Combat Is No Place For Women -

[WillyT]

Kathryn Jean Lopez: Combat is no place for women
By Kathryn Jean Lopez -
Published 12:00 am PDT Friday, August 17, 2007

<snip>

During a recent Democratic debate, both Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama indicated that all female U.S. citizens should register for the Selective Service. Neither candidate was as ridiculous as former Alaska Sen. Mike Gravel, who said, when it comes to men and women being drafted, "What's the difference?" But the radical and dangerous implications of the front-runners' policies are not that far from Gravel's query.

The attitude the Democrats have on this issue has already caused harm to the military. Elaine Donnelly, president of the Center for Military Readiness, has been watching the feminization of military-personnel policy for decades. In an article for the Duke Journal of Gender Law & Policy, she explains that "gender-integrated basic training is based on the unrealistic assumption that men and women are interchangeable in all military roles. The concept tries to circumvent or disguise physical differences with gender-normed training standards that reward equal effort rather than equal results."

Yes, there are differences between genders, Mr. Gravel. According to one of Donnelly's many examples of the different scoring of supposed equals: The Navy has male trainees do a minimum of 42 push-ups for a minimum score; women must do 17. Men (ages 20 to 24) must swim 500 yards in 12 minutes, 15 seconds; women (ages 20 to 24) get 14 minutes to accomplish the same.

The radicalism of the Democrats' desire to have women in the military can be seen with a look to the legal system. In 1981, the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the male-only requirement for Selective Service registration, reasoning that the whole point "was to prepare for a draft of combat troops."

Women are currently banned from combat. If we needed to draft Americans, would Clinton require women to sign up for the Selective Service in preparation for mandatory combat duty? Would you conscript America's daughters? That's the sad direction we've been heading in.

More: http://www.sacbee.com/110/story/329692.html

Here's a discussion the nation has never truly had...

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Been there done that lady

and I didn't even break a nail... how bout that?

Oh and lead, when it flies, does not make any difference either

Why is it that OTHER countries can accept women in even subs, and our provincial idiots would love to get us barefoot, pregnant and not voting if possible?

[lastliberalintexas]

21. Because that kind of experience can be liberating for women

Not only military experience, but learning basic shop and auto mechanic skills for which we are traditionally told to rely on men. Once a woman learns she can live independently, gains self-confidence from such experience, etc., she is less likely to conform to the vapid role of brainless unquestioning housewife/mother which the powers that be want us to fill.



And just so I'm clear, I am not saying that all housewives are vapid, brainless and unquestioning. I am saying that is how certain people would LIKE women to behave.

[Spinzonner]

2. Combat is no place for human beings

and a great deal of military roles involve skills unrelated to (purely) physical skills.

Establish realistic requirements for each position and make everyone satisfy them.

Of course, with the way the Bush Admin is exploiting our military and overworking it, that's easy to say.

[NancyBreen]

13. I agree - combat is no place for human beings nt

[liberal N proud]

14. Thank you!

Best come back yet.

[WillyT]

3. The Funny\Un-Funny Reality Is...

That American women have ALWAYS been in the front lines of America's conflicts.

:shrug:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

4. The U.S. has the luxury of being paternalistic about women in combat

Ask the women in war-torn countries all over the world about that. Ask the women in Serbia and Bosnia about their "non-combatant" lives during that conflict. Ask the women of Darfur. Ask the women of Israel or Lebanon. Ask the women of Central America. Ask Native American women about what their foremothers experienced. Women have been in combat for thousands of years. Yes, even taking up arms to defend their lives and families. We haven't had a major conflict on this soil since the Civil War so we are fortunate enough to be able to have a 'debate' about whether or not women belong in combat. We think we are protecting women here by keeping them out of combat training. We're lucky that way. So far.

[Captain Hilts]

10. That's exactly right. It's a luxury: women, rich kids, etc. nt

[1monster]

5. Nor for men, or children of either sex.

[WillyT]

6. You Guys Realize Of Course, That The Implication Is That It Is OK For Men

:shrug:

[Selatius]

7. Let each woman decide for herself if she wants to be on the battlefield.

I oppose the draft, but if there is one, I don't see why woman can't also serve auxiliary roles in times of war if they are not physically fit to serve as front-line soldiers. If there be a draft, the only fair one would be blind to class, race, and gender.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. No draft .

Unless the Visigoths are at our borders, the answer is: no draft, no way, for no one. If there is a REAL military crisis requiring the defense of our borders, then of course you draft everyone available who can help. The question of gender, in a true crisis, would be obviously irrelevant. The fact that this is even debated indicates how repulsive the concept of conscription for foreign military adventures is.

[otherlander]

27. Exactly.

As against the draft as I am, I would still say that any draft should ignore gender.

And if it ever actually came to that, I would go to jail for refusing to kill people. It would be like the opposite of America's Most Wanted.

[Captain Hilts]

9. Guess that means we're exempting over half of medical students from the draft! nt

[pitohui]

11. do you have to do even one pushup to fire an automatic weapon?

hello, we live in the 21st c. not the 14th, and we have technology

i don't think women should be drafted, nor do i think men should be drafted either

let's be real, fat out of shape guys in their 50s are earning $100K-plus a year in iraq as contractors, don't crap on women's chance at the same opportunities

this ain't about the draft which may or may not happen

this is as usual about making sure women can't compete for high paying opportunities that require a history

[Cha]

45. That's what I was thinking..not

to mention GI Jane. I'm thinking women can learn to fire weapons just as rapidly as men.

EDWIN STARR lyrics - "War"
www.OldieLyrics.com
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again, y'all

War, huh, good God
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

Ohhh, war, I despise
Because it means destruction
Of innocent lives

War means tears
To thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
And lose their lives

I said, war, huh
Good God, y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War, whoa, Lord
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

War, it ain't nothing
But a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
Ooooh, war
It's an enemy to all mankind
The point of war blows my mind
War has caused unrest
Within the younger generation
Induction then destruction
Who wants to die
Aaaaah, war-huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it, say it, say it
War, huh
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again y'all
War, huh, good God
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War, it's got one friend
That's the undertaker
Ooooh, war, has shattered
Many a young mans dreams
Made him disabled, bitter and mean
Life is much to short and precious
To spend fighting wars these days
War can't give life
It can only take it away

Ooooh, war, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War, whoa, Lord
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
Peace, love and understanding
Tell me, is there no place for them today
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way

Ooooooh, war, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
You tell me
Say it, say it, say it, say it

War, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Stand up and shout it
Nothing

The only thing war is for is the money machine for the military complex..people like rummy and the chickenshithawks like cheeeeeney..assholes like that.

[stanwyck]

12. Not sure that how many pushups someone does

qualifies that person as the best soldier in today's warfare. By the way, my son is a Marine and the female Marines, though trained separately from the men during boot camp, are required to complete all of the same physical requirements.
Perhaps an understanding of exactly what is required, physically, on a daily basis for our combat troops might be a good idea. The assumption that female soldiers aren't qualified for combat needs to be based on facts. Not emotion.
Is the different scoring for males and females really necessary? When women weight train, they build muscle that closes the gap. True, women do not build as much muscle as men, but there are many women who are able to complete the men's requirements.
I think it's time to revisit this discussion without the haze of gender bias.

[frogcycle]

17. whole argument is flawed

swimming speed or number of pushups does not indicate how well you can perform military duties, combat or otherwise. It is an indicator of overall physical condition, helps evaluate whether the person is "in shape."

Generally raw strength is going to be a lot less important than endurance and "quickness". The ability to stay sharp, react quickly under duress, that sort of thing. A little guy might struggle to the the pushups but be sharp as a tack. Some big muscular women might be strong enough to bench press more than me, but be a slug in combat.

For a given role, there will be extra qualifications, and if a particular woman can't carry a heavy platoon automatic weapon for a long time, then don't give her that job. Maybe several men in the platoon aren't right for it either. Being a sniper calls for special skills; not many can do it. Eliminating half the population from consideration is just plain stupid.

[stanwyck]

34. Well said!

My son, a sniper during his first two tours to Iraq, is an example of your point. He grew up in a household without guns. He was worried about going to Parris Island because of his unfamiliarity with firearms. Turns out, he's an excellent marksman.

[Hekate]

15. Combat's no place for human beings...

...at all. The whole thing is nuts. :cry:

Hekate

[needledriver]

16. Why does draft mean combat?

I don't understand.

Why does the prospect of drafting women automatically assume that they will be given combat assignments? Although the old "tooth to tail" analogy of the ratio of combat to support troops breaks down in a situation like Iraq, where even rear echelon troops can be exposed to hostilities, there are still a large majority of non-combat specific duties that can be filled by drafted women.

If you assume that a draft is necessary (and I'm not arguing that it is), why isn't it reasonable to draft women as well?

[RB TexLa]

18. Gender should be meaningless in it

[BlackVelvet04]

19. Men are expendable and women aren't????

That's the message I get when someone says combat is no place for a woman.

[eridani]

40. In the old days, men actually were more expendable

In small clan or tribal groups, if 90% of the men were killed, the group would survive. If 90% of the women were killed, they'd die out. In a high-tech world with 6 billion people in it, that just doesn't matter anymore.

[Breeze54]

20. Many "combat' situations now require button pushing skills...

not just physical endurance. There are many women in the military, as you know.

They've been there for a very long time, but they don't get the same pay.

That is the issue, Imho, and this has been discussed many times before.

I remember this conversation from the '70's, when I wanted to join the Marines

at age 18, on the 'Buddy System', and my Dad and my brothers freaked out and got angry!!

My Dad refused to sign permission for me! At that time, a woman needed her parents

signature, if she was under 21. My older brother was 'in my face' that I would even

considerate it. But not for the reasons you think. He said I'd be known as a whore.

[AnnieBW]

22. An IED Doesn't Care

Whether a male or female is driving a truck or Humvee. It's gonna blow up just the same. Women in support roles are just as vulnerable as men. Women are critical in this war because of the cultural restrictions on Moslem women. The women go on a raid along with the men, so that they can question and search the women of the household without pissing off the men. It's also showing Moslem women that women can be strong and don't have to be subservient to men.

[karlrschneider]

23. That reminded me of an incident from almost 30 years ago: I loaded up 5 people

into the plane in Muskogee, OK (where I was chief pilot for Coburn Industries...yes, the same Coburn as our current Senator) who were from Israel and wanted to see a -large- lens manufacturing laboratory in Dallas. One of my passengers was a middle-aged lady who lived in a Kibbutz. Just after taking off as I retracted the landing gear, there was a 'hugh' noise from underneath and I got an 'unsafe' gear indication. Obviously something had broken so I moved everyone to the back of the plane and came back to land, shutting down the engines just before touchdown so as not to wreck the props and engines. Luckily, the nose gear which wasn't really 'up' or 'down' didn't collapse and no additional damage was done.

As we got off the plane, I said to the lady, "I hope that didn't frighten you"...she replied, laughing, "I was in the Army, I was in gunfights with our enemies!"

I'm not taking any political position from this little story, just observing that women aren't all (and don't have to be) cookie-baking shrinking violets.

And that's all I have to say about that. :D

[BamaGirl]

24. Oh puleaze

First, there are many MOS's with women in them that see combat but aren't 'combat' MOS. This is an open secret in the Army and has been for years.

Second, I was an Army MP. One of those combat-non-combat-Army Mos's. I was going to Bosnia when I turned up pregnant. We'd been trying to get pregnant for a couple of years so we didn't feel bad that. I have two girls and one boy. I expect them all to do the same shit.

Third, I could out push almost every guy in my company. Sixty+ GOOD Army push ups. Women aren't weaker. Women have been CONVINCED they are ALWAYS weaker. So not true. Plus, I can out shoot everyone I know. :P

[Breeze54]

28. WOOT!!

:yourock:

:D

[TahitiNut]

32. Ubetcha. I never saw a job in Nam a woman couldn't do.

This is just more of the ol' "keep 'em in the kitchen where they belong" bullshit, imho. It appalls me to find (purported) 'progressives' buying into that crap.

[557188]

25. A woman not wanting to go to combat

BIG SURPRISE! I don't think anyone would want to go into combat for no reason.

However, sex is no reason to discriminate in a modern world. This person wants to be a 2nd class citizen and thus lost all credibility to begin with.

[alarimer]

26. I was having this very same discussion yesterday in fact

I also feel that if there is a draft, it has to apply equally to women as well as men. I was talking to a young woman who apparently agreed with this writer. She actually said that women shouldn't serve because they menstruate. What that has to do with shooting a gun, I have no idea. Most women I know have given up using that as an excuse for anything long ago.

But people in the military are sorted according to abilities and skills, just like everybody else. Some are cooks, some run computers, etc. So there is always a place for both women and men in the military, draft or no draft. Ask Tammy Duckworth, who was gravely injured by a IED while serving is an allegedly "non-combat" role. Or ask any of the hundreds of women who have been injured.

[rockymountaindem]

31. Tell her to read about Ludmila Pavlichenko

Soviet WWII sniper. Hundreds of confirmed kills. Proud owner of a fully functioning set of female organs.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

29. That depends on the woman.

http://pratt.edu/~rsilva/witches.htm

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

30. It's all semantics at this point

Women are out there in the line of fire as much as the men. It's the "don't ask, don't tell" of this decade.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[RiDuvessa]

35. I also believe women should register for the selective service.

I think that most military roles can be filled by women equally as well as men. As long as a women can fufill all the requirements, she should be allowed to serve.

I believe that as women strive towards equal rights with men they should be equal for the bad stuff as well as the good stuff. If we say that we are equal, then we are also equally responsible to register with the selective service.

[hedgehog]

36. It's not the enemy troops that are the problem, but all too often, the

males of our own armed forces. Until the military can guarantee that rape by our own is not happening, discussion of combat duty is silly.

[MindPilot]

37. Women aren't the only victims

Incidents of male-on-male rape in the military according to some stats I saw several years ago may exceed that in prison.

[Katherine Brengle]

46. Ah,

it's "what about teh menz!!111" time.

Male perpetrated rape against women is one the most prevalent tactics used in warfare all over the world and has been all throughout recorded history.

Also, male perpetrated rape against men, though less common, is part of the same continuum.

[MindPilot]

58. You really are showing your true colors now.

A feminist minimizing rape. Because it's just not as bad when it happens to a man.

[Katherine Brengle]

39. Rape is the fault of the perpetrator -- and someone who is going to rape

will do it whether his victim is a fellow soldier or any other woman.

[Katherine Brengle]

38. I'm so sick of this shit.

Guess what? A woman who trains seriously and wants fight can do it just as well as anyone else.

Fuck this shit.

[GreenTea]

41. If there is a draft...IT SHOULD BE FOR BOTH MEN & WOMEN....No, ifs ands or buts.

If you believe in the draft both genders should qualify & serve. Don't lay that sexist shit on me! (reverse sexism)!

I personally don't want to see a draft....Unless, I absolutely felt a draft would bring tens of millions of boys & girls - Woman & men into the streets, protesting the war/occupation and the draft itself.

[HuffleClaw]

48. damn straight

though if they are so foolish to actually try it, they'll instead insert a bushel basket of 'exemptions' for THEIR precious kids.

[Solly Mack]

42. piffle

[Name removed]

43. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[porphyrian]

44. Women fighters in other countries seem to kill just fine.

And, as far as I know, our women in law enforcement can handle a firearm as well as any man.

I don't know, I wish no one had to kill and be killed.

[gollygee]

47. Nor is it a place for men

We need to get the hell out of there.

[ecstatic]

49. Isn't the problem that women distract men on the battlefield?

And they're afraid that men might die trying to defend women, etc. Or at least that's the impression I got in the movie with Demi Moore about the Navy Seals. :shrug:

[bemildred]

50. Combat is stupid and wasteful and vicious, it has nothing to do with gender. nt

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

51. What do the Generals and Retired Generals say?

This is an excellent question, I'd like to know what the military folks input on this is.

[krispos42]

52. Fewer women, as a percentage, can meet the requirements of physical tests

Men tend to be stronger physically, as well, as bigger, so in those kinds of requirements a larger percentage of the male population will be able to perform the test successfully. Being able to march 20 miles with 80 pounds of gear in a day to reinforce a strategic objective is easier for the male population as a whole then women.

I want the person I'm fighting with strong enough to haul my wounded butt out of the danger zone. I don't care if it's Audie Murphy or GI Jane, but PLEASE haul my wounded butt out of the danger zone!

Have the same requirements for both genders and just accept the fact that the military will be 55% men instead of 49%, or whatever.

Besides, as has been noted before, a lot of jobs require technical expertiese, not brawn. In a crowded Navy ship, a CIC full of 5'5", 140-pound women would make moving around a hell of a lot easier than 6'0" 190-pound men!

[jpgray]

53. Women should meet the same physical requirements as men for military service

Will fewer women qualify? Yep. So what? You won't see women asking for lowered academic requirements for an office job, so why lower them for a physically active job? Those who are saying modern technology obviates the need for high physical standards are being very silly--an effective infantry force needs to run fast, and be as fit as possible for any close combat situations. It's not -all- about pulling triggers and driving vehicles. I don't see any viable reason why women should have lowered standards for doing the same job.

[Toasterlad]

54. How Heavy Is the Shit They Have to Carry?

How much time do they spend out of the tanks and humvees? Do they have to run a lot, carrying a lot?

The military is currently enlisting guys as old as 42, in questionable shape both mentally and physically. Are we supposed to believe that there aren't women who measure up to these "standards"?

If a woman can carry the same shit a man needs to; if she can hump it across the desert when necessary as fast a man can, sign her up and stick her on the front lines. Maybe doing that will put America's sexism to good use: forcing people to ask why ANY of our young people are there.

[ismnotwasm]

55. Oi

I hate double speak crap like this. As stated above, combat isn't a place for human beings, period. That being said, this is a stupid straw argument.

I'm a mother of a decorated female combat veteran, (Out now, thank God) and a son who is in the national guard. (Currently and recently. He will most likely go to Iraq at some point, and my heart is breaking)

My daughter, as such ugly things are measured, makes the better "soldier", both by personality and inclination. What does that mean? Not a goddam thing except as human beings, some still consider solving conflicts by horrible, unimaginable violence a GREAT option.

War is Hell, it's said. And if I believed in hell, it would exist on every battlefield ever fought. Who needs anything other version?

[LaPera]

56. Kick!

:kick:

[Truthiness Inspector]

57. Combat is no place for K. Lopez

Just because she can't hack it doesn't mean other women can't. I think she's from National Review.

EVERY woman who has hacked it knows the jealousy of those who can't, God forbid us physically fit women work alongside their husbands.