No War Has Ever Been Fought In The Name Of Wicca

[DemocratSinceBirth]

My friend left that message on my voice mail...

[valerief]

1. LOL! Give it time. nt

[KittyWampus]

2. Neolithic man didn't fight? Over resources? I find that improbable.

[Madspirit]

9. I think we're probably talking about Modern Wiccans...but you knew that...n/t

[LWolf]

15. Resources are not religion. n/t

[KittyWampus]

51. resources in tribal societies are allocated according to ones kinship/clan membership

and THAT is determined, as all other cultural institutions, by the group religion.

[LWolf]

55. Do you have some evidence

that neolithic, or all, tribal societies allocated resources according only to kinship/clan, which was determined by religion as the only, or as one, factor?

If this were so, it would seem to indicate a competition for resources within a clan, not with other clans.

Still, I think it is a stretch to attribute tribal competition for territory or resources to religion.

[Posteritatis]

36. The Neolithic period extended into the fifties? Wow. (nt)

[supernova]

3. I think Boudica would argue with that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica

[Madspirit]

10. I think we're probably talking about Modern Wiccans...but you knew that...n/t

[supernova]

14. The way the statement is phrased

no I can't assume that "we're {only} talking about modern Wiccans" here.

If you're going to say "No war has ever been fought in the name of Wicca" that means, no wars have ever, through all the time humans have been practicing Wicca, been fought through it or over it. It's simply not a valid statement. Boudica negates it. She was defending her home and her culture, including their pagan religious practices at the time.

It would be better to say in recent times no one has fought a war over Wicca. That would be a valid statement.

To my way of thinking, people fight because they really crave power and dominance over others, and go looking for justifications for it, including the religions they practice at the time, including Wicca, Christianity, Islam, etc. It depends whether you are the one seeking dominance or the one being dominated whether war is an aggressive action or a defensive one.

[LeftyMom]

22. There were no pre-modern Wiccans

Wicca is a combination of elements of existing religious practice and made-up stuff*, plus existing habits of secret societies and occult groups, with some of Gerald Gardner's personal kinks thrown in for spice, and dates to sometime in the middle of the 20th century.

OTOH, there were pre-modern pagans of any number of beliefs, many of which inform modern wiccan practice, and many of them fought all the damn time.

*and before anybody gets bent out of shape, so is every other religion.

[Madspirit]

23. Wicca is 20th century

"Wiccan morality is largely based on the (often misunderstood) Wiccan Rede: An it harm none, do what ye will. This is usually interpreted as a declaration of the freedom to act, along with the necessity of taking responsibility for what follows from one's actions. Another element of Wiccan Morality comes from the Law of Threefold Return, which is understood to mean that whatever one does to another person or thing (benevolent or otherwise) returns with triple force.

Many Wiccans also seek to cultivate a set of eight virtues mentioned in Doreen Valiente's Charge of the Goddess, these being mirth, reverence, honour, humility, strength, beauty, power and compassion."



Now show me the death toll comparisons. It's not even in Wiccan nature to conquer. It is inherent in Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

Lee

[gratuitous]

4. Who would be fooled by that?

But if you can wrap up your murderous vendetta in a flag or a Bible, there are plenty of people who are happy to pretend that they're killing in the name of something worthwhile.

[icymist]

5. Just give it time.

I'm certain that if Wicca were given the same circumstances as Christianity, Buddism, Islam, etc. than, indeed there would be wars fought for these causes. Despite what the past was, fight the new
oppression that's G.W. Bush!

[ncabot22]

6. Considering Wicca was formed in the 20th century

Your friend is right.

[eShirl]

7. This is the correct answer.

[Madspirit]

12. There have been plenty of wars in the 20th and 21st century

So still a much better record than any of the other religions...
Lee

[ncabot22]

16. Give it time

Have you ever heard Wiccans going at it verbally--over who is truly Wiccan? The Gardnerians don't like the Alexandrians. The Alexandrians don't like Ray Buckland. And everyone hates Silver Ravenwolf. Oy! :)

I don't trust most religions period. There is always something they carp and whine about.

[Madspirit]

24. I don't really care about arguing....

"Wiccan morality is largely based on the (often misunderstood) Wiccan Rede: An it harm none, do what ye will. This is usually interpreted as a declaration of the freedom to act, along with the necessity of taking responsibility for what follows from one's actions. Another element of Wiccan Morality comes from the Law of Threefold Return, which is understood to mean that whatever one does to another person or thing (benevolent or otherwise) returns with triple force.

Many Wiccans also seek to cultivate a set of eight virtues mentioned in Doreen Valiente's Charge of the Goddess, these being mirth, reverence, honour, humility, strength, beauty, power and compassion."



Now show me the death toll comparisons. It's not even in Wiccan nature to conquer. It is inherent in Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

Lee

[ncabot22]

35. I wasn't arguing

I thought the smiley face conveyed an attempt at humour. Obviously, it failed.

[billyoc]

8. Scientology either.

:eyes:

[Madspirit]

11. ...and that means?

I don't consider Scientology any more of a cult than any other religion and you're right, no war has ever been fought in the name of Scientology so I guess they are BETTER than the other cults...Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.
Lee

[wuushew]

13. What about Battlefield Earth?

Also L. Ron Hubbard declared war on Mexico in WWII through improper use of live fire exercises off the coast of California.

[Madspirit]

26. ...and did this happen?

Show me death toll comparisons:

Judaism

Christianity

Islam

Scientology

Wicca

[Az]

34. Self delete

Responded to the wrong issue.

[xchrom]

17. humans will use any excuse to have themselves a war.

that they haven't used one -- wiccan -- is simply because it hasn't been opportune.

and yes i know you're talking about modern wiccan -- after all there was a relatively accrimonious divorce among wiccans and pagans.

[Liberal Veteran]

18. Bah! Pastafarians art more peaceful than thou!

Although there have been a couple of spats over the best marinara at their churches.

[independentpiney]

21. You have to watch out for the Al-Fredans

They can be a bit fanatical

[shireen]

37. LOL!

may the sauce be with you,.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

38. *snort*

Was it at the Semolina Conclave? They are known for always wanting to get their whey.

Ramen. And ramen.

[Marr]

19. If Wiccans represented a larger social group, there would be.

Most of the wars that were ostensibly fought on religious grounds were really fueled by economic issues. Religion is an easy way to divide people, and convince an otherwise peaceful person that their neighbor is actually a wicked thing that must be removed.

[Madspirit]

27. Death Toll Comparisons Please...

"Wiccan morality is largely based on the (often misunderstood) Wiccan Rede: An it harm none, do what ye will. This is usually interpreted as a declaration of the freedom to act, along with the necessity of taking responsibility for what follows from one's actions. Another element of Wiccan Morality comes from the Law of Threefold Return, which is understood to mean that whatever one does to another person or thing (benevolent or otherwise) returns with triple force.

Many Wiccans also seek to cultivate a set of eight virtues mentioned in Doreen Valiente's Charge of the Goddess, these being mirth, reverence, honour, humility, strength, beauty, power and compassion."



Now show me the death toll comparisons. It's not even in Wiccan nature to conquer. It is inherent in Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

But I want to see some numbers...death toll please:

Judaism
Christianity
Judaism
Wicca

Lee

[Marr]

31. How can I give you numbers for a hypothetical about a religion that's

been around less than 100 years?

Christianity must've seemed like a fairly peaceful cult to the Romans. As it grew to define a larger social group, other factors began to figure in. It became a tool of manipulation, not just an ideal to be pursued by a relatively small number of the faithful.

But really, putting that aside- are you're going to sit there and tell me that your imaginary forces are somehow superior to that other religion's imaginary forces, and then deny that your religion could be used to separate people? You're doing it right now.

[Madspirit]

32. No...you're using it to separate JUST because I don't agree with you...

...and yet, I still have not declared war on you.

...and I'm not Wiccan. I'm an atheist and we've started no wars either.

I just have many Wiccan friends and always have. ...the most peaceful people I've ever met.

Monotheistic religionists just seem to have a really hard time admitting to their bloodthirsty nature.

Lee

[Marr]

33. *You're* using it to separate, not I.

I've been saying that people are people, and religion is going to function in a similar way on a macro scale, no matter what the core beliefs are. You've been saying that Wiccans are somehow inherently more peaceful people. You just reiterated it one post ago-- something about monotheistic people having a "bloodthirsty nature"?

[Madspirit]

53. I think different religions attract people with different personalities

I do believe that. I think it is inherent in the people who PICK Wicca, to be more peaceful. Yup, that is EXACTLY what I am saying and what I mean. All the Wiccans I have ever known CHOSE it because of it's peaceful and more natural path.

You got it.
Lee

[Marr]

57. I can accept that.

What I'm saying is that, were Wicca to become as widespread as Christianity (or Islam, Hinduism, etc.), then it would cease to be a club for like-minded people, and would instead be a social force. It would be just as divorced from it's roots as Christianity, just as dogmatic, just as much a tool of social control.

[Madspirit]

58. Still not exactly

The three major religions, whether religionists like to admit it or not, all have at their most fundamental base, the rule to convert or conquer. Wicca has no such tenet.

Lee

[Marr]

59. They didn't always have that element.

It became more and more prevalent as the religion-- particularly Christianity-- became more and more widespread and ingrained in the culture. Christians weren't violently converting people at the religion's inception. Back then it was just one more harmless cult, something like Wicca is today.

Besides, religious violence is hardly confined to the west. The far east has had their wars born of religion as well-- and there beliefs are based in wholly different traditions.

If Wicca were tied into the power structure of some nation, if it was the dominant religion of some large area, it'd be just as twisted and compromised as Christianity, or Islam, or anything else is today.

I understand what you're saying. I think you're comparing apples to oranges. It might be worth comparing first century Christianity to modern Wicca, but modern Christianity is part of the power structure. It's not just a gathering point for like-minded people anymore.

[NutmegYankee]

50. Interesting question for you.

A few Communist nations claimed to be officially Atheist religious wise, and they attacked other countries in wars. Afghanistan is an example. Why do those wars not count?

That aside, I agree that Religion is a major source of conflict.

[Madspirit]

56. I would think their guiding force is Communism, not Atheism n/t

[cobalt1999]

20. If there were around a billion of them, they would too.

Humans will always find some excuse to fight. If there were enough of Wiccans, they'd start factions and either start fighting with each other or others who viewed their beliefs as B.S.

We are not a well behaved species.

[BlooInBloo]

25. Um, there are only like 12 of them.

[Madspirit]

28. Un uh...I've known 100s of Wiccans Bloo...

We have more than 12 on DU.

Lee

[BlooInBloo]

29. Ok, mebbe I exaggerated a LITTLE bit. The general point still holds.

[Madspirit]

30. Yup...n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

39. Link here at DU. I also have met 100s of Wiccans and although not Wiccan I do use some

Wiccan rituals.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=262

[Toasterlad]

43. Willow is Totally Going to Kick Your Ass.

[BlooInBloo]

45. (groan) I'm gonna meet all 12 of them in this thread, aren't I?

:rofl:

[Hekate]

46. Oh, yeah.

:rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

47. Well, I opened my big mouth - I'll take what's comin',

[Madspirit]

52. I LOVE Willow and Tara

I guess I have to admit, Willow can kick ass. She can even strip you of your skin.
Lee

[toddaa]

40. Yet

Wicca's been around for what, 70 years? Give it time. Jesus' minions didn't start killing people in earnest until they had the backing of some despotic backwater warlord scumbag by the name of Charlemagne.

[LiberalEsto]

41. But pagans have certainly fought

to protect their sacred groves and their chosen way of worship from the onslaughts of Christianity and other religions. People in the Baltic states, which were the last countries in Europe to be (forcibly) Christianized, fought tooth and nail to drive off the armies of the Popes.

[Madspirit]

54. THAT is defensive fighting

Not the same as aggressive conquering fighting.
Lee

[RiDuvessa]

42. So?

It's been around, what? Fifty years? Seventy tops? Christianity's been around two thousand and Judiaism longer then that. Even Islam has been around for several hundred years.

Give it time, the right leader, and a couple of factions debating on "true" Wiccanism, and you will get a war. May take a while, but it will be there.

[NutmegYankee]

44. Its a bogus statistic.

Pagans have fought many wars in antiquity, but modern Wicca hasn't much like say, Methodists haven't gone on a Crusade. Christians have done that in the past, but most modern offshoots, like Methodists, etc, have not.

[Hekate]

48. It's not a statistic; it's a statement of belief.

Not to quibble over words or anything...
:hi:

Hekate

[NutmegYankee]

49. My point was:

If you can attack a modern offshoot of Christianity for the offenses of others of similar beliefs in ages long past, the same should go for modern derivations of Paganism.

No offense meant to anybody.

:hi: