Tell me about "the surge" - is it working or not?

[Skip Intro]

I've got some rw fanatic at work to whom I've shown reality several times, to his dismay. This is a died in the wool republikan, gwot is only purpose of life, they are out to get us, must get them first, bush is GOD, kinda guy, pro-Iraq war from the outset.

He's also somebody I kinda care about. He's telling me now that the surge is working. I guess "surge is working" means whatever you want it to mean. Anyway, he slams Dems, cites certainly wrong stats, all of which I could bust him on. But I want to bust him on the idea that the surge is working.

So is it or not.


Working.



And what does, "surge is working" mean?

[NanceGreggs]

1. It's WORKING JUST GREAT, MAN!

We've finally been greeted as Liberators! The people are dancin' in the streets!

Unfortunately, in a related story, over 500 Iraqi civilians were killed last week when a bomb went off in a -- uh, when hundreds of people were trampled in a mad crush to get to the sweets and flower shops to purchase gifts for their US Liberators.

Ask your friend why the WH just spent $15,000,000 of the taxpayers' money on a PR campaign aimed at convincing the public that the surge is working. If it really was working, why would they have to pay people to say so?

[alfredo]

2. We have been successful in Anbar Province, but that has taken

most of our ground forces to hold our gains. Anbar is but one of the eighteen provinces. Where are we going to get the soldiers to hold those seventeen additional provinces. We can't just move our troops to another province without Anbar descending back into chaos.

Remind him that the Generals are saying by this spring our military will be broken, and that in all likelihood come this Sept, after the Patreaus report, bush will ask for more troops, no matter what is in the report. If the report is good, he will say we need more to finish the job. If the report is bad, he will say the stakes are too high to allow defeat, we must double our efforts.

[Poiuyt]

6. The success in Anbar is because we are giving arms to rebel Sunni groups

Let's get this straight; any success in Anbar is not because of the surge, it is because of deals made with Sunni insurgents who shortly before the deals, were killing Americans, and who are now receiving American aid. This would have happened with or without the surge.

more -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brent-budowsky/many-democrats-wrong-on-i_b_61482.html

see also:

US confirms it is arming Sunni insurgents

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/US_confirms_it_arming_Sunni_insurgents_0610.html

Gee, what could possibly go wrong here?

[alfredo]

9. I was framing it in a way that would probably work with the person

mentioned in the OP. You always start off with something positive, then from there you pick it apart. It's like telling a story. If you don't sell the premise, they story won't succeed.

I don't think the listener would be interested in how we did it, success is success to them. That's when you remind them that there are seventeen other provinces in Iraq that need to be pacified and that even if we doubled our forces, it wouldn't be near enough.

[The Straight Story]

3. The porn surge on DU is working. I am already checking out more porn

:rofl:

[kenny blankenship]

4. The Sunnis have withdrawn from the government, Basra has been ethnically cleansed,

the British Army literally wants to be allowed to run away before they are all killed in their base at the Basra Airport. We are now arming the Sunni tribal militia leaders - who are not elected government officials but in fact hostile to the elected government and probably preparing to secede. The worst bombing attack in Iraq's history (aside from OUR bombings of course) took place just 8 days ago in Tal Afar, after surge supporters declared this area safe and stable. US Senators are calling for Nouri Al-Maliki a leader of a sovereign state to be deposed, and that man has been recently photographed walking hand in hand with Iranian President Ahmadinejad, and has said that Iraq will find new friends.

What part of this picture is working?

[Amonester]

5. That part is not working either (it's called Reality. Scary reality).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x302840
Bye-Bye Baghdad is the title.

Don't hold your breath, though. You know... Iraq would be burning (well, it's close...) daily, and... herr bu$che 'bots would still say "It's working" in their dreams.

[Seabiscuit]

7. Easy answer: How can you "kinda care about" someone who exhibits such disgusting behavior?

I wouldn't waste a minute of my precious time talking to such an obnoxious ignorant asswipe.

[Skip Intro]

8. He's a very misguided person. He lives in a fragile fantasy world. i want to enlighten him.

He's a good guy at heart. Just coated with some disgusting layers of slime. Metaphorically.

[Seabiscuit]

10. You have more faith in human nature than I. I think people like him are a waste of time and energy.

Just look at how he thoughtlessly bashes Dems like you with his brainwashed right-wing lies and talking points right to your face. Some friend. Some "good guy at heart". That's the kind of heart I'd feed to a dog.

I leave "soul saving" to the churchy types who claim they're in the business of "saving souls".

Not my cup of tea, thank you.

[Sir Jeffrey]

13. Read this book, and then ask yourself if you are wasting your time:

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

People need to discover things on their own. The information is out there if he wants to know it. For some reason, your friend chooses to ignore reality.

[MichaelHarris]

11. Working,

just like the cure for Ebola is working as long as you don't count the dead bodies.

[wellst0nev0ter]

12. If The Purpose Of The Surge Is To Stop People From Getting Killed

Then, well. . .

Civilian deaths in Iraq rise in July

BAGHDAD, Aug 1 (Reuters) - Civilian deaths from violence in Iraq rose by a third from the previous month, with 1,653 people reported killed, according to government statistics released on Wednesday.

The figures also showed 224 Iraqi soldiers and police had been killed.

While the number of civilian deaths was a sharp increase from June, when 1227 were reported killed, the figures were in line with those of other months this year.


http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/GRA163911.htm

And

And while top U.S. officials insist that 50 percent of the capital is now under effective U.S. or government control, compared with 8 percent in February, statistics indicate that the improvement in violence is at best mixed.

U.S. officials say the number of civilian casualties in the Iraqi capital is down 50 percent. But U.S. officials declined to provide specific numbers, and statistics gathered by McClatchy Newspapers don't support the claim.

The number of car bombings in July actually was 5 percent higher than the number recorded last December, according to the McClatchy statistics, and the number of civilians killed in explosions is about the same.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iraq/story/19036.html

[mmonk]

14. Suppose it is (which we won't know anyway)

what does it accomplish? We are creating a client state under our control in the middle east. How long do you suppose they will live peaceably under forced foreign rule so their resources can be exploited? Darkness doesn't hold its rule forever because humans don't like it.

[mmonk]

15. I will add that anyone who supports

this supports the neoconservative cause. It does not matter what label they are or what they say as they pretend to give a sh*t concerning the plight of ordinary Americans.