After 3½ years in a solitary cell I could make you admit anything* and love me too.

[Poll_Blind]

(* Even the stuff you haven't done!)

  After reading the DemocracyNOW! transcript with the psychologist who interviewed Jose Padilla I'm certain that in his case the government did to him things quite well beyond the orbit of what is described happening to Winston Smith's character in 1984. Simply put, they have outdone Orwell's imagination when it comes to isolating, decimating and rebuilding the mind of a suspected enemy of the state.

  And in the rebuilding they have made him love the forces which destroyed his mind because, simply, there is nothing left of his personality which has not been first assaulted then over time re-molded.

  I think that it is important to recognize that comparisons of the Boosh administration, in this matter, to Hiter or Orwell's Big Brother are not only appropriate but tame: There are nolonger cultural or literary metaphors available in comparison.

  If you have not read the transcript, it's worth your time.

  Some questions:

:redbox: Can we expect that this treatment has been or will be applied to other American citizens?

:redbox: Can we expect that this treatment has been and is being refined for future application?

:redbox: If a citizen already disgruntled with the government, and possibly hostile against it, can be made to love the government through extreme mental deprivation, psychological punishment and physical torture, can the government claim to have "rehabilitated" or destroyed the citizen's unique identity as a human being?

:redbox: Is it feasable that these techniques will be applied in lesser forms to larger groups of people, or have already been applied via the mass media?

:redbox: Is it possible that otherwise "normal" individuals or citizens can be molded into whatever the state desires via this process, including performing criminal acts, civil or political- even assassination?

:redbox: Will these conditioning methods ever be applied on a grander scale, for lesser offenses?

:redbox: Given the cost of long-term incarceration, will these methods ever compete with the penal system as a "quick" way to "rebuild" a citizen?

:redbox: Is conditioning of this nature ever appropriate or justified in the ordinary (or even extra-ordinary) machinations of a free and Democratic government, of the people, by the people and for the people?

PB

[ThomCat]

1. This will not be the last time this is done to a US citizen.

It probably isn't the only time it has happened, or is happening. It will only get worse unless we can dig neo-con corruption out of our government at all levels.
x(

[Poll_Blind]

2. Remember when the definition of terrorism was broadened greatly to include...

..., among other things, economic terrorism (in the form of sit-ins or other public disturbances such as those used in the 1960's to bring attention to popular disfavor with the Vietnam war, or the designation of software piracy as economic terrorism? I am concerned about a future, maybe one not too far away, in which conditioning "treatments" of this nature are applied more broadly based on these redefinitions of "terrorism" by the Federal government.

  And to top it off, on the day when the U.S. recognizes that thousands of U.S. citizens are being so "reconditioned" how many of those will be disposed of by low-bid contractors working for the government?

  It breaths fresh life into the concept of an oubliette.

PB

[TahitiNut]

3. Yes. It's even likely that, by such treatment, one could make a person another guard/interrogator.

We are far more adaptive and malleable than we want to believe.

[Hydra]

4. I'm familiar with this stuff, due to research on MK Ultra and resulting programs

so lets take a crack at your questions:

:redbox: Can we expect that this treatment has been or will be applied to other American citizens?

Has been for more than 30 years. Is being used now on people we don't know about. Will certainly be used in the future.

:redbox: Can we expect that this treatment has been and is being refined for future application?

Was already refined by the 80's. It's super refined now.

:redbox: If a citizen already disgruntled with the government, and possibly hostile against it, can be made to love the government through extreme mental deprivation, psychological punishment and physical torture, can the government claim to have "rehabilitated" or destroyed the citizen's unique identity as a human being?

Sure. It's called personality fragmentation, or more properly, "Disassociative Identity Disorder"(DID). You hurt someone enough that their personality submerges, afraid to come back. A new personality surfaces that is basically a blank slate. They "teach" that personality what they want done.

:redbox: Is it feasible that these techniques will be applied in lesser forms to larger groups of people, or have already been applied via the mass media?

Prisons work fine for this purpose. The same principles could be used on entire cities. Using the media, they simply convince you to believe something that isn't true. If you accept something as true, then for all intents and purposes, it is. The torture is for the more stubborn among us.

:redbox: Is it possible that otherwise "normal" individuals or citizens can be molded into whatever the state desires via this process, including performing criminal acts, civil or political- even assassination?

No problems there. See above with the DID thing. The new persona has no conscience, so no problem getting the tortured person do murder people.

:redbox: Will these conditioning methods ever be applied on a grander scale, for lesser offenses?

They'll be applied for "suspicion of subversion" or anything else they want to declare is "against the will of the state"

:redbox: Given the cost of long-term incarceration, will these methods ever compete with the penal system as a "quick" way to "rebuild" a citizen?

It's not quick, but it's based on the Penal system(or the penal system is based on them). I suspect they will go hand in hand.

:redbox: Is conditioning of this nature ever appropriate or justified in the ordinary (or even extra-ordinary) machinations of a free and Democratic government, of the people, by the people and for the people?

Of course not. You're destroying the other person. You may as well put a bullet in his head and put someone else in his place, and call him "Bob."

"Reeducation" is perhaps the most perverse thing we do as a species. The fact that we do it at all puts to lie the idea that we are more than animals.

[Poll_Blind]

7. Thanks for those points, Hydra, I agree heartily. I had read some....

...about the MK Ultra experiments and been disgusted to the point of actually becoming physically ill after learning what we did. I am very concerned that once a precedent like this has been set, it requires twice (or more) as much action on the part of citizens and legislators to stop it.

  "Beyond the pale.

PB

[bobthedrummer]

11. See post 9 and "imagine" primates other than monkeys being "studied"...

[Hydra]

13. It makes me ill as well

if you dig deep enough, it puts to lie everything you've ever been taught about America.

My personal favorite brainwashed response: "It's just torture! He's a terrorist, for godsakes! He deserves to be hurt a little"

Well, I guess some of those same people will find out what it's like firsthand- in dictatorships, people get randomly pulled off the streets and tortured as a "random sampling" of what might be going on.

:puke:

[bobthedrummer]

16. Historically there are round-up lists in dictatorships

and there were death squads with supporting networks here in our country that have been consolidated and privatized by this criminal administration.

Here is a recent thread (started by H2O Man) that discussed some of that history that you and I also participated in.

"The Huston Plan" (started 7-26-2007)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1442997

[Hydra]

17. That was before my time

But I know what you mean. On the other hand, as people know they are being watched, the Gov't gets paranoid and starts randomly interrogating people as well as having lists. Stalin pulled the ultimate by using the lists, plus add-ons for his work camps.

The random thing should scare people more than anything. If you're an anarchist, you should reasonably think that the Gov't is out to get you. On the other hand, the average work-a-day joe probably can't conceive that he'll be picked up and waterboarded.

Too bad he would be dead wrong.

[Poll_Blind]

18. Or a Behavior Detaction Officer (BDO) thinks your expressions are...

...suspect: New airport agents check for danger in fliers' facial expressions.

  !

PB

[Hydra]

20. Thought police

you should read what was posted about that earlier today

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1606356

Some of us were speculating that the thought police would be using their positions to blackmail people into sex on threat of arrest for "wrong expression on face"

[Poll_Blind]

24. I actually found a "cool" little article on Wiki about it, plus the TEST!

Microexpression Wiki

Facial Expressions Test

  I'm not 100% sure if these methods are applicable- there seems to be a heck of a lot of "interpretation". I'm not sure if the training provided would be adequate. After all, most of these people who are going to be performing the examinations are probably going to be paid minimum wage.

  Scarier thought, eh?

PB

[bobthedrummer]

25. Whatever it's called it's right up there with phrenology and brain-weighing, lol

then again consider this endorsement from Cheryl Welsh's Mind Justice website (Cheryl Welsh is a UN recognized "non-lethal" expert and an activist against technologies that target the human central nervous system)

"Letter from Dr. Eldon A. Byrd"

http://www.mindjustice.org/1-02-1.htm

[BlooInBloo]

5. Shit that's the hard way - if love is all you want, a nice surf & turf meal is all I'd need.

[Spinzonner]

6. If it's Friday

It must be Stockholm

[Poll_Blind]

8. I was actually kind of surprised that the psychologist DIDN'T include...

...Stockholm Syndrome in their diagnosis. They even mentioned that they considered it, so completely "rebuilt" was Padilla.

PB

[bobthedrummer]

9. It's time for transparency-a lot of this was developed in Wisconsin

by some distinguished names in several fields that were all at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and all associated with black operations.

"Wisconsin and some black operations" (posted 7-28-2007)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=186x21683#21699

[Poll_Blind]

14. I had no idea- that is CHILLING and weird. n/t

PB

[bobthedrummer]

19. Fwiw, I'm a UW System alumnus.

When I talk about criminal domestic black operations I speak from personal experiences that began 38 years ago in Milwaukee, and have continued.

It's easy to know where to look for answers to unanswered/ridiculed questions after such experiences and also a positive motivation to NGU.

[Hydra]

22. Thanks for the extra info

I'll be reading it later. The focus of my research was Cameron and the other psychiatrists that were certain that they could rebuild a person from the bottom up, and the people that were trying to create an infallible truth drug. After the supposed end of MK Ultra, the path becomes muddy and it's getting into the realm of speculation, but all of it is based on proven science- mostly animal based behavior.

[bobthedrummer]

23. PM me some time, I mean Louis Jolyon West and Frank Olson and Harry Harlow and Abraham Maslow

and many others all were at Madison, and much of the neuroscience/behavioral field went black here in Wisconsin.

[no_hypocrisy]

10. As Winston Smith was wont to say at the end of "1984":

I LOVE YOU, BIG BROTHER!!

[TechBear_Seattle]

12. But sticking your face into a cage full of hungry rats is SO much faster!

It is very disturbing that the US government is using tactics lifted from "Nineteen Eighty Four."

[Poll_Blind]

15. Kick for one more rec.- just want to get the questions and the transcript out there! n/t

PB

[bobthedrummer]

21. and another kick...

[Poll_Blind]

26. Thanks! n/t

PB

[bobthedrummer]

27. Google EA 1729 ,kick

on edit:need a space between the prefix EA