read all of the responses....

If martial law comes, I say "F*ck em".....I'll die happily wrapped in my Constitution of the United States of America (not to be confused with any other 'constitution' ~ that's why I say it the way I do....)

So be it.

on edit: I'd rather preserve the constitution than die for it, of course.....but I'm not into 'compromise' either

[Evoman]

164. What would be the point? "They" already control you with massive debt and fear.

Why reveal their hand by doing something stupid like Martial Law. Bush can already break laws, ignore subpoenas, etc...any cops going to go pick him up?

Ha.

[Done]

166. They need another terrorist attack

Another terrorist attack will change everything...absolutely everything. Most americans are not that informed, and they will go along with it. Remember post 9/11? Remember that the neocons stole the 2000 election and got away it? Remember all the other stuff that they've gotten away with? Okay so a lot of the misinformed masses have come over to our side for now because the war is going so badly.

The administration has everything in place for marshall law.

They simply need another terrorist attack. A terrorist attack will change everything. (No matter which "terrorists" are behind the attack).

[noonwitch]

167. Martial law can only work for so long in this country, before people rebel

That's why if effectively ended the Detroit riots in 1967. The National Guard managed the city for a few weeks, then left. Martial law can be used in crisis management, but not for a long-term occupation. It didn't work for the Nazis, in the long run, and even though it took longer for the people to rebel, it didn't end up working in the USSR.

[LittleClarkie]

168. It's the same thing to me as the other side and their war on Xmas

It's something to get the people riled up over.