Neighbors not happy with bar patrons going outdoors to smoke

[The Straight Story]

Neighbors not happy with bar patrons going outdoors to smoke


CLEVELAND (AP) -- Bars seeking to comply with Ohio's indoor smoking ban have erected outdoor patios where smokers can go to light up, much to the displeasure of some nearby homeowners who don't appreciate the sights and sounds of tavern crowds.

Bob Visnic, owner of The Oriole Cafe in Berea, a suburb west of Cleveland, said he's aware of neighbors' concerns, but he's moving forward with plans to build a patio for smokers because his business has declined since the smoking ban took effect last year.

His patio, which will seat about 60 people, will be equipped with televisions and satellite radio. To appease neighbors, the Berea planning commission issued Visnic a three-month probationary permit and said he must stop serving food and drinks outside at 10 p.m. Visnic agreed.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OH_OUTDOOR_SMOKING_OHOL-?SITE=WBNSTV&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[Drunken Irishman]

1. Who came first, the residents, or the bar?

NIMBY's piss me off. It's like people that move downtown and bitch when a tower blocks their view of the city. Well drr, it's downtown, you moved there knowing development would block your view. Hell, your tower probably blocked the view of the people before you.

So which came first, the bar or the residents? If someone moves next to a bar, they shouldn't be too surprised to see crowds. Of course, if this bar were open later...then I can see their problem, but even then, if they close at 10, what's the problem?

[Igel]

9. Most of them probably lived there before the smoking ban.

And the patio is clearly new.

I've had jobs where I had to be at work by 6 am. Leave home at 5:15 am. Get up at 4:30 am. Now, the good thing was that we got off work at 3 pm before the warehouse got unbearably hot. But going home and taking a nap at 4 pm?

Not everybody has a nice 9-5 job, so 10 pm isn't just when the evening's getting started for some people. Not just poor folk like I was. The investment guy my boss had had to be at his desk when the NYSE opened, even though we were 3 hours behind.

Part of it is whinging. Part sounds justified.

Empathy's good.

[Drunken Irishman]

47. I can understand, but...

It's not against the law and shouldn't be. Noise should only be a problem when past a respectable time. If we don't have limits, then everyone would not be allowed to socialize outside their homes. I'm sure you can find one neighbor who hates the little kids running around, screaming, the dogs barking and the sound of lawn mowers during the day. 10 is not unreasonable by most standards.

[cgrindley]

50. Doesn't matter

Current residential majority should rule in such matters.

[Drunken Irishman]

92. Mob rule, eh?

Nice.

[cgrindley]

95. You're calling the residents of a neighborhood a mob?

instead of the thoughtless drunks from a bar? are you crazy? I have nothing against smoking. I'd take it up again in a heartbeat if my wife wasn't pregnant. But a crowd of drunks smoking outside a bar is gross. There's no need for it. The residents should win.

[Drunken Irishman]

97. Thoughtless drunks?

Wow, that's extreme. They're sitting out on a patio, ENJOYING the night. It isn't as if we're talking about 1, 2 or 3 in the morning here. We're talking about a time when most people are up. What about when a neighbor has a party and allows people to smoke out on their property, should that be banned, too? Let me guess, you're also a strong proponent of those outlandish rules set forth by homeowners societies, right?

Look, what is reasonable here? We can't allow people to smoke in bars, now they can't smoke outside of bars. Either ban the smoking of cigarettes, or try to make reasonable laws. It's getting ridiculous here, as if we're one step closer to completely segregating non-smokers from smokers. What next, create non-smoking parts of towns and towns where you can smoke? Or should we ban neighborhood bars? What about restaurants that offer outdoor smoking, is that ok?

These people are acting crazy and unless these bar patrons (not all that are drunk) are on their property, or that this is taking place at unreasonable hours of the night (it is not), they should shut up. Just like I don't go call the police every time my back neighbor has a BBQ in the summer that lasts until 10 or so at night. Now if that party were continuing well into the morning, then I would be inclined to ask the police to do something about it. But not at 10, especially in the summer.

[cgrindley]

100. Yeah, I am a strong proponent of those outlandish rules set forth

by homeowners' societies, yes. I'm the guy who doesn't like washing lines, motorhomes, or kids out all hours of the night. I like peace and quiet.

Like I said, I honestly could care less about smoking as far as this issue is concerned. To me, the smoking is immaterial. I loved smoking and I'm sure that I'll be a smoker again some day. I miss it like crazy. My issue is that the residents of an area should always beat the shit out of business. Always. Businesses should always lose to residents. Business should never win.

[Drunken Irishman]

102. Yeah, locally owned bars should always lose out to residents.

Because residents are always right, correct? In a perfect world, you would be the only person living on your street. Well guess what, this isn't a perfect world and sometimes you've just got to go with it. This bar is breaking no laws and should not be forced out of business because some homeowners don't like the fact people enjoy having a good time.

It's going to get to the point where people will tell YOU what YOU can do on YOUR property. But let me guess, you wouldn't allow that, would you? Well what if YOUR neighbor wanted to ban YOU from enjoying the summer night in YOUR backyard because it might disturb them in the early evenings?

[cgrindley]

111. Yep, absolutely, businesses should always lose to people

the rights of human beings should always trump those of businesses. Residents should always have a greater voice in a community than a capitalist.

I keep quiet. My summer nights are spent in darkness and silence.

[Drunken Irishman]

113. So just because you keep quiet, the rest of the world should, too?

And I love locally owned businesses being called capitalists. I take it you grow your own food and don't ever go to these establishments, right? Well good for you, but the world isn't like that.

And aren't these human beings rights being trumped, too? Is it not my right to go outside and enjoy the night? Oh but because it might be disturbing some, even though no law states that peace is being disturbed at this hour, we should take away the bar patron rights. Yeah, that's logic.

I wish I could be as non-capitalist as you. Grow my own food for I don't have to buy from capitalist restaurants and stores. Build my own bike, with tools I made myself, so I don't have to buy it from the greedy capitalist bike owner. Make my own music, so I don't have to buy it from the greedy capitalist musicians. But alas, I can't. I'm guilty of shopping at locally owned capitalist businesses. I'm guilty of drinking at locally owned capitalist bars. Hell, my great grandfather owned a corner store, that damn dirty capitalist! He should have been put out of business because his corner store was located in a residential neighborhood and on Saturdays people would fill it to listen to the Utes football team play on the radio. Clearly disturbing some.

[cgrindley]

114. There is an option besides either capitalism or self-sufficiency

I actually think that the government should run everything.

[orleans]

117. if business never wins who will all these residents go and work for?

it's not like were talking about a huge fucking corporation here--it's a bar. a local small business where, i'm guessing, many of those residents like to go and have a drink and meet up. if the owner is losing money he won't be able to stay in business--and that will have an impact on the locals who patronize the bar.

btw--clotheslines are far more environmentally friendly than a dryer.

[cgrindley]

122. For government

I believe in big government.

[orleans]

126. LOL!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Morereason]

68. It doesn't matter. The arguments here are inconsistent

In terms of the smoking...

I will probably get flamed for this... But it doesn't matter who came when. We are talking about something that is a carcinogenic. In the last few years substantial proof has come out, second hand smoke is very toxic.

Almost any other substance, with this kind of known effect, would have been outlawed completely by the FDA (not that I would agree with that), except, that this carcinogin has a strong history in our country and that would be politically difficult.

I think those that are emotionally and physically involved (addicted?) should take a look at their arguments. This is a progressive board. We have a history of protecting our citizens against corporate toxins and carcinogins in the public spaces and our neighborhoods. This is a *good* thing.

If this were a factory subjecting neighbors to the medical possability of cancer, most on this board would be supporting the neighbors in their fight. But because this is a favorite toxin of 30% of the population, and they are fine with the risk, even progressives are willing to compromise this principle.

Sorry, but I am with the neighbors. I am all for the idea of having "smoking" bars that use filteration, just like a factory has to, and keeps it safe for the neighborhoods. Otherwise they should be in an industrial zone. If you wish to smoke in your house, and those around you are fine with it, then fine. Or if you smoke outdoors where there is no one else around. Fine. But don't subject your children and don't subject me to your habit.

Sorry if that offends those of you who smoke. But that would be a consistant, progressive, position.

[frogcycle]

101. well, whichever it is, it was not an OUTDOOR bar with TV blaring

hearing people coming and going, maybe sometimes boisterous, is one thing.

Having them spending the evening getting smashed until 10:00 pm is another entirely. At the very least he should be required to put up sound barriers. It is amazing how much a simple wall can accomplish.

[Drunken Irishman]

103. What?

I hear that stuff EVERY night in the summer here. It's 10:00 we're talking about, not an unreasonable hour at all. I don't live by a bar and I hear kids yelling, playing, music blaring and people having a relatively good time at 9:00 in my neighborhood. I guess I could be a real ass about it and go demand every neighbor to build a sound wall for I don't have to hear their enjoyment.

I also don't live too far from I-80, a major interstate that runs through my neighborhood. At night I can hear cars zipping by -- even though there is a sound wall. Maybe I should demand the government demolish the interstate and put it somewhere else. I mean, we're not even talking 10:00 at night here, rather 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 in the morning.

Sometimes those kids are annoying, but you know what? I live with it! Why? Because I know it's life and the fact is, you can't stop everything just because it might annoy you.

[frogcycle]

107. hmmm

i wonder why so many interstates have sound barriers these days? Maybe you should find out why your neighborhood does not have any clout.

[Drunken Irishman]

108. Let's build huge sound barriers around every house and business, k?

[frogcycle]

110. hey if it doesn't bother you, I don't care

I would not live in your neighborhood. Sounds like a zoo. But then so do most urban areas. I did not mandate the sound barriers along interstates like I-294 around Chicago - or I-19 thre green valley, Az - but evidently enough people objected to noise that somebody put them in the budget. Noise pollution is acceptable to some, not to others, just like smoke, or light pollution. But when someone introduces a change to an existing neighborhood, it seems appropriate to require some level of mitigation.

When the atmosphere is right, I can hear nighttime traffic on I-88 four miles away if i walk 100 ft or so up the street over a slight rise. But the noise is blocked from my yard by that rise. If there were walls along the edge of the right-of-way, then all the people in those four miles would be also shielded. Oh, wait, they are widening it - and adding WALLS!

It is a matter of common courtesy to at least TRY not to impose on one's neighbors. I don't mow the lawn at 6 am, although that is when I would prefer to do it. I don't aim floodlights into the neighbors windows. I endure the occasional backyard party because, well, I know I don't own the entire block. But when the partygoers park on my lawn, i consider that an imposition. When I find fireworks in my backyard, I find that objectionable.

[Drunken Irishman]

112. Most bars have been located in these neighborhoods for decades.

As the article says, he could do away with the patio, but that would not stop them from being loud outside.

These bars can't win for losing. They're told to stop allowing smoking inside, so they do. Then they build a patio to allow those who want to smoke, to smoke outside. Now they can't do that. What next? Not allowing outside dining? Not allowing neighbors to throw parties in their own backyard?

If this were happening at 1 or 2 in the morning, I could see why people would be upset. But 10 at night is not that unreasonable. Family parties last until that hour and we're outside during the summer. Never once have we had anyone complain. But I would expect them to do so if it were 1 in the morning. 10 though? That's extreme.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. but, but, but...

I thought smoking bans INCREASED patronage to bars and taverns! :sarcasm:





damn!.. where did I put that flame-suit??!

[Madspirit]

3. You Can't Smoke in the Clubs of Austin

...and it hasn't hurt our live music scene or our club scene at all. Not even a little.

Lee

[Drunken Irishman]

4. But can you smoke outside on a patio?

[Madspirit]

25. Some...not All

They couldn't grow more space and most of our Hot and Happening clubs are on 6th street, a very crowded place. The ones further out, yes, patios. We have strict smoking ordinances in Austin and contrary to popular mythology, they have not affected business at all. People don't stop listening to music or going out because they can't smoke.

Lee

[qdemn7]

13. Right...

And I would like to see what would happen to all these "Smoking" Bans if cannabis ever became legal.:eyes:

[Madspirit]

23. I Have No Reply For a Post That Makes NO Sense...n/t

[qdemn7]

29. Makes perfect sense.....

The "point" being is that smoking bans are BS, they're just social engineering (Smoking + tobacco companies = horrible stuff, should be banned, but can't be banned it outright since the political power isn't there) hiding behind health concerns. If cannabis was legal those smoking bans would have never been put into place.

[Madspirit]

32. Yeah...it's so mean to NOT give workers and other people cancer

Poor widdle smokers. ...and insult my town all you want. If cannabis was legal there would still be smoking bans. What a crock of crap. I smoke my weed at home. I would never impose my poison on someone else's lungs. NOT. EVER.
Lee

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[qdemn7]

44. Yeah, Lee, I know and I like Austin

I lived in Smithville for 12 years and spent lots of time in Austin. I'm not criticizing Austin, I'm criticizing smoking bans ANYWHERE. I think they're BS.... ANYWHERE in a social environment like bars. And I think cannabis should be legalized, regulated and taxed, just like alcohol. It's bullshit we have all these people in jails and TDC for cannabis related "crimes", and have to early release violent criminals. And no, FT Worth doesn't doesn't smell like cowshit anymore. Doesn't even smell like dead horses since they closed the horse slaughterhouse near where I work. And the money if over in DallASS and that's fine with me. And WTF is wrong with money??? Tons of money has been pumped in Austin over the last 3 decades. Don't be so pissy, I'm not insulting Austin. Jeeeeez! :shrug:

[Jack Sprat]

46. Hey, both of you, just smoke em if you got em.

[NoPasaran]

48. Not that it has much to do with smoking

But GWB won Travis County in 2000.

[Madspirit]

90. BUT HE DIDN'T WIN AUSTIN. I didn't make a claim for the county...JUST AUSTIN...n/t

[GOPisEvil]

96. That's because Nader scored about 10% in Travis County.

GWB won a plurality, not a majority. (If memory serves correctly.)

My memory serves me correctly: http://www.co.travis.tx.us/county_clerk/election/20001107/TravisSummary.PDF

[The Straight Story]

22. Hi Lee!

There is a smoking ban here in CA as well - but people ignore it and no one does jack about it - so no, business was not hurt :)

[Madspirit]

27. Hey You!

When are you going to post at my group? Huh? *nagging over*

They are really strict here and it does not affect business.

Lee

[Scout1071]

36. Sure, cause the weather in Austin is just like Ohio.

I mean, especially come January.

[Madspirit]

91. Clever and comprehensive retort....not...n/t

[Scout1071]

99. You want comprehensive?

Let's compare the average temps of an Ohio city versus Austin:

OHIO
Average Winter High Temperature 31.7 degrees 41.18 degrees
Average Winter Low Temperature 18.6 degrees 22.80 degrees
Average Summer High Temperature 84.9 degrees 86.46 degrees
Average Summer Low Temperature 61.5 degrees 62.23 degrees
Average Annual Precipitation 39.9 inches 38.69 inches


AUSTIN
Month High Low All time High All time Low Average Rainfall All Time
Driest All Time
Wettest
January 60.3 40.0 90 -2 1.89 0 9.21
February 65.1 44.0 99 -1 1.99 0 9.41

June 90.9 71.1 108 51 3.81 0 14.96
July 95.0 73.4 109 57 1.97 0 12.80


Yes, an average winter high of 31 degrees in January is pretty close to Austin's average of 60 degrees. And the average nightly lows? Who doesn't love standing outside at 8pm on a Saturday night in 18 degree weather?

[Morereason]

81. Downtown Austin is an example of solid PLANNING.. which is the missing element in this discussion

The problem really is a zoning one. Have good planning. Setbacks, filtering requirements, zone them so they do not create conflict.

[pitohui]

5. well ya can't win for losing these days EOM

m

[EFerrari]

6. Sounds like a cool place to get a drink and a smoke.

lol

[Canuckistanian]

39. Or a smoke and a pancake

[napi21]

7. That sounds link the idiots in Moon Twp. near Pgh, Pa. who buy

a house near the airport then protest the noise from the jets! It's not only in Pgh. either. I live in Ga. now (yea, I know, feel sorry for me!), and the nitwits here who move close to the Atlanta AP and complain about the noise! Geesh! You can have peace and quiet, and probably have to drive pretty far to work, or you can live near the action and have some noise! You can't have it ALL at the same time!

[trumad]

8. Not true...

Bars are usually indoors... and the smoking ban pushed a lot of people outdoors, hence more noise for the neighbors... I can see why they're annoyed.

[napi21]

12. Did you ever live neear a QUIET BAR? Come on! Think about what you're

saying!

[trumad]

19. Let's see---a big party indoors--- or a big party outdoors...

what's quieter for the neighbors?

[napi21]

28. somehow I doubt we're talking about a BIG PARTY at a local bar.

Once in a while, maybe, but all the time? Naaw. You're hunting for the worst case sceanario here. We have several neighbors who have big outdoor parties several times a year too. You think I should get all excited about that? I don't!

[trumad]

49. Dude---you get my point

people outdoors carrying on are much louder than indoor people uh carrying on. Right?

[Morereason]

75. Yep. We have answers... Require industrial filtration and zoning

Keep the smoke down. Have "licenses" to limit the number of smoking bars, just like we now do with liquor licenses. But because it is toxic and a carcinogin we regulate it and keep it confined. If we were truly consistant smoking would be banned by the epa. But it would seem this would be a good way to contain and yet allow people with the habit to have a place to enjoy.

You know it is interesting how we do not have this problem with theaters. Why? because we zone them.

[KurtNYC]

52. I live within 100 yards of 6 bars

and never hear noise from any of them.

[Morereason]

77. You probably have good insulation or stronger walls than the average house

Or the bars have better acoustic setup, brick walls, etc. In Europe they are less likely to have these problems too. Unfortunately we make our home walls like paper.

[alphafemale]

62. My sister lives in Moon Twp. Her house is so soundproofed you can't even hear the jets from inside.

And she is right on the flightpath too!

It's almost like you could reach up and touch the damn thing.

[napi21]

89. I didn't mean that EVERYONE in Moon complains, but I'm sure

your sister has hear the whiners. When I lived in Pgh. the ones I heard complaining the loudest were the people who had moved there long after the airport was there.

I encountered a similar situation when I moved to SC. We bought a great house in a SD with a lake. There was a small drag strip across the lake. You couldn't see it, but on race night (one night a week) you could hear the rev of the engins. It never bothered me, and I honestly didn't even notice it unless we were outside, but there were a hand full of neighbors who complained about it constantly! I asked them several times if they knew the trrack was there before they bought their house? They said yes, but they still hate the noise!

[Toasterlad]

10. That's Right. Everybody Gets to Be Upset Except the Smokers.

That's cause smokers aren't real people, so they have no rights. We'll just take the money from the 400% tax we put on their product and continue to treat them as the obnoxious, inconsiderate people we perceive them to be but that we, in fact, are.

[trumad]

11. Here's comes the smoking crying brigade!

http://www.auburn.edu/~murraba/elucid/baby,crying,tantrum.jpg

[Toasterlad]

14. That's a Mighty Big Picture. Does It Come With a Point?

[SammyWinstonJack]

64. ...

:spray:

[napi21]

15. Pfft! Is that YOU? Looks like you have a worm in your mouth! n/t

[Mythsaje]

16. Well, that proved his point.

Nice job.

[kster]

21. I heard that there is

a Smokers Revenge Club, that when a state makes an UNREASONABLE LAW against the Smokers that the Smokers get together a group of four Smokers and each one takes one week a month to drive to a neighboring state to buy cigarettes for all foUr in the group, Taking that revenue away from the state that is being unreasonable, Maybe we need more SMOKER REVENGE CLUBS?

[SoCalDem]

17. Jesus Christ.. Just line them all up and shoot them

(choose either group).

[orleans]

118. LOL for the punchline! n/t

[valerief]

18. People still smoke?

[trumad]

20. Yeah I know...

What you're about to witness in this thread, is a world record of rationalizations.

[The Straight Story]

24. Smoke? Took this a bit ago:

And it ain't clouds :)

[orleans]

119. damn! i didn't realize i smoked that much! n/t

[Raejeanowl]

26. Not Just That

Everybody including the police and the neighbors pretend that the bar patrons are all driving away sober! Wrap your chops around that one.

[SoCalDem]

30. Not where I live..

There was a notoriously WILD club here, and there was only one way out..turn right on xxx street or turn left.. The club was inside a shopping center with only one exit onto the main drag and was halfway between two north south streets.

EVERY friday night, cops would set up "ID checks" at BOTH intersections and our town made a TON of money.. and got a lot of drunken gangsters off the road..solved a few crimes from Compton, Pomona, east LA..

[Beelzebud]

83. Step away from the PC and go out in the real world of average people.

Millions smoke.

[valerief]

123. I guess I should have used the sarcasm icon. nt

[Bennyboy]

31. In California the bars that have smoking areas

are at a distinct advantage. many bars have no customers inside and the outdoor patio is full. even when music is there, people will be outside.

I just think of Tipitinas in NOLA where nobody gives a flying fuck about what goes on around there cuz the money comes in.

[EFerrari]

38. I used to stop by a bar on my way home from my teaching gig

twice a week. It was downtown and sort of a cool place. The bartender handed out ashtrays and told us he'd turn us in in a heartbeat if the cops came around. There were no nonsmokers in this place. It was in a little alley in the financial district and had a good house band.

Sue me. lol

[karlrschneider]

40. It works both ways, I guess. There's a bar not far from where I live

in which it's illegal to smoke (same for retail stores and restaurants)...but pretty much everybody who goes in there smokes. The local sheriff deputies come in for a drink and a smoke. Nobody gives a shit...the anti-smokers stay away and everyone's happy.
:shrug:

[EFerrari]

41. Yahoo! needs to put up maps for dens of iniquity.

:)

[karlrschneider]

42. Maybe so but wouldn't it pretty much cover the whole country?

:rofl:

[kster]

43. 70% Smokers- 30% Non Smokers, In Bars, Majority Rules

oh wait, not in America, see post SEE POST 21, when the Non-Smokers have to pay seven dollars for a bag of sugar and or a gallon of milk because we (the smokers) decide top FIGHT BACK, then they will conform to what is a reasonable law.

[KurtNYC]

56. I like being able to go to a bar without having to do YOUR drug

No one likes being told what to do (or what not to do) but what's worse is having someone put their favorite drug into your system without your permission. There are many ways to do nicotine -- gum, chew, etc. and it's your body and your life. But I choose not to get high on nicotine and I don't know why some people would think they have the right to put their drug into my body via smoke.

I will respect anyone's right to put whatever they want into their body as long as they choose a delivery system that leaves my body out of the equation.

[Toasterlad]

59. So Why Didn't You Just Go to a Non-Smoking Bar?

You get upset at people "doing things" to your body without your approval, but you see nothing wrong with refusing to let them do something, when you have an alternative?

"Why should I have to go to a non-smoking bar? I like this one! Except for all the smokers! They must change, because I'm morally superior to them! All must bow to my wishes!"

Sorry to get melodramatic; I know that's not what you intended to say. But, in reality, that's what you're saying.

[kster]

86. Exactly ! You need to go to a bar that you won't have do my drug

a non-smoking bar.

[KurtNYC]

115. the OP was about smoke and noise affecting people in their OWN homes

why can't you do your drug in a way that doesn't affect me?

[RandiFan1290]

120. The OP had nothing to do with smoke

It is a noise issue. No one in that story said anything about 2nd hand smoke from a patio bar bothering them in their home.

[Kingshakabobo]

61. In all my years of going to bars, I never ONCE heard someone say....

...."let's go out to the bar for a smoke."

People go to bars to drink juice, water, alcohol, or whatever - The point is, they CHOOSE what they put in their systems. Just because you got suckered by the Joe Camel ad when you were 13, that doesn't mean everyone else should "enjoy" YOUR choice of poisons.

[kster]

74. All you have to do is beat your alcohol addiction

then you won't have to go to a place that 70% of the people Smoke. Thats where the non-smokers are being unreasonable.

Thats my only point.


You must have been suckered by this guy depending on your age.

[valerief]

124. There's a need for alcohol-free smoking bars in Merka. Years ago when I was young,

we used to call that "everywhere" because there was no place you could go without cigarette smoke, except churches, I think. Everywhere was Cigaretteville. Actually, Merka probably needs about 3 states devoted to cigarette smoking. The rest of the U.S. can be smoke-free. It might be best if the cigarette states were in asbestos states, too, so you could blame the lung cancer on either cigarettes or asbestos.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[WindRavenX]

35. Who didn't see *this* coming?

:banghead:

I don't understand why banning smoking in *all* bars is a reasonable idea at all.

[alarimer]

37. I am pretty sure this will not be an issue in winter

It sounds like they already solved it anyway by not serving outdoors after 10.

[kster]

45. Smokers PLEASE vote this Thread UP!!!!!

[acmavm]

51. I quit smoking a while back but for the life of me I don't see why some

bars/restaurants can't allow smoking. Smoking is not illegal everywhere, so it is not really illegal. Smoking and smokers should be allowed somewhere to congregate and the holier-than-thou non-smokers who benefit from all the tax money the is collected off a pack of cigaretts can just stay the hell out.

As long as cigarettes are legal, and as long as they support so many public projects, and as long and the government subsidizes the tobacco growers (they're farmers after all), and yes folks, it does hurt the bar industry, they need to have places that smokers can go.

[SoCalDem]

53. Here's the argument they used in California

Smoking & drinking "go together", and if SOME bars allowed smoking, the patrons of the non-smoking bars would go THERE, causing a loss of business for the non-smoking bar owner.

Even though bars where every worker there smoked, and most of the patrons smoked, the state would not allow them to choose.

They did (in the beginning at least) exempt some Mom & Pop bars with a certain number of employees..so the owners just laid off enough people to reach that magic number..

and some bars closed altogether for lack of business as people just started hanging out with friends in their own homes..

Strangely, the law , in some cases, saved drinkers money and kept them at home and off the roads, so maybe it was a win-win..except for the bartenders who lost tip money and the bar owners who threw in the towel..

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kingshakabobo]

63. "hang out with the cool kids".... LOL

I see you are still under the impression smoking makes you "cool." :rofl:

(pssst, Joe Camel was a cartoon and The Marlboro man died of lung cancer - let it go)

[kster]

80. "clean lungs and damaged livers"

:thumbsup:

[bbgrunt]

94. self delete

[Name removed]

104. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zanne]

54. Let's stop trying to tell people how to live their lives

When did we become so judgmental? Some people should live in remote places, far from society, so they won't be "bothered" by other people's habits. I'm not a smoker but I've come to the conclusion that I prefer them to non-smokers who endlessly judge them. If you don't like other people's habits, you might want to think for a minute that they might not like your habits. Sheesh. Whatever happened to live and let live?

[EstimatedProphet]

55. Hear hear

I don't smoke cigarettes anymore, but if someone wants to do so, it's fine with me. As it is, the bars aren't letting people smoke indoors, so what else are they supposed to be allowed to do. They're in compliance with the law now!

[zanne]

57. I don't think the objections to outside smoking are practical.

I just really dislike the judgmental aspect of it. It's self righteous.

[Morereason]

71. If this business started moulding plastics and smoke filtered to the neighbors

you would no doubt feel different. How is it any different. I think we just have accepted smoking as being "different". But it is precisely the same.

[Beelzebud]

85. Hey, the anti-smoking crusaders didn't want them lighting up inside.

Either make tobacco illegal, or cut out the BS.

[frogcycle]

105. one of the most idiotic posts i've ever read

I don't give a shit about their habits, as long as they don't impose them on me. The bar smoking ban is over the top, I agree, but the argument that there should be some sort of parity between those who have a jhabit of smoking and those who have a habit of NOT smoking is absurd. My NOT smoking soes not inflict anything on those around me. It is fundamentally different, and the whiny-baby attitude of the poor persecuted smokers is illogical and contrived

[zanne]

121. So I'm a whiny baby non-smoker?

I think the smoking restrictions are over the top, but I don't smoke. It isn't about smokers being persecuted--it's about non-smokers behaving in a holier-than-thou and judgmental manner. Isn't that what Right-Wing Evangelicals do?

[frogcycle]

125. yes it is

and you are being judgmental of ME in thinking my objections to being subjected to cigarette smoke are judgmental. I DON'T CARE if they smoke, but just being outdoors does not make breathing it any less offensive. It does not dissipate instantaneously. I can ride my bike in the park and hit a cloud of noxious smoke and know that someone is walking the path up ahead carrying a cigarette. I can tell if the person in the car ahead of me is smoking. I would not bother trying to prevent that. But if a commercial enterprise were setting up a 60-seat outdoor area for people to drink and smoke next door, I'd be really pissed.

[zanne]

127. That's just too precious. nt

[Dulcinea]

60. This just reinforces my belief...

...that individual business owners should be the ones to decide whether or not to allow smoking in their establishment, not the government. There should be a place for everyone! If you hate smoke, go to a smoke-free bar. If you want to smoke, you should be able to do so without having to go outside in the scorching heat, freezing cold, rain, snow, etc. People can go where they please & vote with their feet.

Whatever happened to freedom of choice? This is America, people!

Blanket smoking bans are a sign of creeping fascism.

[Kansas Wyatt]

65. This is just Bullshit going overboard.

Everyone knows that there is and always has been smoke in bars. Smoking there is part of the bar itself, and like a fixture on the wall.

If you cannot tolerate the smoke, then you go outside on a patio or go drink in a smoke free bar.

If the bar owner wants to open a smoke free bar, then they have that right.

Oh by the way, my nicotine of choice is Copenhagen, unless I drink and light up a pack of burn me downs.

[Morereason]

70. And you are fine to smoke or chew... until you subject another to your toxin of choice

[Kansas Wyatt]

82. Guess what?

Bars - Smoking and drinking occurs there, and have for years and years. They used to even set spittoons in front of the bar too. By the way, others chewing does NOT affect YOUR health, so we must mandate spittoons all around bars as well.

Don't like smoke, then stay away from it. If it means you can't go to the bar, then find one that suits your wishes.

Your argument is like saying, that there is a connection between bar drinking and fatal auto accidents, so there must be a ban on bars serving alcohol.

Why don't you just find a bar that does not allow smoking, and be happy and content in your own world, instead of mandating your rules on others to obey.

[Morereason]

87. I wasn't saying no bars. I believe we just need to be better at zoning them

But I also believe that if the smoke is a problem for neighbors it is up to the bar to resolve it or the city to if they won't. It is a carcinogin and as such no one that does not want to be exposed to it *unreasonably* should have to be. I am not talking about walking by someone who smokes. But as for businesses that create a constant environment it should be regulated.

[Toasterlad]

106. What Part of "Don't Go to Bars Where People Smoke" Don't You Understand?

You are telling people they have no right to smoke in a bar that you do not own, and that you are not required to frequent. You are out of line.

Go drink somewhere else. It's that simple.

[madmom]

66. stop serving food and drink outside at 10:00 sounds reasonable to

me (I"m a non smoker) who knows maybe they might make some new friends!!!:toast:

[davsand]

67. I'm really disturbed at telling any business owner how they can run it.

Before anybody jumps my case asking about strip clubs and porno shops next to schools, I'm not talking about zoning laws here. I fully understand the need for controls on certain things.

What I AM talking about is the creeping realization that as much as we all bemoan the conservatives' desire to dictate the occupancy of our uterus or who we can marry, our "side" does it too.

I used to think that part of the debate was driven by an interest in public health, but I'm not so sure of that any more. As has already been pointed out, smoking really IS a health problem. We ALL realize it and there is a huge body of work out there to document it. I don't really think there is much room left to debate the negative impact that tobacco use has on our society.

So far, our discussion is NOT about banning tobacco sales completely in the US. Our discussion is NOT about making smoking cessation an national effort. Our discussion is about telling business owners HOW they can use their own property.

I'm starting to wonder just how we can EVER illustrate with any credibility that we are different from the conservatives we love to complain about.


Laura

[Morereason]

69. How is it any different than regulating a small business that burns plastics in your neighborhood?

[davsand]

72. You mean Zoning?

I don't have an issue with that.

If our society as a whole has a problem with tobacco use then banning it in public is not enough. If we are dead serious about how dangerous we think it is--then make it completely illegal to raise it, sell or to process it (like pot is now, for instance, or booze during Prohibition.)

Unless we want to take THOSE steps to outlaw it completely, then I don't think we have ANY right to tell a business owner how they run their business. Regulating WHERE those businesses are located is a part of urban planning, but telling business owners HOW they use their property is not much different than some fundy telling me I have to be pregnant or telling me who to marry.

I see no difference.



Laura

[Morereason]

73. We would not ban a plastics business, we would zone them to another area

I think we have good mechanisms that can deal with this problem if we get all the emotion out of it (and the bias of smokers). It is a toxin. But it is wanted by some in society. We have the technology to make that work. We require other companies to use technology to resolve these kinds of issues. Use zoning and setbacks, then require business who want to provide smoking invest in filtration systems.
But because smokers are emotionally invested and because we see this as different than other similar toxins politically there must be more education. Everyone can have their "freedom" and habit. We should just be consistant with our principles. If you expose others then you have to find another way.

[The Straight Story]

76. So because you can regulate some aspects you should not be called out when it is too much?

When is enough enough and we tell em it is overboard?

[Morereason]

79. That is what society does. We are making more problems this way

Why are there complete bans??? I would blame that somewhat on the reluctance of smokers and others. We end up both posturing and then finally the population majority gets tired of it and bans it all.

There are solutions and compromises that would work. Zoning works, look at theaters. You would have the same problem if you put theaters in the middle of homes and did not have setbacks. Zone the placement of bars. If they are in neighborhoods they need setback, or make a small business zone of regular small shops around it. The only thing difficult about that is getting used to it.

[Drunken Irishman]

98. Hm, I don't know what city you live in, but mine has theatres right in residential 'hoods.

Maybe your city is newer, which means more strip malls and suburban development, but many older cities have bars intertwined with the neighborhood, just like restaurants. I know bars that have been at the same place far longer than many of the residents that live next door to it. Should we automatically move every bar out of a neighborhood and into a commercial zone?

And what about restaurants that allows outdoor smoking? I know many restaurants -- more so than bars -- that are located in residential neighborhoods. Should we close down those, too?

I lived in an apartment for a while that was next to a bar. It was ok, I knew that was what I would be dealing with when I moved in there. That bar had been at that location long before I was even alive and continues to thrive. I would hate to see local neighborhood bars and restaurants forced out of business because of this. They've added so much character to so many cities, that it would be a real shame to lose them.

[B Calm]

78. I don't smoke. But, I think these smoking bans in bars are insane!

If you can't stand the smell of cigarettes, don't go into the bars.. It's that simple!

I feel the same way about abortion!

[Beelzebud]

84. The lesson here: Be careful what you ask for.

Guess what. People are going to smoke no matter what you tell them, and no matter what laws you enact.

If tobacco were illegal, people would still smoke, and there would be a black market for it.

So the smokers can't smoke indoors? Guess what? They'll smoke outside. Thats how people are.

BTW, I'm a non-smoker. When I go to a bar full of partying drinkers, I EXPECT that I will be around tobacco smoke.

I guess to some of us, freedom is still important.

[FormerOstrich]

88. I certainly wish the rabid don't-you-dare-smoke-here

types would turn thier energy to the big brown clouds that hang over most of our cities (and no that ain't tobacco smoke). Or turn thier energy to the quality of our drinking water (ever read the little analysis card).

Smokers pay out the ass (here in Arizona a pack of cigs are $6 and talk of increased federal taxes are in session). No one mentions how well they like those contemptible smokers money, now do they?

It use to be so easy. You could find an establishment with a smoking room (be it bar or restaurant) enjoy a cigarette and be on your way back to the sterile environments (all is cool). BUT NO!!! That wasn't good enough.... Now you pushed them all out side and made rude smokers out of people.

I have a flash for you...People don't like standing outside in the elements by an establishment where you are going to walk through and look disgusted. But tough shit...it's the last places to smoke......and they usually don't even bother to put ashtrays out so they make litter bugs out of us, too.

Do me a favor. Go downtown and breath some of that clean air.

[KiraBS]

93. Not surprising

That's a problem in the UK, they banned smoking in pubs but smokers just go outside.
I heard an owner of a London boutique describing the problems she know has because she is opposite a pub in one of those narrow lanes. She has to keep her shop door closed the cigarette smoke that was contained in the pub, was on the street and getting on to the clothes.
The pubs with beer yards and gardens have put in those patio heaters, so smokers will still go to the pub and be warm if they stay outside.
Our soaps have had made pointed comments about the problems the smoking ban has made,especially for bar staff that smoke.

[gollygee]

109. It sounds like it's more about noise than smoking, right?

I don't think they should be able to have that much noise outside in a residential area. They need a smoking area inside, or they need a quieter outdoor area for smokers - maybe somewhere to smoke and then go back inside when they're done.

[nolabels]

116. Obvious answer: just get rid of the neighbors

besides what is so disagreeable about nicotine laden drunk plowing his car through the side of your house on his way back from the bar :shrug: