Support the death penalty? You almost killed 124 innocent people

[mudesi]

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng

10. Execution of the innocent
As long as the death penalty is maintained, the risk of executing the innocent can never be eliminated.

Since 1973, 124 prisoners have been released in the USA after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death. There were six such cases in 2004, two in 2005, one in 2006 and one so far in 2007. Some prisoners had come close to execution after spending many years under sentence of death. Recurring features in their cases include prosecutorial or police misconduct; the use of unreliable witness testimony, physical evidence, or confessions; and inadequate defence representation.

Other US prisoners have gone to their deaths despite serious doubts over their guilt.

Sleep well.

[Colobo]

1. Every night I sleep better and better.

I feel for those who have been wronged by justice, but that is something out of my control.

[tkmorris]

8. No. No it isn't

You could support life in prison without parole.

[WindRavenX]

2. when you have a system of revenge instead of a system of justice...

...the blood of innocents will always be spilled.

America's prison system is not about justice. It's about punishment. I think the attitudes of America, in general terms, is one of vengeance. Just look at the recent threads about the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki...

[Colobo]

4. I want pedophiles, serial killers and that kind of people to be punished.

As long as that happens, the system is working.

[WindRavenX]

5. Ah, so when the government takes a life, *then* it's justice.

NT

[Colobo]

6. When the worst kind of social pariahs are punished by law

Justice is served, in my opinion.

[WindRavenX]

9. Totally. Eye for an eye, and all that.

Works everytime!

[Az]

10. How exactly does vengeance make the world better?

Does vengeance make the dead come back to life? Does vengeance undo the harm that has been done?

Look, the concept of vengeance is a primitive reaction to how our mind works. We learn things by observing others. Once we have learned something we try to share it with others by showing it to them as well. In this way we spread the idea. But when someone does something wrong to us we wish to show them how we feel it was wrong to do that so we attempt to return to them the same harm they delivered to us.

The trouble is this does not actually work to correct anything. It only satisfies a basic urge. For crimes of any significant magnitude it is not possible to return the same level of harm given in such a way that the criminal will learn from the emotional experience.

Instead what is required is examining the base causes and motivations behind their actions. Trying to undo the thinking or conditions that create such monsters does much more to improve things than mere vengeance could ever do.

Vengeance does nothing to balance the world. It is just an emotional primitive reaction to a complex problem.

[mudesi]

12. And the Republicans have successfully exploited it

Just like every single other emotional crutch that the Republicans have exploited to gain power. People want to deny that their base emotional response to a heinous criminal is uncivilized and barbaric. It takes some rational thought to realize that capital punishment is morally reprehensible, period.

[slick8790]

21. You make a good point.

But I fail to see any benefit in giving these monsters 3 meals a day, housing, and free medical care for the rest of their lives at the expense of the very people they wronged. Most prisons, excepting maximum security ones, are getting more luxuries as time goes on. A lot of prisoners live better than some of the poorer people in America.

That said, I only support the death penalty under extremely strict circumstances. If i decided it, I wouldn't feel comfortable without an eyewitness and a DNA test, or a confession from the person. If there's any miniscule doubt, i don't support the death penalty. But when for all certainties the person did it, then i do.

Vengeance doesn't bring people back, but it gives the families and friends of the victim closure, right or wrong as that may be.

[kdmorris]

31. Confessions are often complete crap

If you hurt someone enough and threaten to keep doing it, they will confess to anything. That's why confessions under torture are really pretty unreliable.

It's bullshit to say that lots of prisoners live better than the poorer people in America. You got any statistics to back that up? Hard proof? They don't have luxuries. Life in prison sucks. If life in prison were so great, why doesn't everyone want to do it? Why don't you go do something to get yourself stuck there?

In addition to the other issues I have with your post, let me point out a few things. African Americans make up 80% of the death penalty cases. Guess that's because they are naturally just criminals, huh? No, it's because when they go to court, they are more likely to be seen as not valuable to society, especially if they are accused of killing a white person. Some reading for you:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=105

As long as the death penalty is applied unfairly and has the chance of applying to ANY innocent person, we allow our basest human instincts to rule our government and we are not civilized. And therefore, the death penalty is barbarous and should be banned.

[mudesi]

7. The system that kills pedophiles is the same system that kills the innocent

This ought to be a deal breaker for you. Why isn't it? Either you care about the state sanctioned murder of innocent civilians, or you don't.

[sandnsea]

26. The goal is a safe society

Punishing the mentally ill does nothing to improve anybody's safety. You may need to keep repeat offenders locked away for life, but that has nothing to do with punishment. That's just reflecting the limits of our ability to cure social and psychiatric disorders. The need for punishment and revenge is actually getting in the way of producing a rational system that houses violent offenders instead of pot smokers and petty thieves.

[BlooInBloo]

3. (shrug) The mob wants blood. The prospect of getting the *wrong* blood immaterial to them...

... And moreover, the mob wants *The State* to have this power. The mob actually *trusts* The State to implement this non-remediable action correctly. Despite all historical evidence to the contrary.

The mob is a bunch of fucking mean, bigoted, and stupid people.

[TahitiNut]

14. After all, if our system of "justice" is to be a deterrent ...

... then what difference does it make who's used as an example to "deter" others? None. That's why the "deterrence advocates" really don't care.

[moondust]

11. What a coincidence.

Source: Associated Press, N.Y. Times Jun 21, 2000

Texas Gov. George W. Bush defended his state’s legal system Wednesday as “fair and just” and said there was no need for a moratorium on executions. “As far as I’m concerned there has not been one innocent person executed since I’ve become governor,” Bush said. Since he took office 5 1/2 years ago, 134 inmates have been executed in Texas. Bush said he has analyzed each capital case that reaches his desk.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/George_W__Bush_Crime.htm#Death_Penalty


Okay, okay, so he missed it by 10...

[AlCzervik]

13. when i went to The Tower of London the guard made special mention about

where more people had been executed--The Tower or Texas---Texas and bush was the winner.

[moondust]

18. Who won in the torture category?

[MrSlayer]

15. Forensic techniques are far better today than they were even ten years ago.

Almost all of the cases that acquitted the people on death row were because of DNA evidence. DNA evidence is used universally now so the chances of railroading someone due to circumstantial evidence is lessened by a large degree. And I'm for the DP in "no doubt about it" cases. Take that asshole who executed the 3 college kids in Newark earlier in the week for example. He admitted it, turned himself in and there is no doubt that he did it. None. They should hang him right now, immediately. In fact, somehow he was out on bail after being charged with raping a five year old girl. He should never been able to kill those kids because he should have been in jail. And after his conviction on that case he should have been executed. Almost one hundred percent of the time, the excrement that rape and kill children have prior molestation charges. Kill them on the first offense and you never have to worry about them again and you don't have to waste valuable resources feeding, clothing and housing them. Murderers, violent rapists and pedophiles should all be executed right after conviction.

I have no trouble sleeping.

[mudesi]

17. NO system is perfect and you know it

There will always, I repeat, always be cases where innocent people are executed.

Let me say that again: Always. Guaranteed. 100%. Innocent people will be murdered by the government. It will happen. Am I being clear enough?

It's a deal breaker. You cannot defend the death penalty. There is literally nothing you can say that will make you right on this issue. It is abhorrent and it needs to be abolished worldwide.

[MrSlayer]

23. I disagree with you.

Just because a tiny percentage of innocent people have been executed in the past does not mean we shouldn't kill those we know are 100% guilty such as the example I provided above.

[mudesi]

30. There is no system that will provide for that guarantee

The same system that kills those who are 100% guilty will be the one to kill those who are innocent. You cannot guarantee, with 100% certainty, the guilt or innocence of everyone all the time. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. There is no possible way to execute the guilty without sometimes executing the innocent. Your position advocates the deaths of innocents.

[truedelphi]

24. Dateline has had at least one segment devoted to the tale

Of some innocent whose DNA was mishandled inside the lab that did the testing and the innocent suspect got nailed for a crime they did not commit.

If I remember the case correctly their eyewitness realized it wasn't them and they were freed after the lab errors were brought to light.

And the recent case of the Lacrosse players should speell out a lesson or two about DNA and justice. A case is only as just as the people prosecuting it.

[book_worm]

16. Taking the life of anybody has never brought any body back from the grave

Somehow I think that the worse punishment is life, truly life, in prison without parole--thinking about what you did and sitting in a small cell with maybe one hour of exercise per day. To me that is death on earth.

[Oeditpus Rex]

19. Precisely why I don't support it as a matter of policy

If you're going to execute someone in the name of justice, you'd better be 100 percent sure you've got the right person. But as long as these decisions are made by a jury of "peers" (a term which elicits from me a sardonic chuckle), the odds of always being 100 percent sure aren't very good.

[TreasonousBastard]

20. For more on this sort of stuff...

the Death Penalty Information Center is one of the primary resources for info on state killing:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/

The National Coalition Against the Death Penalty is another, and it has links to state anti-DP organizations:

http://www.ncadp.org/

(Alas, it appears to be down as I type this, but it should be back up soon)

Many churches and other religious organizations are doing anti-death penalty work. I've worked with UUs, Methodists, Catholics, and the Peace Churches and their service organizations to get rid of the death penalty. There are others out there, too, including even some Baptists.

[provis99]

22. Life in prison isn't even punishment

At worst, its boring. I know. Frankly, some of these guys have more fun in prison than when they're in the real world. So don't kid yourself that sending someone to prison is "punishment"; its not, its merely warehousing. Convicts don't fear prison; they fear death, physical pain, loss of property, that's about it. If they don't fear, then there's no punishment. So spare me the crap about life without parole being worse than death. Life without parole for some of these guys I knew meant three square meals a day, basketball courts, cable tv in their cells, all the reading material they wanted, pornographic pictures, all the illegal drugs they want (from the guards), once-a-month sex visits from girlfriends, cigarettes. They had a great time in prison.

[liberal renegade]

25. A geat time in prison

yeah, right......

[frustrated_lefty]

27. That makes about 4 wrongfully convicted/year. Not a bad ratio.

[Mythsaje]

28. We house political prisoners, petty thieves, and fuckups

with killers, rapists, and madmen. Occasionally we kill one of them and don't really seem to care if they're killers or fuckups. As long as someone dies, too much of America is okay with that.

In the meantime, the nastiest motherfuckers in prison are running the place, the weak are treated with savage contempt, and the only people satisfied by the arrangement are motherfuckers too twisted to give a shit.

Fucking justice system. Yeah, right. Like I should trust THESE motherfuckers to determine who deserves to die? They can't even justify the punishment they're laying on half the people in there. The prisons are warehouses and crime academies. Most of the people who go in come out MORE fucked up than when they went in.

You want to bet how many of those inmates who get released are suffering from PTSD and no one notices? And then they carry the psychological environment of the prison system into the outside world and people wonder why too many of them can't cope?

Our whole system is a fucking travesty, and no part of it more so than the death penalty.

Yeah, maybe some people deserve to die. But why in the hell trust THOSE motherfuckers to be capable of making that determination?

I'd rather my money go to feed the most vicious bastard three squares for the rest of his miserable life than kill one person who didn't and wouldn't kill someone else. The state doesn't get to commit murder in my name any more for the sake of "law and order" than it does for the sake of "nation building."

I do not lend my name to any of it.

[spindoctor]

29. It's a strange mindset that puts the US apart from any other civilized country

And I don't get it. I just don't get it.
But then again, there are a lot of things I don't get about this country, which is why I'm out here bitching with the rest of you.