DAYM! Virginia Outrage: First Casualty of New Speeding Laws ($1050+!!)

[The Cleaner]

Although I have to say after living in Fairfax County people do drive crazy especially on the major highways such as 66 and 495.

So is this a good thing or bad? Will it be effective in curtailing speeding or is it too Big Brotherish?

The labor pains were coming, so Jessica Hodges got going. The 26-year-old bank teller from Burke sped toward Inova Fairfax Hospital, but before she got there, the law got her -- 57 mph in a 35 zone. Reckless driving.

Hodges's labor pains subsided -- they turned out to be a false alarm -- but the agony from her ticket is mounting. She was found guilty of the July 3 offense and given a $1,050 civil fee on top of a judge-imposed $100 fine and court costs, making her one of the first to be hit with Virginia's new "abusive driver fees," which have been greeted by widespread public outrage.

"It's crazy," said an unregretful Hodges. "Having a baby's more important. Of course I'm going to speed."

Anger and exasperation have been common sentiments recently in Fairfax General District Court, where fee-facing drivers such as Hodges have started to join the daily swarm of traffic offenders. After waiting hours to give their side of the story to judges -- several of whom seemed just as annoyed with the fees as defendants -- many nevertheless left owing enormous sums that they said would be difficult to pay.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/11/AR2007081101352.html?wpisrc=newsletter

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

1. She Should Be Locked Up!

Imagine, the nerve of her. Going 57 in a 35 Zone???!!! And just because she thought she was having a baby? That's a good one! Like being in labor somehow gives her the right to do 22 mph over the limit.

And she's lucky it's only $1,050. Sounds like a bargain. If she's not punished, she would be liable to spend that money on some unimportant stuff like her new child. We can't have that in this "family values" society. A BABY IS ONLY IMPORTANT WHILE IT'S UNBORN. That's why she's in this mess in the first place.

If only she had not been in such a hurry to have the child, she would have been fine, and the rights of the UNBORN would have been protected.

:sarcasm:

[VLC]

3. I guess the idea is she should have called an ambulance

Although if you don't have insurance, the traffic fine might be the cheaper way to go.

[Rosemary2205]

23. Point of fact

I've yet to see a single government force payment for emergency transport from someone who cannot pay. They will send out a bill but a phone call and a little paperwork can almost always make the bill just magically go away.

[VLC]

28. I wonder if that's true everywhere

Not sure how you know that, but I did a little searching, and found some articles that suggest either it's not true everywhere, or that people don't know that. I would think that if a bill is ignored and then collection attempts are made, the person would make that phone call or do that paperwork.

In any case, it sure seems like the government tries to collect:

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=5676

http://www.co.stokes.nc.us/budget/0405pbudgetmsg.htm

http://www.ci.hastings.mn.us/InsideCityHall/Council/CCMinutes/CCMinutes-20070305.pdf

http://www.town.scituate.ma.us/cgi-local/viewnews.cgi?category=4&id=1085833245

[Rosemary2205]

30. Every single one of your links supports what I said

Governments are not aggressive in collecting for unpaid EMS bills. One link said most of it's unpaid bills are people who got insurance checks for EMS services and just didn't realize they had to forward the money to the city. 2 other links were minutes of counsel meetings discussing writing off the charges because obviously the people owing cannot pay. And the forth discussed asking the state to mandate insurance companies send the EMS payment directly to EMS rather than the insured. None of these sources site sending the bills to collection agencies, attacking people's credit or garnishing wages.

No I cannot say for certain no local government ever does these things, but I have extensive contacts with local governments all over the country and have never heard of it. Every EMS I have ever heard of includes information in their billings about how to have the bill charged off in case of inablity to pay.

[VLC]

33. I don't see it that way

You said it's simple to take care of. The articles suggest otherwise.

In any cas, if you're right that's good news.

[Roy]

47. They may end up selling to a private collection agency...

Who will then after lots of interest, legal fees, and other fees finally destroy your credit rating and maybe even garnish your wages.

Either way it's bad law and once again another way to screw the average American trying to live their lives in peace.

[qanda]

2. Reading that whole story made me sad

People are struggling to live and shouldn't be put under such financial stress just to pay for road projects. Sure they should pay a fine, but it shouldn't be excessive to the point of making people unable to feed their family.

[Dogmudgeon]

4. She should have brokered an automatic weapons deal for a felon

The fine for that IIRC is about $500.

--p!

[liberalnurse]

5. Why didn't the Democratic Governor

veto this Bill?

[NeedleCast]

6. My Rep in VA sponsored this bill

I should also point out that he's a (R) and is a partner in a law firm...a law firm that does (wait for it).

Traffic Law.

I E-mailed him on this an he expressed his righteous indignation that I'd suggest he sponsored this bill for personal gain...the usual "I can't believe you'd suggest that I'd sponsor this bill for personal gain just because my firm stands to gain a huge number of clients." He goes on to tell me how much money it's going to raise for repair and construction work around the D.C. Beltway in Northern VA, how it's going to make reckless drivers less reckless and make people think twice before getting behind the wheel while intoxicated. Yeah, right.

Here's your first victim. A pregnant woman trying to get to a hospital.

Makes me sad.

[MindPilot]

10. I hate that fines-as-user-fees shit

If you need more money for transportation infrastructure, then raise the gas tax, charge me more for my plates, and tax vehicle purchases at a higher rate. I'm happy to spend the money to have decent roads and signals that work.

But please don't pretend this is going to save lives or make better drivers; it's extortion plain and simple.

[NeedleCast]

18. Yup, Pretty Much What I Told Him

This is nothing unusual from Dave Albo (the bill sponsor). He's about as useful as tits on a boar.

His excuse as to why the roads are so beat up in North VA is that the "fat cats" (his words) in Richmond wont give the north VA counties any money for roads although we are the highest volume traffic part of the state. So he sponsored this bill to raise money for local roads. When I pointed out this is a state-wide bill and that, from what I've seen, there's no designation on where the money it raises is going to go, that the "fat cats" in Richmond are not any more likely to send his district money than they are now. He never sent a reply to that. Shocker.

[KillCapitalism]

7. The Virginia Highway Patrol =

tax collectors with a gun.:mad:

[bbgrunt]

41. I remember when the police would provide escort in emergency situations.

[MindPilot]

8. IIRC the legislator who wrote that bill

is a traffic law attorney who will of course profit handsomely from this government-backed extortion.

[NeedleCast]

19. When I called him out on that, here's what he said

This is Dave Albo's (the bill sponsor) reply to my calling him out on this (he's my district rep, unfortunatly)

Dave Albo Said:

"Thanks for writing. Sounds like you have heard about the “Abuser Fee” bill from the internet. There is an article floating around that is completely misleading. There is no such thing as a $3000 traffic ticket. Like many things on the internet, the information out there is unreliable.

Sorry you don’t like the bill. In short, the premise of it was that people with good or even normal driving records should not have to pay the same amount as those who break the laws or amass a large number of tickets. I don’t think its fair for you to pay the same as the guy who is driving drunk, reckless or who gets four tickets in one year.

As for your allegation that I am using my office for my personal benefit, please excuse me if I get mad, but I have never used my House of Delegates position to benefit me personally. In fact, I lose tens of thousands of dollars doing this job. Specifically to address your allegation on this Abuser Fee bill somehow benefiting me, quite simply, this is an utterly false allegation. There is not a rational person in the world who would hire me, or any attorney, for $1,200 for an un-guaranteed possibility that they would get out of a $900 or $1050 ticket. I am offended that you would think that I would use my office to advance myself. My take-home pay from the House of Delegates is $900/mo. I don't do it for the money, I do it because I love the neighborhood in which I grew up and am trying my best to make it a great place to live.

In my efforts to make our neighborhood a great place to live, I have been listening to my constituents in Springfield and South County. I have been living here since 1970. And everyone has one main complaint - transportation. People have been complaining, asking, begging for years for a solution to the transportation nightmare. One constituent noted that since it takes him 1 1/2 hours to get to work, he can’t be an SYC soccer coach for his kids. Long commutes means that none of us can otherwise have a life outside of work. Three hours a day in a car is a waste of a life, and I intend on solving the problem.

So a number of years ago I started trying to find a way to build some roads. Along with other Delegates from NOVA, we put in bills to pay for NOVA roads with existing revenue. If you look at some of my bills, you will see bills to change the transpo funding formulas, bills to make the rest of VA send us $ for roads, bills to allow NOVA to keep some of the money it sends to Richmond to pay for its own roads. Every year, year after year, the bills were killed. The bottom line is that NOVA has 21 Delegates and the rest of VA has 79. And the 79 refuse to send $10,000,000 of their funds to NOVA.

So, what I wanted to do was not possible.

So what was left? The way I look at it, we could do nothing, whine and cry about it and therefore never build a new road in NOVA, or we could solve the problem.

I decided to solve the problem.

Solving the problem required raising a lot of money. I rejected general tax increases proposed by the Senate. I rejected their gas tax, income tax and sales tax increases. I wanted to look at user fees—to look at activities that generate traffic, and raise money off of those activities.

The story goes on much longer, but to get to the point that you wrote: How did the Abuser Fees come about?

Well one idea was to charge every driver $10-$20/yr to raise $ for roads. Instead, I thought, "Why should good drivers, the drivers who don't break the laws, pay the same as those who break the laws?" Thus, the Abuser Fee concept was born. We looked at NJ. They have had such a plan in place for years.

Our plan charges about 2% of the drivers in VA. It charges large fees for the commission of traffic crimes (any traffic offense which is punishable by jail time e.g. Reckless, DWI, Driving on a Suspended License, Vehicular Manslaughter, etc.) and those with a large amount of DMV demerit points—any person with a -8. (Note that you can have as good as a +5. And any person who hits a -8 just needs to take a safe driving course on line and get another +5. Thus a -8 can really be a -13 before penalty, which is equivalent of getting 4 moving violations in one year). Remember that this bill is not retroactive, so it only applies to demerit points earned after July 1, 2007."

[MindPilot]

25. What a bunch of BS doublespeak!!

Well one idea was to charge every driver $10-$20/yr to raise $ for roads. Instead, I thought, "Why should good drivers, the drivers who don't break the laws, pay the same as those who break the laws?" Thus, the Abuser Fee concept was born. We looked at NJ. They have had such a plan in place for years.

The big-ass hole in that line of reasoning is if everyone were to obey the law--which is of course the ultimate goal--there would be an insufficient and unreliable revenue stream for infrastructure. Ferchrissakes he's talking about less than the cost of a cup of coffee per month. Evidently it's better to chip away at our rights than to raise taxes. (And before any of you safety nazis think I'm talking about a right to drive fast, I'm not. I'm referring to the fact that this law was written to exclude itself from judicial review.)

As for his other argument, if I'm facing a healthily increase in insurance rates and points on my license, damn straight I'll spend $1200 to clear a $1050 ticket.

OK, Dave, tell me again how this isn't benefiting your law firm. :eyes:

[NeedleCast]

39. Your 2nd to last sentance is almost exactly what I sent to him in reply

This was part of my response to his E-mail:

NeedlesCast said:

"You ask if I think there is a rational person that would pay 1,200$ in legal fees to get out of a 1,050$ ticket and I'll agree that no, there's probably not, but then you and I are both smart people and we both know there's a lot more than a thousand dollar fine involved, don't we? There are points on your license, there are the insurance hike the driver will face. Heck, I've seen just how much the insurance hit hurts. I was at fault in a fender bender in 2006, my first accident since 1997. I have no moving violations on my driving record in over a decade. That didn't stop the six month premium on my car from going from 550 dollars to over 800. So yes, I'll agree that you're probably not going to get hired by some random lead foot *just* to get them out of traffic fine or just to get out of a higher insurance premium or just to avoid points, but do I think your firm is likely to see an increase in business because all three of those factors are almost always involved? You betcha! I sure as hell would. Would I risk 1200 dollars for a chance (and I'd assume a decent one) of getting out of something that had the chance, over the long haul, getting me out of several thousand dollars in combined tickets and insurance costs? Yes sir!"

This is the non-answer he sent back

Dave Albo Said:

There are points on your license, there are the insurance hike the driver will face.

Yes, that is why people hire attorneys, to try and keep them out of jail and keep them from losing their license, which has been the law for decades.

[lynne]

9. I have two schools of thought on this situation -

#1: The cop should have given her an escort to the hospital instead of giving her a ticket.

#2: Why the devil was she driving herself to the hospital in labor? Obviously in a residential area with a 35 mph zone, she endangered herself, her unborn child and all residents by speeding 20+. Calling a cab or an ambulance would have solved the problem and not endangered anyone.

VA joins several other states with Abusive Driver fees. I'm all for curbing dangerous driving in any way possible and if it also helps build roads, so much the better. My only problem with the fees is that they should apply to everyone, not just VA residents.

[MindPilot]

11. well as long as we are speculating...

My last ambulance ride was $850; fortunately *I* have insurance...the same may not be true for this woman.

I live within a few minutes of downtown; even so, if I pick up the phone right now and call a cab, it will be a good 30 minutes before it shows up.

It's not really fair to second guess a woman in labor; people in pain don't always exercise the best judgment.

And for the "fees" are quite simply "cruel and unusual" in that they far outweigh the severity of the offense. IIRC the bill was written to prevent any judicial review and THAT is the real issues buried in all this.

[napi21]

38. I agree we should not second guess her, but she REALLY

shouldn't have been driving herself! If you ever had children you'd realize labor pains CAN incapasitate you!!!! I can guarantee you I COULDN'T HAVE driven a car while I was in hard labor.

I don't know what her best option would have been or what her circumstances were, but there HAD to be a better one than she chose!

[MedleyMisty]

12. Here's a tip

Don't speed.

I will admit extenuating circumstances in this particular case, but in general - leave on time. Don't put other people in danger. Learn your numbers so you can understand the big black numbers on the white sign and the numbers on your odometer.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. So, since you obviously believe $1,000 is not too much, how much would be TOO much?

5,000? 10,000? 20,000? 50,000?

[Captain Hilts]

13. Police will be reluctant to enforce this law. That's BAD, as people do drive FAR to quickly there

You have to spit out the window to make sure you're moving.

[NeedleCast]

20. Very Good Point

I have two good friends who are sherrifs in north VA and they've all but said they won't write reckless driving tickets anymore because of the massive increase in the time they'd spend in court if they did because while most people who get pinched for speeding aren't going to take a day off of work to go to court to get out of a 100 dollar fine, you can bet your ass they'll do it to get out of a 1,100 dollar fine. That means the traffic cops are spending a much larger amount of time in court than on the streets.

[Skidmore]

14. Iowa reinstated the 70 mi/hr speed limit a year or so ago. Last Friday

there was a two-car collision on I-80 in which both vehicles caught on fire. A 10 mile section of I-80 W was closed for 3 hours. Two people died because someone lost control of a car going at a higher speed than it would have a couple of years ago. A 2-year old survived that collision and his mother didn't.

Drive the speed limit, and make the speed limit one which will save lives and energy.

[uncle ray]

26. you got a link so we can get the rest fo the story?

[seabeyond]

31. damn good thing there were NO accidents at 55, of course. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

40. Accidents increasd dramatically btwn DC and Balt. when the speed limite was raised. nt

[The River]

15. My "Car" is 30 Years Old

and can barely go the speed limit.
I've been driving in Virginia for 40 years
and had only one speeding ticket..38 years ago.
But still, this is excessive and will be challenged in court.
It only applies to Virginia residents. Out of state drivers
aren't subject to the civil fine.
One Richmond judge deemed it unconstitutional.

[qdemn7]

16. Once again...

Legislators and Lawyers have cooked up a scheme to take money from those least able to afford it, just like mandatory car insurance in Texas.

[Solon]

17. Why can't they base fines on ability to pay?

As an example, for speeding, a normal working class person gets fined 50-100 bucks depending on the severity of the offense, for Bill Gates, a billion dollars or so. Some countries, particularly in Scandinavia, have this policy.

[NeedleCast]

22. For the same reason that they shouldn't

give one person 30 days in jail and a fine for and one person a year in jail and a fine for the same crime.

Justice shouldn't care how much money you make.

[Solon]

27. Not comparable at all...

A person in jail is punished equally when they are poor or rich. But, for fines in particular, a poor person may be fined up to 10% or more of their income for the week/month, whatever, while a rich person, for the same crime, may get fined as little as .000001% of their income for the same crime. I'm not saying rich folks should be punished more severely, I'm saying they should be made to make similar sacrifices as poor and middle class do when committing the same crimes. Poor people already have handicaps in the legal system, they are more likely to serve longer jail sentences, get the death penalty, etc. than rich people, why is it so horrendous to ask for some equality here?

[Deja Q]

43. Well, other countries know flat fees aren't fair to some...

Amusing you mentioned Bill Gates - he was arrested for some traffic violation.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/gatesmug1.html

Guess what year it was, based on this picture:



He really looks sorry, doesn't he?

[Rosemary2205]

21. That woman is a selfish ass and should get the book thrown at her!!

No I'm not being sarcastic. 57 is freeway speed. No one, and I mean NO ONE has a right to put other people's lives at risk - I don't care what her "reason" was. If the medical emergency is so serious then call the paramedics - don't put someone else's life at risk because your crisis du jour is more important than anyone else's life you god damned selfish asshole.

[rurallib]

24. Quote from Guili via Dkos says it all

“Freedom is not a concept in which people can do anything they want, be anything they can be. Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.”
http://www.rmchronicle.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1138

[treestar]

29. We ought to declare a day where everyone scrupulously obeys

all traffic laws and see what happens.

It might take twice as long to get anywhere.

Or it might dramatically lower the accident rate.

It could also be a big psychological boost for more use of mass transportation.

[MindPilot]

32. That would be an interesting experiment. I think the real outcome

would be local governments shrieking about the loss of revenue they've come to depend on from speed traps, red light cams and other assorted taxes on getting there.

[AngryOldDem]

34. No such thing as a mitigating factor?

That's bullshit.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

37. For punishment-fetish deviants, that & "excessive punishment" are dirty criminal-lovin' librul talk.

[alarimer]

35. This is excessive; I hate speeders as much as the next person

but fines need to be reasonable. Say, $10 for every mile over the speed limit. That would make this fine around $200. It is much more likely to actually be paid, rather than fought in court. As someone upthread said, cops would be reluctant to give out these huge fines because most people would fight them and he would spend too much of his time in court, instead of enforcing traffic laws like he should be.

[Deja Q]

42. And I'm supposed to feel sorry for her, because...?

Sock it to her, that's asinine - to do 57MPH in a 35MPH zone. It's 35 for a good reason.

Never mind feeling labor pains, that's no condition to drive in!

If she was about to deliver, why not get hubby to help? Boyfriend?!! Call a taxi, perhaps? How about 911 for pity's sake?!?!

Hell, calling even a pizza delivery service would be more effective that driving to the hospital herself.

She's an imbecile who endangered others' lives, her unborn baby's life, and her own. Holy trifecta.

The public is wrong on this issue.

Now, in Wisconsin, the usual residential speed limit is 25MPH. THAT is truly stupid; more people are looking at the speedometer and brake pedal rather than the road because no cruise control works at 25MPH and nobody wants a ticket in that state... But I digressed.

[libodem]

44. Betcha these are the same people that

fight hate crime laws. By that I mean extra penalties for bigotry. Abusive driver fees sound like an excuse to make up for the tax cuts to the wealthy by 'taxing' elsewhere. We'll need a new Supermax for traffic violators. Is Debtor's Prison very far off? Maybe that Mama can raise the new bambino in prison when she ends up in the Poorhouse trying to pay for the hospital and the court fines. One of the reasons I have been taught to hate North Korea is that there are 300,000 people locked up in prisons. The whole family goes. Do you think we are very far off? Which ever thread was opining about a % of income for a fine is right on. That is the only way to make an equitable law. To some the 1000 dollars is not that much. It would sink me right now!

[B Calm]

45. If she had been driving a semi, the fine would be twice what she got!

Some of these fines anymore for speeding are ridiculously high.

[tom_paine]

46. Bushmerika grows more like the Old Soviet Union every day

Sounds like the Loyal Bushie Comrades down in VA are ahead of the Third World curve. Bankrupt the peasants wherever possible. Leave them with no recourse against injustice. Watch your own Loyal Bushie bank account swell, since Loyal Bushie Comrades are NEVER guilty of corruption, nothing you do is corupt. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

:puke:

[hedgehog]

48. According to Mapquest, it's a 12 minute trip from Burke VA to Inova Fairfax Hospital

It's a pretty direct route, but most of the turns are within a half mile of each other. the longest stretch is 2.6 miles on VA 620. pArt of the route cuts through the campus of George mAson University.

She endangered her life, the baby's life and the life of pedestrians and other drivers not expecting someone to be driving at that speed. The article implies her fine is high because she is a repeat offender. While I don't approve of using traffic fines to raise revenue, it sounds like this woman needs a stiff fine to get her attention.

[Deja Q]

49. And she could have prevented the need to speed to the hospital too...

The one stiff thing she did get had contributed to her excuse FOR speeding...

:hide: