About democrats attacking democrats, a lesson from today

[The Straight Story]

I was at my father-in-law's house today and was in his office checking something on his computer for him.

There are a lot things hanging on the wall which I had never really bothered to read - two of those things were from the California Assembly congratulating him on being voted best labor leader. Very nice proclamations all done in color and fancy lettering. Also stuff from harvard and some fellow dems in the state recognizing his work for them.

A few minutes later we were in the backyard watching my daughter swim and he had gotten off the phone and seemed a tad rattled. He wants high speed internet (has dial up from the school board, his wife is president of - which is important to this story) and ended up selecting road runner - only $20/month.

The problem is, he wanted DSL via AT&T - because they have a union and he wants his money to support union shops whenever possible. AT&T though said that because the phone line was via the school board it would have to charge business class, $50/month.

He knows little about computers and such so I broke the good news to him - I noted he had a home phone line in his office as well, and no - you don't have to worry about being on the phone and computer at the same time like ya do with modems.

He was quite happy and called road runner and canceled the appt for hook up.

---Ok the point of this all today to me was somewhat simple.

Whenever able, he supports union shops (the man hasn't and never will go into a wal-mart). He might not be happy with companies like AT&T all the time, and if they screw up he will call em and bitch a blue streak to them. But in the end, he supports them. He won't be robbed blind by em (which is why he would not shell out the extra cash for something he won't use much anyway) but he will always, when the chips are down, do the right thing by the party/workers.

He likes Edwards, but will vote for whoever wins the primary.

In the end, we will do the right thing for the good of the party - when it is time to vote, we will vote to make progress even if it is baby steps over leaps and bounds.

Our VOTE is what we will give, as we will give our time.

But - we will also work within the party to correct the mistakes, and that means not always being nice in what we say. If you are working against core values, we will tell ya and bitch about it. We won't be silent as our investment is squandered.

We have a mission, and it won't happen if we sit around nodding our heads while a candidate plunders the future of our country for self interest or the interest of those who want to keep us down.

We are a party. An ideal. And we will weed out those who don't work for those ideals, and if you are in power and not performing we damn well BETTER bring it up or WE are then failing the goals we have of becoming a more progressive nation.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

1. K and R.

Believe in the good in people or the the bad.

Most believe in the good. MKJ

[Breeze54]

2. Great story! Especially the last three paragraphs!

"But - we will also work within the party to correct the mistakes, and that means not always being nice in what we say.
If you are working against core values, we will tell ya and bitch about it. We won't be silent as our investment is squandered.

We have a mission, and it won't happen if we sit around nodding our heads while a candidate plunders the future of our country
for self interest or the interest of those who want to keep us down.

We are a party. An ideal. And we will weed out those who don't work for those ideals, and if you are in power and not performing
we damn well BETTER bring it up or WE are then failing the goals we have of becoming a more progressive nation."

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Thanks for writing it and sharing it with us!

:kick: & Recommended

[mzmolly]

3. One small clarification.

In the end, we will do the right thing for the good of the party

I would say ...

In the end, we will do the right thing for the good of the country, and that means we'll vote Democratic. ;)

I hear to many people here suggest that we should not vote for Democrats because they equal Republicans. I just don't get that, especially now. I would THINK Bush proved that talking point wrong all on his own?

Nice thread. :hi:

Peace

[The Straight Story]

4. I think the argument can be made, that on SOME issues some candidates are the same

I read the senate web pages on a regular basis and find day to day we are much different than the pugs, on most issues.

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

(you select a Senator there and takes you to their page with news releases, statements, etc).

[mzmolly]

6. Indeed there are some similarities on some candidates.

But overall, many more differences. I tend to look at votesmart and their advocacy group ratings to get an overall feel. It's amazing how liberal Lieberman looks when we contrast his record to that of Republicans.

:hi:

[Breeze54]

9. What was the date on that questionaire? He votes against the Dems a lot,

therefore, he is not a Dem but a DINO and many would argue that he is, in fact, a repuke.

[mzmolly]

16. It's a current analysis.

http://votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=53278

Look at his ratings on choice, civil rights, and those by conservative groups. I'd like to see any Republican with a record like Joe Lieberman. I'm not defending him or not, I'm giving some perspective to the false claims that Democrats = Republicans and using Lieberman as an example.

[Breeze54]

19. Those are ratings, not answers! He has repeatedly refused to respond to NPAT !!

Senator Joseph I. Lieberman REPEATEDLY REFUSED TO PROVIDE ANY RESPONSES TO CITIZENS
ON ISSUES THROUGH THE 2006 NATIONAL POLITICAL AWARENESS TEST WHEN ASKED TO DO SO BY
Key national leaders of both major parties including:

http://votesmart.org/npat.php?can_id=53278

What is the NPAT?

The National Political Awareness Test is a key component of Project Vote Smart's Voter Self-Defense system.
Major leaders of the media, major parties and Project Vote Smart repetitiously ask candidates one central question:
"Are you willing to tell citizens your positions on the issues you will most likely face on their behalf?"
The NPAT is administered to all candidates for presidential, congressional, gubernatorial, and state legislative offices.

[mzmolly]

28. I don't care

if he responded to NPAT or not, his voting record is more telling.

[Breeze54]

29. I like to know what a nominee thinks about MY issues

BEFORE I vote for them, but that's just me.

[mzmolly]

30. I would think that one could surmise what a person "thinks" based upon his/her voting record.

However, my post was not a plea to vote for Lieberman, it was a suggestion that we can get a feel for a candidate based upon how that candidate votes. And, we can get an overall feel for the differences between the two major parties by looking at the voting record of a so called "DLC Democrat" and contrasting his record to that of Republicans.

"The differences make a difference in the lives of ordinary Americans." ~ Paul Wellstone

[Greyhound]

15. Perfect example of why it is so important to view these rating services

very critically. Dianne Feinstein is an excellent example of how a clever pol can vote the "right way" and get a very good rating from them, while voting against her constituents and her professed principles when it matters.

[mzmolly]

17. It's not about polls.

http://votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=53278

What we need to view critically is the claim that Democrats = Republicans.

[Greyhound]

31. I believe the formula is Democrats ~ Republiks = Ruling Class. n/t

[mzmolly]

32. You do have a Democrat in your sigline, and I have my favorite Democrat pictured below.

Democrats = opportunity for all, Republicans = opportunity for the have mores.

[blm]

5. Exactly - and those of us from the anti-corruption, open government

wing of the Democratic party have endured far too much protection of the Bushes and their cronies and their secrecy and privilege from too many of our own Dems to stay silent about it.

We have already SEEN what happens when accountability for massive and serious govt. corruption is bypassed and that is a HELLUVA lot more harmful to our party, this country and the world than a heated statement on an internet forum thread.

Either truth matters or it doesn't. Who wants to side with secrecy and privilege over truth?
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

[mzmolly]

7. "Who wants to side with secrecy and privilege over truth?"

Well said. :hi:

[countmyvote4real]

8. AT&T was a bad choice.

I respect your ideals and labor union support, but AT&T was and is complicit with the unwarranted spying on US citizens. When they attempted to cover their ass with a new privacy policy after their voluntary involvement with the * regime was exposed, I severed my previous lifetime connection with that company.

The severance process involved more than a couple customer service calls that were obviously off-shored to India. I rather doubt those workers have an organized union there that is recognized by AT&T. Their (AT&T) disdain for their union contracts is probably what drove them there in the first place. I’m sure AT&T retains some union contracts. It’s not like someone from India can make an on premises house call to fix a problem; but if that were possible it would be “buh bye” to that union.

Of course now that both Democratic and Republican lawmakers have signed off on the latest FISA bill, AT&T (or any company) has their ass covered retroactively. Not exactly lobbyist dollars or our lawmakers working for us, or our Constitution.

I can’t say that I am thrilled to know that you will hold your nose and vote for any Democrat. (Frankly, it doesn't sound like you smell anything wrong here except the shrillness of any discord or dissent.) My wish is that you will be more informed about your choices and sometimes find more progressive choices beyond the menu that is served to us from the Democratic Party and the media when those incumbents, nominees and candidates don’t truly represent your values.

Apple iPhone or not, AT&T is forever dead to me. And Apple (another life long favorite) is bruised in the process. So, you see I have my own dilemma here.

Finally, I really do appreciate your ideals. I hope that we can all be smart about how we apply them.

[Breeze54]

10. AT&T is bad but there's other companies that are just as bad!

I don't trust any of them.

[The Straight Story]

12. I get what you are saying - but have to ask, do you? :)

And I mean that in a friendly way, no flames here.

You and my FIL are both standing up for your principles, and in this case they conflict.

He is seeing how doing business with labor union companies helps to strengthen workers (his focus) and you are seeing that doing business with AT&T is weakening things you focus on.

Which brings us down to what we have that is less gray - a two party system. Not to mention that time warner and road runner have faults of their own, and those were his two choices here.

He chose, imho, the lesser of two evils because at least one of them was progressive in an area he has had a lot of focus on in his life. He is more focused on the workers than the evils the company has done (and I am no personal fan of AT&T)

For me - I have two main choices in politics, empower my party even when it means voting for someone I don't like, or empower and entire party that is totally against my values by voting on principle.

Hillary is my last choice candidate, I just don't like her (but to be fair, she has done things I have liked) - I would campaign and vote for her if she won the nomination because she is more liberal than any candidate on the right will ever be. Yeah, she pisses me off at times and I think she is a corp hack - but I would rather have a corp hack on the left than one on the right, because some issues (instead of all) would move forward.

Dennis is my candidate of choice, but our party is bigger than one candidate. A dem majority in congress and a dem president would at least help undo some of this damage we have seen across the board - and that to me is progress. Having any R in high office, or in a majority in congress, would hinder growth completely.

And that comes back to AT&T - I can support a competitor who has no union or benefits, or I can support one that does. They all suck to me in many ways, but I will take the one that gives me at least something back as opposed to the one that wants to take even more and give nothing back.

Damned sad to be sure - which is why I think so many of us are pissed off and upset right now.

[countmyvote4real]

14. If it's a screw x for y equation for you and FIL...

How do the rest of us get to be y in your world? I'm not judging. I'm just asking, I truly want to know how you balance your economics vs your stated values?

[The Straight Story]

23. When it comes to some things it is based off your

passion and personal investment to the cause. He has a lot more of his life personally invested in making things better for workers via unions, so he looks at that first.

And to me that is the point about party - his key words are union labor, ours is democratic party (you can have more than one of course) and when things conflict you resolve based on knowledge and experience. You will never make the right choice to some people of course :)

Furthermore, there is a lot debate and infighting within union orgs - which helps them to hammer out the issues, put the right people in power, and forge ahead on the core principles. How we make it all work is what needs to be discussed and debated. We don't need to bitch as much about the repubs because they are not the leaders we elected and don't represent our values (fighting them of course is another matter, but discussing how upset we are with them and writing them, etc won't be as productive as using our energy internally to make ours a better party).

--The short answer to what you asked:
You are the Y in someone's world, and the X in someone else's even though we are all part of the same alphabet :)

[Selatius]

13. Unfortunately, for many of us, we're screwed. You see, they bought out BellSouth and Cingular

I live in Mississippi, and when you want a land phone line, you have to deal with BellSouth, and now they're apart of AT&T. If your cellphone is on Cingular, you're now under the AT&T umbrella now. Ma Bell is back.

[Greylyn58]

27. I'm in the same boat

For a few years I had to have AT&T as my long distance carrier since BellSouth didn't have long distance. I really didn't make any long distance calls, but felt I needed a carrier for the times I did. I finally got sick of all the month fees they tacked on each month. I wasn't making any long distance calls, yet their part of my phone bill climbed to around $18., all fees they added each month. I was ridiculous.

Thankfully BellSouth finally got there own long distance service and I kicked AT&T as soon as possible.

Now I have to deal with them after being free for 4 years. I'm waiting for my bills to start climbing and the additional fees to start again. I am not a happy camper!!

[burrowowl]

11. Good on your Father-in-Law!

Hope you are a good Son-in-Law and it looks like you are!

[coco77]

18. what else can be used to go on the internet and talk on the ...

phone at the same time. Is there a problem with AOL.

[Breeze54]

22. Is that a question?

:shrug: "Is there a problem with AOL."

If it is a question, than YES! AOL is a virus!!
It sucks! It's moderated by RW nuts (the chatrooms)
and it sucks up memory on your computer!

http://ebtx.com/business/aolsucks.htm">Why AOL Sucks

http://www.heferito.com/aohell.asp">AO-Hell How to cancel your AOL account (This really works!)

[EFerrari]

20. We're supposed to do nuance. So, there's discussion,

disagreement, argument, and attack. They aren't all the same thing, are they?

Great story. :)

[Solon]

21. You bring up a piss poor example, I'll tell you that much...

I mean, seriously, AT&T? The company that illegally cooperated with the NSA in spying on Americans? The same company that is trying to remake its monopoly all over again? The same company that has no problems outsourcing as many call centers as possible, decreasing union power in the process? The same company that uses deceptive practices on its own customers? That AT&T? What the fuck?

[The Straight Story]

25. Ummm, it might be an example but that it what it was about

did ya want me to make up the details?

I don't much like AT&T - but you try being the head of a labor council and explain to your members why you, in your own home, chose a non-union company :)

[Irishonly]

24. In the end

I think we will all vote for the democratic candidate. I don't like to see all of the fighting that I have seen lately but I also have no doubt the majority will rally around the democratic nominee. Any of them are light years better than any rethugicon running.

[NotGivingUp]

26. "If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all. "

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction, is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all. "

- Thomas Jefferson

[DU GrovelBot]

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[MODemocrat]

34. He definitely speaks for me

What a smart man; I could have talked all day and not have made a point that well!
:toast: :thumbsup:

Thank you so much for this uplifting post.