Ariz. school suspends boy for sketching gun

[kpete]

Ariz. school suspends boy for sketching gun


MESA, Ariz. (AP) — School officials suspended a 13-year-old boy for sketching what looked like a gun, saying the action posed a threat to his classmates.

The boy's parents said the drawing was a harmless doodle and school officials overreacted.

"The school made him feel like he committed a crime. They are doing more damage than good," said the boy's mother, Paula Mosteller.

The drawing did not show blood, bullets, injuries or target any human, the parents said. And the East Valley Tribune reported that the boy said he didn't intend for the picture to be a threat.

more at:
http://www.rawstory.com/showoutarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fnews%2Fnation%2F2007-08-22-ariz-suspension_N.htm%3Fcsp%3D34

[slackmaster]

1. Headline should have said "Boy suspended for drawing gun in class"

That would be more in line with typical contemporary journalism.

[crikkett]

16. I'm glad they were careful to avoid confusion, in this case

that headline could have followed the kid around forever.

[SteveM]

53. I remember bringing a .12 gauge shotgun to 8th grade class...

There, I demonstrated the proper way to safely clean a Remington pump shotgun and how the choke worked to create a shot spread.

I believe that the more kids know about the ACTUAL workings of a gun; the different types, their uses, shell capacity, etc., the more they will know about the dangers -- and limitations -- of various guns. Right now, all most kids get are T.V.'s vulgar macho attitudes.

"We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun; he is no more humane, while his education has been sadly neglected." -- Thoreau, Walden

[wtmusic]

2. They should only suspend him if it was fully automatic nt

[Javaman]

3. Why does art hate America?

Perhaps this kid was controlled by demon hand. Or maybe he was temporarily possessed by the devil.

Or maybe that we have become a culture based on violence and guns that it just a normal thing for a kid to draw these days?

I sense a colossal disconnect here. But hey, that's just me.

[enlightenment]

4. So, I guess if a 13 year old boy sketches a picture of

a booblicious babe wearing nowt but her skin, he's a threat to girls? :banghead:

[Kingshakabobo]

10. I bet you could get a ruling here if you want to start another porn thread...

:)

[krispos42]

11. He's a sexual predator! Aaaaaahhhh! n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Does he have a history of violence?

Has he done this before? Has he threatened anyone? Ever been suspended before?

Until I know the answers to those questions, I am reserving judgment.

[wtmusic]

6. Good point

We can't count on media to provide these details when a more salacious angle is available. :thumbsup:

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. As a teacher, the thing that drives me nuts about these stories

is that we never hear both sides. We only get the angry parent's version. And maybe this really was an unfair suspension. But until we know this kid's history (which we will never learn, since the school is bound by privacy laws not to disclose it) we really can't decide if the school is acting fairly or not.

I have seen fair suspensions and unfair suspensions. And I can state that in my district, a kid wouldn't be suspended for drawing a gun UNLESS he/she has a history of violence or threats.

FWIW, I don't allow my students to draw weapons in my classroom but I have never sent one to the office or suggested a suspension over this.

[devilgrrl]

13. "I don't allow my students to draw weapons in my classroom..."

So kids can't draw characters from - say - 'Lord of the Rings'? Or is your ban more the concerned with context of the drawing - is the drawing about a fellow student or colleague?

I'm sorry, simply drawing a gun isn't threatening.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Our school (as all in this state) has been declared a

violence and weapons free zone. That means no weapons, even in pictures. If you don't like it, take it up with our state legislature. I am just following the rules.

And FYI, there are a lot of things kids can draw other than scenes from a movie.

[devilgrrl]

18. Why the personal insults?

Just because I find that rule silly doesn't mean that I'm making it about you. :argh:

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. What insults?

[devilgrrl]

27. "If you don't like it, take it up with our state legislature."

:shrug:

Sorry, I have a holiday coming up - I'm a bit frazzled, hence the over-sensitivity. :blush:

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. That's an insult?

I am just trying to make the point that I have no control over this policy. I can't (and won't) change the way I handle my classroom because I disagree with a state regulation. That's crazy, unless I am deliberately trying to lose my job.

[devilgrrl]

39. If you're making it about me, then yes, it is.

:shrug:

[qdemn7]

20. I'm 50 yrs old and

It's a damn good thing I don't have children because I would probably been arrested on more than one occasion. Probably for threatening to whip the ignorant-ass of some dumb as a box-of-rocks school personnel for "zero-tolerancing" my kids. I swear, it seems the more advanced technologically America gets the more regressive sociologically we get.

I used to draw SciFi battles all the time back in the 60s /70s. Hell I nuked tons of stuff. Then, I kept a bottle of aspiring in my locker in HS because I suffered from headaches. Sometimes I got them from my homeroom teacher. And.... we had.... "GASP" an honest-to-god rifle range in my JROTC back in the 70s. Only .22LR but still they shot real bullets. :eyes: We got to drill with real-honest to god M-14 rifles. They fired real ammo, too, the 7.62mm NATO round. Only needed a firing pin to make them shoot. Shot them in JROTC Summer Camp at Camp Mabry outside San Antonio.

Your legislature sounds like a bunch of idiots. And your school administration doesn't sound much better. Makes one wonder what these Departments of "Education" (hollow laugh) are teaching at so-called institutions of "higher" learning.
No wonder more people are home-schooling their children. :mad: :nuke: :grr:

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. This is not just in my state

School shootings caused most states to over react and adopt draconian policies against violence in schools. I recently heard a story about a kid who was expelled from school because he had a knife in his car on the floor. The school resource officer saw it when he looked in the window. Now what a school resource officer is doing looking into cars in the parking lot is a good question, eh? Oh and this wasn't in my state.

Like I said, these policies are in place all over the country.

Don't blame the school personnel. We have to follow the law or we lose our jobs. And I am willing to bet we are a lot angrier about these dumb zero tolerance laws than you are.

[hang a left]

28. Well guess what...

The Supreme Court just ruled recently that a drawing of a crime is not a crime. So therefore the drawing of a gun is not a crime. Surprised a liberal would be so harsh.

If it was my kid, I'd get the biggest baddest lawyer in the county.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Just a liberal who likes that paycheck

I am willing to take a stand by writing my reps and even calling them to discuss the draconian nature of zero tolerance policies. But until they change laws, I am obliged to abide by them. Now how that makes me less of a liberal is certainly a mystery to me.

And good luck with that lawyer. School districts have lawyers too and lots more money to drag cases like this out for years.

Now let me go back to my first comment on this thread. Until we have more information and know whether this child has a history of violent behavior and/or making threats at school, we can't really decide that drawing a gun was purely an innocent act. If this student has no such history, then shame on this school. If he does have a history, then the school did the right thing.

[aikoaiko]

31. Do you have a link the to legislation or the rules?

I'd be interested in reading it.

[CT_Progressive]

32. Your state legislature's law is unconstitutional

No state can pass a law that overrides the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

[Squatch]

34. The USSC has held that schools can limit students' expression

"First Amendment rights of students in the public schools are not automatically coextensive with the rights of adults in other settings, and must be applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment. A school need not tolerate student speech that is inconsistent with its basic educational mission, even though the government could not censor similar speech outside the school."

Hazelwood School District et al. v. Kuhlmeier et al.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. Schools can and do all the time

[SteveM]

51. "Gun-free?" Whew, I feel better already. They got rid of drugs in my state the same way!

[blondeatlast]

19. My thoughts exactly. You know there's a backstory and I taught long

enough to know the parents often won't acknowledge a history in such cases.

[BuyingThyme]

23. Why even care?

It's like suspending a child for drawing a president. These people are loopy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. If he threatened another student before he drew this

it's not at all loopy.

[BuyingThyme]

43. I don't know. If somebody threatened me, I might be scared.

But if somebody threatened me, then drew that gun and pointed it at me, I might make a new friend.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. How old are you?

These are kids we are talking about.

[BuyingThyme]

46. I'm seven.

I think this kid was about fourteen.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Sounds about right

[SteveM]

49. You shoulda seen what I was drawing: bombers, cannons, rockets...

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. Sure. Rockets and bombs are only permissible...

... in the lyrics to the song that is played before every football game.

[BellaB]

60. Shoot, I would draw

Infantry battles, usually I high point with mortars, machine gun nests, trenches, etc... then I would draw the opposing side and sit there and figure out the fields of fire. Yea at that time I didnt know thats what I was doing ie: fields of fire, but after some time in the military I know know that what I was doing. It never hurt anybody, hell I never hurt anybody, grew up with guns in the house, knew how to use them, knew not to play with them etc... Hell I even got my ass whopped a time or two when I was being stupid and deserved it.

Today's society has become WAYYYY too sensitive in more ways than one, but that rant is for a different thread.

[soothsayer]

7. i said draw, podner!

[goddess40]

9. zero tolerance = stupidity

They do more harm than good

[krispos42]

12. Dear God, I must have been such a terrorist in school

I mean, I actually carried with me, every day, a SWISS ARMY KNIFE!!!


And I used to draw crude little spaceship battles. I had a ruler and one of those four-color Bic pens to make the different-colored lasers. I would draw a bunch of little triagular spaceships and have them shooting at each other.

Oh, the horror!!!!

[OregonBlue]

15. Read the article in local newspaper: Seems they overreacted to me.

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/95563

Chandler boy suspended for sketching gun
David Biscobing, Tribune

The sketch was one of several drawings scratched in the margins of a science assignment that was turned in on Friday. The boy said he never meant for the picture to be seen as a threat. He said he was just drawing because he finished an assignment early.

Ben Mosteller was allowed to see his son’s drawing at the school but was not permitted to make a copy to bring home to his wife.

When Ben Mosteller came to the school to discuss his son’s punishment, he said school officials mentioned the seriousness of the issue and talked about the massacre at Columbine High School — the site where two teenagers shot and killed 12 students and injured 24 others in 1999 at Littleton, Colo.

The Mostellers said the Columbine reference was extreme and offensive. They have contacted the district’s governing board about the incident.

[BlooInBloo]

17. Depending on the details, this may or may not have been appropriate.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. What kind of details might have made this appropriate?

Given:
1) He drew a picture, unaccompanied by any threatening language or other violent context.

[benEzra]

21. The "gun" in question (supposed to be a laser pistol, I think):

OMG, the horror!!!!!

:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. According to this article,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1646591&mesg_id=1647076

the school kept the picture. So how did this picture get released to the media? I know for a fact the school wouldn't have released it.

This story is making less and less sense as this thread goes on.

[Oeditpus Rex]

54. Yup, somethin' ain't quite right here

There's a photo of a different sketch on this news site . (Can't link it directly.)

Somebody's been had. :wtf:

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. And we will never know the truth

"Federal privacy law forbids the school or district from discussing student discipline."

[BuyingThyme]

22. You never know when one of those things might go off.

[TahitiNut]

26. (wow) Thymes sure has changed.

When I was in first and second grade, I had a classmate who was particularly talented at drawing. All us kids were amazed at how detailed and extensive his drawings were ... almost all taken from recent history. That "recent history" of course was WW2. The years were 1949 and 1950. He drew tanks and bombers and artillery and damaged cities and all manner of such images. He 'designed' tanks. He also drew labyrinths and mazes. All in pencil. Even as I think of it now, I'm impressed that a 6-year-old had the eye-hand coordination and the ability to visualize such scenes. Even the teachers were fascinated - and admired his talent. I have no idea what happened to this kid. He didn't have the slightest hint of sociopathy or animosity. He got along quite nicely at recess and didn't "run with scissors," either. I'd like to think he became an engineer, designer, or artist.

[BuyingThyme]

35. You spelled TIME wrong.

[TahitiNut]

37. GMSA

Great Minds Spell Alike (... or would that be SAGE minds?)

:silly: (thilly thavage)

[The Vinyl Ripper]

44. Same here... and about the same time period..

Classmate would draw all kinds of horrific battles, tanks, halftracks, warplanes, everything you describe..

No one gave it any thought at all..

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. How often did kids walk into schools and shoot and kill

students and teachers when you were a kid?

You need to consider the changes in our society since you were a kid.

[TahitiNut]

50. Have you heard of "zip guns"?

Once upon a time, cars had radio antennas that were conveniently-sized for 22-cal rounds. It took little skill to break off a car's antenna and make a zip gun.

School violence goes back a long ways. I recall the story of a school bombing that went only so far ... and a large amount of explosives didn't go off even though enough was detonated to cause damage and casualties.

I remember "Blackboard Jungle." I remember investigative journalism in the 50s doing stories - mostly ignored - regarding school shootings and stabbings.

As populations increase and larger and larger numbers of students get packed into "factory method" "consolidated" schools ... wiping out the plethora of small schools staffed by "teacher's college" graduates ... there has been an increased depersonalization and segregation. Thus, the sheer scope of such incidents has been facilitated by the political processes ... and made more "newsworthy." It's not that such violence didn't exist ... it's that we've combined the populations in which they've existed such that we have fewer locations with larger numbers of students in each.

Take 20 or 30 schools and combine them into one school - where one of those 20 or 30 might've had a shooter, the 'arcade' was small. Put the same shooter into a more "target-rich" (consolidated) environment and (voila!) we get "news."


Let's also consider the context. We had "duck & cover" - the terror of nuclear holocaust. Compared to that, what was a kid with a gun? We had polio victims in virtually every school. Compared to that, what was a kid with a gun? We had wars - WW2 and the Korean War. People were killed every day in those wars - every neighborhood had a family who lost someone.

That context is nowhere nearly as pervasive today. So, what's "news"?

I'll add this ...

The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, USA, on May 18, 1927, which killed 45 people and injured 58. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest act of mass murder in a school in U.S. history. The perpetrator was school board member Andrew Kehoe, who was upset by a property tax that had been levied to fund the construction of the school building. He blamed the additional tax for financial hardships which led to foreclosure proceedings against his farm. These events apparently provoked Kehoe to plan his attack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

[SteveM]

52. Actually, even today, these instances are quite rare, no?

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. More common than before though

[gollygee]

29. Was he actually threatening his classmates?

simply sketching a picture of a gun is not a threat. Threatening to hurt someone, and then sketching a gun and showing it to that person could be a threat. I'm unclear why the simple act of sketching a gun without any other behavior would be considered a threat to his classmates. Boys are into movies with guns and video games with guns, and they're likely to draw pictures from those movies and games from time to time.

[WinkyDink]

36. To Bushies, everyone is a terrorist.

[onethatcares]

38. what would have happened if he folded the paper into an airplane?

Not just any airplane but a F22 supersonic whizbang smartbomb dropping hell raining death from the sky type thing. Do you think he could have gotten a no bid government contract?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

56. All I Can Say Is Holy Cow, If Ya Coulda Seen What I Drew Back Then.

I would draw skulls with daggers through their heads, dripping blood. I would draw scenes with all sorts of people maimed and bloodied by different tortures, via hanging, daggers, decapitation, you name it, all in pools of blood. The words 'death, murder, kill, slay' etc were written throughout. All the time I'd doodle shit like that in class. No one gave a rat's ass.