Suppose we weren't talking about Porn

[Tsiyu]

but instead, we were discussing some other legal adult activity.

Maybe beer drinking.

Suppose we start a thread on beer-drinking and its related issues:



OP: I am sick of beer drinkers! They ruin their livers, they waste their money on a substance that makes them forget who they are, they stink.

Alcohol abuse ruins a lot of lives and a lot of families. I wish people would be more responsible when they choose to drink. I am tired of so much beer drinking.


A: Why do you hate people who drink beer?

OP: Where did I say I hate people who drink beer? I said I was SICK of people who drink beer. My cousin just left here drunk off his ass. He broke my favorite iced tea pitcher.

A: You have issues. What adults do with their own bodies is their own business.

OP: I never said it wasn't. But don't you think we as a society might want to look at the harmful effects of beer drinking?

A: You just want to go back to Prohibition. Get some therapy.




I mean, can't we - as alleged ADULTS - agree that, even though we would like beer drinking to remain legal it does cause a lot of damage in our society?

Can we agree that we should have rules in place governing who can drink and how much one should drink before driving?

Can we agree that a parent who drinks excessively perhaps should not have custody of a small child?

Can we agree with advocating programs to help those addicted to beer?

Do you agree that talking about these problems we might have with beer - rather than shaming the person who complains about the problems we have with beer - is healthy and a benefit to us as a society?

If you can discuss the PROBLEMS associated with beer without feeling threatened, why can some of you not discuss the problems with porn?

I see two distinct groups here who are vehemently at odds with each other. But in the logic department, those who dislike porn are winning. Why? Because the people who are defending porn at any and all cost just seem like those who defend * at any and all cost. None of you can, for even a moment, admit that there IS damage done by some porn.

And that's just koolaid drinking territory there. The same as it would be if you claimed there are absolutely no problems associated with beer drinking.

One of the marks of a GROWNUP is that they SEE and ACKNOWLEDGE reality.


You will NEVER get some people to LIKE porn. You can play Dr. Frist all day on these boards and diagnose everyone who dislikes porn by saying they "hate men" or they "don't like sex" but you will STILL not shame these people into accepting that porn is merely a harmless recreational aid for lonely people.

And it isn't about their mental health or your rights. It's about the fact that there IS abuse and exploitation in the porn industry, there IS an "anything goes" attitude that is frightening given that we live in the age of abu ghraib.

I guess that's another nice analogy.

You can say you get sexually aroused watching films of actors pretending to be soldiers torturing prisoners. You can say it's your right to purchase and watch those films and you will give up your torture films when I can pry them from your cold dead hands.

Well, I will not be petitioning the legislature to make your torture flicks illegal.

But I am going to say you are some kind of sick fuck, and no Dr. Fristy diagnosis is gonna help you with your own sickness. Something isn't right in your upstairs if that's what gets you off.

And how do you know those are actors and not real footage from Guantanamo? Doesn't matter! Anything goes!

Not for me.

There are problems with porn but they will never be solved by those who use porn. That's the sad thing I now realize reading these threads.

[mike_c]

1. interesting comments....

They make me glad I avoided all of those porn threads!

[Tsiyu]

6. I've read a few and just winced

It's like taking a trip through LaLa land

so smart of you to steer clear. :)

[JVS]

2. smokers

:hide:

[The Straight Story]

4. I smoke, drink, and sometimes watch porn. I am so screwn

:rofl:

[Tsiyu]

7. I smoke, drink and sometimes look at erotic photography

and art.

But I know smoking and drinking and erotic art looking are best done in moderation.

And I definitely don't get upset when folks remind me that they hate my smoking even though I find this annoying. I don't call them names or try to tell them they are mentally ill.....know what I mean?

[The Straight Story]

12. Well you are mentally ill, I mean look at your username

You think you are a ghost! :rofl:

Seriously though - I DO think people should discuss issues without all the name calling.

[Tsiyu]

15. Yeah, well

you're a homophobe! "The Straight Story" indeed! What kind of hetero subliminal messages are you trying to send here!


I agree, the name-calling and Keyboard Psychiatry is out of hand....

[youthere]

68. as long as you don't eat at the Olive Garden or breastfeed pitbulls.

[Tsiyu]

8. You!

:spank:

[The Straight Story]

3. Is the problem with the beer - or with the beer drinker? Which needs fixed?

:)

[Tsiyu]

10. Depends on the beer

and the drinker....:beer:

But we'll never know if we can't even talk about it for fear of offending the alcoholics!

[The Straight Story]

16. I think the problem is HOW something is discussed and the approach

Starting a thread claiming that porn is demeaning to women is sort of a large blanket.

Hell, I could start one saying it takes advantage of men because they cannot help but want to watch it and women know they can make money off the weakness of men, and hence men are exploited :)

I am sure THAT would get some nasty replies....

To me it might be easier to discuss it like "How do we as liberals decide when porn is exploitive and how do we make the industry better so that it can serve the need for it without exploiting people?" instead of making it seem that all porn is bad and exploitive.

Porn is not the only industry we could discuss of course, but that is topic du jour :)

[mondo joe]

20. Indeed. And the pro-choice posters have said many times that the best way to ensure people

AREN'T exploited in porn is to normalize it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

37. Porn has been normalized

And yet the exploitation continues. The pornographic images get more extreme, and the boundaries of what is considered "normal" sexuality are pushed further. Young women I know tell me that their boyfriends expect them to comply with what is portrayed in porn movies, vis a vis grooming and surgical enhancement, and sex acts. My b/f's daughter confided in me that her boyfriend thinks she should shave, get breast implants, and have anal sex with him. Where do you think those demands came from?

Sorry, but I don't think modern mainstream porn should be the norm when it comes to sexual interaction between real persons. Because it really seems to suck for women.

[mondo joe]

41. Oh not - not at all.

While porn occupies a gray area, it is susceptible to exploitation in ways that other, normalized industries are not.

Diminish the stigma and hypocrisy around it, and apply reasonable labor and safety standards. THAT is normalization.

"Sorry, but I don't think modern mainstream porn should be the norm when it comes to sexual interaction between real persons. Because it really seems to suck for women."

Women aren't the only people in porn. There is a thriving gay male porn industry.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

58. If labor and safety standards are what you are talking about, then fine. n/t

[BuddhaGirl]

57. uh, I think anal sex and "grooming" habits

have been around before porn.

And what is "normal?" You may not think anal sex or a shaved p*ssy is normal, but many do. Nothing wrong with that!

Our society is so puritanical...such a shame :-(

[mrreowwr_kittty]

60. Uh, what if you don't want to do those things?

I'm glad you're not advising my b/f's daughter. "Oh now, stop being so puritanical and do what your boyfriend wants!"

BTW, I don't appreciate you making assumptions about what I think is normal. And bag the 'puritanical' bullshit. I'm finding it real fucking tiresome to be accused of prudery because I criticize the porn industry for basically co-opting sex in our society and remaking what is a healthy and enjoyable activity between consenting people into this homogenized dreck that they sell back to us, whether we want it or not.

There's nothing wrong with shaving or anal sex, per se. What's wrong is when they become standardized expectations and young women are pressured into complying by the media and the clueless gits they are dating. Here's a lovely article from a popular men's magazine, describing how all the cool guys are cajoling anal sex from their partners these days. Note this particularly piquant quote, from a young chap "Ideally, every girl is a disgusting pig who wants it," he says. "But only with you." Gee, where do you suppose a sentiment like that comes from? Porn, maybe?

Read the Details article so you can learn about how some of today's fine upstanding young men think about their female partners. I have a nagging feeling you will focus on the one or two positive or neutral statements so that you can ignore all the horrifically misogynistic ones. So when you are done read more about the subject at my fave radfem blog.

http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2007/07/15/anal-is-the-new-third-base/

[unpossibles]

64. but she is not advising your b/f's daughter

teens will be asked to do many things which they should not do, and it is up to how they are raised to be able to tell the difference between good and bad. It sounds like this girl just needs to find some guy that's not a selfish jerk, and frankly he was most likely a jerk before he discovered porn.

I enjoy porn. not most porn - I don't care for fake boobs, or the plastic look, etc. - but I take offense that I am being equated to someone who sounds like they are an a**hole. I have said to any partner that they need to ______ to make me happy. EVER. It's up to them what they do with their bodies, and I would not tolerate someone giving me an ultimatum either. If someone asked me nicely or hinted that something turned them on, I may consider it, but the choice is ultimately up to me.

So to say that everyone who watches porn is a jerk and that porn is the cause of people being selfish prigs is quite insulting. I respect my partners and their choices and I expect the same respect from them. Period. And I am sick and tired of being equated to molesters or sick people or any other "deviants" because of something I choose to do in private.

Tell your b/f's daughter to find a real boyfriend. Porn is not the problem with that guy. I doubt he respects women regardless of porn, although I will agree that maybe it doesn't help - but it's not the sole cause.

[BuddhaGirl]

65. if you "don't want to do those things"

then don't do them. I made not assumptions about you, I merely ask you just realize that what is "normal" to you is your own opinion. If your b/f's daughter doesn't want to do them for her b/f then she should just say no.

Shaved p*ssy's, s&m, anal sex etc. etc. etc. is more prevalent IMO is because society is becoming, thank god, more relaxed about sex. To some, that is "normal" for them.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

75. I'm guessing you didn't read the Details article

Because it describes guys "demanding" anal sex from their partners, and pressuring them for it if they don't give in right away. One guy admits to plying it out of women who are intoxicated.

Maybe you choose to believe that shaving, anal sex, and s&m are more prevalent today simply because of a more relaxed attitude toward sex. To a certain extent, that may be true and I welcome it. But I'm having a reeeeeeally hard time believing that all these young women, just coincidentally, happen to find the same things (shaving, anal, etc.) appealing. Especially when some of them admit that they don't, but they do it for their partners.

And "normal" has nothing to do with it.

[mondo joe]

87. I assure you, the porn industry did not invent anal sex, or any of those other things. Your

reasoning is as lame as people who think seeing gay people MAKES kids gay.

Porn didn't invent ANY of those things - they're popular in porn because they appeal to some people.

As the father of two daughters, my most grave concern is not that they'll have some sort of sex, but that they'll do it because they're pressured into it. But that's not an invention of porn either. People have always pressured each other to do things they don't want to do.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

89. And you have daughters too. OMFG.

I weep for them.

[mondo joe]

91. Weep for yourself. My daughters won't walk around thinking they're victims

and living in fear of men.

[mondo joe]

69. If you don't want to do those things, don't do them. If your partner insists or

pressures you, dump him or her.

Every relationship is a negotiation of different wants, and sometimes thy are incompatible.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

76. Some people can't leave their partners for financial reasons

Others may be in an emotionally vulnerable position, being young, or coming from an abusive background where they didn't learn to establish healthy boundaries. When people like that are in relationships with partners who think that porn is a primer for sex, the results can be awful. Personally, I was well into my 30s before I realized that I was allowed to ask for what I wanted, or say no to my partner where sex was concerned. I am not atypical in that. Many women my age, from all types of backgrounds, report the same experience. That is why I believe, as a feminist, that C-R-I-T-I-C-I-S-M of the gawdawful crap that is most mainstream porn is in order. Read the Details article and realize that this is what young hetero women today are dealing with.

[mondo joe]

86. That's a VERY unfortunate situation. But porn is not the cause of it.

And if you're partnered with a loser asshole, that's not because of porn either.

Young hetero women always have to deal with assholes. All the more reason to affirm, again and again, that their body is THEIRS.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

88. WHO THE FUCK SAID PORN CAUSED IT?!?

:banghead:

This is clearly a waste of my valuable time. Buh bye.

[mondo joe]

92. You did.

"When people like that are in relationships with partners who think that porn is a primer for sex, the results can be awful."

"Young women I know tell me that their boyfriends expect them to comply with what is portrayed in porn movies, vis a vis grooming and surgical enhancement, and sex acts. My b/f's daughter confided in me that her boyfriend thinks she should shave, get breast implants, and have anal sex with him. Where do you think those demands came from?"

Use some of your valuable time to keep track of the crap you spew.

[The Straight Story]

63. The fundies think normal is a man and woman in missionary position

Normal is relative to the individual. As a group we have defined illegal (kiddie porn as an example - as kids are not capable of making decisions about their life in such manners and are easily manipulated and so on).

But normal to some is not to others.

Again, not saying we cannot look at the effects of such things and rationally discuss them of course, but what affects one person in the negative may not another - and what do we do in such cases where consenting adults are involved in making their own choices about what to do an watch?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

85. I have no interest in interfering with consenting adults in freely chosen activities

I do have an interest in pointing out the noticeable affects to social and sexual interaction wrought by a hugely popular, and increasingly widespread, form of entertainment that many people regard as harmless and benign.

Here's a good analogy: I may think the food at McDonalds is unhealthy and people should avoid it and make better eating choices. That does not mean that I'm anti-food, or that I oppose people making their own choices about where to eat, even if that means they still eat at McDonalds. Wanting people to be fully informed about what they put in their bodies, and to counteract the propaganda put out by McDonalds that their food is "healthy", is not telling them they can't eat at McDonalds.

[Nikia]

82. It also seems to be a way that young men learn about sex

I dated a couple of young men who watched porn before becoming sexually active and seemed to be following some kind of porn script.
They genuinely did not understand that porn wasn't necessarily reflective of real life.
Since porn is more prevelent now and real human interactions are a little less, I think that this is becoming more common for young people.

[gollygee]

42. Please stop co-opting the phrase "pro-choice"

that phrase has a political definition and it is not related to porn.

[mondo joe]

45. I'm pro-choice about what people choose to do with their own bodies.

If you don't like it, tough.

[gollygee]

46. Pro-choice has a political definition

it is specific to women's reproductive rights. It is dismissive of that struggle for you to use it in this way, and you are doing it in an attempt to silence women who disagree with you.

[mondo joe]

47. You can get used to it oor put me on ignore. Those are your choices.

I've spent my whole adult life supporting reproductive choice because I think privacy and autonomy over one's own body is paramount. I support the right of men and women to use their own bodies to make porn for the same reason.

Furthermore I don't have the power to silence anyone. And neither do you.

[unpossibles]

50. I would say the same rights allow women (and men)

to make porn if they choose to.

[gollygee]

53. The phrase "Pro-Choice" has a specific political definition for women's civil rights

To turn that phrase around in an attempt to dismiss women is wrong, and it trivializes women's struggle for reproductive rights.

[unpossibles]

55. so a woman's civil rights do not include the decision to do what they want with their own bodies?

that's kind of what it sounds like you're saying.

I know what you mean as far as what the term has come to mean, but I still think this applies. How does it dismiss women for me or anyone else to say they also have the right to choose what profession/hobby/whatever they want, especially if it involves their own bodies.

You don't have to like porn to see what I mean. I don't like football, but I'm not trying to say we should ban it, yet I would say an equal number of men are addicted to it, if not more.

[gollygee]

56. It isn't your place to determine what a women's civil rights include

but women are split on the issue of porn. I don't think anyone doesn't agree that women have a right to work in any legal industry if they choose to. Since none of us in the thread have argued that women shouldn't be allowed to act in porn if they choose to, you can't be using it to distinguish yourselves from us on that point anyway. What we have said is that the existence of porn, particularly "gonzo" porn, is not empowering for women as a group. That does not mean that specific women should not be allowed to act in it if they want to.

Within women's rights, the phrase "Pro-Choice" has a specific meaning that is agreed upon within that group. To turn it around on women in an attempt to dismiss them is wrong and trivializes the issue that we use that phrase for.

[unpossibles]

62. it's not anyone's place to determine what anyone else's rights are. period

it's not your right to say what other women do either, quite frankly.

Look, I apologize because I am not trying to start some flame war. I am staunchly pro-choice and pro equal rights for everyone. Just because I am a man doesn't mean that I am not an ally. The larger issue of Pro Choice - the one on which Roe v. Wade was won - was privacy, even though it pertained to abortion and reproduction rights.

And for the record, I don't like gonzo porn either, AND I agree it's degrading in several ways, but what I think doesn't matter any further than me not supporting/purchasing it as long as consenting adults are involved. Period.

Perhaps we just need to disagree and get on with it. Again, I am sorry if you think I am being mean, insensitive, or co-opting the phrase "pro choice" but how is that different from the phrase "equal rights" being applied to gender, race, and later to sexual orientation? In my opinion, in both cases the words - and the logic behind them - apply.

[gollygee]

66. Did you read what I wrote?

"I don't think anyone doesn't agree that women have a right to work in any legal industry if they choose to. Since none of us in the thread have argued that women shouldn't be allowed to act in porn if they choose to, you can't be using it to distinguish yourselves from us on that point anyway. What we have said is that the existence of porn, particularly "gonzo" porn, is not empowering for women as a group. That does not mean that specific women should not be allowed to act in it if they want to."

Please read that again. AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN I never said women shouldn't be able to work in porn if they don't want to. None of us in the other thread who disagreed with you said that. So you and Mondo Joe using that phrase as a way to distinguish yourselves from me and those who agree with me about porn is disingenuous, and is also an attempt to make us stop talking about this. You are using our slogan about a right very important to us as women against us.

What I meant in the subject line is that women collectively decide what rights are important to us. What rights men think should be important to us is not relevant. Women disagree about what porn means to women. I don't presume to speak for all women. Of course different women feel differently, but only women, including those who are fans of porn and work in porn, get to speak for what civil rights are important to women.

The phrase "Pro-Choice" has always meant one thing and one thing alone politically - it is a slogan to oppose the phrase "Pro-Life" so that we aren't defined as "pro-death" or "pro-abortion". The phrase "equal rights" has not been clearly associated with one particular right or one particular group of people. Try googling "equal rights" and "Pro-Choice" and you'll see the difference. Or look it up in the dictionary. "Equal Rights" doesn't have a clear definition. Pro-Choice does. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=Pro-choice

[hedgehog]

72. And the rich, just as much as the poor, are banned from sleeping in the park nt

[Lilith Velkor]

80. My reproductive rights mean nothing if I don't have a choice with the rest of my body

The assertion, "Of course women should be allowed to be in porn" rings hollow when it is also asserted that "the existence of porn is disempowering to all women."

It's kinda like saying, "This is a free country, so you're allowed to be a pinko liberal terrorist sympathizer who hates America."

Hol-LOW.

[Tsiyu]

21. Well, I think we start from where that person who posts starts

trusting that they have reached their own conclusions based on their own life experience.

You have to take the time to determine what the person is trying to say. But here on DU when it comes to some issues (like porn) we cannot discuss the nuances of the issue because we have that group that refuses to say anything except

PORN! MINE! MY PRECIOUS! Like Gollum all freaked out and clutching their DVD's for Christ's sake.

There seems to be this paranoid delusion ( now I'M Dr. Fristin'!!!!) that saying anything negative about porn = making porn illegal. It's really bizarre how fearful some are of this.

You can criticize books without anyone fearing a ban on books; you can run down the crappy plots and propaganda in movies without anyone thinking you're into censorship; you can blast the fashion industry or any other industry for their products, content, advertising, marketing, business practices and you won't get accused of ending Western Civilization as we know it.

But say ONE negative thing about the porn industry and suddenly you are an uptight prude who hasn't had sex in fifteen years and you hate freedom....and you are going to TAKE AWAY OUR PORN.

It just seems so childish to have to wade through so many posts like that to get to any substantive discussion....

[The Straight Story]

24. I think though we have a disconnect here that might explain it

We all agree that people forced into porn, for example is bad.
We all agree that what people do in the privacy of their bedroom is their business (assuming it is legal, not forced, etc and so on) - how people get their jollies is up to them.

Some people do it with a camera on, and people who like what they are doing (bdsm etc) like to watch it.

Again, I think mostly we agree there.

The issues seems to be - is it bad for women (ie, does it makes us value them less, does it spread a message that women are just sex objects, and so on)? IF someone believes it IS bad for women than it follows in the minds of others that said people want it gone or only to be a certain kind of porn.

Which is where we get the flame wars imho. We are a big tent, with varied tastes, and some of us have engaged in some pretty kinky sex and it seems almost as if we are being told we are bad for that, or that we objectify women - or are so weak minded that seeing such porn will make us treat others poorly.

Maybe I am wrong in all this, but that is where I am seeing one disconnect.

[Tsiyu]

29. Shame certainly does play into any discussion of sex

We are a strange society here in America. Lots of innuendo and very few facts.

I think we are on the same page but I think the disconnect comes from the issues being viewed in a different light based on experiences.

I think as an adult I can recognize that to wounded Vets, the purple bandaids they mockingly wore at the RNC to make fun of Kerry's medals were the utmost offense. It minimized the real pain of those wounded in combat.

To those who have been victimized sexually, porn that portrays gang rape and torture as "entertainment" are equally as offensive, and whether you get off on this porn or not or whether or not you think it should be legal or not, you will NEVER get those people to understand the "benefit" of violent, demeaning porn.

There is also something called the real world. In the real world, would you want your daugher to be a porn star? Why or why not?

Shame is a big factor, but then, if people are exploiting others they SHOULD be ashamed. And we should do all in our power to call them out. We should not shame the people who are bold enough to say "yes, you like your porn but there is serious abuse in that industry."

[The Straight Story]

33. Funny you should mention that:

"There is also something called the real world. In the real world, would you want your daugher to be a porn star? Why or why not?"

I almost started a thread tonight discussing that. My daughter is 6 btw.

The key word here is 'want'. No, I don't WANT her to - I think she has a lot more to offer the world than sex in a video to get someone off.

But if she CHOSE that as a career, I would stand by her and gladly be there when she won an oscar :)

She has her own life and her own choices to make, and as her dad I won't try to run her life until I am in the grave.

"To those who have been victimized sexually, porn that portrays gang rape and torture as "entertainment" are equally as offensive, and whether you get off on this porn or not or whether or not you think it should be legal or not, you will NEVER get those people to understand the "benefit" of violent, demeaning porn."

And there is rub - you won't ever not make something that does not offend someone. We cannot base out art, our film, writings, etc on whether or not some will understand it or not. Some won't and never will, should we base what we all do on how it affects others emotionally?

When my mom died, I had issues watching shows, or even the news, where someone died. I hated to see movies where people were intentionally killed (like horror movies) because it pained me to no end - death was horrid and final I could not even enjoy the movies I once did.

I still felt though other people had the right to enjoy them, I just chose not to at the time.

I finally got over that pain and am back to enjoying things and know that they are just movies.

If I don't like something though, or the idea of something in a movie, I don't watch it. If others do, that is up to them to decide.

[Tsiyu]

39. Okay

"The key word here is 'want'. No, I don't WANT her to - I think she has a lot more to offer the world than sex in a video to get someone off."

But what more is there? Really?

Are you saying that making "sex in a video to get someone off" is on the low end of the spectrum as it relates to what we can offer society? Why?

And as for not liking the topics of certain movies, no one here would tell you you are mentally ill because you didn't enjoy movies about death.

All it takes is some understanding to see WHY some people hate degrading, violent porn, and allowing them the opportunity to express WHY they hate it.

And it also is not going to hurt any one of us to examine our prejudices, stereotypes etc and how we relate to others.

Our society is not hurt by people discussing violent and degrading porn and what thay says about us as a society. Can someone, anyone explain to me HOW it hurts us to allow people to discuss how porn might impact them? Is it really so SCAWWWY for some people to find out that some people disagree with them?

We are only hurt by those who say, "I don't care so don't YOU talk about it!"

[mondo joe]

5. Wow - another anti-porn advocate thinks the anti-porn side is more logical.

That's a laugh.

And entirely predictable.

[Tsiyu]

11. That's all you got?

m'kay

















:boring:








..

[mondo joe]

17. If we were talking about beer, people PROBABLY wouldn't say things like:

"It is my opinion that people who consume BEER and/or defend people who consume BEER are not fit to breathe the air that the rest of us breathe."

[Tsiyu]

23. Oh, some people would say that

I know some folks who HATE alcohol of any kind. They are called Baptists.

Let me ask you this: would you have more patience and sympathy for a person who said something like that (what you just said above) if you knew that they had been terrorized by an abusive alcoholic spouse or maybe that their only child was just killed by a drunk driver?

People approach the issues from their own point of reference. It would help some of us to remember that others have gone through things we may never experience. If you cannot see the pain in that person to respond in that way, argue with someone who wants to argue in a healthy way. But don't assume that anyone who dislikes porn in any way is some enemy of yours.

There are serious problems in the porn industry as with any industry. The longer you try to hide that fact or distract others from that fact or shame others for pointing out that fact, the longer it will take for any understanding to ever be reached on this issue.

[mondo joe]

40. To answer your question:

"Let me ask you this: would you have more patience and sympathy for a person who said something like that (what you just said above) if you knew that they had been terrorized by an abusive alcoholic spouse or maybe that their only child was just killed by a drunk driver?"

Not much. Not more than someone who said the same about gays because they had once been molested by a gay man.

In the heat of the moment many things can be thought or said. But eventually your case has to stand - or fall - on its own merits.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tsiyu]

13. Huh?

I'm not sure what you mean but....

No beer threads!

Ha! That'll be the day!

[ruiner4u]

14. Ya know who dosent like porn and beer?

you guessed it.. The Taliban.

[Tsiyu]

19. Actually they prolly watch it too

they just don't want their FOLLOWERS watching it.

And Evangelicals SAY they hate porn but I think i read somewhere that 50% of them are addicted to it, too.

But trying to compare people who see problems in the porn industry to the Taliban is like saying people (like me) who hate the Iraq war are terrorists.

I've been called "the enemy of America" by the chickenhawks and i am STILL against the war, so what makes you think comparing me to the Taliban (because I see problems in the porn industry) is going to be any more productive for you?

Is that really the best you can do?

Either: I say "there are no problems in the porn industry" OR YOU say "You are the Taliban." ???????????????

Sharp! :silly:

[LostInAnomie]

18. A more apt analogy would be...

... if the OP identified numerous problems with root causes that have nothing to do with "beer". Then they go on to imply that it would be impossible for any individual to take part in the making of "beer" without being economically coerced, abused, or suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. They would also make the claim that "beer drinkers" are scum that objectify "brewery employees" and propagate their abuse and misery.

The respondent then would point out that the "brewery employees" are adults, and as adults we should respect their choices. They would also point out that every industry relies on economic coercion to get employees, so why would they single out "beer" if their problem isn't really with the "alcohol" in it?

The OP then would respond by posting numerous links to "anti-beer" websites, and articles written by "anti-beer crusaders" that only reiterate the claim that no sane person could take part in making "beer", and then blames "beer" for myriad social ills that would exist if "beer" would disappear tomorrow.

[Tsiyu]

25. The respondent would then call the OP a Puritan freak

Seriously, are you also one of those who insists that the porn industry has no problems?

Are you afraid of the truth about the way some porn is produced, so much so that you take any criticism as an "implied" wish for the destruction of the entire industry?

I just don't get the dream world some people live in.

See, I know when i purchase cheap shit from China, someone is living a piss-poor existence to make the crap available to me. I KNOW workers are being abused, not provided living wages or healthcare.

I don't pretend I don't know just so i can buy all the cheap Chinese-made crap i want.

[The Straight Story]

26. Maybe you should have used that post as your op

:)

[Tsiyu]

28. Hmmmmmmm

i would start over, but i think I'm "porned out."


:P

[mondo joe]

43. By the way, who in any of those threads EVER said "the porn industry has NO problems"?

I didn't see anyone.

To the contrary, I saw a number of pro-choice people talk about how to decrease the problems through normalization, ensuring labor and safety standards.

I don't know how anyone could say ANY industry has NO problems.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

30. You haven't necessarily completed the analogy

After the OP linked to the "anti-beer" websites and articles, the respondent might come back with several "pro-beer" websites, sponsored openly or covertly by the beer industry. Some of them would feature interviews of the handful of successful brewery employees who gush about how much they looooove beer-making, despite having to perform tasks that the average person, even the most ardent beer-drinker, would find degrading and repellent if they had to perform them. The respondent might then point to the .05% of brewery employees who go on to run their own successful breweries as "proof" that being a brewery employee is an awesome career opportunity, even though the vast majority don't fare nearly as well.

Does this parallel with other industries? Absolutely. Is it true, as you say, that every industry relies on economic coercion to get employees? Most definitely. But all economic coercion is not equal. Let's take WalMart, for example. All the time I'm seeing commercials with happy, smiling WalMart employees talking about how great it is to work at WalMart. But do you think that most people who work at WalMart are excited about it? How much "choice" do you think the average WalMart employee really has, given the bloodthirsty business practices of that company and the socio-economic position that most of them are in, not to mention nearly 40 years of plutocratic economic policies that have effectively destroyed our manufacturing base and much of our middle class? Do you think, if those WalMart employees had the education, social capital, and resources to have a wider range of career choices, that they'd work at some smelly-ass WalMart for 8 bucks an hour?

Do you think that the average sex worker would be doing what he/she were doing if a lot of things had turned out differently in his/her life?

[unpossibles]

74. I don't know about the average sex worker

but I have a couple of friends (both women, btw) in the industry, and they say that having waited tables before, porn is less degrading and pays better. AND they got sexually harassed just as much in restaurants - even though it sometimes was more subtle - but had to deal with it if they wanted those tips.

Go figure.

I will agree the industry has problems. I will also agree that some people don't seem to handle it well. But that doesn't inherently mean porn is the root of all evil either.

[Jed Dilligan]

22. All this idle chatter about the evils of vice

can only feed into the greater evils of censorship and prohibition. What else is it here for?

You think mouthing off about it on the internet is going to help anyone's problems with alcohol or sex addiction?

Host a support group in your living room if you care so much.

[Tsiyu]

27. Well aren't you just a happy ball of sunshine this evening!

I am discussing the way we discuss things on DU.

And no, I will not solve the problems of the world tonight. I'm shooting for tomorrow night.

There are a lot of people hurt by the things we do as a society. Talking about that is good for society, IMHO. Telling me to shut up and start my own support group is









CENSORSHIP!!!!!!!!












WOOOHOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
















:yoiks:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

32. They're all about upholding the free speech of the oppressors

Those who are oppressed, not so much. Free speech is a one-way discussion, I guess.

[Tsiyu]

38. Isn't it amazing?

those who cry 'Censorship!!!!!!!' the loudest are the very first ones to tell you to "shut up and don't talk about it."

Trying to open their eyes is like trying to open the eyes of a Repuke. They. Just. Do. Not. Get. It.

And they don't WANT to get it. They want to stick their fingers in their ears and cry 'lalalalala i can't hear you."

[mondo joe]

44. As your friend says, "Newsflash: Criticism does not equal censorship. "

Criticizing doesn't mean, as you say, "shut up and don't talk about it."

[Jed Dilligan]

67. Did I delete your post?

No. Therefore, it's not censorship.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

31. No, you hide in YOUR living room if criticism bothers you so much

Newsflash: Criticism does not equal censorship.

Too bad, I'm not going to shut up because some people don't want to have their favorite hobby scrutinized. And definitely not as long as porn has infiltrated the mainstream to the extent that I can't avoid pornographic, misogynistic imagery as I go about my daily life. Free speech is for everyone, not just those with whom you are in agreement.

Frankly, I don't give a shit about anyone's problems with alcohol or sex addiction. I'm neither doctor nor missionary. I just want them to keep their problems the hell off my life. That means I don't want drunks out on the road threatening me and my loved ones. And I don't want to deal with porn-addled assholes who think that I like being viewed as a piece of meat. In the former case, I want the law involved. In the latter, (barring criminal assualts or on-the-job harassment) I want to shout to the rooftops what fucking sad asshole losers I think they are. If you think that's censorship and prohibition, I honestly feel sorry for you.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

35. UP, please reconsider!

I'm a HUGE fan of yours, so I'm saddened that you are upset by what I said. I'm saying that people who watch porn and think that the (most likely) horribly abused people who perform in it ENJOY it are complete fucking assholes. I'm not expressing antipathy toward people who abuse alcohol or who suffer from sex addiction. I'm just saying that I am not going along with the status quo that I'm supposed to shut up and act like exploitation is okay because, otherwise, I'm for "censorship".

[undergroundpanther]

36. I misunderstood you than

I apologize.
I wasn't clear about whom this was directed to.
I gotta head to sleep anyways gotta get up early tomorrow.
It is a pain in the ass when I am nocturnal and I gotta force myself to be up early on a diurnal schedule. Wish me luck, tomorrow coffee will be my best friend methinks...


I am sorry I misunderstood your post.I hate it when I do that.
My bad.Really.I hope I don't get stupid and do it again.I am sorry.

[Jed Dilligan]

70. Since we're not censoring anyone here, I guess

I can "shout from the rooftops" what "assholes and losers" people are if they want the police more involved in American society than it already is, or if they spend time thinking about the personal business of strangers.

[unpossibles]

48. you know, at one point gay people were considered sick and abominations

frankly, as long as all involved are adults, I fail to see why it should bother you what people do in the privacy of their own homes and/or businesses.

Prohibition - of alcohol and later of porn - does nothing but create criminals, a blackmarket environment, and violence. I'd say look at the drug war and all of the problems caused by that, but you probably champion that too.

[mondo joe]

49. Indeed. And as a gay man, after a lifetime of being called harmful, sick, deviant,

and having strangers second guess the most personal choices (and non choices!), I've had enough of the sex-authoritarians.

[unpossibles]

51. me too!

Frankly, I wish the Grandmothers of Prevention would stay the hell out of my bedroom, my pants, and stop trying to tell everyone else what is The Right Thing To Do and what is Sick. I feel the same way about prostitution: I've never been to a prostitute, I don;t plan on it, but damn it I wish it were legal, which would make it safer and more regulated. I'm fine with regulations on things, as long as they do not overstep boundaries of what consenting adults Choose to do with their lives.

If I wanted that, I'd join Falwell's (im)Moral Minority.

cheers!

[mondo joe]

52. Cheers, my gay soul brother!!

I know a BS sex-authoritarian rationalization for trying to control others personal choices when I see it.

Glad I'm not alone.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

61. It bears constant repeating. Criticism does not equal censorship.

Not everyone who is critical of pornography is a religious fundamentalist bent on banning it. You can be for keeping certain things legal, while still cautioning people about their potential for harm. Cigarettes and alcohol are legal, yet we are all well aware of the dangers of using or abusing them. Drugs should be decriminalized as well, but I don't think you'd have a problem with the gov't continuing to run PSAs about the dangers of crystal meth if that happened, would you?


Why do people assume and extrapolate all sorts of things about those of us who point out the harms caused by pornography?

[EstimatedProphet]

54. Eye of the beholder

I see two distinct groups here who are vehemently at odds with each other. But in the logic department, those who dislike porn are winning. Why? Because the people who are defending porn at any and all cost just seem like those who defend * at any and all cost. None of you can, for even a moment, admit that there IS damage done by some porn.

I see the same thing going on on the opposing side too. Unfortunately, this is all to true of DU in general these days. It seems like it's far more polarized than it used to be. We used to be able to have civil discussions. these days, any subject turns into a flame war, and each side can point, usually truthfully, to people on the other side that defend their viewpoint at all costs.

[atommom]

59. Unfortunately, many don't see the difference between saying there

are problems with something and saying that that something should be outlawed. I haven't seen anyone here advocate outlawing porn (that would never work, and yes, it would be censorship). I have seen some people saying that we should try to reduce the amount of exploitation that goes on in the industry, so that no one enters it except of their own free will. Don't worry, no one is coming after your porn stash, people.

[Tsiyu]

71. It's actually kind of funny

because up above you can see a couple of guys going back and forth like old men convinced the Russians are headed toward their audio-visual setups.

It's like listening to people with Alzheimer's or severe dementia.

"No, Gramps. The Yankees aren't in Roswell. It's 2007, Gramps. Put away your muzzle loader and come take your pill."

Suddenly all of these people I know online are prudes and I just know that isn't so. Like me. I'm the least "hung up on sex" person I know. I gave all the kids condoms in their stockings at Christmas. I take them to the Health Dept. I am always being asked for advice on relationships and I always give it discreetly and with no judgement.

I also support people's right to make and sell and view porn. I think it is absolutely stupid that my cousin had
to have a sex toy mailed to my house because she lives in Georgia and can't legally receive vibrating plastic toys in the mail. WTF?

I think human adults should have the right to make their own choices regarding whom they sleep with and whom they love.

But I will dump any guy who is into porn. Not because I'm a prude. I like erotic art and photography and I prefer to be with someone who enjoys the same, someone who is creative and imaginative and respectful. Some men have to have porn to get off. That is so boring and sad, to me, but it sure isn't my problem. They can get a shrink if they care (most don't seem to care though) and I'll find a guy who doesn't have to imagine sex with someone else to actually enjoy sex with me.

Men who are NOT into porn just seem more well-adjusted, less threatened by women and they don't make the sick comments that men who are into porn make about women's bodies. This doesn't mean that every man who looks at porn is a disgraceful animal, it just means I prefer to go out with men who don't need porn to feel sexual.

This is just my experience.

I'm not telling anyone what to do, how to do it or whom to do it with nor do I have any suggestions on camera brands. Do what makes you happy.

But don't tell me that I can't have my own opinions on the relative merits of pornography. Why would anyone NOT want to know what kind of impact an industry has on their nation?

If it's all positive, that truth will be revealed in discussion. If there are negative aspects to the porn industry - even if it's just that the proliferation of violent porn drives a wedge between the sexes - why is it wrong to want to discuss this?

And why do all of the old geezer men show up whining that we are going to take away their porn? No matter what you day to the poor old dolts, they can't see that the discussion is not about censorship, but about impact and influence in society.

[hedgehog]

73. i quite agree.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

79. Because it's all they have. It's like wingnuts with the Clenis or Chappaquiddick

You know how when you get into one of those futile discussions with your BushBot co-worker, and it ends with him trying to blame everything on Bill Clinton or making some non-sequitur about Ted Kennedy and you realize that means that you have won the argument, yet again. That's what the censorship canard is for the porn defenders.

And porn is their GWB. I swear to god, the porn industry could start skinning women alive on film and these Free Speech Flag Wavers would still refuse to admit there was a problem.

[Tsiyu]

93. What bothers me the most is that

you can hear the crickets chirping when someone posts about women's health or reproductive rights or parity in the workplace.

Not that I'm doubting anyone's commitment to Women's causes, mind you. It's just that I question the sincerity of those who can only relate personally and passionately to the issue - of women's rights to make choices about their own bodies - when it threatens their DVD stash.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

77. Do you think the porn industry would stand for that?

Imagine if sex workers organized, formed unions, and demanded safety and fair working conditions and pay through collective bargaining? Betcha the industry executives would start lobbying real quick against it.

[Nikia]

83. I agree

I think that is perfectly alright to criticize the porn industry, just as it is alright to criticize any other industry. Even if I disapprove of something or think that it is detrimental to many people who engage in it, doesn't mean that I want it made illegal. I am more interested in talking about ways to make it less detrimental.

[porphyrian]

78. I don't see what your problem with beer, porn and actors is. - n/t

[pitohui]

81. beer drinking isn't under threat

DOJ and FBI is not collecting names of beer drinkers and producers

bzzzt! thanks for playing

:-)

[Matariki]

84. There are problems in most industries

Should we stop wearing clothes because some clothes are made in sweat shops? Do you know honestly if yours were or not?

[Tsiyu]

90. The worst we can do is nothing

How do I deal with abuse in the clothing industry?

I buy my clothes at thrift stores or accept hand-me-downs.

Not a fashion victim here by any means.

Here's something: when we see problems in society, I propose we NOT do what everyone else proposes: Nothing.

I suggest we keep talking.