Why go to college? Why not become an electrician, plumber, welder, etc.?

[raccoon]

Instead of going to college for 4 years (at least), racking up megadebt, and possibly ending up with a McJob?


In the USA we have two dumbass ideas regarding this.

(1) EVERYBODY should go to college.

(2) College is "better than" learning a trade.

[porphyrian]

1. Right now, it's a much better bet at landing a decent job. - n/t

[Iris]

121. Trades are decent jobs. n/t

[pitohui]

237. not if they were $20 an hour in 1990 and still $20 an hour today

my husband is in heavy industry

we are struggling, hourly employees don't get anything close to keeping up to inflation

and "under the table" plumbers, etc. who don't have large employers have tons of expenses and yet people are not really paying them any more, not that much cash around these days

sorry, this was actually a good idea in 1980, too bad my husband and i lived more than a couple decades

:-(

[sandnsea]

240. Beats $8.00 hr

I hear you completely, wages haven't kept up with inflation at all. But the trades are something for young men in their 20's & 30's, with all the boomers retiring in the next 10 years.

[pitohui]

241. the boomers are not going to retire

they don't have savings or pensions

retirement is a thing of our parents and grandparents' generation

a self-employed plumber doesn't get a 401(K) or even a paid vacation

[sandnsea]

242. They're retiring here

They paid their FICA, put some money away, paid off a home, and have a business to sell. I know that isn't true everywhere, but it's true lots of places. I know lots of trades people who have done as well as lawyers and accountants and the like.

[porphyrian]

263. Yeah, my friend is a carpenter.

Between the greedy contractors using illegal labor and our bullshit "right to work" anti-union environment, he's making almost half as much as he would have for the same thing in 1991. And material costs are through the roof.

[wordpix]

323. my friend got a biology degree & ended up being a carpenter w/his own business

He's doing well b/c it's his own biz, he specializes in renovations and there are a lot of colonials to renovate here, also lots of richies.

He said he couldn't find a job as a biologist.

[smoogatz]

302. $20/hour? Where do you live that you can hire a plumber or electrician

for $20/hour? I live in a small city in west-central Wisconsin--not exactly L.A. or N.Y.C.--and we pay in the neighborhood of $80/hour for plumbers and electricians. That works out to $160,000/year, based on a 40 hour work week and two weeks vacation. Materials extra, of course.

[KillCapitalism]

326. Round these parts $20/hr. is great money.

The city/metro area I live in economically is probably 2nd worst in the country behind Detroit. Most people I know around here are lucky to find something even paying $10/hr. and that even includes college graduates. I've even seen an ad local want ads looking for an IT Professional with a 4-yr. degree. Starting salary for that one is $11.00/hr.:-(

[pnwmom]

258. It won't be when most people have college degrees.

I wonder why my school district is pushing all students to go to 4 year colleges, when only about 25% of jobs actually require a college degree.

Eventually, we'll have a lot of overqualified college graduates chasing after jobs that used to only require a high school education.

[timtom]

260. Don't overlook the fact

that higher education has become, largely, a big scam. You borrow out the gazoom to pay for it and what you get isn't worth near what you paid. Now, you've got a big-ass debt and a piece of paper.

[porphyrian]

262. We've already got that situation in various places in America.

Here in Tallahassee, for example, we're chock full o' the over-educated and under-paid. Fries with that?

[pnwmom]

287. But I bet you still have jobs for electricians, plumbers, etc.

The other advantage of the trades, as opposed to jobs for white collar people, is that they actually have to be done here, in the U.S. You can outsource the work of an accountant or a financial analyst or of a software writer. But you have to have someone HERE to fix your plumbing or your electricity.

[porphyrian]

296. Yep, morticians too. - n/t

[cgrindley]

2. Because guest worker journeymen will become a reality

and wages for the skilled trades will collapse. I've already seen the start of it in CT.

[OzarkDem]

174. Its the future

Even now, people working in those trades don't earn what they used to years ago.

Growing up during the 70's, kids I knew in high school could opt to follow their fathers into construction, pipe-fitting, transportation trades, electrical work, HVAC etc. and expect to make a decent middle class living for their families w/ health insurance and retirement benefits and a nice vacation now and then. My dad worked in HVAC and made a very good living for a family of 7 w/ a nice split level in the burbs. For a lot of my friends, those blue collar jobs were a viable alternative to a college degree.

All that changed over the years, wages stagnated and didn't keep up with inflation. Many of those guys barely get by in their chosen professions today. Its just as frightening that kids today could go through 4 yrs of college and graduate w/ low paying jobs and the equivalent of a mortgage payment in college debt.

It can be turned around with the right policies and I have no doubt Dems can get the job done in short order once Bush is out of office.

[girl gone mad]

268. Same thing that's happening in nursing...

I went to visit a great aunt in a nursing home a couple of months ago and every single medical staff member at the center she was in was from the Carribean.

[pnwmom]

288. Only if we let it happen. Certainly, there are a lot of DUers that would

seem to support that.

[dysfunctional press]

311. eastern european tradesmen are becoming the norm very quickly.

quality work, low wages, and they're white.

[jtrockville]

3. Not everyone can

It's not always easy for everyone to become a tradesman, (or a doctor or a lawyer). Tradesmen often need physical dexterity, as well as certain mental abilities.

In order for us to truly be the "land of opportunity", we need to provide opportunities in many fields.

[A HERETIC I AM]

20. I'm sorry, but i don't follow your point here.....

It's not always easy for everyone to become a tradesman, (or a doctor or a lawyer). Tradesmen often need physical dexterity, as well as certain mental abilities.

What is it you are trying to say? Of course it's not "easy" to become a tradesman. It takes effort and work. If it is not as easy as falling off a log, does it make the OP's point less valid? "As well as certain mental abilities" ?!? Well, i should hope so. I prefer the Plumber, Carpenter or Electrician i might hire have a brain and a clue on what he is doing, thank you very much.

In order for us to truly be the "land of opportunity", we need to provide opportunities in many fields.

There are opportunities in "many fields". The fact that they might not be in your area or landing in your lap does not mean they don't exist.

[jtrockville]

29. Yes, you missed my point.

My point is, that not everyone has every single ability. Some people can become tradesmen, others cannot, no matter how hard they're willing to work or how much effort they put forth.

Same for any other occupation/profession. People aren't "one size fits all" when it comes to abilities.

As far as opportunites go, do you know what the fastest growing job in America is? It's janitorial. Work ethic, abilities, and education are moot if jobs simply aren't available.

[A HERETIC I AM]

44. I seriously doubt that Raccoon, if asked directly, would suggest that people are "one size fits all"

Of course people have different abilities. They also have different likes and dislikes. That's why the entire population is not either designing airplanes or laying bricks. It takes all kinds.

Not to put words in the OP's mouth but i think the larger point is valid. You don't have to go to college in order to get a decent career or job. I concede that the days of being able to graduate from High School, getting your Union Card and starting at the factory your dad worked at are long gone. But at 48, i am now on my 2nd career, moving from the blue collar arena into the white collar arena. The first career took training. Interestingly enough, so did the 2nd, but on a different level.

As far as the fastest growing job segment in America is concerned, do you think it will stay janitorial forever?

[jtrockville]

50. I agree with the larger point, but stand by my reply: not everyone can

And I think the job market in America is going to get much worse before it gets better.

[Art_from_Ark]

286. You are right

Different people have different aptitudes. Some can fit easily into an office environment, others feel more comfortable in a blue collar environment. For the first 15 years of my working life, I was in a blue collar environment, and I hated nearly every minute of it. The work was dirty, difficult, and low-paying I didn't get much respect from society at large, and I was always being teased by coworkers. I finally found my way out of it and am much happier in my current "casual collar" environment.

[Squatch]

4. I went to college, paid for it all myself and walked away without debt.

Through scholarships and a series of really cool-ass jobs (like whitewater kayaking instructor, etc) I was able to pay for college without incurring any debt. When I graduated, I had anything *but* a "McJob"...I was commissioned into the Army Field Artillery and have had an amazing time over the past 10 years developing professionally.

So, from my point of view and based on my experiences:

(1) True
(2) I learned a trade in college, so your second point is meaningless.

[Katherine Brengle]

145. Your experience is no longer the norm, unfortunately.

The cost of college keeps rising, and there aren't enough great jobs to go around anymore. Oftentime, the job you worked so hard for doesn't pay enough to cover your debt and keep you afloat.

I got a good deal of financial aid, including scholarships, and worked throughout college, and I have a lot of debt - and a lot less than most.

[treestar]

164. What years were these?

Even whitewater kayaking instructor demands a skill not everyone has, either. Would you have made enough as a waiter or other low skill job?

The army helps, too. Not everyone wants to go into the military.

[Squatch]

170. The WW job was just for beer money.

It paid $18 an hour, and I think I worked 10 hours a week at that job. Tuition, books, room, and board were paid for through my scholarships. I also went to a public state university that is still on the cheap side, which helped.

This was from 1994 to 1997.

[treestar]

172. OK you did good, but in the generality of things

Not everybody gets a scholarship either.

[Squatch]

173. I have a 529 plan sitting aside for my son.

I've already decided that if he can pay for his school doing what I did, then I'll give him the proceeds from liquidating the 529 upon his graduation. Should be a nice incentive to take the initiative in developing himself scholastically and fiscally.

[pnwmom]

290. Scholarships are getting smaller and smaller as a proportion of

college costs. Most new graduates are coming out with substantial debt these days.

And $18 an hour? Ten years ago? None of the college students I know now make as much as you did ten years ago. At my niece's public university, she has a job paying $8 per hour.

Your experience was unusual then, and would be even more so today.

[pitohui]

239. that must have been many years ago

i had no debt either even tho as a girl i had no ability to get any "cool" jobs to help pay my way, i had to get shitty ones that often ended up paying below min. wage at the end of the night

be that as it may, college tuitions are not what they were in the 70s and early 80s

i've had bottles of wine that cost more than my first semester in college, and i'm not a big spender

times have changed, and a year in college, any college is a four or five figure proposition

even a semester's worth of textbooks is $500!

working to pay for college means you will be quite old before you ever get out if you want to do it w.out debt -- and i don't know if taking forever to get a degree enhances the value of that degree anyway

:shrug:

with depressed wages for the blue collar, the OP's post was dated advice, but sadly your advice is very dated also

[ThomWV]

5. Because in a failed economy there is no employment for an electrcian, plumber, welder, etc.

[JVS]

7. Are you crazy? Do people stop shitting when the economy is bad?

Because as long as people are shitting, there will be a need for plumbers.

[cgrindley]

10. The plumber we hire in ten years will be making 5 dollars an hour

he will be a foreign trained journeyman brought in to work for Plumbco Intl. who will undercut all of the local plumbers until they are all bankrupt.

[lpbk2713]

14. And PlumbCo Intl will of course be a major RNC contributor.

(Assuming there will be anything left of the RNC at that time.)

[cgrindley]

17. Of course it will

the country is too evenly divided and too capitalistic for the Republicans to ever go away or indeed not alternate administrations with the Democrats.

[Katherine Brengle]

146. If you accept that, it will happen.

My BIL is a plumber - went to a vocational high school. He's 22 years old and he makes $40/hour.

It's up to consumers whether the same will be true in 5 years.

[cgrindley]

178. I didn't accept WTO and it happened

I didn't accept Bush and it happened. I didn't accept war with Iraq and it happened. I didn't accept a lot of things... and you know what? They all fucking well happened. This isn't going to be any different.

[Deja Q]

185. And the CEO still makes 500x as much or more...

Because they make all the big decisions that can end up ruining their company, hence the excuse for such bloated pay. Except bad times are inevitable and even they are supposed to take 'the hit' from time to time, along with everyone else.

[OhioChick]

11. I Know a Plumber (Over 20 Years Experience)

and he's hurting bad, financially. He said that business is awful. Instead of calling plumbers, people are learning how to do it themselves, far cheaper. (Apparently, most are lacking the $$$$ to call a plumber when needed) Home Depot (Not sure about Lowes) offer "Do it Yourself" classes.

[Sadie4629]

16. It's great that more people are doing that--

--but there will always be some who can't or won't take the time to learn. There will always be people with money, and they will continue to build bigger and bigger houses with more and more bathrooms. Some plumbers may be hurting, but many will make lots of money.

[treestar]

103. Exactly. That kind of thing is only people who weren't going to

pay a plumber anyway. Now they have it fixed. Without having done it themselves, it just doesn't get fixed.

Some plumbers make $$ writing the how-to guides, too.

[treestar]

102. That increases business for plumbers

Since people who do it themselves usually screw it up and make it worse.

I'm a lawyer and there's nothing better for business than people who write their own wills. Instead of just a will, you get a whole case with a trial and everything.

[pitohui]

244. not hardly

we haven't called a plumber in 25 years and we never once screwed up a job or even a major reno of one of the baths

plumbing is just not rocket science

[dysfunctional press]

309. not at all...

if that were true- why would the plumber be hurting so badly...?

[KansDem]

111. Very true...

I'm in the process of adding a third room in my house for my son. It's in the garage on a kind of loft up off the garage floor, but when I'm done it should make for a nice little third bedroom. Well, I am pretty confident of the carpentry involved, but I thought I'd have to have someone come in and do the plumbing and electrical (we need to move the washer to another location in the garage). But, lacking funds, I've looked into home plumbing and electrical with the intention of doing it myself. I don't necessary want to, but can't afford to bring in professionals. I think I'm o.k. with the plumbing, but the electrical I'm still "iffy" about. However, since a permit is required, I thought I could do the electrical work and call in the building inspector to sign off (required). At least then if I really screwed something up, she could catch it before I put the walls on!

And "yes," I'm one of those who took a class from Home Depot--"ceramic tile" (I redid our bathroom).

[rucky]

227. I guess I'm keeping our guy in business...

because every time I try to do plumbing myself, I end up flooding the place.

[pitohui]

243. yes we're seeing this also

and another issue is in a disaster area, like new orleans, where there is no labor to be had at times, you HAVE to learn how to do it yourself -- even if you do have insurance money, you might not be able to get the labor

we did a large part of our katrina recovery work ourselves and with the help of a friend (paid in wine, all he would accept) and a neighbor who needed cash

otherwise who knows how long we would have had to wait, everyone on my street had damage, EVERYONE, and most people had more -- the professionals wanted the "big jobs" first

[Ilsa]

301. Depends on the level of difficulty of the task, also. And whether

soldering and other things that may have to do with maintaining standards are involved. I can install a faucet in a sink, but when it came to replacing faucets in the bathtub and creating extra turnoff valves, I needed and wanted someone who knew what they were doing.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

306. Yup.

My honey and I replaced a basic potty in the house we're going to move into.

I think my contribution was my tiny little fingers reaching under the tank to screw the tiny little nuts on the bolts.

Honey was kinda amazed when I started talking about "3-inch centers" and "floats" and "flapper valves" and "P-traps".

My daddy was a pipefitter at a stinkin' refinery and an attorney. We took trips to the plumbling supply place when he needed to fix the plumbing at the house.

My honey could go take the exam and be an electrician (former elec. engr. major) but he doesn't want to climb around in attics and other dangerous places.

[Sadie4629]

8. I think you're wrong about that

There will always be people who need, and have the money to pay, plumbers, electricians, etc.

In a failed economy, there will be more than enough work for a mechanic, because people will need their old cars to work longer.

Being able to fix things is always a good way to make a living.

[ThomWV]

25. A few true, but what do you weld when the factory closes, what gets plumbed when no homes are built?

[Mojorabbit]

303. My BIL is an electrician

and is hurting. Less houses being built and builders not paying him. Hard time finding employees who show up. I think his twenty year business is going under and he is getting a bit long in the tooth to be up in attics in this florida heat.

[lumberjack_jeff]

94. I think that being able to fix things is a good skill...

even for those who obtain degrees. It beats waiting tables while you wait for that english teaching job to become available.

[rucky]

226. Right about now I'll trade my English degree for a trade.

and boy are you off base - the skilled trades do better in recessions. especially the ones you mentioned, where everybody's fixing and nobody's buying new.

[bleedingheart]

6. because for some of us...college has paid off..

engineering, pharmacy, nursing, computer science (in spite of the outsourcing nonsense)...

all can pay very well and most require a degree.

The problem is that there are a lot of folks who go to college without any idea of what they want to do when they grow up so they flounder around and don't get a degree that they care about or that will result in a career path they wanted....

I think the problem is sending 18 year olds off to college without a freaking clue.

Personally if my children are really indecisive about what they want to do ...I would prefer that they wait...the money to educate them can percolate in their college fund until they are ready.

I have met far more people who regretted not going to college than those who regretted going to college.

[raccoon]

9. For some, yes, it does pay off. What chaps me most is the

dumbass American belief that EVERYBODY should go to college.

[cgrindley]

12. Everybody should go to college

not for any job skills, but to get the education required to be an informed member of the world's most powerful nation. It's a heavy responsibility and a high school education no longer makes for an informed citizen.

PS college should be free.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

23. One can be a well informed citizen without any formal schooling at all..

Turn off the tv and read..

Books, magazines, the internet.

There is an utterly overwhelming amount of information out there for those who but take the time to look a bit.

[cgrindley]

27. Nonsense

Right now, people need the minimum of a BA and I seriously doubt that high school equips our young people with basic a reading comprehension beyond that which is necessary to read the channel listings let alone the newspaper. Perhaps the situation will change in a couple of decades provided that educational reforms and standardized testing continues, but right now, no. High school is not sufficient. And if a young person today drops out say in grade 10, they are heading to failure.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

36. If you haven't developed reading comprehension...

By the time you are out of middle school you probably won't ever develop it at all.

I have a granddaughter in the second grade, she reads and speaks more fluently than *, and he has degrees from Harvard and Yale.

I hated school so much I never even went to graduation, they mailed me my diploma.

And yet I'm far better informed than almost any college graduate I know.

I have two MD's in my immediate family and, other than medical subjects, I know more than either of them, particularly so when it comes to politics or anything connected to politics.

[cgrindley]

53. ummm no

the primary objective in freshman and sophomore education in college is to undo most of high school and middle school education and attempt to get the students up to speed with regard to reading comprehension.

I seriously doubt that your 2nd grade granddaughter speaks and reads more fluently than Bush. Sure he's an idiot as president but that's deliberate evil masquerading as idiocy, and he does have a good quality BA and MBA. His grades, remember, were okay, and Yale is not an easy school.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

56. Is our children learning?

My granddaughter knows that is bad grammar and would not say that.

[cgrindley]

59. I expect that if I recorded your grand daughter all day

I would find that her grammar is at exactly the same level as any other second grade student.

I hate to defend Bush... but everyone makes grammatical slips in speech. If you were being recorded practically 24/7, you would probably also make the same sorts of slips he commonly makes.

My favorite prime minister of recent years, Jean Chretien, often sounded like an idiot during press conferences. His English (like his French) was fractured at best. That doesn't mean anything.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

62. Neither of my parents were highly educated..

But they were both very bright and my mother in particular was a stickler for proper grammar. Basically I got corrected *every* time I slipped..

So no, I don't make mistakes in grammar very often when speaking.

I passed on my early training to my daughter and she is passing it on to my grandchildren.

We live in the deep South and have family in New England, when we go up there to visit everyone meeting us is amazed that we "don't sound Southern". I made sure my daughter learned to speak without a strong regional accent because it brands you in many people's eyes as ignorant.

[girl gone mad]

274. I think you have an elitist attitude.

Many of the most intelligent people in human history had little formal education. You absolutely do not need a college education to have reading comprehension. Most of the people I went to college with were there to party. Grade inflation was prevailant, as was cheating, and I went to a good school.

[pnwmom]

292. Why would you expect that?

There isn't a standard, uniform level of verbal ability for every second grade student. The thing I hate most about the current system is this idea that schools ought to be factories, turning out a consistent product.

And concerning Bush -- everyone makes grammatical slips, but he makes slips far more often than any President I ever remember. He is the walking, talking definition of "inarticulate." I don't know about Chretien, but I think Bush's speech provides a frightening glimpse into the workings of his mind.

[Sadie4629]

39. I don't know if it's changed

but in the '70s newspapers were written at an eighth grade level. If elementary and high schools were doing a better job of teaching, most people would be able to read well enough to be very informed.

College isn't for everyone, and the idea that EVERYONE should go to college is why a bachelor's degree has been cheapened to the equivalent of a 1960's high school diploma.

[cgrindley]

57. No

the reason why the bachelor degree has cheapened is because the culture of lowered expectations, the practice of social promotion and the cult of participation took the high school diploma, ripped it up and flushed it down the toilet.

We need to vigorously enforce national standards in high school and middle school education, continue to use national testing (offloading at least 50% of grades to standardized testing) and aggressively campaign for a return to grade retention. We need to condense the curriculum to the basics and remove a lot of choice from middle and high schools.

Personally, I don't see these things happening. Indeed, I see the opposite happening and all that will result is that everyone will need an MA.

[napi21]

63. FINALLY, the RIGHT ANSWER! A BS today is = to HS in 1960!

I'm constantly appalled by the lack of talent exhibited by some "College Grads". They my have learned to read and pass exams, but they sure never acquired the basic ability to THINK!

No that doesn't mean ALL Grads are like that, but I've sure encountered a lot of them.

It's definitely a MISTAKE to believe EVERYONE should go to college! Anyone with the strong desire to go SHOULD for sure, but there are too many kids who go because their parents insisted, it's a great place to party, or some other equally wrong reason.

[cgrindley]

70. wrong wrong wrong

if everyone doesn't go to college, the US is going to get buried. Period. Everyone has to go. It's no longer an option. Even the apprenticeship programs that the OP speaks about require some college.

Every single person should be college educated. The country is doomed if not.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

75. I don't think so...

Intelligence and ability, like practically all human attributes, fall on a bell curve. There are roughly as many people below average intelligence as above.

Taken literally, your statement says that even cretins with an IQ of 65 should go to college.

What really needs to be done is to improve primary and secondary education.

[cgrindley]

80. Okay, improve primary and secondary education

but you've already posted that you don't support NCLB. How in blazes are we supposed to improve primary and secondary education without standardized testing, more attention to national curricula, and really serious procedures to address failing teachers and schools? In my opinion, schoos are broken beyond repair and the damage can only be undone at the college level.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

90. Pay and respect teachers on the same level as other professionals..

That would be a big start.

Teaching is a very difficult task that takes a great deal of aptitude and effort to do well.

There are a lot of people who simply do not do well on standardized tests. I'm damn good at it myself but there were a lot of people I went to school with who got considerably better grades than I and yet did not do nearly as well on the standardized tests.

The very fact of giving a test which is a make or break situation for students puts many of them in a panic, and in that state it is a given that they are not going to perform to the best of their ability.

[cgrindley]

95. Only after clearing out the dead wood

get rid of the failing teachers and close down or fix the failing schools.

Standardized testing works like a charm in pretty much every single other civilized nation on earth, so the USA should tuck in its skirt and quit whining. If people don't do well on the tests, fail them, make them repeat the year and learn the material until they can pass the tests. If people panic at the thought of a couple hours of multiple choice questions, what the hell are they going to do in the real world when anyone demands anything from them? People should toughen up.

A disparity between a standardized test score and a classroom score to me indicates shitty teaching, favoritism for example. You got robbed. You were probably the difficult, mouthy kid, who challenged authority and you were penalized for it.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

109. When I say students panic..

I'm just reporting a fact.

A member of my family just became an MD in the last year or so and I remember all too vividly just how nervous he was taking the final test, the equivalent of the bar exam. I don't think he slept more than an hour or two a night for at least a week before.

Like it or not, make or break tests create panic in a lot of students.

IMO, the reason the US does so poorly against many other nations in education is because the US is profoundly anti intellectual, education is thought of as a way to get a better job and those who enjoy learning for the sake of learning are mocked and ridiculed.

[treestar]

140. I know someone who literally should not have had to go to high school

She was just miserable, special ed, ADHD.

Yet she liked working with kids and liked doing filing and simple office work.

Her life would have been better had she just been able to go and work at 15. Maybe still living at home. But seriously. She'd have a little money, and be doing what she liked, and instead her self esteem was daily undermined by the fact she couldn't handle being in a classroom.

[treestar]

105. Not true at all, in fact it is the low level service jobs that need filling

There is no way this country is "doomed" if not every single person goes to college.

[cgrindley]

128. Low level service jobs are not going to pay mortgages (nt)

[treestar]

130. Combined they could

Or in combination. Or not everyone can afford to own, or lower cost housing is built, but you can't give everything a degree and then demand a market for everything they do. A nation made up entirely of professionals isn't possible - at least not without immigrants or outsourcing will have to do the lower level jobs.

[cgrindley]

133. I'll tell my kids it's better to try than to just give up

I wouldn't wish a mcjob on my worst enemy, let alone three of the things just to rent a shitty apartment.

[treestar]

139. To some people, it's a step up and they gladly do it

Though many of them come from third world countries, and this country's immigration law has no legal category for them.

And presuming these people, though undocumented aliens, are not your worst enemy, shouldn't they have college degrees too? The world cannot be equally comfortable for all, unfortunately. At least progress makes the bottom level more comfortable over time.

[cgrindley]

147. There are many colleges that accept undocumented aliens

it's really not that big of a deal depending where you live.

[treestar]

161. So in essence are you saying that

even if a person does end up being a janitor, waitress, or any other blue collar job, they should still have a college education, just for purposes of being a good citizen? (presumably this is limited to citizens and possibly legal permanent resident aliens).

[cgrindley]

177. Yes... everyone regardless of job should have a college education

in order to promote better citizenship... including ILLEGAL aliens (mostly because I do not believe in the concept of illegal aliens). I also believe that anyone who wants a kick ass high paying job had better get at least an MA.

Sure, it was different in the past. Sure, high school used to be good enough. Sure, a skilled trade was just as good as a college education. Sure, all the boomers here had very different life experiences. But those life experiences are utterly irrelevant today. The world has changed and it is not going to change back.

[raccoon]

190. It would take those janitors and waitresses a few lifetimes to pay off their college debts. nt

[girl gone mad]

276. The solution is affordable housing or wage increases...

not requiring every citizen to go to college. Someone will need to do those service jobs. So are you saying that whoever fills those positions is just SOL when it comes to housing?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

307. This is what they said after the Russians launched Sputnik, the first manmade satellite.

America freaked out and wanted kids to major in math and science so we could beat the Russians. Sputnik went up in 1957.

Well guess what? A LOT of people got degrees in math, science, physics, engineering, and such and did the American companies hire them and spend LOTS of money on research and development???

Hell, no. That was "too expensive".

And now we wonder why we are buried in Chinese and Japanese stuff.

America didn't live up to it's side of the bargain.

[mitchum]

216. That's true, and you can blame the GI Bill for a lot of that...

the college and university INDUSTRY got very greedy and wanted in on that.
Hence, four year degree programs such as:
Hotel and Restaurant Administration
Golf Course Management
Communications
Creative Writing
Media Arts
and many many more

[treestar]

106. And it lets the powers that be make the bottom rung higher and

higher and lets them leave some people out altogether.

[lumberjack_jeff]

78. A significant proportion of your DU peers lack a degree.

I don't agree that this means that they're functionally ignorant on the topic of citizenship.

I lack a degree. Consequently, I see that lack as primarily an economic problem. When USMegaCorp scans my resume, the software doesn't see the text string "Bachelor's degree" and sends it to the electronic dustbin.

My perspective is similar to that of car ownership. One who lacks a car sees the disadvantage of not being able to go where he wants. A car owner, on the other hand may see his car as a status symbol, a vehicle for fun, an object of reminiscence or a reflection of his personality - taking its transportation value for granted.

Personally, I think that (like the pedestrian) the person who lacks a college degree has a better perspective; college is an economic tool that gets your resume onto the desk of a real person.

I agree that college should be better available to people. I don't agree that it's useful as a certificate of citizenship mastery.

Self-employment works well for me.

[cgrindley]

85. So what? A large number of them went to high school when it meant

something. It doesn't mean shit any more. People today need college educations.

I think that the car metaphor is a good one. To me, owning a car is just the natural state. If I didn't own a car, I'd be fucked. Personally, I like my car, and it is a cute little reflection of my personality (I'm probably the only heavily tattooed guy who drives a baby blue convertible beetle), but I'm smart enough to know that all that crap is secondary to the car's value as a means of transportation.

The problem here in this thread is that a bunch of people who went to high school back in the day think that either a) high school is still worth a rat's ass, or b) it can be fixed.

The other problem here in this thread is that a bunch of people who've done okay in life without a college education think that a) kids today can still do the same or b) things will somehow change so that kids tomorrow will be capable of making it in life.

The answers to all of the above are not happy ones.

[treestar]

97. I know a lot of political ignoramuses with college degrees

and even graduate degrees.

My father and uncle both had PhD degrees and are as uninformed any farther than the the MSM and yet very, very opinionated, because they think they know and they don't.

The idea of a generalized education making good citizens is dead in this country. When you are in college, people are only asking for your major to find out which job you are training for, and if you major in something for which the job isn't immediately evident, they ask what you are going to do with that degree.

I majored in English and was asked 34,453 times, "but what are you going to do with that?"

[cgrindley]

131. So? I've know a lot of completly uneducated people

who also disagreed with my opinions (which is what I assume you mean by "political ignoramuses"). An education is always a good thing.

So what did you do with an English degree?

[treestar]

138. You don't need college to go beyond the MSM

And going doesn't mean you will, either.

A political ignoramus is one whose opinions are directed by Faux and CNN - who accepts the propaganda immediately and at face value and doesn't seek out more information and think for themselves.

I went to law school.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

134. I know a few plain ignoramuses with college degrees...

Yep, level of formal education doesn't have all that much to do with political sophistication.

Colleges are for the most part just glorified trade schools these days.

My MD brother in law and father in law stopped arguing politics with me a long time ago because I routinely trounced their asses. And I just barely graduated from HS.

I know it chaps their 'nads too..

[ellisonz]

246. And what did you do with your English degree?

[Katherine Brengle]

148. Actual formal education doesn't necessarily guarantee the ability to think

critically.

I had to drop out of college for financial reasons.

I continue my education on my own, and I can honestly say I have learned more since leaving college than I did while I was there - in less time.

[cgrindley]

156. But that doesn't mean anything

You've learned more since leaving college than you did when you were there... okay... fine... but do you actually think that you've learned more since leaving college than you would or could have learned if you had stayed in college (provided you had the money or the scholarships to stay in). And how long were you in college compared to how long you've been out of college? And don't you think that a limited stay in college gave you some of the tools you needed to learn on your own?

[notadmblnd]

188. I know you didn't ask me this question, but I'm going to tell you no.

and this is why; I worked in IT for 28 years. Got a job as a co-op during high school and went full time after I graduated. I had my boss let me go after my husband died and the company was cutting back to finish raising our son. I enrolled in my local community college about a year ago and have been taking the required courses one at a time. So far I've aced all my classes except math which was a C. During my assessments I scored highly in English 90 and 97, my math assessments were 15 and 20. The only area in which I can actually say I've learned something I did not already know was in the math class.. because let's face it, if you don't use it you lose it.

You're right on one thing though, kids in college today seem to be entering with a much lower level of knowledge than years ago. The thing that has struck me the most about them is that they are so docile and quiet. They don't speak or participate in class unless forced to. It's like they haven't acquired any social skills; although they will giggle on occasion when it's pointed out to an instructor that they are wrong about something. yeah, I have a bad habit of doing that. They've been dumbed down. Hell, I'm seeing a guy that is three classes away from his MBA and I'm amazed how poor his writing skills are.. Oh yeah, he knows the format and the rules on how to put a paper together, but reading them, I find them redundant and poorly worded. There's no style or flow to them that would keep any reader interested. To me, they are just written to get words on paper to meet the requirements. The other thing I know about this person, is that, other than his classes, he does not read other than what is required of him. This tells me that he has no real interest in the subject matter he is working on; he's just going after the piece of paper. He's not learning because he loves to learn.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people who love to learn will learn despite not having the economic resources that would enable them to attain that piece of paper. They don't necessarily need an instructor to guide them through the process. I've also learned that some people go after it just because they do. It doesn't make them any smarter. Just look at Bush.

Maybe if I keep going (because I've realized I need to have that piece of paper too)I might learn something I actually don't already know; or know how to learn about if I do want to know...but it hasn't occurred yet.

[cgrindley]

207. You're seeing the results of starving General Education

wait until you get the chance to start taking some philosophy courses, history courses, political science classes and so on. There are actually some subjects that are just either too vast to approach on your own or too difficult to know where to start. I'm glad I took the classes I took, there's no way that I could have just stumbled through some of it myself.

As for the MBA... writing is a difficult skill and it's also an art. You have both the art and skill of it most certainly. Some people like the guy in your class, he never got away from the skill of it. You need both to be a good writer.

[notadmblnd]

210. I agree..They've been taught how to behave

not how to think.

[cgrindley]

213. Well, I'll say this much

there's a big gulf in education right now between the forces of WAC and the non-WAC people. WAC is writing across the curriculum. It's the philosophy that says that it's everyone's duty to teach writing, even the math and science teachers should do it. That there should be essay questions rather than multiple choice questions, that every course should stress good writing skills. It's been popular for about a decade or so now, but is only really just getting implemented in a lot of colleges. Some faculty are a little resistant as all that marking is a lot more work for them, plus, you really have to think about a topic to come up with a unique essay question, say, to deal with the quadratic equation... it's not so hard to figure one out for just in time inventory systems or supply side economics, but you still see a lot of multiple choice tests when there's no real reason for them. Until every course values and teaches writing, though, I can only see it get worse.

[Nikia]

282. I only had two course that had multiple choice tests when I went to college

Most of my courses involved essays for exams. These exams were not the easy exams of high school where you just had to write a bunch of correct information. The profesors had expectations for the essays. You lost points if you failed to mention certain points. You could even lose significant points for poor writing, including grammar and spelling.
I think that it was more difficult for me to get good grades there than if I had gone to a larger college or one with lower academic standards. I believe that I got a quality education though.

[girl gone mad]

280. That's your experience.

Many people do quite well on their own, even at subjects like pholosophy and political science. I can honestly say I learned more outside of college than I did in, but I like learning. These days you can even use course outlines from MIT's open courseware, if you need some guidance.

[Nikia]

283. It is easy for my to learn philosophy, history, and political science

On my own. Science was more difficult to learn on my own so I majored in biology. I took intermediate government and history classes and scored near the top of the class with less effort than in my science classes. I suppose that we all have different learning styles and talents. Perhaps I would have been better off majoring in a subject where my talents lie.

[treestar]

167. Me too. If I ever learned to think, it was experience from the

real world.

I even got through law school without being exposed to the logical fallacies! I found an article about them much later, and really got a lot out of it.

[GreenArrow]

273. use of the logical fallacies

is indispensible to a succesful career in law. Remember, winning an argument -- legal or otherwise -- is not about who's right, it's about who argues best, and clever use of logical fallacies can help win the day nearly every time.

[CRF450]

314. Their are many ways to making it great through life without going to a 4 year college

I dropped out of highscool in the 10th grade 3 years ago. Went to the local gollege and got the GED. I took two courses in that same college later on. One was a welding course and another was CPO course. (certified pool operator)
Right now at 20 years old I am a pool cleaner at the Outerbanks NC (the beach) making about $700/week. I also have a part time job as a welder that pays $18/hour working an extra 16 hours/week. So thats close to a grand per week now untill the end of the season for pool cleaning. Then I'll be working full time welding over the winter untill the pool cleaning season starts again next April. I have my own house which I just bought, a Dodge Dakota truck for work and an 01 Trans Am for daily driving or fun, the dirtbike is for that too. I will pay off the house just like I did with the truck and the car, AS FAST AS I CAN!

It doesn't take a friggin science degree or whatever to be financially secure when you have a decent paying job. I see so many people my age who drop out of school and just fuck around and not know what they wanna do.

[alarimer]

32. Exactly

Free. Failing that, encourage those who can't afford a college education right away to get their basics out of the way at community colleges.

[cgrindley]

33. Everyone should have the bare minimum of an AA right now (nt)

[pnwmom]

295. I guess Bill Gates should go back to school.

He might have done a lot better if he had gottenn an AA, poor guy.

[Thothmes]

54. job skills

Maybe the thing to do is to work on making a high school education the main source of an informed citizenry. A sizable number of people that graduate from high School have absolutly zero desire to go to Collage. Do we force them? Because of neglect of high schools, a sizable number of graduates are functionally illerate. Do we turn the American University/collage system into giant remedial education program. The worlds most powerful nation does have a valid need for plumbers, carpenters, mechanics, hair stylists, loggers, miners, and roustbouts. Education for education sake is an admirable goal, but in all practicality, the graduate that majored in mideval Lithuanian literature will probably wind up tossing burgers or answering a telephone.
Which one could do without the expenditure of several thousand dollars of the tax payers money.

[lumberjack_jeff]

100. Mostly agreed.

High school has become a giant sieve. It's a mechanism to siphon off those who are most educable for higher education. The goal isn't really to teach people any meaningful skills, it's to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I find the idea that education is important primarily because it exposes people to different ideas, cultural enlightenment and other squishy ideas to be a big rationalization by someone trying to justify the fact that their degree in french literature is not really necessary to perform their job at the title company.

[raccoon]

191. To some extent, they are now.

"Do we turn the American University/collage system into giant remedial education program."

Colleges do offer remedial reading and math classes.

[shanti]

82. "everybody"

are not college material.

[JerseygirlCT]

266. That's well said.

Unfortunate about the free part, though. I'm about to send my 1st off next year. It's going to be a big bite, I know it.

OTOH, it will also be the gift that keeps on giving.

[Squatch]

15. A Bachelor's degree today is the equivalent of a HS diploma

30 years ago. So, yes, everybody SHOULD go to college, and everybody should graduate from HS, and everybody should learn how to read, etc.

[cgrindley]

19. 20 years from now

people will have to have at least one MA just to get an entry level real job.

[Tesha]

24. In every way, unfortunately.

Americans; ignorant and proud of it.

(Not grumping at you, just grumpy in general.)

Tesha

[Squatch]

28. It's why foreign countries are outstripping us in terms of educated folks

Governments have a vested interest in seeing that their citizens are as educated as possible. By investing in education and making it available as a social benefit to citizenship, countries like India are reaping the rewards.

[Tesha]

30. Precisement. (NT)

[lumberjack_jeff]

83. Depends on the government.

Societies depend on an educated citizenry. Individual governments, less so. Authoritarians prefer ignorant followers.

[hedgehog]

224. Depends on the subject.

Believe me, a BS in Engineering is NOT the same as a high school diploma!

[bleedingheart]

43. people need to be able to separate themselves from the pack

just like the American Dream of home ownership...it isn't for everyone.

However even the kids who shouldn't go to college because they haven't a clue about what they want to do...will go because it is a 4 year delay of entry into the workforce...for some they wake up..they find a field of study..and they do well. Others graduate with a general degree still with no clue.

I went to college at 18 with a clear goal...to get my engineering degree...and I did.

To be honest...what I find a bit annoying is the folks who went to school for something..didn't like it..and they end up working in professions that they have no skills for..

[BadgerLaw2010]

45. Exactly.

People who don't particularly want to be at college lie around the party houses for four years, get drunk, graduate near the bottom of their class and wind up in some white-collar "job" that is entirely menial and a random match for what they might actually be skilled at.

Hell, some college *degrees* are considered borderline worthless. In the Wisconsin system, it's understood that you go to UW-Stevens Point or UW-Oshkosh because you want to party for four years. Everyone knows that, from employers to students to the professors who teach at Oshkosh and Stevens Point. It's unfortunate for people who go there who actually want to learn - but at least they can transfer out to Madison, which they most certainly should.

Even in Wisconsin, which is the only state that people even know what most of the "dash" campuses are, you absolutely do not want to be someone with Stevens Point on your diploma if you're applying for a job that Marquette and University of Wisconsin (as in Madison, the world-class one that people from Hong Kong pay their eyeteeth to send their kids to) grads want.

[MannyGoldstein]

13. Most "College" Jobs Are Easily Outsourced - Those Jobs Aren't

A lot of formerly high-paying jobs that required college, e.g., engineering and computer science, are having their wages crushed through outsourcing. Even some jobs that physicians do (e.g., radiology) are moving to $2-a-day microwage countries. Electricians, plumbers, and welders can't easily be outsourced.

[Hekate]

181. Damn straight. nt

[Tesha]

18. Why go to college? Why stay in nightschool? It is, after all, "Life During Wartime".

Seriously, the advice I'd give to someone these days is
"choose a field that can't be outsourced to a remote
location".

Plumbing and electrical work sound very appealing these
days for exactly that reason. Doctoring doesn't: "tele-
medicince" may yet outsource most of that work to Asia.

Tesha

[Sedona]

21. My 47 yr old husband is a highly trained flooring installation professional

and the wages collapsed after an influx of Mexican labor. Fortunately for us, he was highly trained enough to become employed with a flooring manufacturer as a technical adviser to their R&D dept and instructor of other installers and spends 3-4 nights a week on the road away from his family. Now he is trying to learn Spanish to properly communicate with the folks who took his job at half the pay.

..not making a political statement about immigration, just stating the facts of what happened in my family. DH is also halfway to a business degree degree with University of Phoenix (paid from by his employer) with a laptop, using all the downtime at night.

If you have a choice, go into debt for the degree if you have to. I have two college age daughters and only one is really making it The one who chose to stay in school pulled in 15K last month, the other just got laid off in the mortgage industry and is waiting tables again.

Edited to add.... he found the new job on Monster.com

[The Vinyl Ripper]

49. Your husband is lucky..

Carpetlaying is *really* hard on the body, particularly the knees.

IMO, getting a better job is really more about interviewing well than anything else. If you are outgoing, confident and assured you have a much better chance than someone who is every bit as skillful but is shy and retiring.

Personality counts for far more in the world of business than most of us would like to believe.

All you have to do is read "Dilbert" for a while to figure that out.

[lumberjack_jeff]

86. But before the interview...

... your resume must get past the scanner software which searches for the words; "bachelors' degree".

If you don't have a degree, you have to knock on a bunch of physical doors.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

101. Where did I say *anything* about a degree?

I was just making a general observation.

Most jobs in the USA are never put up for a formal hiring process anyway. Informal, word of mouth, hiring is responsible for an amazingly huge percentage of new hires.

[raccoon]

192. Right on about the "interviewing well." nt

[treestar]

110. He moved up though

That was the natural progress. The Mexicans are not doing better than he; they are still at the bottom.

Americans are so lucky to be on top of the economic pyramid.

Even outsourcing would do no good if there was no market, and we buy the goods produced, so we must have a job or we couldn't be doing it. We have higher paying ones, too.

I'll never understand why the American middle class gets so resentful of those at the bottom and thinks they should keep those jobs, too, and leave them empty! Just in case, I guess. But then how do the businesses function in the meantime?

Which I know you were not saying - I am answering the inevitable arguments arising that are always popping up whenever any nonAmerican getting a job is discussed.

[mondo joe]

22. Either approach (college or trade) is a legitimate personal choice. The one distinction

I would make is that I think college probably offers a greater range of choices down the road than a trade school does, but that may not matter to the individual.

[aikoaiko]

26. As a college professor, I tend to agree with you.

Not everyone should go to college. Not even everyone who wants to go to college should go because they just can't cut it. Don't get me wrong -- if someone wants to try college I'm all for it, but I've seen too many students struggle with college and drop out once they hit the advanced courses.

College is not better than learning a trade depending on the criteria. Some people are motivated to get a degree in a discipline because they are interested in the topic (which I generally applaud), but the average starting salary might not pay the bills afterward and that can be soul crushing.

On the other hand, going into college with eyes wide open about the economics of various career paths is very important. Most people don't know what they are getting themselves into.

Trades are not as good as they seem either when physical ailments associated with injurires, sickness, or aging kick in. I have friends who made really good money (relatively) when we were in our 20 and early 30s while I got my BS, MA, and Ph.D., but now they can't physically do some of the jobs because of physical injury and wear and tear. One or two of those friends started they own businesses and now have other young men doing to hard labor, but not all can be small business owners.

[BlooInBloo]

104. Id' guesstimate that 50-75% of college students shouldn't be there.

[nealmhughes]

252. My poor brother in law is in a trade and owns his own auto parts shop.

He is on the floor right now from lying under a dashboard for 4 hours day before yesterday and he is only 45. He is smart and invests with my sister in fixer uppers, and they own some dozen rental homes, as nothing is selling right now at all. He is worn out from hard manual labor, but has an excellent income, actually much better than all my acadmeic friends save those who are full professors. He is grooming my nephew to take over the labor any week now and he do the books and answer the phones, and he is I repeat, 45!

I have seen so many students who did not desire to really be in college for the learning experience, rather as a middle class rite of passage that their parents insisted upon. One boy wanted to be a welder and took a whole slew of metal art sculpting classes and went to night school without his parents knowing it and finally when he was in the union, told them he wasn't going to be a lawyer that he hated the law and wanted to be the best welder in town and make his sculpture on the side and do ornamental work. I secretly wanted to encourage him, but had to play neutral, even though I was pretty see-through.

I don't know how many students I have done a literature search for a paper that is due in a few hours or the next morning only to have them scream, "I have to read all of this?" Answer: "No, only if you want to get a passing grade and not be labelled a slackard by the grader, and not necessarily all of it. . ."

I am reminded of Russell Ackoff's system's theory for education:
Data
Information
Understanding
Knowledge
Wisdom.

It seems that it stops too often at Google.com or JSTOR and ends with the data and a superficial inkling of information.

I do secretly wish I were a cabinet maker in all honesty.

[alarimer]

31. Why not both?

College is an experience in and of itself. Education needs to be valued for it's own sake. You don't learn critical thinking skills in trade school. You are not exposed to Shakespeare or Noam Chomsky or Darwin. College is not about (or shouldn't be) about getting a fucking high paying job.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

42. Critical thiinking should be taught in primary and secondary school.

Without critical thinking all you are doing is regurgitating memorized information on demand..

Which is what NCLB is all about.

[The2ndWheel]

47. Which is what would happen if you're taught how to think critically

You would just regurgitate what was on the board.

If we want people to think for themselves, we can't teach them how.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

55. Thinking for yourself can indeed be taught..

That is exactly what critical thinking is all about, thinking for yourself and not accepting things that do not make sense to you unless or until they are adequately explained.

[The2ndWheel]

64. It doesn't need to be taught though

If you're teaching something, it's coming from somewhere. Whether it's how the person teaching it does things, or how the system within which the teaching occurs does things, that teaching is coming from somewhere, other than from the person being taught.

I just don't see how you can teach someone to think for themselves. If the result of teaching people how to think was that everyone thought for themselves, wouldn't the world be a much different place? Would schools even exist in such a world?

[The Vinyl Ripper]

67. Critical thinking is the application of logic to information..

The great majority of people truly suck at logic.

Instruction in formal logic should begin quite early and continue all the way through secondary school.

If our citizens were instructed in logic, many of them would not fall for the absolute BS being thrown around by the MSM and the neocons.

[cgrindley]

71. The last time formal logic was routinely taught in school

was in 1573. Most people do not get any training in formal logic until they arrive in college.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

76. 1573? Exactly?

Can you give me a cite for that?

[cgrindley]

89. Okay, 1574

Don't you mean a citation?

[libnnc]

92. Yes, I believe he does mean "citation"

but I'm just an MA US History student...

what the fuck do I know...

[cgrindley]

96. So what do you blame the decline in American education on? (nt)

[libnnc]

107. Personally, I blame it on

the way our system is set up to begin with.

I think the Europeans did it correctly. Trade school education should be free. Public university education should be free too.

We need History professors just as much as we need electricians. It shouldn't be either/or.

[treestar]

119. What about the market, though?

Rather than the taxpayers, the employers will pay for it, since that way you won't have the public creating say too many lawyers and not enough nurses.

It should all be done by an apprentice system, so that the need for the skill is identified first. The problem with our system is we get some vague idea that we want to be a teacher, plumber, etc., and then go from there, assuming there is going to be a market for it and feeling cheated if there isn't, and blaming the employers, when we really should blame the consumers, and yet it's up to them what they want to spend their money on.

To assure a market, you have to pretty much go into a medical field, and these days, those skills could change.

[cgrindley]

126. I studied in the UK

and although the universities are freeish or at least were free, getting into them was no easy matter, and students were streamed from a very early age. There were also very strenuous tests that would make huge life choices for you if you fucked up.

It wasn't a matter of everyone getting to go to college, as a matter of fact, the 2002 US census says 50.6% of college aged kids started college, whereas in the UK during the same time period, it was only 35%.

http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/faqs/showFaq.asp?ID=7#Whatproportionof17to30yearoldscurrentlyenterhighereducation

[The Vinyl Ripper]

154. A site would be good too..

As in website..

[treestar]

143. I don't think I got that in college

There was probably an option to take such a course, but nothing made me take it. Plenty of college students get through without taking a single class from the philosophy department.

I have met illogical PhDs. They could do their job and that was it. Explain all the Republican engineers and computer scientists - able to do their jobs, making plenty of money, and adopting the right wing economic philosophy that they earned their way to the top and the poor should just starve.

This kind of education has to come from elsewhere these days.

[cgrindley]

152. A number of universities are trying to improve GEN ED

requirements nowadays, matter of fact, it's one of the real hot topics in the industry. I remember having to take political science, history, philosophy, English, French, theater, classics, anthropology in my first year or so... then I moved into my major... but all those gen ed courses were a good thing. I think that the movement towards more gen ed is going to be successful. I think that students realize that they need it.

[raccoon]

You think TPTB would let that happen?

"If the result of teaching people how to think was that everyone thought for themselves, wouldn't the world be a much different place? "

[The2ndWheel]

277. No

That's why the result of teaching people how to think isn't to allow them to think for themselves.

Although the world would be a different place if there was no formal education taught by TPTB, in order to perpetuate TPTB. Everyone needs a formal education, because the world is already set up, owned, packaged, and sold. So then if you don't get that education, you're left in poverty and failure(with the exception here and there). Then even if you have that education, it's never quite enough. Like has been pointed out, a HS diploma no longer means much. Pretty soon(if not already) a normal 4 year college education will mean didly. Then the next rung on the ladder won't be enough. So we'll end up chasing a phantom. Everyone will become more standardized. There will be fewer ways of living or being in the world. All in the name of efficiency.

[cgrindley]

60. Critical thinking requires background knowledge

a good deal of rote learning is vital. People need a mass of information as well as the ability to sort through it and to evaluate new information.


NCLB for all of its faults is a hell of a lot better than what was in place before NCLB. I support it with only minor reservations.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

65. Please show me where I said information was unimportant.

Of course information is important, but the ability to properly process information is equally important and that part of a proper education is sorely lacking today.

Let's not forget that mandatory education was originally designed to churn out workers for the factories of the industrial revolution. Critical thinking is not a requirement in a factory worker so that portion of education has always lagged behind.

[cgrindley]

69. Well you said

"regurgitating memorized information on demand" and that's pretty obviously a negative take on rote memory work, not to mention your comments on NCLB.

Rote memory work is a vital part of education, at least equal to critical thinking skills. Actually, without the rote memory work, critical thinking is probably worthless. The building blocks must come first. Testing for those building blocks through NCLB and enforcing schools to at least live up to those very modest goals (and they are very modest goals) is at least better than the worthless touchy feely bullshit that has been going on in schools since the late 1960s.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

84. In other words...

You cannot show me where I said information was not important.

My daughter graduated HS about ten years ago and I helped her quite a bit with her homework, it really didn't seem all that much easier than when I was in HS in the 60's.

Literature, history, composition, chemistry, biology, algebra, trig, geometry.. They were all there and she failed first semester algebra three times despite my best efforts to help her.

And then the fourth time, with a non-coach for a teacher, she made an A in the class. Go figure.

[cgrindley]

88. But but but

if a perfectly average child fails first semester algebra three times, it means that her previous years of education didn't properly prepare her for the work. The school system is broken.

You characterized memorized information as something to be "regurgitated" that is barfed up, puked up... that is a value judgment. It means that you don't value memorized information.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

117. My daughter is an excellent writer and a talent musician..

A lot of people have a very hard time with math.

She could do the algebra if I sat with her and prompted her "what come next now?" but once she got in the classroom it all went to hell.

The flip side of the coin is that you could have sent me to Juilliard and it would have done me no good at all, I lack musical talent completely.

[pitohui]

245. writer and musician are rather unfortunate talents to have tho

as a former writer myself, all i can say is, it would be better to have another gift that isn't shared by millions of people, most of whom will never earn any significant $$ from their gift, because the market is sooooo over-saturated with talent

it makes you hate your talent and thus yourself after awhile

very few get into julliard, your daughter was VERY lucky as well as gifted -- sure you know that, though!

[The Vinyl Ripper]

293. I think you misread me..

My daughter didn't go to Juilliard, I just said it would be a total waste for me to go there.

And it is possible for writers to do well for themselves, it's hard but so is damn near everything else.

Among other things though, my daughter is a very good salesperson, bookkeeper and manager.

So she is multitalented.

Just don't ask her to do any algebra. :D

[Iris]

123. That's what I was going to say.

My husband is a carpenter with a master's degree and makes plenty of money working for rich people who enjoy having conversations with him as well as appreciate his work.

[JerseygirlCT]

267. Yes! Exactly!

"College is not about (or shouldn't be) about getting a fucking high paying job."

I've spoken to some college graduates who have decided that technical skills would enhance their college education. They go to trade school after graduation (sometimes years after). That's smart, IMO -- now they're looking for specific skills that are taught in a trade school.

College and trade school are only analogs in the sense that people might do them after high school. Really, they're not the same thing at all.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[raccoon]

41. I didn't say college was a bad thing.

Your post sounds like you're somewhat lacking in respect. Reading comprehension as well.

[libnnc]

35. Because I suck at fixing things.

I'll be better at teaching college freshmen why they should give a shit about US History

...especially since as citizens, we keep falling for the same fucking nonsense over and over and over and over.....

[bunkerbuster1]

37. dupe, deleted

[WinkyDink]

38. If it's possible to go to college/university, the exposure to brilliant minds is worth it.

But then, I'm a Liberal Arts kind o'gal.

[Katherine Brengle]

151. Have you been to a state university recently?

That "exposure to brilliant minds" is a thing of the past.

Most of the students are braindead robots. Most of the professors know it and don't offer a challenge.

It's a sad state of affairs.

[WinkyDink]

235. Let me keep my illusions about my Alma Mater, PSU ('71) ! :)

Once upon a time John Barth taught there.

[JVS]

40. Maybe one could earn money in the porn industry!

[ecstatic]

46. Umm... those are jobs "Americans won't do"

The people I know who do trade jobs are SUFFERING.

[gatorboy]

48. You don't have to go to school to become a electrician?

Try taking one of the tests required for employment some time. It's not easy!

[cgrindley]

61. I think they do the courses for it in college

I had a buddy who apprenticed in sheet metal and they made him take a few college courses for that.

[gatorboy]

66. There's certification required to become an electrician.

Plus training depends on what field you're going in (Commercial, industrial, etc.). Training that takes time, money..I only bring it up because the way the OP has worded their argument makes it sound like all you have to do is get your Cracker Jack prize and *poof* you're an electrician. Plus it sounded a little insulting; as if there's no work involved in the training.

EDIT: If the OP did not intend for it to sound insulting, I apologize in advance....

[raccoon]

118. Thanks for the apology. No, I certainly didn't intend to imply that those occupations

that I referred to didn't require training.

[conscious evolution]

196. I did not go to school for it

and I have a HV Masters liscence and am preparing for my LV test.
As for those employment test,all the answers are in either the NEC codebook or the Ugly's Handbook.Every electrical test I have ever taken was open book,including the masters test.Knowing every detail about electrical codes is impossible because there is so much of it. Many states and employers are satisfied if you at least know where to find the correct answers to problems.

Actually,some questions answers are not found in any book.Questions like 'what color is a green ground screw?' are on those tests just to weed out complete idiots.You would be surprised how many people get that one wrong.

[gatorboy]

211. They must've gone harder on my Father-In-Law

Closed book tests for him on several job interviews (Recently looking for work after a factory shut down). But then he's a certified industrial electrician if that makes a difference compared to commercial (Which does in for some reason because he apparently can't get a commercial electrician job without recertification in that particular field).

[w8liftinglady]

215. Around here,you have to at least have a certificate from a community college

https://www1.dcccd.edu/cat0708/programs/dp_toc.cfm?loc=0

[fasttense]

51. I didn't go to college to earn money or get a job.

I went to college to learn how to learn. Though I have never really "used" my degree in Psychology, I never regretted it for a minute.

My first year in college was awful. I found out that unlike in high school, I had to study. By my second year, I realized that I was paying for classes that I was not attending. How stupid is that? So I buckled under and never missed a class after that.

I have walked away from college with the ability to understand just about anything from a book or other source material. I've taught myself quilting, cooking, stain-glass making and more, just from reading books. I've learned economic theories, political science, physics and marketing methods just from identifying and carefully studying the right source materials. I think college was a large contributer in helping me to learn on my own. It helped me to logically think out a process. It helped me to break down and focus on the most important aspects of a subject. It even taught me my limits such as my difficulty in thinking in three dimensions and my inability to learn simply from listening (I'm a visual learner).

I agree with the professor that posted above. College is not for everyone. Only those people who want to learn should go to college.

[shrike]

52. I'm a college gal, married to a blue-collar guy

And I see both sides of the spectrum.

My husband didn't go to college for a lot of reasons: very young first marriage, family to support. He is the brightest man I know; very well-read, used to read MIT's magazine for fun.

I know a lot of skilled tradesmen guys who are very interesting individuals. A lot of them are union, and they see through the crap, something my "highly educated," right-wing family can't seem to do.

That said, I think there is a difference between education and skills. Skills are what make us money; education is how we learn to think. I think we need both.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

72. What most people who are not familar with trades do not realize is this...

It's impossible to bullshit your way through a skilled trade, you can either do a competent job or you cannot. The sheep and the goats are very easily sorted from each other in the trades.

From what I have seen that is not always true in the white collar world where you are very often dealing with intangibles and job performance can be very subjective.

Is the CEO making thirty million a year really six hundred time smarter and more competent than a carpenter making fifty thousand a year? Or is he simply better connected and better at climbing the ladder by stepping on the faces of those below him?

The further you go up the employment ladder the less competence seems to have to do with remuneration. CEO's of companies losing millions or billions are given lavish salaries and outrageous bonuses for *losing money*. That would never happen a lot further down the rungs.

[raccoon]

77. Great post!

"The further you go up the employment ladder the less competence seems to have to do with remuneration. "

Amen/Ramen to that!

[theHandpuppet]

127. Great post!

I also get more than a bit irritated with some folks who look down at tradesmen who work with their hands, regardless of the skill it takes to be an great carpenter, electrician, etc.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

137. I made a point a long time ago with a RW radio talk show host..

Who sneered that those who "make money with their hands".

When I got on the air I told him that a pair of hands without a mind to operate them were useful for food, fertilizer or decoration.

He had absolutely no reply for that.

[shrike]

58. btw, you have to be able to read and write to get into an apprenticeship program

Not to mention be able to do math -- lots of it.

The guys I know who run local trade programs are tearing their hair out because potential apprentices can't even do simple math. The basic skills of most HS graduates are dismal.

When DH was younger, he was sent to school for engineering classes, mathematics, all kinds of stuff. My BIL was recently sent to robotics school.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

129. Yep...

Just about any competent tradesman, plumber, electrician, carpenter, pipefitter, tinbender etc. can add, subtract, multiply and divide fractions in their head quickly and accurately.

I have a relative with a small painting business and although I'm better at math beyond arithmetic than he is he can do mental arithmetic far faster than I. He figures a lot of blueprints and does all the calculation in his head, writing down all the answers.

The reason the trade school students can't do math is that all the ones who can do math are college bound.

[TlalocW]

68. What if instead of becoming an electrician, plumber, welder, etc

You want to become an electrical engineer, civil engineer, chemist, etc?

While a truly devoted person could go to the library and read all the books for those professions and become as adept at the mental part of those jobs, there're still the hands-on parts that they won't be able to match what colleges do because colleges have the budgets for electrical labs and equipment or has the chemicals, fume hoods, centrifuges and other equipment that would be too costly for a person on their own to buy.

TlalocW

[cgrindley]

74. There's also the simple matter that they won't just give you

your P.Eng. certification because you're really well read or that you somehow managed to perfectly replicate all of the experiments from a university lab in your garage with a home made fume hood. Professions require degrees. That's just the way it is.

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. I've known lots of PE's without degrees

Their skills were in no way inferior to their degreed peers. They all take the same test and do the same work and their opinions have the same legal weight.

I applied to take the Mechanical PE exam a long time ago, but couldn't only because my boss wasn't a PE.

[cgrindley]

99. Really?

That doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the system. Is that only in the US?

[lumberjack_jeff]

108. I don't know about other countries...

... in fact, I don't know about other states than Washington.

Having worked with lots of PE's, I have a high degree of confidence in the system. They all took the same test and they are all bound by the same code of conduct, degreed or not. It's a meritocracy. If this PE track has fallen into disuse, it's because there's a glut of degreed engineers.

One has only to go to a few parent-teacher conferences to see that a degree isn't a guarantee of vocational fitness.

[bleedingheart]

115. I don't know where that guy is getting his info...but to get a PE here in the US

How does one become a Professional Engineer?
There are four steps to become a licensed Professional Engineer:

• graduate from an ABET accredited engineering program

• pass the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam

• work as an engineer for four years

• pass the Professional Engineering(PE) exam (you cannot take the PE exam without first passing the FE exam)

http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensure_for_engineers/#what

How do I get licensed?

Each state and territory varies slightly, but in general, there is a four-step process required to obtain engineering licensure (see below).

Step 1: Graduation

The first step is graduating from an ABET-accredited engineering program at a college or university. ABET stands for Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, the nationally recognized accrediting organization for engineering and technology curricula.


Step 2: FE Exam

The first exam in the licensure process is the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE). This exam is offered in April and October every year. Most students take the exam right before graduation or soon after while the technical information they've studied is still fresh in their minds. Once you pass the exam, you are classified as an intern, also known as Engineering Intern (EI) or Engineer-in-Training (EIT).


Step 3: Work Experience

After passing the FE exam, you will continue your journey toward professional licensure by gaining engineering experience. Many jurisdictions have specific requirements about the type of experience you need to gain. Most require that you gain experience under the supervision of someone who is already licensed, and that your experience involve increasing levels of responsibility. Once you begin work, contact your licensing board to find out what experience is needed and talk with professional engineers in your company to find out how you can gain this experience.


Step 4: PE Exam

Once you have gained the appropriate experience required, you can take the second exam in the licensure process, the Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE). This exam is given in a variety of engineering disciplines. Most disciplines are offered in both April and October, but some are offered only in October.


Now if some states have really loose restrictions...that is a shame....but every PE I know has at the very least a BS in engineering.

[lumberjack_jeff]

153. "That guy" got it here.

http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/engineerslandsurveyors/elreq.html

Professional engineer

Before getting a license, you must meet all of the following requirements:

* Pass the EIT (Engineer In Training exam).
* Pass the PE (Principles and Practices of Engineering exam).
* Have 8 years of professional-level experience under the direct supervision of a licensed engineer. (Education in an ABET-accredited program may count for up to 4 years of this experience.)

Note: For more information about exam requirements and schedules, see examinations.
Engineer-in-training certificate

Before you may apply for certification as an engineer-in-training, you must have either:

* received a bachelor’s degree in an approved engineering curriculum.
* obtained senior standing in an approved engineering curriculum.
* OR
* four years of experience (education, work experience, or both).

In Washington, you can get a PE without a degree. I don't know about the rules anywhere else.

[conscious evolution]

194. You would be surprised

at how many electricians there are that are more knowledgable then EE's.I know I have to correct or reengineer at least half of all prints and plans that I have to work from.Especially when it comes to industrial projects.You would not beleive some of the fucked up designs I have come across.
One of the problems,I believe,is that in the old days engineers were the guys who spent their childhoods tearing into old radios or tv's and stuff like that.Too many of todays engineers seem to be in the field only because their HS guidance counselor told them that engineers have a high starting salary.They do not have the requisite aptitude required as opposed to the ones who live and breath their field from a young age.

[lumberjack_jeff]

212. Exactly. n/t

[bleedingheart]

112. you are full of it...

How does one become a Professional Engineer?
There are four steps to become a licensed Professional Engineer:

• graduate from an ABET accredited engineering program (so your friends needed the degree)

• pass the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam

• work as an engineer for four years

• pass the Professional Engineering(PE) exam (you cannot take the PE exam without first passing the FE exam)

I am an engineer and to become a PE you need to get the BS in engineering first.

[cgrindley]

135. Thanks for that, I didn't think Canada was that much different than the US

I lived with a bunch of engineering students when I was an undergraduate. They partied but studied hard. None of them ever got their PE's as they were all shuffled into management positions after a few years on the job, or weren't really cut out for engineering in the first place and changed careers to programming.

[bleedingheart]

144. The key to getting the PE is to take the EIT test as soon as you get out of college

because once you start working in a specific discipline...you are focused on it and not the "general principles" of your field.

Most of my friends who sought the PE took those exams immediately and most of them are PE's today. EE's, ME's and CE's typically get the licensure...and for some it is a requirement for them to even get some jobs.

I work in a very specialized niche of engineering...it is not so important for me...but in spite of it..I have done quite well.
I am looking into getting a graduate degree now that the kids are older...so back to school I go...but this time my company is paying..

[lumberjack_jeff]

159. In the US professional licensing is administered by the various states.

In Washington, the rules may be different than others.

[lumberjack_jeff]

158. No, I'm not.

http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/engineerslandsurveyors/elreq.html

Professional engineer

Before getting a license, you must meet all of the following requirements:

* Pass the EIT (Engineer In Training exam).
* Pass the PE (Principles and Practices of Engineering exam).
* Have 8 years of professional-level experience under the direct supervision of a licensed engineer. (Education in an ABET-accredited program may count for up to 4 years of this experience.)

Note: For more information about exam requirements and schedules, see examinations.
Engineer-in-training certificate

Before you may apply for certification as an engineer-in-training, you must have either:

* received a bachelor’s degree in an approved engineering curriculum.
* obtained senior standing in an approved engineering curriculum.
* OR
* four years of experience (education, work experience, or both).

But you indirectly prove one of my pet peeves about "the educated". Education confers moral authority to pass judgment and assume mastery of subjects unrelated to ones area of domain expertise.

[bleedingheart]

169. show me the statistics on who takes the PE exams...how many

of them are self-taught?

I work in engineering, I have an engineering degree from an ABET accredited school, I will tell you first hand that one of my pet peeves are folks who decided that their degree in "music" wasn't making enough money so they decided to "try" engineering. One person who managed to get hired was so obtuse about the work he was expected to do and understand that myself and another coworker had to take over his work and all he did was collect a paycheck until he got fired. Another decided that she would try to go back to school to prove to the rest of us that anyone could do it...flunked college algebra (which this person had to take since she had decided it wasn't necessary when attending high school)...and meanwhile was absolutely useless to us in our department.

I am a little tired of people telling me that the 4 years I busted my ass studying were for nothing because anyone can do anything without a proper education. I have learned that in a lot of cases those people are deluding themselves.

I have known some very intelligent self-taught people, one was a maintenance technician in a factory. The man was a genius and I learned a lot from him about the specific industry I worked in at that time...but his biggest regret was not going to college because he could only get certain types of jobs as a result.

[lumberjack_jeff]

208. Why would I do that?

You said that you couldn't be a non-degreed PE, the relative proportions of people attaining PE cert is not relevant to this discussion, and it's not a point I'm inclined to argue.

I worked in the engineering field for 20 years. After about 12 or so, the work you do is indistinguishable from the work done by the degreed engineers in the neighboring cubicles. I'm not self-taught, I'm workplace-taught, and I did plenty of educating of newly-hired degreed engineers who knew less than I would expect. This education includes the one who was convinced he could save tons of money on his electric bills by running a very large generator from a lawnmower motor. Yes, his title was "engineer" and yes, he claimed to have a degree, but not in engineering. I told him that he was a fool, but what did I know, I was only 19 and didn't have a degree nor the title.

That anecdote was almost 30 years ago, but little has changed. Because of technology, he'd get an interview for a job in the engineering field (by virtue of his degree) while I won't (despite 25 years of relevant experience). That's life. I am a self-employed steel detailer now, and working from home is the best gig possible. I'll never go back to a cubicle, but that's moot.

Like you, I'm tired of workplace attitudes. I'm tired of people telling me that decades spent in the field are meaningless to vocational fitness. I'm tired of explaining to a 23 year old engineer that, yes, technically, a 3/16" both-sides all-around fillet weld would be structurally adequate (provided that it were radiologically tested) to the joint they are designing, but that it's irrelevant because there are no 24" tall welders available who could fit inside the box to complete the weld.

There are some things that school can't teach. That's why they need me.

[bleedingheart]

217. just because someone has a work title with the word "engineer"

that does not mean they are qualified.

"Yes, his title was "engineer" and yes, he claimed to have a degree, but not in engineering. I told him that he was a fool, but what did I know, I was only 19 and didn't have a degree nor the title."

If the fellow did not have an engineering degree, he wasn't an engineer.

I have met too many people who claim they are engineers and many are not..just because the HR department decided it would boost their morale to give them a fancy title.

Workplace experience is important, there is no denying that. The professors I learned the most from in college were those who had worked for a living.

When a company hires a young person straight out of college they will need some training until they learn what that company needs. I went to an engineering school that required all students in certain disciplines to get CAD training (ME, CE, IE's) however I met folks from other universities that did not get that training because it wasn't part of the curriculum.

Also, folks who are not up to grade end up finding other things to do. One fellow I worked with could not handle the work, he ended up in sales...and makes more money than the rest of us geeks. Sales...that is where the money is...and you don't have to be a genius to do it...in fact being a schmuck without a conscience is an asset.

[lumberjack_jeff]

218. A degree, in isolation, does not an engineer make.

If the fellow did not have an engineering degree, he wasn't an engineer.

I'm sure this is news to the biographers of George Westinghouse and Thomas Edison. And also to the non-degreed Professional Engineers licensed by the states.

[cgrindley]

73. Most of the posters in this thread are way over 40

and if they're advising 16 year olds to think of options other than college... that's pretty much child abuse. The world has really changed and absolutely everyone nowadays needs a college education or the only thing in their future is failure and poverty. This country is lagging behind so many other countries in terms of education and a high school diploma is worthless. Young kids today need a college education to at least the BA level. It's really irresponsible to suggest otherwise to a kid.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

120. But college today is really a trade school

It's not college as previous generations knew it, where someone could major in history and be hired for management training by a major corporation without taking more than a couple of business courses.

[Iris]

124. yes - a trade school where you learn no trade.

[JerseygirlCT]

270. Ah well, I hope that's not always the case.

I always felt badly for the kids who were majoring in business b/c they felt they had to in order to get a job.

Damn. I loved my English and Drama majors. If I'd had time, I would have added history and music to the mix, too. In fact, I could have happily been a perpetual undergrad.

Learning for its own sake is important to me. We're encouraging our child to attend a liberal arts college or university. I want studies to be a thing of joy, not dull prep for a "job".

[lumberjack_jeff]

163. Trade school = child abuse?

:eyes:

Those of us "way over 40" recognize that for some kids, completion of high school is not a gimme.

But I can remember when I thought that grownups were ignorant too.

[cgrindley]

179. Yeah

it's not going to cut it. It's not going to get them a house. The world has changed. Surely you can see that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

209. Sure it can. It hasn't changed that much. n/t

[cgrindley]

214. Go ahead, think that if you like

you're entitled to think whatever you want.

[lumberjack_jeff]

219. I'm entitled to my own opinions, but these opinions comply with facts.

There are careers which don't require degrees which pay a living wage - enough to own a home. This doesn't mean that a degree isn't a worthy goal for most, if not all kids.

[cgrindley]

230. You've got your head in the sand

those jobs are going to vanish. Don't you see that the whole country is Flint circa 1975? Why can't people see what is rumbling down the tracks towards them?

[lumberjack_jeff]

234. Maybe. If that's true, why do you think that a degree is a golden ticket?

Most realtors, car salesmen, mechanics, electricians, plumbers, cooks, merchants, welders, fishermen, loggers and carpenters in my acquaintance own their own homes. A financial catastrophe which precludes them from homeownership won't skip those with degrees.

[cgrindley]

249. It's not that it's a golden ticket, it's that it's a ticket

you're still talking right now. You have to start thinking about the children. Why isn't anyone thinking about the children?

[lumberjack_jeff]

251. The only scenario in which no one is hiring grocery clerks or plumbers...

... is because no one's eating or shitting. :shrug:

There are no guarantees, for anyone.

[cgrindley]

257. Why don't you get it?

guest workers making sub minimum wage. these jobs are going to be "insourced". they're going to vanish. skilled plumbers will make 5 bucks an hour. why can't you see this?

[Iris]

269. When's that going to happen? Because I've been hearing it for years now.

The last I checked, computer programming jobs were going out of the country and now we have plumbers coming in.

Does ANYONE on DU have a job? Or are the freepers right?

[Politicub]

79. I would suck at learning a trade

Just not mechanical enough

And no one would hire me - i would be the worst plumber EVER

[KillCapitalism]

81. I am going both routes at the time.

I have a BS in History and Criminal Justice. I planned to go to law school immediately after undergrad, by my father became very ill during my senior year and had to quit working. For this reason, I was unable to afford law school, so I worked after graduation. I didn't want to become a teacher or a police officer, so I found a position as a youth advocate in a family court system. I did this for a few years and just got tired of it and disillusioned. Just last month, I have started with my local I.B.E.W. in a residential electrician apprenticeship. I'm enjoying it greatly and learning a lot so far. My beginning wages as an apprentice are higher than my old job, and the benefits are much better. I enjoyed my college experience as I felt it expanded my mind and helped me grow, but I feel I have a brighter future working as a skilled tradesman. There are a few other fellow electrician apprentices who are college educated also. One is a former middle school teacher, and one is a former IT professional who was laid off their job. They also feel the same as I do as far as their future goes.

[TreasonousBastard]

87. You're confusing education wtih job traniing, something...

that's done a lot lately.

Personally, I believe in everyone getting as much education as possible, and I kinda like the idea of discussing Kant with my plumber or auto mechanic.

As far as how to arrange to make a living, things are changing so much that any advice will probably turn out ot be wrong. Auto mechanics is still one thing I suggest, since in a lot of places they are in extremely short supply, curiously enough. Not that long ago the market was flooded with gearheads showing their high school shop teachers how to REALLY rebuild a Hemi.

What happened to high school shop, anyway?

Yeah, EVERY vocation or profession we can talk about now will likely feel some pressure from those furriners, and ther ewill be new ones coming up, possibly even invented by them furriners. So, rather than trty to predict the future, the only advice I could seriously give would be to learn languages and travel a lot.

Whoever is multiculturally comfortable in the future will have a huge leg up on everyone else no matter what they do.

[bleedingheart]

175. I may get flamed for this but there are some colleges that focus more on

"job training" than actually educating people.

and it isn't always about going to the most expensive college either...some really big schools do a crappy job of educating people to think critically.

[treestar]

93. It is a knee jerk thing

and it doesn't necessarily apply any more.

We should make the employers pay for the training, seriously. We make it a gift to them and there is no guarantee that we can keep the job forever.

If you go to college for job training, it should only be to become self employed.

Apprenticing makes more sense. The employer to expand the business needs the people, make them do the training.

College traditionally had the goal of providing a liberal arts background, that's fine. But go to college for that motive, then. If you're going to college just for job purposes, you're letting the employers notchy the competition up and take up what would be your starting capital right there.

Give the kid the $$ it would have cost him to go to college, get him/her electrician's training or whatever it is, and let him start up on his own. If we looked at it this way, the corporations wouldn't have so much control of our lives.

[NotGivingUp]

165. EXACTLY! Invest the thousands of dollars in your own business

instead of spending it on college where you are just training for the POSSIBILITY to be someone's corporate slave.

[pitohui]

248. have your own business and get no health insurance and no paid holidays and no (401)K

if you plan to live past 40, i sure wouldn't put my "thousands" into starting my own business because one day you re going to try to buy private health insurance and find out that you can't or the insurance they sell you isn't worth a crap and there is no one standing behind you to stick up for you

starting your own business these days is suicide for most people, keep in mind, 4 out of 5 start-ups fail, so you don't even get any extra $$$ while you're young to make up for not having insurance when you're middle-aged

[lumberjack_jeff]

278. Exactly.

Microsoft wants more H-1b workers?

Is your training program maxed out? How many employees are you putting through computer science school? None?

Sorry, no more immigrant workers for you.

[AngryAmish]

98. The world needs ditch diggers too

The problem is many of the manual trades take a toll on the body. Knees, shoulders and backs. A lot of guys who do the trades are shot by age 50 especially if they smoke and get fat -- it really takes an extra toll. You are encouraged to ignore injuries even in union environment. they add up over time.

Truck driving also takes a toll on the body -- bad backs, overweight, heart disease from bad food on the road, etc.

If one gets a job that pays well for little work with no physical toll then one can enjoy retirement.

[EnviroBat]

113. Hmmm, for me college was overrated.

I dropped out after going back a few times. Every time it was the same experience. High tuition for very low quality education. Often the professors have no ability to teach. Just because you're proficient at something, doesn't necessarily mean you're qualified to teach it, (although it should be that way). I got really tired of being treated as just another number with a student loan. I found a job in a niche sector of the I.T. world, and in 9 years I've achieved Director status working for one of the countries biggest state universities. It took a great deal of work and patience to get here, but I'm at 90k with no degree. It's not for everyone, and if I hadn't fallen into this line of work, I'd be in some skilled trade. I really don't feel colleges have your future in mind, but they like that tuition. I'm a fan of the California education model. If college was more affordable I'd take classes again. Oh wait, 100% tuition is one of my benefits now, maybe I'll take some theater classes!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

122. Yes, I wish that students who have no academic interests at age 18

would take a vocational course and THEN go back to take courses in fields that they're interested in.

I've known people who have done it, and they're excellent students, because they're really interested in what they're learning, plus they have the kind of life experience that few 18-year-olds can boast.

[treestar]

171. I know I would have been a much better student if I had done that

Going straight in because you are supposed to at the age of 18 really isn't that good a preparation for the real world.

And once you have been in the real world, your intellectual interests expand greatly and have a better basis. I think if I could do college again now, I might actually pay attention in class and would enjoy it.

[Wiley50]

114. As Someone Who Thought Exactly That 35 Years Ago

and spent 30 years installing carpet.

When your body wears out, like mine has you are stuck on SSI Disability

like I am

[Lydia Leftcoast]

116. As a former college professor, I agree

The average college these days is full of students who have no academic interests, are bored with their classes, uninterested in the cultural life on the campus or in the surrounding communities, and are in college simply because that's what middle class youth are supposed to do. You hear them say things like, "All I want to do is get out of here"--as sophomores.

They're the ones who binge drink, cheat, argue about 1/10 of a grade point, try to figure out "what the professor wants" instead of how to learn the material, and attempt to wriggle out of course requirements.

They're not stupid; they're just not academically oriented, and even if they major in "international business" or "corporate health and fitness" or some other trendy-sounding major, they still end up selling lawn mowers at Target or making iced grande vanilla lattes at Starbucks, because in the end, there are more mediocre middle class students with trendy-sounding majors than there are entry-level management jobs in corporations.

If I were redesigning the American educational system, I'd make it more rigorous in the early years, not in a mechanistic NCLB sort of way, but in an eclectic, multi-facted way that would engage the types of kids who sneak outside to smoke instead of attending class. Aside from certain classes of special education students, no one would leave high school without exposure to literature, American and world history, geography, music, art, physical and biological science, a foreign language at least to the "tourist survival" level, and math through algebra II.

Most colleges would then complete their transition to being strictly vocational schools, including courses in the skilled trades coordinated with local unions and employers.

[BlooInBloo]

125. "stupid", "not academically oriented", whatever you want to call thtem 1/2 to 3/4 of them need...

... to be somewhere else.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

150. I agree with you except for one thing..

Figuring out what the professor wants is a big part of getting good grades.

I'm helping my daughter and son in law both with online college classes and the first week or two of each class is always kind of iffy grade wise because you don't have any idea exactly what sort of answers the professor is looking for.

Once you figure that out, the grades come up and everything is smooth sailing.

[Iris]

166. Good point. And a valuable skill to have in life.

And I would hope that the course is designed in a way that meeting the instructor's requirements could lead an academically curious student in the right direction.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

183. The classes themselves seem fairly rigorous..

They are both having to study pretty hard to make good grades and neither one is stupid by any means.

With three kids they don't have a great deal of spare time, to say the least. :D

[GreenArrow]

275. "Figuring what the professor wants big part of getting good grades"

Maybe grades are part of the problem/not a good thing? If the major emphasis is on getting good grades, or similarly, acing some standardized test, then what is likely to be de-emphasized is creativity and learning things simply for the fun of learning.

The academic universe is far too grade-centric IMO.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

298. I agree with you that the emphasis on grades is often counterproductive

And inhibits real learning.

But if a college degree is your meal ticket, it is in your best interest to get the highest quality ticket you can.

[Katherine Brengle]

155. That's a decent plan.

Having only recently been a college student myself, I can testify to the disinterest of the vast majority of students.

I was in a very small minority when it came to actually doing the work, learning anything from it, attending cultural events on and off campus, and generally just wanting to be there.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

132. To Each Their Own Really. Many Don't Go To College. I Didn't, And I'm More Successful Than Most I

know who did.

School only means so much. At the end of the day it comes down to the individual, and what their capabilities and work ethic are.

I almost wish I learned a trade though. There seems to be a lot of money in it if learned well.

[EstimatedProphet]

136. Good question

I used to think that everybody should go to college. Now I'm not so sure. But what I will say is: college is better at giving a liberal education than trade school. trade school is more training than education. Certainly there's nothing wrong with that - it's about a different focus. But one thing we really do need in this country is education in the humanities, philosophy, critical thinking, etc. because people clearly don't have these skills anymore.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

149. I'd put more of that education down into the K-12 system

adapting techniques and curricula from the Waldorf Schools, Great Books, and the International Baccalaureate. (Of course, I'd repeal NCLB first.) I'd also emphasize reading real books and writing substantive essays.

Other countries do it.

The way colleges are currently set up, it is possible to have a four-year degree and not know much of anything except specific job skills.

One of my teaching jobs was at a small college where the business department decreed that its students had to meet their general education requirements with specific courses. There was nothing wrong with the courses they prescribed, but between the major requirements, the general education requirements, and strong pressure for its students minor in MIS, there was literally no time for electives. The graduates were lovely little corporate drones, I'm sure, but I can't say that they ended up "educated."

[EstimatedProphet]

162. I agree with you

Public schooling should be teaching humanities/liberal arts a lot more. that would lead to 2 results:

1) a high school education would mean something again; and

2) College would go back to what its original intent was, as advanced education.

As we have things set up now, college educates people to what was the high school level 75 years ago.

[slutticus]

141. I wanted to.

Is that a dumbass idea?

[Katherine Brengle]

142. I am 100% in agreement with you. I think the concept of a college education has been

completely distorted.

The main goal of kids going to college these days seems to be increasing the class divide, rather than closing it. Poor kids end up in a shit load of debt for their trouble, while rich kids' parents pay their (often undeserving) way and they get the approval stamp (ie, degree) necessary to keep ruling the world.

We need to reassess the ideas of apprenticeship and trade school as a good rather than a high-school cop-out for the non-college prep crowd to turn this shit around.

Regardless of what the media wants us to think, the majority of jobs are not high-tech, high-skill jobs - they are certain-skill jobs that can often be taught with on the job training and do not require a college education.

I posted on this a couple of weeks ago.

[Iris]

168. There's also seems to be a weird idea that college is like a luxury cruise.

Basically, a four year fun-fest - an extended childhood.

[BlooInBloo]

247. That whole entitlement mentality permeates American life - it's not special to college.

[Iris]

264. You are right. I guess the excesses that result are just more apparent in that setting. n/t

[warren pease]

157. I've done both, and...

... I like what I'm doing now a hell of a lot more than what I did when I was in my 20s. Back then, I was a full-time student and part-time trucker (evenings, weekends and summers). I drove shipping containers from San Jose to the docks at Oakland, dropping off empties and picking up full ones. Almost no physical strain, particularly at that age.

But when I finally got the BA and got through grad school (MS-journalism) at 29, the world became so much more interesting. I'd always wanted to be a reporter and, back when it was still an honorable trade, it was a kick in the ass. But it pays poorly in general, so I started doing the dark side of journalism -- PR work for high tech corporations -- which pays orders of magnitude better. Perfect metaphor for modern america: tell the truth and starve; create bullshit and thrive.

These days, I'm doing some of both; freelancing PR stuff for corporations and writing seditious pinko anarchosocialist screeds under this screen name for various web sites. It's an interesting mix, since these two jobs are mutually exclusive in nearly every way possible.

Also, as an above post says, trades can take a real toll on your body. There's no way that I, at 57, could do even the few physically demanding parts of trucking -- dragging chains on snowy roads, hoisting yourself into and out of trailers 30 or 40 times a day, climbing into and out of the cab a zillion times. That was all easy at 25; it would be a real bitch today.

And worst of all, the job's just boring as hell. You're either stuck in hideous traffic or navigating through the exact middle of nowhere and there's nothing to do but drive until you get to your next stop. Rinse/repeat for the rest of your working life.

Other trades are much less boring, I assume, but all have elements of repetition that I don't deal with very well. I like not knowing exactly what I'm going to be doing the next day. It's the opposite of a routine, which suits me pretty well.

One more note on the value of education for its own sake: All too often, college is viewed as an occupational training center. I suppose that's how I used it at times, but I would urge you to also consider college as a breeding ground for unorthodox ideas and unconventional solutions. As such, it's the perfect place to develop people who will never succumb to GOP bullshit, will never be attracted by fundie fantasies, will apply critical thinking skills before leasing that Hummer or buying a rationale for war, and will learn to have the facts straight before shooting off their mouths. Sounds about as non-conservative as a place can be these days and still survive in America 2.0.

The profs, the people you meet, the ideas you're exposed to, the friends you make, the hangovers you earn, the options you didn't even know existed -- all these things await you in college. It's probably the last time in your life you can afford to be a pure optimist, and it's really, really worth the experience.


Hope this helps,


wp


edited for clarification (or maybe not)

[The Vinyl Ripper]

187. Most trades are pretty much boring, repetitious jobs..

Or are if you have an active inquiring sort of mind..

But then again, the great majority of jobs require doing the same few things over and over and over again.

There really aren't all that many jobs left for the generalist and most intellectually curious people lean towards being generalists.

Unless you are really, really, really interested in the subject, specialization can get damn boring very quickly too.

At least in the cab of a truck you are seeing the world instead of the inside of a cubicle in the middle of an office warren where you never see the sun.

[warren pease]

195. Looking at the world through a windshield...

With apologies to Commander Cody. Yeah, that's how I thought it would be. But if I remember correctly, I was mainly looking at the brake lights in front of me while jamming as fast as possible to make delivery schedules. As I said previously, most of my trucking work was local in the Bay Area, so most involved heavy traffic.

I did do one rock and roll tour, carrying all the sound equipment for an arena-level performance, with all concerts east of the Mississippi. It was like the heat and humidity tour. 1976, July 4th, the bi-centennial spent at the Astrodome, insane patriotism run amok, got out of the place around 4:30 in the morning and had to drive to Lakeland, Fla. for the next night's concert, a modest 900 miles. And this is a 45-foot trailer, not some little van. Pretty crazy and only for the young, imo.

All in all, I'm really, really glad I stayed with school long enough to make reasonably sure I'd never have to repeat that experience.


wp

[shrike]

322. No offense, but I wouldn't consider trucking a trade

It's a blue-collar job, sure, but the OP is referring (I think) to the skilled trades, which usually take four years of education/training.

Trucking used to be an honorable, decent way to make a living. I know a few truckers who are at the end of their careers and they used to LOVE their jobs. They made a great buck, their bosses were great, they got to see a lot of the country (they were long-distance) and meet a lot of cool people. Then de-regulation happened, and everything went to hell.

A guy I know is an older guy, like yourself, and they're forcing him to drive shifts I'd consider dangerously long, but he doesn't dare say no. He and his wife are about a year or so away from Medicare, and they need the insurance. At his age, what else is he going to do? But it's so hard on his body.

btw, did you see that article on MSNBC about "Boomers hitting the open road"? I almost fell off my chair laughing: allegedly, boomers who've either been downsized or "retired early" are discovering the romance of trucking. Yeah, right. They probably don't have any other choice.

[warren pease]

324. Yeah, I agree, didn't mean to equate it with skilled labor like electrical, plumbing, etc...

I just listed it because it's the only hard labor-like job I know much about, and for me it was just a means to an end. Got me through school with minimal debt, which is huge. It also provided a negative reference that kept me in school, despite hundreds of times when the workload got so bad I could barely stay awake in class.

I keep in sporadic touch with a couple of guys from that era who are still doing the job. They confirm, as you note above, it's gone from decent, well-paying, respectable work to just another service job with lousy wages, benefits and no pension plan. And one of them, who's a little thick about certain things, still thinks the Teamsters are the embodiment of the evils of unionism, even though they've managed to keep wages for their members way above industry averages and still offer substantial benefits and a viable pension plan.

Sure they're corrupt; the UPS strike in the mid-'90s was the Feds' excuse to purge the upper ranks of members of Teamsters for a Democratic Union and replace them with the old Hoffa types -- including Hoffa's own kid as president of the international. Still, they're doing their job for their members, and interest from Hoffa's old Florida investments that he was prosecuted for (misuse of union funds) now form the basis of the pension fund.

And I did see that articles on boomers discovering the wonders of 12-hour-days, falsified log books, shitty per-mile compensation, companies cutting even those rates to cope with rising fuel prices, benefits packages that would have been a joke 20 years ago and constantly dodging the scales because greedy bastards want to get every cubic centimeter of paying cargo into the trailer and don't give a damn if the brakes or suspension can't handle the overload.

Yeah, it's the "romance of trucking," alright. About as romantic as REPUBLICAN Rep. Bob Allen's attempt to get an undercover cop to blow him for $20.


wp


wp

[LSK]

160. what happens when you get a bad injury and cannot do physical labor anymore?

And your chances of getting a bad injury are much higher in that line of work.

My dad who was an electrician had back surgery 15 years ago and injured it again 5 years ago and is on disability now.

On the plus side he has good insurance and a pension from IBEW.

[raccoon]

189. True, that can happen. But then look at the IT workers whose jobs went overseas. nt

[Vinca]

176. College isn't for everyone and it isn't a ticket to the good life anymore.

Take our plumber, for example. He charges $75 an hour and was having a hard time finding an apprentice to take over the business so he could retire. Local electricians are always advertising, too. Some people assume if you work at a trade you're not so smart, but intelligent people know that learning is a life long thing that is not confined to brick buildings on college campuses.

[Hekate]

180. Exactly what I've been trying to say all along.You have to be SMART to learn this stuff.

Real education is not "one size fits all".

Sitting still all day gives a lot of people the hives. They are not "failures" just because an educational system designed by people who sit still all day doesn't work for them.

Skilled crafts and skilled trades take YEARS to learn properly, and provide a lifetime of satisfaction and a good living. And like music and foreign languages, it's best started young.

"Apprenticeship" is simply the name given to those years of learning. The names given the levels of mastery used to be well-known and more honored than the names we give college degrees.

You have to be SMART to learn this stuff. But it's as different a kind of smarts as that between an English major and a Math major.

And we can't outsource plumbing and electrical services to India.

Hekate

[Trillo]

182. No (or Yes)

K-12 should be teaching survival skills. Thirteen years is plenty of time for most to transcend minimum wage with a value-added knowledge set.

Assuming that an average life expectancy is 76 years, and not calculating school year summer vacations, (makes it a quick, slightly inflated figure), 13 years is 17% of total life expectancy.

[Deja Q]

184. We're all just too lazy, that's why.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1647490&mesg_id=1647490

[LeftishBrit]

186. Increasingly similar in the UK...

The government are trying to get 50% of young people into higher education. I'm all in favour of college education being made available to all who want it and could benefit (including much better opportunities for mature students - one of my hobbyhorses); but it ends up with people taking bad courses that don't get them anywhere, and an increasing scarcity of skilled workers in this country. To some extent it's backfiring, as *especially* with the scarcity of plumbers, electricians, etc., many people are starting to realize that they would end up better off by learning such a trade than by taking a mediocre course in "Beckham Studies" or similar.

Britain has always had a certain snobbery towards anything to do with 'industry' and this has got worse in the Thatcher/Blair years.

[yella_dawg]

193. Well, one reason

After twenty years as a diesel mechanic, I went to college on a disability scholarship only to find out it was too late and the spinal and other skeletal injuries were progressive and I'm screwed. My brother, the plumber, who is seven years younger, can only work four to six hours a day due to cumulative knee and ankle injuries. He doesn't know what he will do if it continues to get worse. My step-dad, the electrician, had both hips and a knee replaced. Of course, the surgery didn't make him able to work, just made him able to walk again.

"The Trades" are romantic as hell in the myth of the American Dream, but the reality isn't so cool.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

199. The point is though...

That *someone* has to do those jobs, the diesels are not going to repair themselves and the plumbing isn't going to install itself and the electrical grid is going to need to be repaired and expanded.

Get a desk job, get fat and have a heart attack.. That happens to quite a lot of people too.

Most trade jobs take a reasonable amount of intelligence to do well, we can't leave them all to the epsilon minuses.

[Xenotime]

197. If you are going to college, the gov't should assist the student.

[blues90]

198. If I were young I'd be asking the same question .but

I doult now there are any jobs that are secure unless you are in the medical field or a nurse . The trades for the most part have been reduced to min wage or close to it jobs . There are companies out there with fleets to take over the old time plumber or carpenter or other trade jobs . The auto repair field is in the toilet with all the lifetime warrenties and the loss of american manufacturerers .

The entire thing is a crap shoot these days , nothing is what it appears to be . As more jobs vanish you have to ask yourself what it there to replace them and are these jobs you can do even with a gun pointed at your head ?

[The Vinyl Ripper]

204. Auto repair is still doing pretty well...

Foreign cars need repairs too..

And as cars get more and more expensive people are keeping them longer and longer.

But the days of the old grease monkey are coming to a close, today's cars are high tech and full of computers. Troubleshooting electrical problems is a big part of being a mechanic today.

Just try finding a decent, honest mechanic.. It's a difficult chore.

[blues90]

225. Here it is not doing well at all .

I worked for Ford for over 33 years and know all about the computers and my specialty was wiring and the electrical repair , this comes naturally to me for some reason . Ford is not doing well , they ahve clsoed dealers here in southern calif . I have tried all other dealers but if you don't have experience with their models even if I can read any wiring diagram and proved I could , still they are not interested , plus being 58 they may feel they won;t get alot of years out of me , who knows , they never do give good reasons and many don't pay much . I was a shop foreman and taught and trained in the ford shops I worked in after many years of hands on ford repair but it does not seem to matter anymore . All the old timers have now gone away here for some reason . perhaps the battle of pressure to get things done fast as promised , they want speed .

[The Vinyl Ripper]

236. I'm 57 and have the same problem..

It's medical insurance for the most part..

You would be an insurance liability since at our age you are far more likely to need medical care than someone considerably younger.

Go into business for yourself, there is a shop close to me that specializes in auto electrical problems.

As far as speed goes, particularly in electrical stuff, experience tells since the most time in electrical repairs is usually spent diagnosing the problem in the first place.

Troubleshooting electrical/electronic problems is a highly skilled craft and takes a long time to learn well.

[blues90]

253. All true . trouble is

I don't have the money to even think about starting my own business since I've been off work long enough to drain what little we have .

There are no shops here that specialize in electrical that I can find .

Now days you need alot more than even years of knowledge , you need all the electrical manuals and a good bit of modern test equipment to even think about a business .

Not that many years ago you could pull this off without all the equipment but not anymore . This is one reason alot of independants died an early death . Now you need a dyno just to do smog checks here in calif .

Last ford shop I worked was small and I took the position of a service advisor which I knew well since I know the product better than any service advisor .

Here was the catch , you got 5% of labor and 5% of parts , alot of the work amounted to service and no repairs so you made $1 off this . I worked 5 days a week from 7 am to 7 pm then every other sat from 7am to 5pm no lunch . Buy the time you figured your hours and pay it was less than $10 per hour before taxes .

Still I did it and did a good job with alot of new customers and got laid off after 4 1/2 months and it took me 10 months to find this job after the last ford job of 12 years . Now there is not one ford dealer within 100 miles of me that had an opening and they told me I lived to far away to be counted on , now I look at all the online sites and instead of 12 pages of automotive adds there is 1 1/2 and nothing but sales or office jobs , a few low pay tech jobs and nothing for ford at all .

I got old , somehow this is my fault in todays society , I never thought this would end up as it has , never , ford , are you kidding I'll always have a job . Not true and I am screwed now for the rest of my life , I can't think of a thing to do without retraining and for what , I would not know where to begin . I even applied for AAA as a customer service rep but they too had so many apps and most young people who will work for whatever they may pay , fine if you live at home .

We made it through the 80's from paycheck to paycheck because business was slow , the 90's I had a job at the same place through then until 2004 then bam all gone .

[notadmblnd]

228. Mortician

now there's a job that will always have a demand.

[Jed Dilligan]

200. My friends who didn't go and took union jobs

are all doing better financially than those of us who did go.

I enjoy learning but I have to say that most of my learning has been self-directed. The only reason I didn't become a tradesman myself (even after college) is that the work tired me out too much to work on my own art at night. I enjoy it much better than office blah, but if you do it it's pretty much your life. At least in my experience.

[cgrindley]

259. tell me truthfully what's happened to all those union jobs

is this just another case of boomers talking about themselves and not really giving a shit what happens to the next generations? I know you're not talking about yourself in this matter, but this fiction of high paying union jobs being out there has to stop. people certainly should fill their kids' heads with any of this nonsense. those days are over and those jobs are gone. they're history. they're no more.

[Jed Dilligan]

281. I was born in 1974

so I get your point about self-absorbed boomers.

The friends I'm talking about made big bucks in the 90s construction boom in CA, cashed out and bought property or started businesses of their own. All except one who retired from the supermarket with 15 years (in his early 30s) and also bought a business.

Luck is a huge factor, but it's also a huge factor in my line of work (consulting).

[raccoon]

316. That's a broad brush you're painting ALL the boomers with.

I suppose you also think all generation X are slackers? :sarcasm:

[cgrindley]

325. We are all slackers

Sometimes a broad brush paints a true color.

[CT_Progressive]

201. Because we need Doctors, and Lawyers, and Physicists, and Computer Programmers, and...

... many jobs in our society that you cannot learn in trade school.

[Nutmegger]

223. Welcome to DU CT_Progressive.

:hi::toast:

[JerseygirlCT]

272. And writers and thinkers and artists of all types...

I have to say, years later, I found the less practical and more academic learning that I'd been offered to be the most useful. It allowed me to communicate with all sorts of people.

[pnwmom]

297. Of course. I think the OP is objecting to the idea that everyone

needs to get a 4 year degree. We need people working in the professions AND in the trades (which don't require a college education).

Welcome to DU!

[raccoon]

317. That's true. I'm not saying that nobody should go to college; I'm saying not everybody needs to. nt

[merh]

202. If I could do it over again

(and the way I am feeling now, I just might) - I would go for the trades.

The corporate - office world suxs.

[CT_Progressive]

203. Do ya think you'd be on DU during the day ?

:)

Just sayin.

:)

[librechik]

220. there is a TERRIBLE shortage of plumbers, electricians etc in Australia

learn to plumb, emigrate, and GET RICH!

[merh]

229. there is also a shortage in katrina survivor land

I'm looking into broadening my horizons.

[SeattleGirl]

205. I agree. A 4-year degree isn't for everybody. I am a vocational rehab

counselor, dealing with folks injured on the job. Often times, my clients are able to go back to work, or to work in a job they previously had, but sometimes, they need to be retrained. Some of them do better in on-the-job training situations, instead of a formal education setting. Some do better in tech colleges instead of community colleges, because the tech colleges focus more on the core skills one needs for particular jobs.

I value higher education, and think that anyone who wants to get a degree should be able to do that, but again, it's not for everyone. And college isn't the only way to learn something new.

[kineneb]

206. problem starts in high school- lack of voc ed.

I think the problem is at the high school level, where there are no vocational programs left. Now the education is geared to prepare everyone for college, whether or not they really should go there. The shop classes have been gutted and there is no practical training in real-world skills. And because there are no counselors, no one is there to offer alternative suggestions.

We have a local alternative school which not only stresses academics, but also job preparation. Students earn credits to graduate, and if they work hard, they can graduate early. Part of their final project is the preparation of a portfolio and resume. The school also offers a Hazmat Certificate course; when the students complete the classes and tests, they are ready to get a job in the field.

At graduation, the principal of the school asks those who have a job lined up or will be attending college/vocational schools to stand. Usually the entire graduating class stands up. Some students do go on to higher education, others are successful at trade schools. Many earn scholarships from local organization to go on in their studies. One student I know of is studying automotive repair and is a whiz.

I have the (almost totally) useless BA in Music, and almost an MA in Music History (ABT). Employment in my field- ha! But I enjoyed my education, and didn't put anyone into debt for it. Had I not had family support, I probably would have gone into some kind of trade, say woodworking. Oh, wait, I did that anyway... 20+ years as an assistant to a musical instrument builder.

[THUNDER HANDS]

221. I went to a 4 year college, got a job paying $11 an hour

then I went back for a 2-year program and now I make $55,000 a year in my first year.

[LittleClarkie]

222. What if you don't want to be an electrician, plumber, welder etc

Some career paths mean you have to go to college.

[hedgehog]

231. Around here, the good paying electrician, pipe fitter, welder jobs

require a two year degree. Do they pay any better than they did when the union offered apprenticeships? Of course not. It just means that tradespeople and secretaries have to go into debt to pay for two years of community college before they can be hired.

[Subdivisions]

232. I quit college to keep myself and my parents from having

that associated debt. Neither of us could afford it at the time and I thought I would take some time off and make some money and then return.

Not.

I did get a job in metal construction trades at the age of 19. Instead of racking up debt in college, I was making $300/week in 1983. Today I am a member of a metal trades union and earn a total compensation package approaching $30/hour....

That is when there is enough work here in north Texas for union-scale labor. In fact, I'm laid-off now.

In my case, I would've been better off going to college for eight years if it resulted in a long-term placement in an academic or research setting and my earnings would've been double what they are as a construction worker. But I would probablyhave ended up with a McJob.

However, as a skilled contruction worker in my trade, I am at the top of my game and can work wherever there is a building that needs building. I can look at the lay-off as a setback or I can treat it as a vacation. I don't have to look for a job in order to collect unemployment benefits and I have only to wait my turn on the bench for the next available job. In the meantime, I get to do what I want, get side jobs and spend time with the family or on DU.

[MrSlayer]

233. That's what I did.

They paid me to go to school to learn my trade and I was and still am way ahead of all my friends who went to college in financial terms. Hell, most of them who did go to college can't even get a job in the field they studied and are shulbbing along at jobs that they are overqualified for. The tough part about construction work is that there are times when you only work 9 months a year and sometimes less because of the cyclical nature of the business. But in those times you can fall back on your trade with side jobs as you collect unemployment. Learning a trade is an excellent choice, particularly if you don't like school or can't afford college.

[HardRocker05]

238. why not, indeed? some middle classs families think that college is an absolute necessity,

but a person can get a good job with vocational training, and those jobs shouldn't be demeaned.

[tammywammy]

250. I didn't do those jobs, because I didn't want to

And what I wanted to do required a college education. Not every person is meant for every job.


BTW, grants covered most of my college education and I worked my butt off to pay the rest, no loans.

[Geek_Girl]

254. Or a Software Engineer

You can pick up a book and learn a programming language without going to school.

[BlooInBloo]

289. It's theoretically possible. I've never been inclined to hire one, though.

[Geek_Girl]

315. That's how I started out 7 years ago

I'm fully employed and make good money too.

[BlooInBloo]

321. Congratulations.

[KoKo]

255. As We "Boomers" grow older we need SERVICES...and what you SAY is in Much Demand!

We need folks who can mow our lawns (because there aren't hungry kids in our neighborhoods to do this) and we need to repair our homes that will fall apart because of shoddy 90's and 2000's construction and we will need ALL THE HELP WE CAN GET...putting in bathroom bars to keep us stable if we fall and "high sinks" for wheel chair accesable and just ALL KINDS OF STUFF because the Bushies have left us a LEGACY of NO HELP FOR THE ELDERLY..the WEAK or FEEBLE!

The BEST THING WE and YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR KIDS IS GET THEM INTO "MAINTENANCE" for BOOMERS! We ain't gonna have NURSING HOMES that we DEMANDING BOOMERS will GO TO...or HAVE MONEY TO GO TO! We will have to live in our own DIGS...BUT MAKE THEM GOOD!

Great POST! It's the truth of it! GO TO THE TECH SCHOOLS! IT's WHERE IT'S HAPPENING FOR THE FUTURE!!!

:thumbsup: for this.

[tammywammy]

261. I'm lucky

I bought a house and my next door neighbor has a 12 year old son that mows my lawn for $10. :) He's a hard worker, him and another boy do quite a few of the lawns on the street.

[KoKo]

271. Yes you ARE VER LUCKY...But MILLIONS are NOT so lucky...and that might Change!

It might be that kids no longer have parents who can afford the kids video habits and that times will be so tight for all of us that kids will need to work to support their families.

Maybe that $10.00 lawn more will become more the NORM as it was in the 50's and 60's America of those times gone by. :shrug:

Thanks for the post!

[lumberjack_jeff]

279. And who dares call boomers "the me generation". n/t

[KoKo]

256. COME ON! This Post DESERVES GREATIST PAGE!!!! n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

265. Wow. Well, I guess I'm still naive enough, 25 years after

graduating, to believe in the intrinsic value of a well-rounded liberal arts education. It's not about the content of what you learn, it's about learning to love learning and learning to think. It's about training yourself and your mind to see the world in a more expansive way.

I'm certain some people are not cut out for it, or interested in it. But in this age, I think those abilities would serve everyone well.

[Nikia]

284. I don't think everyone should go to college

I think that it was the best thing for me though and would encourage others who are academically oriented to do so as well.
Others, especially those who are less academically oriented and more hands on, should definitely pursue a trade.

[uppityperson]

285. If you want to, do it. If you don't, don't. Both are valid choices.

[burrowowl]

291. Auto and Truck mechanics are also

in high demand and pay!
Of course when people can no longer afford cars or houses, etc. they won't be able to pay for mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc.

[MrMickeysMom]

294. Exactly... Our idea of higher education should be for life long learning, but it's

... to damn expensive to do this, isn't it? Besides, the level of life long skills seems to be getting worse and worse, if recent college grads are used as examples.

When I begain training in the mid 70's, I learned a great deal by vocational education. It allowed me to become a tax-payer for uncle Sam right away. Then, I went back to schoolover time to teach vocational education in healh occupations. I couldn't do much by that time with that degree, even though it added to my skill set. Other skills and good ole stick to itness allowed me to survive thus far.

Recently, higher education in and of itself had begun to pump out degrees for the sake of increasing the Provosts, Deans and University Presidents' salary, plus support college football, etc.

We have the wrong attitude with higher education- which should be affordable for EVERYONE WHO WANTS IT- for whatever reason they want it.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

313. All you really need is a pc and an internet connection..

A lot of the information is out there in cyberspace with more flooding in every millisecond and there are people starting to put it all together.

The Library of Known Space, so to speak.. h/t Larry Niven

Reading is faster and more efficient than listening so you will need to know how to read.

Critical thinking is the key to understanding.

Without information, critical thinking is worthless.

[mb7588a]

299. ...would have made better money

than my crumby gubbermint job.

[tavalon]

300. Do what works

Some jobs require a degree, some don't.

[fujiyama]

304. It's a question worth asking...

I started college with several intentions including hoping to gain a broad liberal arts education, as well as acquire technical skills to be used in both industry and graduate school.

Well, I did eventually graduate and got an engineering degree, but due to a poor local economy I've had a crappy job for over the last year not making use of my degree.

But I think four year institutions have largely become diploma mills...There seems to be a "beer and circus" attitude to a large extent...I'm sure there are many that are not getting much out of a four year degree.

The good thing about a skilled trade is at least the work has to be done IN the US...

[K8-EEE]

305. I agree with you -- unless you have specific ambitions

For instance, if you want to be an airline pilot, doctor, or college professor you need lots of school.

If you just want to "get a better job" you're better off going to a two year program in court reporting or something.

I know people who have almost killed themselves financially for their kids to go to top colleges, only to have them move in with them as adults after they get a $500/ a week crappy job.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

310. I've done both kinds of degrees.

I was a court reporter, got an AAS. I did that for nearly 20 years but it was highly stressful, some of the lawyers and judges were nasty, and I was burned out before I was forty, so I stopped doing it.

I went back to college after the AAS and finished my BA in biology. That got me noplace.

Then I worked fulltime as a court reporter at the courthouse and spent five years going to night school and got a law degree from a private law school. I've seen a million trials and I got to where I knew what the lawyers were gonna say before they said it. I know as much law as a lot of trial lawyers.

And then I tried to get a job as a legal assistant with a J.D., having been a court reporter and a legal secretary before I hit law school.

In a year and a half I got ONE interview. And I thought law was a field that could not be outsourced. Hah!!!!

Phoeey, I'm gonna retire to the country. That's what I get for being a creative person at heart.

[Hosnon]

308. For one thing, professional positions tend to have a wider range of salary, with the high end being

much higher than non-professional positions.

Most electricians, plumbers, welders, etc., will not make more than $100,000. However, most doctors, lawyers and architects will make more than $100,000 and many will make more than $250,000.

The ceiling is the important factor.

[tyedyeto]

312. A Jehovah Witness acquaintance admitted to me that....

why get a college education when Armageddon is coming and that a college degree won't mean diddly squat. So, none of her children ever got beyond a high school education because of that philosophy.

That same person admitted to me that when they are out recruiting, they check out houses they would like to live in when when doomsday happens.

To each their own but it's so weird when I think back on those conversations 10 years or so ago.

[SoCalDem]

318. They don't plan to be "lifted up?

:shrug:

We better get a program for them. "No Jehovah Witness left Behind"

[FooFootheSnoo]

319. I worked in a restaurant several years ago

half the waiters and waitresses had bachelors degrees. They were mainly in areas like communications, criminology, psychology. I think one had a degree in anthropology. These poor people went to school for 4 years to work as a waiter or waitress? At my last job, which was a dead end shithole, about a third of the employees had college degrees. In every job I've ever worked at I've worked with people with college degrees as my coworkers, not necessarily as my boss. I think it was mainly because these people thought they were supposed to go to college, but didn't really need to be there. Some found after a few years that their degree would be worthless. Some found they went to school for four years and hated their field.

I think trade school is an excellent idea for new high school graduates. It's relatively inexpensive and much shorter than college. They can get out and work in the "real world" for a couple of years before deciding when and why they should pursue a college degree. They can work their way through college with a decent wage. In some cases, their employers may even pay for the education. If they don't like the trade they chose, they've only wasted a year or two training and can always go back and learn another trade. It just seems so much more practical to me. It's what I will encourage my daughter to do.

[LWolf]

320. Funny you should ask.

I'm the only person in my family to complete a 4 year degree.

My father completed 8th grade; the highest level attained by anyone in his family at the time. My mom graduated from high school, and did complete an AA after I was grown and gone.

I spent 12 years getting my degrees and credentials while working and raising a family. My sons chose not to follow in my footsteps. I just finished paying off all of the student loans 2 years ago, at the age of 45. My oldest son did complete an AA at community college, but decided not to take on the debt for going further. He took a job in the business sector, and 4 years later was making more money than I.

Both of my grown sons would have liked a college education. They grew up watching me achieve mine, though, and they knew intimately the price to be paid. Of course, I was still paying my own student loans. I couldn't pay for college for them, too. They took different paths, and are happy about it.

Today, I'm 47 years old and have my degrees. In my area, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, fence-builders, mechanics, and farmers make more money than I do. Significantly more.

[rox63]

327. If a tree falls on your roof or your plumbing explodes

A good carpenter or plumber is an absolute necessity. And chances are you'll be willing to pay quite a bit to be sure the job is well done. I have a lot of respect for people who become masters of a trade. There will always be a market for their skills.

As for me, I got an associates degree from a community college 20 years ago, and I've taken a few night classes on top of that. I never got a 4-year degree. But I've been working in the computer industry for the last 2 decades, at jobs that usually require a bachelors degree. I've done all right for myself, all things considered.

And now I find myself in my mid-40's, working in a field that's being heavily outsourced overseas. I've decided that I've had enough of working at jobs that accomplish nothing more than putting money in the pockets of multinational corporations. So I'm considering going back to the same community college for another associate's degree in a different field. You can get a 2-year degree that qualifies you to become a nurse, a radiology or ultrasound tech, a respiratory therapist, a paralegal, and lots of other jobs that need smart, skilled, compassionate people. I'm considering my options, and will probably go for something in the health care field. With the population aging, the demand for skilled people in that area is increasing. And it's much harder to outsource a job that requires direct, physical interaction with people. I'd like my next career to help real people, rather than just fattening the profits of another corporation.