Is the American Civil War Still being fought?

[icymist]

Seeing how our Democratic representatives have caved in lately to the Republicans, this question stands on it's own. They're voting along country lines. That is the old Confederacy.and IMO the Civil War has never been completed and what we are now experiencing is a product brought forth from that unfinished conflict. I wish I could explain this to you better. There was the first Civil War from 1860 through 1865. The Second Civil War was fought during the early sixties with the Civil Rights marches. There is a third Civil War and it's being fought right now, in political divisions. The Blue and Grey are now the Red and Blue. We have a president and vice president, both from Texas , a duo to the old Confederacy, claiming that their 'elite', a group of ruling over everone eles, are infallible. That is an elite of superior males ruling over the rest of the population. I see this happening through certain men having total control through their finances, gaining total Independence from any outside entity while employing corporations to enslave the general population. Now these people have tools to their disposal like the Patriot Act and unliminting wiretapping access through the NSA.

[MADem]

1. Well, "they" voted against Macaca and for Webb in VA. nt

[Totally Committed]

2. And, he just voted to extend FISA.

Your point?

What the hell good is he if he's going to sell us out on our Right to privacy?


TC

[MADem]

3. And his election helped to enable Senate investigations. So what's YOUR point?

Is FISA, which has a six month time limit on it, your ONE ISSUE?

You HAVE no privacy. You haven't for years.

It's just now, we KNOW it, when before, we didn't.

[icymist]

6. My point is complicated.

The Church of the old South, The Southern Baptist have began to dominate our political system. This is complicated by Pentecostals headed by Pat Robertson. To think that these religion left over from the Old South are not influencing our political process today6 is defeatist.

PS. FISA is only a warnning, or symptom of what I see here.

[icymist]

4. My point. Indeed.

This man, Mr. G.W. Bush, is representing a section that never ended the American Civil War and, therefore has no obligations to the US Constitution nor it's elected officials. He views everything in the eyes of eminent domain, that includes the oilfields in Iraq. To help fuel this feeling of emanate aggression is the Religious Right's insistence that Armageddon begins in Persia, now Iran.

[BlooInBloo]

5. In the minds of the south....

... But then, who really cares what they think, anyway? We've already proven we can win elections DESPITE them. Fuck 'em.

[icymist]

7. I don't think that's going to work.

The Southern Baptists, Pentecostals, and supporters are now all over the US. They are a force to be reckoned with.

[BlooInBloo]

8. Not in numbers they aren't. They're regional freaks with a regional political party.

[icymist]

9. The main problem is that they are the old religion from the old South.

I also don't believe they're as fictionalized as believed. I grew up in NE Ohio and lived for ten years in Central Illinois. Both these places would jump at the chance to identify themselves as 'South'. Another point is to express how the South expresses themselves as 'Southern' not American.

[Benhurst]

12. I grew up in Central Illinois, and it was very much the "Land of Lincoln."

Jeff Davis was hardly popular there, and I never heard anyone express a desire to be Southern. If any thing, the South was looked down upon as a backward area of the country.

[icymist]

14. How long ago was that?

I spent ten years in Springfield, and I had the displeasure of working under a bakery supervisor that insisted he serve Passover sweet bread to Jews while wearing a swastika on his arm. Yeah, this was the supposed Land Of Lincolin, but the Southeren spirit was taking over.

[Benhurst]

17. Central Illinois historically has had a very large German-American population

While that community brought with it many progressive social ideas, anti-Semitism always lurked in the shadows. The bigotry you were exposed to was home-grown and has nothing to do with the South.

[icymist]

26. I just don't think so.

The way these people acted and expressed their opinions of others were just as my Southern relatives would in their blind bigotry. In that situation I refused to be part of their operation, so I kept moving West. Problem is, I found these same type of people out here in Washington State. My solution is silent toleration for me to deal with it even if it's caused by others ignorance.

[Benhurst]

27. I think you'll find members (dying out now) and descendants of

the German-American Bundt can give any Southern racist a run for his or her money. Be that as it may, hate is found all over the world. And it becomes truly frightening when it is in the ascendancy, as it is in the Middle East.

[icymist]

29. Agreed.

And right now, I believe G.W.B believes the Middle East is in the category of Eminent Domain as in the definition of the old American West.

[spindoctor]

10. What was the motivation behind the civil war?

Many people in the northern states will answer "slavery". A good southern man will say "free trade". The southern man is right of course because wars are not fought over moral issues (<irony>with the possible exception of bringing democracy to the Middle East</irony>).

Are we still fighting over free trade?

[icymist]

11. More than 'Free Trade'. I believe we are still fighting over interpretation

of the Bible. If you look at all the English wars between each other you will find a 'literal' or 'secular' interpretation of the Bible in the center of the argument.

[ms liberty]

13. Geroge Bush and Dick Cheney are NOT SOUTHERNERS, dammit!

George was born in Conneticut and both sides of his family are from the north, and Dick is from Wyoming. Neither of them are actual Southerners. George might have spent some of his life in the South, but that DOES NOT make him Southern. Being Southern doesn't "happen" to you when you move south. Being Southern happens to you when you are born to Southerners, in the South. When your family has lived in the South for almost 300 years, like mine.

[icymist]

15. I hate to correct you on this, but Dick Cheney is from Texas.

He only moved to Wyoming after accepting G.W.Bush's bid for vice president. G.W. is not originally from Texas, but Maine. This shows the extent that the Southern Religion has moved throughout our country,

[legaltender]

16. Actually, he only lived in Texas for about 5 years

He was born in Nebraska, moved to Wyoming when he was young, attended high school and college in Wyoming (after flunking out of Yale), and was a Congressman from Wyoming for many years. He only moved to Texas in 1995 after taking over Halliburton, and moved back to Wyoming in 2000 after accepting the VP offer.

[icymist]

20. Still, he's all about the West.

The great frontier for the South. I don't dismiss this.... the South really wanted the West to back up 'The Cause'. Through a few very shrewed military maneuvers by the North, this was never realized. Still, the South's religion did.

[Alexander]

19. Actually Cheney is from Lincoln, Nebraska and Wyoming.

Cheney grew up in Casper, Wyoming. He attended elementary, middle and high school there. His DUIs were both in Wyoming. He earned his BA from the University of Wyoming.

He may have moved to Texas in the 90s but that does not make him "from Texas".

And George W. was born in New Haven and attended Andover and Yale.

[icymist]

28. It makes him from Texas during the 2000 presidential ticket.

Which is why he moved residency to Wyoming, to keep two Texans from running on the same ticket. Remember that G.W. is not a true Texan either. This arrangement may have more in the planning of Big Oil than Southern Baptist or the old South. Nevertheless, both these guys have 'played' the South into voting for them, 'blind Faith' as if they were one of their own.

[Alexander]

30. He lived there briefly. But he's from Wyoming to begin with.

A federal judge dismissed a lawsuit against Bush & Cheney which alleged exactly the same thing you are saying - that Cheney is from Texas.

Cheney lived in Wyoming on Jerry Ford's staff. He represented Wyoming in Congress. He was living in Wyoming when he was Secretary of Defense.

Cheney also quit his Halliburton job when he became a candidate. He moved to Texas solely for that job. So why would he stick around Texas and not live at home (Wyoming) if his job doesn't require it?

:shrug:

[icymist]

32. Can we agree to say that G.W.B. and Cheney are manipulating the South?

This may very well be a more plausible explanation of why two people who are not originally from the South be claiming that heritage?

[NoPasaran]

21. Dick Cheney---NOT a Texan.

He was born in Nebraska. His family moved to Wyoming while he was growing up. He's a graduate of a Wyoming high school and has a BA and MA from the University of Wyoming. He represented Wyoming in Congress 1979-89.

[icymist]

23. At the time when Bush was running for the 2000 presidential bid....

Cheney moved to Wyoming so that no two candidates would appear on the same ticket from Texas.

[Alexander]

25. Just because he lived in Texas from 1995-2000 does not mean Cheney is a "Texan".

The dude is 66 years old.

For 5 years of his life he lived in Texas.

The rest of the 61 years were spent mostly in Wyoming.

Please explain how this makes Dick Cheney a "Texan".

[tabasco]

18. The American Revolution is still being fought.

We still have not achieved equality, freedom, or the promises of the Bill of Rights.

Republicans support a "unitary executive" aka a monarchy so we are still fighting the tories.

[icymist]

22. The Irony is that the 'South' has displaced itself from the Democrats

to the Republicans, starting in 1972 and finalizing this transformation in 1994. Complicated Democrats are those who still hold the Confederate Religion,: Johnson, Carter, and may I say, Clinton and Gore? These are religious adherents from the Old South and they have been discarded by the same. The only reason why, I see is political.

[Skidmore]

24. Exactly, and with a new and very mad King George and the Loyalists

all lined up against us.

[icymist]

31. Really, If you want to delve into far enough, the English Civil War is still being fought!

It's still the same two groups fighting here.... Religious wing nuts or Human Secularists. I'd say this was a oddity of English speaking peoples except for the little disturbance called The Spanish Inquisition.

[Turner Ashby]

34. I have to agree with Ms. Liberty

GW and Cheney are NOT Southerners. They are Faux Southerners, right down to GW's fake accent. And as wealthy as his family has been since about the 1700s, they would have had a town, a cemetery, a ferry, a mill named for them in a Southern state (if not a county). Something would have indicated Bush was a Southerner.

[icymist]

38. And the absence of these mean....

Welcome to the DU!

[Poppa]

33. Bullshit

This is absolute bullshit. It makes about as much sense in
understanding current U.S. history and/or politics as
astrology does to natural science. Fill in the blanks an all
of a sudden you've got another conspiracy theory. What a pile.

[icymist]

36. Oh my! Well thank you for your opinion.

There's not much I can add to your thoughtful dialog. Welcome to the DU!

[havocmom]

35. WHICH Civil War? Seems like a lot of them going on now

And my friends in the South have a different name for that war in the 1860s.

There are plenty of Yankees involved in the shit goin down now. That Connecticut Yankee comes to mind first and foremost. The pResident is NOT from Texas. The VP is NOT from Texas.

Carpet Baggers, not Texans. They (or, in bush's case, his family) came to a place for the financial opportunities. They weren't born there. They use and exploit various knee-jerk responses to make some people think they have a commonality, but they are NOT Texans

What we have is a Class War. It is not about geography. It's about power and a class that feels a sense of entitlement.

[icymist]

37. In a way, exactly, in another way, look at the religion.

The religion is the glue that binds them. The big question here is why the Southern Baptists took so readily to G.W.B. and Cheney and not Clinton and Gore who are also Southern Baptists?! Could this have been brought about from attacks from other self-proclaimed Southerners such as Pennsylvania born Newt Gingrich? And others like him?

[havocmom]

39. Religion? bush? cheney? They have NO religion but $$

Greedy people often have similar traits. Those also have nothing to do with geography.

Carter was a Southern Baptist until the church he knew and loved was taken over and exploited by greedy, power hungry men, and its mission hi-jacked (Do read Our Endangered Values by Carter, if you haven't already)

Any attempt to blame things on a geographic area and what we may think we know about a demographic is a sure fire way to LOSE friends and NOT influence people. It is like the erroneous and contrived blue state/red state shit. It divides us from natural allies and assures future failures.

Dr. Dean understands. He has some very sound strategies.

[icymist]

40. You've got a good grip except the way G.W.B and Cheney 'play' religion.

And it's the old religion from the old South they're playing. And those Americans, wherever they have moved to away from the Old South are buying. Why? Because it plays deep into their collective psychic. Imagine for once, if the Old South would rise again.... who would be shouting 'hoorays'!? This is the entire electorate that has currently been 'Bush-Wacked'! The Southern Religion is nothing but a tool to these people to manipulate elections.

[havocmom]

42. They play religion like they play geography. We should know better.

It isn't about geography. It's about lying and scheming, duping and exploiting for the sole purpose of gaining power for the reason of maintaining power.

bush cheney have also exploited working and rural populations in the north (where I live, for instance) by labeling Liberals as 'elitists'. Then, when we say things indicating we think this whole mess is because the South might still be pissed off, we play right into their hands.

[icymist]

45. Exactly! The whole thing goes as far back as the English Civil War!

These two sides, the religious purists and the secular humanists, have been at war now for almost four hundred years!

[Hippo_Tron]

41. Maybe, but I'd stick Indiana and the "heartland" in that south group as well

Because those states are just as red as the South, possibly more so.

[icymist]

43. Indeed. Most of Southern Illinois, Southern Indiana, and Southern Ohio

consider themselves to be Southern. Hell, If the South seceded again, they would take Maryland and New Hampshire along with them! My point, throughout this thread, is that it's not just the geographical South, but everywhere the religion of the Old South has spread is what's making the difference.

[Hippo_Tron]

46. New Hampshire is trending blue, though

And I'd say that Maryland was more southern at the time of the Civil War than it is now.

[icymist]

47. I know these things because I'm from the NE of Ohio!

I got married in Winchester Virginia, had to drive through Maryland many times. Our family came up from Virginia. I still have folks living in West Virginia, where my Great GrandMother lived on Elk Mountain, where there was fighting between the North and South, right there on their farm! I'm proud of my heritage and family. I still consider myself to be Southern, even though I've lived most of my life in the North.

[Drum]

44. I agree, but the regions are not the same.

Clash between belief-systems? You bet.