These smoking laws and bans .

[blues90]

I admit I smoke , I wish I had never started . I've been smoking 37 years and used to smoke 3 packs a day . Somewhere along the way I cut back to 1 pack a day , this was not out of a deliberate cutback perhaps since they spiked up the nic this is the reason .

I have absolutely no sense of smell , never have but there are rare times when I have smelled cig smoke or gasoline , the cig smoke was quite bad .

Now with all these new bans suddenly smokes are a target by people who don't smoke . It was never lets give people the choice if they want to quite and if so offer free stop smoking plans or patches , no lets just bump this on them and fine them and push them off as a threat to everyones health .

Lets never consider how difficult it is to quit and lets mark them as criminals who suddenly have to change their entire life style to comply with the will of others .

I can go places and not smoke for hours without a problem and respect the wishes of others however if there is nowhere I can go even outdoors in some areas in calif then I have to cut off half of my life .

I can understand not smoking indoors but not everywhere . I don't like being marked as a target .

There are many things that none smokers that may not be a health hazzard to me but are none the less troublesome and irritating .

I can't go out to eat without hearing someones unruley child screaming or enjoy a movie without the same thing .

I am forced to listen to extremely loud car sound systems which was once against the law but somehow this just vanished , now loud is good and even though auto manufactureres removed the ash trays through the motivation of profit they now offer loud sound systems as factory equipment .

Now this may not be a health hazard other than my loss of hearing , along with the alarm systems set off by the slightest vibration , but this is ok , it's ok that everytime someone unlocks or locks their car I have to hear the series of beeps or horn blasts . This is a promotion of car insurance companies for a lower rate but does nothing at all to stop auto theft . Have you ever seen anyone rush out when an alarm goes off , never , it just times out and is ignored .

I don't drive much but I have to breath the toxic exhaust fumes and tire dust and have no say in this at all .

What really astounds me it people get bent out of shape with a smoker but not with their car exhaust which is much worse , you may not smell it but it's there in an invisable killer but yet this is just now been decided it may pose a health risk .


I am not here to promote smoking or encourage it , far from it .

I am here to say lets be fair and not just focus on one aspect in this toxic , polluted world .

It is not a pleasent sight to sit down to dinner and watch people chew with their mouths open or eat ten times what is considered normal , this is a health risk with a cushion , you are bashing the overweight .

I do not see why there cannot be smoking and none smoking bars , there is a sign so make your choice and shut up .

I have been trying to quit smoking but I must say it will never be because of the none smokers push or insult .

I just try my best to follow laws and rules and not judge people since it is not my place to change people nore is it theirs to change me .

Change takes effort and understanding and in most cases help not a hit over the head with a club .

I voted yes for the one dollar tax on cigs here in calif years ago because this money was supposed to go to cancer cures and smoking programs but where has this money gone , well I will never find the answer for that .

All I would ask is before a none smoker jumps into a rage because they feel they have the power of law on their side , stop and think of the person who smokes , understand it is an addiction and not a deliberate slap in your face , it is a battle for the smoker and we don't need forced banter to make it worse .

I have been outside , downwind and I mean strong wind and have had none smokers wave their arms in protest when they are not in any threat of the smoke , this is now their programed mindset .

I have worked in small closed offices breathing 10 different perfumes or aftershaves and bug sprays that are sent through the entire office and I don't feel these are doing me any good at all , but then I can say nothing .

Think before you react , that's pretty simple .

[Mist]

1. I put a lot of the anti-smoking noise down to a virulent type of self-

righteous Puritanism, which seems to be part of the national character, and will consistently come out one way or another. There's little sense in obsessing about cigarette smoking when there's so much large-scale pollution in our world. Fine if you don't want someone smoking in your home or car, but to banish the outdoors as a smoking venue is Big Brotherish, IMO.

FWIW, business has been down at pubs in NYC since Bloomberg outlawed smoking indoors (other than private homes). Business not off for bars/pubs that offer entertainment, and not down for restaurants, but plain old pubs and bars have seen a drop-off in business. Bloomberg is an ex-smoker and has been nannying everyone on the smoking thing.

[Greyhound]

36. "Self-righteous Puritanism" is the American Way, it is so deeply ingrained in our national

character we are rarely even aware of it.

It is what gave us this continent (the best parts anyway) by allowing us to ignore what was done to the others that happened to live on "our land". It allowed us to buy into a "Manifest Destiny" and ignore the looting of 2 continents and the establishment of the American Empire.

It's just so much easier to concentrate on smoking and ignore that our lifestyle is toxic.

[Jed Dilligan]

50. The funny thing is, to those of us from other backgrounds

(non-WASPs, I mean) the Puritanism is very visible, shrill, and alien. It continues to be no matter how we live around each other. This is the source of 99% of cognitive dissonance in this country. There are people for whom Cromwellian anti-life-ism is home base, people who came to this beautiful land fleeing from those people, and increasing numbers of hitherto unengaged ethnicities who must see it as something from another planet.

I don't know if we can ever make it as one country, I really don't.

[Greyhound]

62. My ancestors tried to get away from it too, but they just kept expanding and following us

and imposing their horrible anti-everythignthatisn'tlikeIamism on everybody, or else just killing them. Now there's no place left to run, no frontiers, and the rest of the world isn't letting many in.

[msongs]

2. you have no right to poison others with your drug addiction - keep it

away from other people, and from entering the atmosphere where smoke contributes to greenhouse gases, and you're fine by me.
I think there should be bars where drug addicts can puff away all they want and all the staff will also be smokers.

smoking is 100% stoppable by somebody who wants to stop. if one smokes it is by choice.

help is available for those who really want it.

changing the subject is merely avoidance and comparing smoking issues to overeating, car alarms and other behaviors is disingenuous.

BTW if someone in your offices stinks up the place with perfumes etc, you CAN say something about it.

Quit smoking today. I quit, others can too.

Msongs
www.msongs.com

[blues90]

8. anything is 100% stopable

I am not using over eating or car alarms as a distration , if one group of people have the right to use smoking as one source out of millions that pollute and kill , then I feel they better look at themselves and then drop some habit they have and make a sacrifice for the better of all and not simply target smokers as a simple way out .

I really doubt all the smokers worldwide combined do as much if any damage to the air when compared to one wild fire or chemical plant explosion . How can anyone even measure the damage smoking does to the air , it's burning leaves just as burning trees and far less damaging than burning plastic or auto exhaust spent by billions of cars .

It is all about what people chose to target not about proof or reality .

I can assure you since I worked around cars most of my life when I die it will be contributed to the cigs and never the reat of the chemicals I breathed all those years , simply because smoking is a target .

[Warpy]

9. I am terribly sorry smokers feel so terribly inconvenienced

by having to go outdoors to smoke. I know they are uncomfortable when they can't do so as soon as they feel the craving.

However, being around a smoker in an enclosed space causes me to go into bronchospasm. If you want to know what it feels like, stick your head under water and try to take a deep breath.

I am terribly sorry, but the comfort and convenience of Jonesing smokers is less important than my life.

Just set fire to that thing outside and we'll all do just fine. I might wrinkle my nose if I get a whiff of it, but it's not concentrated enough to make me sick.

[alfredo]

30. I smoked 3 packs a day. I went cold turkey and never smoked again.

I still feel bad about what I jerk I was about my drug of choice. I subjected a lot of innocent people to my poison.

[qdemn7]

44. Poison???

Smoking bans are just more Prohibitionist social engineering (Smoking + tobacco companies = horrible stuff, should be banned, but can't be banned it outright since the political power isn't there) hiding behind health concerns. If cannabis was legal those smoking bans would have never been put into place. Prohibition didn't work with alcohol and hasn't worked with drugs.

[LanternWaste]

66. Well, yeah... poison...

Well, yeah... poison.

Cigarettes contain 43 known cancer-causing (carcinogenic) compounds and 400 other toxins. These include nicotine, tar, and carbon monoxide, as well as formaldehyde, ammonia, hydrogen cyanide, arsenic, and DDT.
(http://www.quitsmokingsupport.com/whatsinit.htm)

And before we get our righteous indignation out of joint, I'm a 20+ year smoker...

[TahitiNut]

68. I'm guessing tap water does too. (Just not enough to exceed 'standards.')

:shrug: It sure is a convenient half-truth, though.

In addition, The Center for Study of Responsive Law's, Troubled Water on Tap report, states that over 2,100 contaminants have been found in drinking water. Of those 2,100, 190 are known to cause adverse health effects. In total, 97 carcinogens, 82 mutagens and suspected mutagens (cause cell mutations), 23 tumor promoters and 28 acute and chronic toxic contaminants have been detected in U.S. drinking water.
http://www.bidness.com/esd/showering.htm

[LanternWaste]

71. But tap-water's not addictive....

But tap-water's not addictive.

For the longest time I actually tried to defend my habit, but after a while I realized that I was maintain an indefensible position and that the only reason I was getting frustrated at 'restrictive' laws was because I am addicted to something that screwed up my health and the health of other people.

Smoking since 1984 has cost me app. $26,000. In effect, I've put a brand new car (with all the shiny doodad accessories) into my lungs for no good reason. I suck. :P

[TahitiNut]

73. It's not? I hear people who attempt to withdraw from it often die.

:shrug:

Nonetheless, I'm often inspired by the stories of people who've found Jesus. Attaboy.

[LanternWaste]

83. Those chosen few move away from tap water

Those chosen few move away from tap water to the glories of bottled water (o-k, I got nuthin'... lol)

[bpeale]

46. there is nothing worse than an arrogant former smoker

[Dulcinea]

47. Hear, hear!

I get so sick of the self-righteous people who rave constantly about smoking. Whatever happened to "live and let live?" Sheesh!

BTW, I think pot should be legalized & taxed the same way cigarettes are.

[bpeale]

51. AMEN BABY!

[youthere]

63. This non-smoker applauds you!

Sanctimonious lot, they are.

[SidDithers]

64. except an inconsiderate smoker...nt

Sid

[bpeale]

i have found...

as a rule, that most smokers are a pretty considerate lot. its when you try to RAM your agenda down their throats that they become as inconsiderate as you are.

[blues90]

72. That's really the entire point .

The problem is being forced to go along with sudden rules . I would like to quit ,for some it may be easier than for others , it depends on the person and their will power and situation .

Money is certainly a huge part to consider .

You can't blame cig smoke for all cancers , if this is the main focus then people are willfully ignoring all other sources of pollution that cause cancer .

So go ahead and breath in those exhaust fumes in bumper to bumper traffic or in an enclosed backed up parking structure and feel safe through ignorence . But don't look beyond cigs for other breathing problems or the chemicals pumped into the air or used around the home even it smells pleasant.

[bpeale]

74. my dad's doctor said...

EVERYONE is going to die of cancer. its just a matter of when and what kind. he was treating my dad for lymphoma before he died.

my saying is EVERYONE has to die, and EVERYONE has to die of something. no one lives forever. you're going to die and its probably going to be painful.

[Beaverhausen]

78. yeah, that being able to breathe "agenda" really infringes on your need to smoke

sorry to inconvenience you.

[bpeale]

80. then go somewhere else

why is it you have to force your presence in their places with your rules & your ideas? why can't you be happy with 90% of places catering to you? how selfish, insensitive a clod can you be? let them have their bars & places they want to themselves.

[Beaverhausen]

82. There has been an indoor smoking ban in CA for years - it works just fine.

If you have to smoke, step outside. It's simple. It works. End of story.

I shouldn't have to not go places I want to/have to just because some smokers can't be considerate and go outside.

[Bake]

81. Most of us try to be considerate.

We have a designated smoking area at my office building. It is enclosed by concrete block walls (we call it the Cell Block). Non-smokers will actually come into this enclosed, outdoor area and BITCH ABOUT THE SMOKERS!

I would never smoke in someone else's home, nor in his/her car, nor in his/her face. Most of us "filthy smokers" are like that; in fact I know of no smokers who AREN'T. I'm pretty damn tired of hearing about the "inconsiderate smokers."

Bake

[Katherine Brengle]

48. Seconded.

I understand that it can be aggravating to deal with this stuff if you're a smoker (when these laws first went into effect here in MA, I was still a smoker myself), but come on.

There are programs to help you quit. There are free resources. And even the resources you have to pay for aren't all that bad money-wise - not as bad as a pack-a-day habit.

It's not worth holding onto.

[bpeale]

75. since the govt promoted smoking all those years

they should PAY for everyones attempts to quit. they are partially responsible.

but have you thought of this? when they quit, taxes are going to go WAY the hell up. are you ready to pay for it? you're going to end up paying your fair share & you ain't gonna like it.

[Xenotime]

56. Smoking kills...plain and simple.

[rodeodance]

3. People have to have someone/thing to hate: smokers and Immigrants seem

to be the top of the list lately.

[wanpete]

14. I don't hate smokers. I hate breathing the toxic gases they exhale when they smoke around me or my

children. Let's get real. Smoking is a terrible habit and extremely dangerous to the health of the smoker and those they smoke around.

If you are a smoker, quit. It's not simple or easy as it is an addiction. But like most addictions, it is dangerous and can lead to death if it is not overcome.

Not hating here at all. Just keeping it very real from a nonsmoker's perspective.

[bpeale]

76. i got news for you: DEATH IS INEVITABLE

[SoCalDem]

21. Forgot to add fat people.. and Lordy Lordy look out if you are an overweight immigrant smoker

:scared:

[LanternWaste]

67. I think I can speak for a number of smokers...

While I can't speak for illegal immigrants (though my girl friend can...), I think I can speak for a number of smokers: "I don't feel hatred leveled against me".

But on the other hand, that may be because, out of civility and manners I never smoke around others unless I'm absolutely sure they have no problem with it (which means I rarely smoke around others).

[The Vinyl Ripper]

4. Consider yourself lucky..

If it were pot you liked rather than tobacco...

Then you would really have something to bitch about.

[DemGa]

5. Smoking and non- smoking bars

I think of the people who work at "smoking" bars. Yes, this is their choice, but still it is an unhealthy work environment: they may pay later for this decision perhaps made in haste or uninformed, and I don't think that is right.

As for smoking outside, I don't care either way. But sharing an enclosed space with smoking is way outdated.

[walldude]

6. Don't worry, the feds are about to price us out of smoking

with a 60 cent per pack tax increase. Add that to the 80 cents a pack increase we got last year in Colorado and I'm up to about 7 bucks a pack if I want to smoke organic American Spirits.. Time to give it up. Which really pisses me off because in spite of what non-smokers think, that last thing I wanted was to be forced to give it up.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. There are organic cigarettes????

:rofl:

The world's simply gone fucking bonkers!

[walldude]

12. Yup, and if you are a smoker and you switch you

will understand the need for them. I can't smoke a regular ciggy anymore. Too many chemicals. A couple of my friends who quit started by weaning themselves off of all the chemicals in regular smokes by switching to organics. They tell me it was much easier to quit once they were off the chemicals.

[AmyDeLune]

16. I had a class with someone in college who got the loose tobacco and

rolled her own. No one even knew she smoked until we saw her rolling one to take outside for the class break. Real tobacco doesn't stink like the chemical-laden commercial stuff. Sorry they're pricing you out of it.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. I was a smoker for 53 years. A heart attack in February made me a non smoker.

Quitting was way easier than I imagined it might be.

[walldude]

31. I bet it was after a heart attack. Damn dude.. I'm actually planning

on quitting myself, in the near future. I was living pretty badly. Eating crap foods drinking nothing but soda, not exercising. You know, the usual. In the last year I have managed to get my diet and exercise under control, smoking is next. One vice at a time...

[Withywindle]

20. I noticed that too.

I switched to American Spirits a year or so ago - I'll never go back. I used to get complaints from a neighbor in my old apartment building about the cigarette smell - a little while after I switched I saw her in the hallway and she asked if I quit, because the smell was all but gone!

I know the smell she means, now. I wasn't aware of it at the time.

[frustrated_lefty]

26. Thanks for that suggestion, the American Spirits brand.

Trying something new which may help is a nice idea.

The anti-smokers don't have a single thing worth listening to, imo. They certainly don't have anything constructive to put forth. The bloated, fattest among them should deal with their own issues before pointing a finger in any direction.

[walldude]

32. You'll see a difference right away. They are more expensive

by about a buck a pack but you'll smoke less and they burn twice as long. No chemicals to make them burn faster. Before Phillip Morris bought them out, you could leave one in an ashtray and it would go out, but they put a stop to that. If you look closely at a cigarette you'll see little black rings on the paper. That's gunpowder, put in to keep it burning if you put it down. All cigarettes use it. Now Spirits do too, and they get away with it because the chemical isn't in the tobacco but in the paper. All the chemicals are killing us more than the tobacco, chemicals in the paper, in the tobacco, in the butane you are inhaling when you use a lighter, or the sulfur when you use matches.

Sorry for the late reply, internet connection dropped off earlier..

[MLFerrell]

38. Dude, there is no gunpowder in cigarettes...

Google the following without the quotation marks: "gunpowder cigarettes"

Sixth link down on the first page, Yahoo answers. Best answer as chosen by asker.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060727184737AAprjMU

The rings aren't gun powder, the tobacco gets chemicals put in it so that it will burn longer. The rings are water marks so the cigarette paper burns evenly. Next time watch a cigarette burn, you can see the paper burn up to the ring until the burning tobacco catches up to it, then the paper will burn up to the next ring.





Dude from Yahoo Answers is spot-on correct.

I can tell you this from my own knowledge. Specifically, tobacco companies add potassium nitrate, one of the three ingredients of traditional black powder in order to facilitate constant burning.

Still, even the addition of KNO3 is a long, long way from adding freakin' GUNPOWDER. The more you know...

[LanternWaste]

70. I'm under the impression the lines merely keep the the burn consistent

I'm under the impression the lines merely keep the the burn consistent to prevent "runners" from occurring...

:shrug:

[blues90]

11. I smoke the america spirits too

They are a bit less than $5 a pack here . I have given up everything but cigs have been the most difficult of all and I have tried 10 times . I don't like being hooked and as you know this involves having to make extra stops when you are running out , it's like a ball and chain .

I don't smoke when I'm busy only when I have a break it's a relaxer , so then I ask all none smokers to give up their favorite crutch at break time , no soda or snack or candy bar and see how ell they do with that .

[LanternWaste]

69. For my part, I'm hoping they get priced out of my means...

For my part, I'm hoping they get priced out of my means of purchasing them (is that what you mean by "forced to give it up"?). Seems about the last, best chance I have of giving them up...

[trumad]

7. I'd say about once every 4 months, the smoking threads kick into high gear.

Someday I'll write all the rationalizations down of the poor smokers and write a book.

[TahitiNut]

65. I guess human beings like to have lepers - it's "catching" don't you know?

I grew up in the 40s and 50s. My maternal grandparents didn't smoke but 4 of their 5 kids smoked. My grandparents never complained and my uncle (and his wife) didn't either. I don't remember a SINGLE kid in the neighborhood or at school that had any reaction to smoke. None. Hell, I went to about 6 elementary schools and it never came up. My uncle and aunt had ashtrays for smokers even though they didn't smoke. No complaints. Never. People even dumped the ash on their carpets and then vacuumed them up ... claiming it "helped the carpet."

Now we have all these people who're forced to put one foot in the grave if they come within 25' of someone smoking. Amazing. We even have people claiming they're "allergic" - despite the fact that ETS has no allergens. Fantastic.

It's really handy to have a regressive tax that even liberals can embrace - and people to look down on. What oh what would we do without someone to hate?? What oh what would we do if we couldn't feel SUPERIOR to another person? Good Lord! After all, it's pointless to be a "better person" if we can't look at another and sneer, right?

:puke:

[azurnoir]

13. For smokers here

In my state (MN) took the 2bln from the smoking suit and used it to keep his "no new taxes" promise to the tax payers league, no not on health care or anything vaguely related. Not a dime went to antismoking or help quitting, then added a 75 cent tax a pack tax to cigarettes, in addition to that there will soon be a new federal tax, so the long and short of it is smokers are paying taxes through the nose to non-smokers who in turn whine about their "rights" and condemn smokers.
This includes and I saw it here neighbors who smoke in their own yards or houses, "well I can smell it" is the rationalization.
The fact is alcohol costs as much if not more in not only health care but law enforcement and social services. When was the last time you heard of someone smoking a few cigarettes and beating their spouse or child or causing a fatal car accident?
Will this happen? NO why? smokers are the "bad guys" du jour with the overweight soon to follow, there are a lot of nonsmokers who drink and cost everyone money, in fact I am willing to bet there are more drinkers then smokers at present which is why it will not happen.
In short if you smoke and someone bitches ask them to kindly get their fingers out of your wallet and then we'll talk.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

18. I'll just point out..

That the great majority of smokers drink alcohol as well..


Why else would people be crying about non smoking bars?

[azurnoir]

23. True enough

but a lot of nonsmokers drink, so if collecting tax revenue is the point then there is more to had from alcohol, but there would also be more protest without the self rightous edge.

[TahitiNut]

39. I go to bars and don't drink alcohol. I see nothing wrong with that.

:shrug:

[The Vinyl Ripper]

54. I don't see anything wrong with not drinking in a bar either..

If you can stand to be around a bunch of drunks when not drunk yourself, more power to you.

Unless I'm pretty lit myself, a very rare occurrence, I don't like being around drunks at all.

Jesse Ventura pretty well sums up my feelings about alcohol..

http://soundboard.com/sb/Jesse_Ventura_sound_clips.aspx

Click on "Alcohol vs Marijuana" to hear Jesse on a great rant.

[GeorgeGist]

15. You think you've got it tough...

just think what non-smokers would do without the revenues that cigarette taxes generate. Did you know that in most states, the total tax on cigarettes (federal, state, and local) is more than the total profit to the producers, wholesalers and retailers!

[The Vinyl Ripper]

19. Given the fact that marijuana is the top cash crop in the nation..

Just look at all the tax revenues given up by straights just so they can keep putting dopers in jail.

[msmcghee]

22. All the points you bring up, including smoking . .

. . are part of the ongoing discussion of balancing of the rights of citizens in a free democracy.

It is ongoing because science, medicine, social norms change with time and what was common before can become frowned upon. That's what happened to smoking. Science and medicine discovered how damaging smoking is to individuals - and as health insurance costs including Medicare have shot up - taxpayers started considering how much we pay as a society for a personal indulgence that has no utility - except as a profit engine for tobacco companies and their distributors.

Yes, car exhaust is obnoxious. OTOH several million people depend on a vehicle every day for necessary tasks - like getting to work and back. So, society provides some slack there - while it demands that the cost to society is reduced over a reasonable amt of time.

I'm afraid you were just unlucky enough to pick up an addiction that now turns out to be seen as smelly, obnoxious, messy and costly to society. No-one ever promised that life would be easy. It's a bummer for you but count your blessings too.

[azurnoir]

24. So in your mind a "free democrasy"

means pleasing you, because you have the popular "good guy" I don't smoke superiority?
As I pointed put alcohol costs society far more then cigarettes and not in just the health arena, but it will never have additional taxes added, again because it would then cost the so called "superior good guy group"

on edit: Minneapolis has a no smoking in bars and restaurant ordinance, this includes out door cafes and bars. Now in downtown Minneapolis one of the most popular spots for these outdoor cahes is the Nicollet Mall, where daaly and especially at rush hour there are city busses at times ten to twelve end to end that put out huge amounts of exhaust so much that piles of soot are swept up daily, and I do mean LARGE so really what good is a no smoking law doing here except allowing some to feel that they're getting their way.

[msmcghee]

34. You didn't get my point.

I don't have anything against the act of smoking. I even kind of like the smell of smoke - outdoors and not in my face. OTOH I don't like being forced to inhale someone else's exhaled smoke in a confined place - especially in a restaurant or coffee shop. I also don't like butts strewn on the sidewalks of city streets and the grass of city parks. And I don't like paying higher taxes to support health care costs for people who made an unhealthy choice.

Some of your post was pretty funny - like the port where you implied that smokers don't consume alcohol.

The buses do leave a mess but society seems to think (and science backs them up) that buses that take many people to school and work and shopping are a better way to go than individual cars. (Lower cost to society per passenger mile.) So cars are discouraged in cities and bus ridership is encouraged. That's how these things work. You may disagree but no-one's rights are being trampled upon. You can elect a councilperson or state rep to change the law to allow smoking everywhere and eliminate the buses so everyone walks, bikes or drives a car around - if there's enough of you. It's called democracy - with a "c".

[azurnoir]

37. Thanx for the spelling correction

My point however was that if you total the number of people who consume alcohol it would be greater then the number of people that smoke, which does not say smokers do not drink. As another poster here pointed out is that about 25% of adults are carrying the tax burden for insurance on everyone, and have been blamed for the rise in health care costs, this is a gross over simplification at best, and has made smokers into a targeted minority group and one that has the very self righteous approval of the majority Which makes sense because nonsmokers with kids can now make smokers without foot the health bill for their families. When that one loses steam overweight people will be next, the opening volleys are being made already.

[bbgrunt]

25. your statement:

that smoking "is a personal indulgence that has no utility" is personal opinion that has is obviously without basis. Why would anyone indulge themselves if it did not give them utility? Why did native Americans smoke tobacco before there were tobacco companies?

[msmcghee]

35. Try reading my post befiore commenting.

I said, " . . taxpayers started considering how much we pay as a society for a personal indulgence that has no utility."

That means the utility to society - not to the smoker who obviously derives pleasure from it - and AFAIK pleasure is a utility. Or perhaps you can explain just what utility smoking has for society if you disagree.

[bbgrunt]

55. what is social utility if not the amalgamation of individual utilities?

[TahitiNut]

41. Health care costs have gone up - but NOT because people have gotten unhealthier!

Red herring!

How about we don't spread the myths that big pharma and insurance companies use to rip off people, huh?

[Warren DeMontague]

45. I'm not a smoker, I think it's perfectly legit for states, etc. to ban indoor public smoking.. BUT..

YOUR "necessity" or "lifestyle choice" may be MY "personal indulgence". Balancing the rights of citizens in a free society? What you're talking about is making lists of "sins" that some people don't like and so other people don't get to indulge in them. But EVERYONE makes bad choices, sometimes. Non-smokers may eat a lot of fatty food. There are folks who don't drink but have sex with a lot of semi-anonymous partners. Health nuts may ride motorcycles in the rain, like Billy Joel. All these things could end up "costing" "the rest of us". Either we play this never-ending game of "you pay for me, but I don't pay for you" or we accept that under a SPHC system we may end up paying for the consequences of behavior we personally, may not agree with, but in the end we cover everyone because that's what we do (and that's what we end up doing, anyway) and because in the long run, a SPHC system will save us money.

That doesn't mean we can't spend money on prevention, education, treatment on demand. We currently piss away $40 Billion dollars a year (not including the costs of incarceration) on a "drug war" that has as its primary focus keeping people from smoking a relatively benign plant. I don't have a problem with taxing cigarettes, taxing alcohol, hell, legalize and tax pot too-- which would be a massive net gain, because along with cutting the wasteful "drug war" budget, as the number one cash crop in the country it would bring billions of dollars in, and it doesn't incur anything close to the health and social costs alcohol does.

Look, my dad died of lung cancer from smoking- I know cigarettes are deadly and terrible. And I think it's reasonable to limit where people can smoke them. But this nanny state game of trying to tell consenting adults what they can or can't do with their own bodies... it's a waste of time and money. We, as a society, need to grow the fuck up.

[Terri S]

27. Walking down the street in Manhattan one day...

a jogger yelled 'lung cancer' at a smoker walking by. I couldn't tell if he was warning her or wishing it on her. In any case, I had to laugh when a bus spewed a huge cloud of black exhaust on him at the corner.

[Raejeanowl]

60. Hysteria

It's very easy to target an individual, you know. You can't or won't do much about your own exhaust pipe, or the thousands of other unseen particles you breathe in every day, but you can insult and harass people one at a time when they're out there with the telltale smoldering stick in their hand. What did the roadrunner say to the bus?

This reminds me of an incident I experienced back in the late 80s or early 90s when I was still smoking. My husband and I stopped in our travels somewhere in Virginia at a well-know fast food emporium. In those days, they had smoking sections and many municipalities had specific ventilation system requirements for those dining rooms.

I sat in an section where a "Smoking Area" sign was prominently posted, and because there was a family with two young children on the other side of the room, I asked a circulating staff person to be absolutely certain that I was in the correct place. I was not insensitive to the courtesy aspect of keeping my sidestream smoke under control, but it was not busy at the time and there were ample seats in the non-smoking section. This group had by all appearances elected to sit there.

When I did eventually light up, the mother became upset, picked up her toddler, and said to her husband, "I'm not going to sit here while she smokes around MY BABY!" got up and left her spouse (who was trying to calm her outburst) and preschooler at their table.

A few minutes later, I looked out the front window into the parking lot to see this same mother, sitting in the sliding-door side of her mini-van, balancing the toddler on her lap and feeding him from a jar.

She choose to perform this dramatic act of defiant heroism no more than 20 feet from a busy, six-lane, truck-choked state highway in preference to occupying a ventilated smoking area, across the room from my single cigarette. And she left her husband and older child there to survive on their own.

I might have laughed as you did, except that the depth of this kind of unreasoning hysteria stuns me to this day.

[sandnsea]

28. 25% can't buy health care for the rest

I agree with you and I think Democrats are making a huge mistake by continually raising cigarette taxes. Not only has cigarette tax money gone to all sorts of crazy things besides health, where did the tobacco company money go?

[dropkickpa]

77. Oh yeah

Some of that settlement money keeps my department afloat (and it's a NICE chunk we get). Tobacco settlement money runs out in 2 years, at which point we'll be consolidating with another group (they get tobacco $$ too, so no merge till it's all gone). I think *some* of it might have gone towards smoking research, but doubt more than a tiny fraction.

[TahitiNut]

84. It's the regressive tax (so-called) liberals can love ... at least the "holier-than-thou" types.

But I sure don't regard such an attitude as "liberal" ... not by a long shot.

[blues90]

29. Someone brought up over weight people here .

This is next and we already see it being talked about . it's an addiction brought on by what society is sold or a result of the family activity .

I was not influenced by adds but rather my entire family smoked except for my mother and most of my friends and their parents smoked . I didn't start until I was 21 and not because of the law but because until then I had no desire .

But you watch the next set of people who are the bad guys will be the over weight people .

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Warren DeMontague]

43. Jesus, that sounds ominous.

And I don't even smoke.

[Romulox]

40. I smoked for 14 years

As many as 3 packs/day, but I averaged about 2. I quit 5 years ago, but I try not to be one of those ex-smokers...

But I gotta tell you, as a smoker, you don't understand how offensive and disgusting your smoke is. Smoking destroys your sense of smell and taste. "Smoking outside" is still offensive if you are congregating directly outside of doors and entranceways. Do you realize how much it sucks for a non-smoker to have to walk through a gauntlet of smokers circling around the entrance to an office building or restaurant in a freshly cleaned suit?

[Katherine Brengle]

49. Agreed - the smell of smoke never bothered me until I quit.

[lastliberalintexas]

59. That's true, and people who smoke just won't get that

The smell of tobacco might be ok without all the toxic chemicals which are added by US companies for their addictive properties. But the majority of cigarettes in this country smell absolutely foul and rancid, there really is just no other way to describe them. I think if smokers could smell themselves, they might be a little more understanding of the non-smokers' complaints and ready to quit. Maybe there is a specific chemical added to dull the sense of smell, in addition to those which are added for addictive properties.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. The law in California regarding smoking in indoor public places isn't going to change.

Fortunately, we have pretty nice weather year round, so the complaints of people "oppressed" by having to step out to the curb to light up ring a little hollow. Meanwhile, cancer patients who want to smoke pot in the privacy of their own homes to ease the pain of chemo are dragged off to prison by riot gear clad DEA agents carrying assault weapons. What was that about cigarette smokers being "oppressed", again?

For the record, I think noise ordinances should be enforced, too- not only against loud car stereos but also against ridiculously loud straight pipe "chopper" motorcycles, which somehow are exempt from ANY noise statutes at all.. or so it seems.

And I think leaving the smoking bans to indoor, enclosed public places is plenty. Outside should be another story, although it also sucks when smokers use our public beaches and parks as ashtrays (particularly during fire season.. duh.)

Also, I don't know where ALL the cig taxes went, but I do know some of them went to California's very successful First 5 Program. They do some really good work, if helping little kids of all incomes and backgrounds is meaningful to you.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

58. Thanks for saying that..

So I don't have to.

I've noticed the hypocrisy with loud pipes on bikes too.. If you have a Harley it can sound like a quick firing cannon and the cops don't seem to care.

On the other hand if you have a loud pipe on a crotch rocket it's an almost automatic ticket.

And don't get me started on oppression and pot versus tobacco. :D

Here's what Jesse Ventura had to say about it.

http://soundboard.com/sb/Jesse_Ventura_sound_clips.aspx

[TheFarseer]

52. I just love this issue because

Republicans blame Democrats for smoking/stopping them from smoking and Democrats blame Republicans for smoking/stopping them from smoking. It confuses the sh*t right out of the partisan loudmouths.

[Raejeanowl]

53. Former Smoker Here

And I have totally empathy with your thoughts about what's happening. There's bucketloads of hypocrisy and targeting, and it's going to continue as long as we allow it. The tobacco settlements of the 1990s were the first volley in this opportunistic and fraudulent "race for the gold."

As long as governments can continue to raise revenue from the cash cow of this addiction, without having to take ethical responsibility for the public health issue (and spend the revenue directly on helping smokers to quit and tobacco to be regulated and ultimately removed from the American marketplace), we will continue down this slope where the use of a legal product has been quasi-criminalized, and the major penalty is inflicted upon the victim by the complicit government partner in the original victimization.

[Colorado Progressive]

57. The bans are overimposing and asinine...

living in Denver and breathing the air is the equivalent of smoking a pack a day, which is why I moved away. There were no bans on driving, or mandatory public transit laws. Just the smokers were banned from everywhere, as if all air pollution was their fault. Just another load of shit on the American people taking away our freedoms, bit by bit. Soon it will probably be illegal to smoke, and they will create another dangerous black market.

I am glad I quit smoking for my health and pocketbook, but these smoking bans are so retarded its just embarrassing.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

61. My mother damaged my lungs by smoking when I was a little kid.

Smoking bans are NOT retarded. If I am around a smoker I will get sick with a sinus infection and bronchitis within TWO DAYS, tops.

Why can't people who smoke and want to go to a no-smoking place chew nicotine gum or wear a patch, or suck on one of those inhalers and not make the rest of us smelly and sick????

[RamboLiberal]

79. Sorry - I can give you no sympathy

I grew up with both parents who smoked in the house - hated it even as a kid. Best thing that happened in my opinion was the move to no-smoking in workplaces. I worked from 71-95 in buildings where smoking was allowed and I found the smokers had very little sympathy for those of us coughing and choking from the habit. They'd even light up at the lunch table while the rest of us were eating. I took to eating at my desk though I wasn't supposed to.

Loved that airlines went completely non-smoking. Flew when they had separate sections. Yeah, didn't matter much if you got seated one row in front of the smoking section. And you sure could tell when the non-smoking light went out - there went the air quality.

Great when restaurants had non-smoking sections. And I watched over the years as they went from the smallest section to the largest. Problem was there were restaurants who didn't separate the sections adequately so in some restaurants you still ended up smelling the smoke. Sorry, but I hate smoke with my meal.

Still can't go to most bars in my state w/o putting up with the smoke. Hope PA catches up soon and bans smoking in bars as well. We almost did it but the idiot state senate wanted to really water down the bill.

I also see this as a workplace issue protecting workers who don't smoke.

You can still smoke outside and in your home. And I think the argument that the air is polluted is a false argument. Let's take care of the indoor air and work on cleaning up the outdoor air as well. Both need to be done.

With all the knowledge of what smoking can do to your health, and with the high cost of the habit, I still can't figure out why people smoke. Nicotine and other ingredients must be damn addictive!

[high density]

85. I like tasting my food

Smoking bans in restaurants are the best thing ever.