"a newer world"

[H2O Man]

{1} Attorney Weinglass: Prior to coming to Chicago, from April 12, 1968, on to the week of the convention, did you enter into an agreement with David Dellinger, John Froines, Tom Hayden, Jerry Rubin, Lee Weiner, or Rennie Davis to come to the city of Chicago for the purpose of encouraging and promoting violence during the Convention Week? …

Abbie Hoffman: We couldn’t agree on lunch.

--Transcript from Chicago 7 trial


There are a number of important issues that progressive grass roots democrats should be discussing during the primary season. This will include healthy debates about the strength and weakness of each of the candidates who are in the primary contests.

The debates on the Democratic Underground span a wide range: some appear organized and well thought out, while others are more spontaneous; some favor candidates doing well in the polls, while others advocate for the underdogs; some appeal to rational though, and others express the power of emotions; and some attempt to unite, while others tend to divide.

Four decades ago, Robert Kennedy said, "There are those who look at things the way they are and ask why; I dream of things that never were and ask why not?" I think that this could lead to an argument on DU today, because it was not an exact quote of George Bernard Shaw:

"You see things;
and you say, ‘Why?’
But I dream of things
that never were
and I say, ‘Why not?’ "

It’s good to discuss and debate the candidates and issues. But with the potential for good, comes the potential for the not-so-good. And it isn’t just that a handful of good DUers might leave the forum – though I think that is a very real negative. But more, the divisions that are being brought about can have a very real impact tomorrow.

It’s not a matter of asking rhetorically, "Well, will you vote for the democratic nominee next fall?" Yes, most people on this forum are going to vote for the democratic candidate. The divisions create a greater threat than that.

We need each democrat on this forum to invest in the 2008 election season. Not just money, though financial investments can be important. But also, getting out and registering potential voters. Writing letters-to-the-editor to educate other voters. Getting people to the polls, not only to vote for president, but equally important, to vote for congress and other offices.

I haven’t even begun to make a serious choice on which single candidate that I think would be best for our party and the country. I think that we have a good group of candidates to choose from. I think that it is important that we use DU to consider ways that we can move the party to the left -- and send a clear message to each candidate about what our expectations are – rather than attempt to move DUers to the right, to make the status quo more acceptable.

Senator Kennedy was fond of quoting Alfred, Lord Tennyson:

"The lights begin to twinkle from the rocks;
the long day wanes; the slow moon climbs; the deep
moans round with many voices. Come, my friends.
‘Tis not too late to seek a newer world."

[rosesaylavee]

1. I like this MLK quote:

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing that it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.

Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder the hate. So it goes.

Returning violence for violence multiples violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that.

Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that.

I think what is needed on DU is an general agreement to at least make the attempt to be civil when discussing the negatives of a DEM candidate. We cannot expect everyone to ***like*** all the candidates - but tearing them down does no one any good and more often that not doesn't make the argument they hope to make. Hate-filled speech sometimes has the opposite effect - drives middle of the roaders to the defense of the candidate under attack.

I feel that, without this agreement, we are on a spiral downward here. Why will readers/lurkers and regular DU posters come here if this continues?

[H2O Man]

5. I agree.

I do appreciate that there are very real differences, not only between the various candidates, but in the things that various DUers value. It is good to discuss/debate those differences. And it is also important to keep in mind what we have in common. And we share a common enemy -- an enemy that poses a threat not simply in the form of this administration, but a systematic threat to our "way of life" as a Constitutional democracy. It's worth our while to make that general agreement that you describe.

[Annces]

2. I was buying some Pepsi in the grocery store

the other day, when an elderly gentleman chided me first that I should be buying the larger size to save money, and next that when he was young, they drank plain old lemonade. He said those were the good old days. I almost said to him, the good old days are ahead of us, not behind us. Of course there is a lot of work to do to get there and it will not be in our lifetime either.

[Me.]

3. 'We Couldn't Decide On Lunch'

There was a night, when he wasn't on vacation. when Tweety made one of his typically wrongheaded remarks. He was describing the main difference between dems and republicons. He said the cons like leaders whereas the dems like to discuss. He had it right in a way though not in the terms he was trying to put across. The cons do like a leader if the leader tells them what to think and what to do, if the leader takes on their responsibility for being thinking adults, leaving them only to follow. The dems do like to discuss, that is called democracy. Sooner or later a consensus is arrived at, but when it is, usually all viewpoints have been heard, and luch is ordered. We're in the discussion phase now. The consensus is heading towards IMPEACHMENT. So far, none of the front runners support it which, for me, makes choosing one among them difficult. For me, one of the main issues is who will stand for America, the real one where laws and the Constitution is abided by.

[KoKo]

6. and you know it isn't only Impeachment...

it's to hold people ACCOUNTABLE! I worry that this erosion of justice and in some cases a total lack of justice for white collar crime and congressional crime will cause a spiral of violence in America like we've never seen. It's already starting. The hate that the Repugs have been so successful selling turns from one to another. The people are frustrated because they don't see anyone held accountable and yet our jails are filled with folks who did less to deserve where they are than those who committed crimes against humanity.

When there is no law that can't be broken by those in power...then the example is set that we live in a lawless country where you do what you can get away with and blame it on your neighbor, or a Democrat an immigrant or anyone just passing by.

The example set by Bush and all those who put him in power goes to your comment about what Tweety observed. Thanks for posting it.

What H20 Man and you say....are points that might lead us into trying to find a way to move the discussion past what is making us so frustrated and find a way to deal with it. It's gone past PARTY loyalty and Candidate loyalty. There are deeper issues here that must be explored...

my 2cents, anyway....

[Me.]

7. You Are Quite Correct

Accountability is the word. I look at IMPEACHMENT as just that, holding the executive accountable for the lawbreaking they've committed. It is the sure for the ills that have beset us for the last 6-7, and frankly, I consider it a top down situation. It sends the message that all, from the top down are accountable for their actions, from * > Cheney > to the 'Uncle Teds' in the Senate and so forth.

[KoKo]

4. K&R...

[bleever]

8. I'm conflicted about how

people "should" treat candidates they don't support here.

Should this be a knock-down, drag-out fight, leaving the victor bloodied and exhausted, and weakened for the general election? Or does this process create a truly battle-hardened warrior, more able to win in November?

Or should we accentuate the positives of our own favorites, and not poison the air about the candidates we don't support, in case they end up being our nominee?

It's a puzzlement.

[porphyrian]

13. I think we should do both.

I think it's important for people to civilly engage each other about the positive aspects of each candidate, thereby building them up. And I think it's equally important to ruthlessly attack them for their flaws, because our opponents will do no less, and it's better to begin correcting those flaws and/or developing defenses against like attacks now.

Our diversity is one of our strengths, and we should embrace it now as much as ever. If people feel an angle is not being sufficiently represented, I encourage more people to come forward from that angle.

Things really aren't as ugly as they look. At the end of the day, we're all on the same side.

[byronius]

9. K&R, as always.

1) Great Abbie Quote.

2) What is that cool photo?

3) Remember the book -- what was it -- 'The Splintering Of the Left', I think -- about how the leftish power bloc that emerged from the sixties split into a thousand shards during the seventies, and gave us the eighties. I have two experiences that tend to make me a uniter, not a divider -- one, a degree in theater; two, fifteen years as a CEO. I have strong and terrible opinions about the recent FISA bend-over, but I would never consider withdrawing support from the ONLY power bloc remotely capable of repairing the damage. Similarly, I'm dismayed by Hillary's positions; yet, I would never harshly speak ill of her, and will in fact campaign hard for her if she gets the nomination.

Is it a function of age, or experience, or biochemical predisposition -- I'm not sure. I came of age in Arizona, a lonely blue in a deep red state, a violently red state -- I was definitely conditioned by that experience to view any consensus, any grouping of like minds, any common ground as precious, rare, and critically important. I flinch when I hear friends declare their withdrawal of support from the Democrats for the actions of one, or a few, or even a majority -- it smells like darkness approaching, to me. I fear it.

Abbie was a bit of a divider himself, though I love him dearly.

[H2O Man]

10. The photo

is of a stone quarry, circa 1870, near me. The people labored there to produce the materials to build solid foundations. I used to be a pretty fair stone mason, myself.

[formercia]

11. A New World Order

Junior is fond of thinking himself the herald of a New World Order.

It may not turn out the way he envisioned.

[Mythsaje]

12. THIS is why things get so bad here...

No one wants to read anything remotely even-handed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3470384&mesg_id=3470384

[H2O Man]

16. It is a curious time

on the DU forums. Many people seem invested in the strange threads. There is a lot of anger expressed in some of the primary threads. And I think that a lot of DUers -- myself included -- have been reading more and participating less. Maybe we need to reverse that trend.

[EFerrari]

14. "We couldn't agree on lunch."

:rofl:

The Democrats have a deep field this time out. I hope they make the best choice possible.

[H2O Man]

17. That line could,

in limited circumstances, apply to DU .... could it not? (smile)

[H2O Man]

15. Living for the city ......

"....I hope you hear inside my voice of sorrow
And that it motivates you to make a better tomorrow
This place is cruel no where could be much colder
If we don't change the world will soon be over ...."
-- Stevie Wonder

[blogslut]

18. I imagine things will get ugly

I too, have yet to choose a candidate. Whatever the case and whoever that candidate may be, I will vote for him or her.

In 2000, my brother informed me that he was voting for Nader. I asked him why? What is wrong with Gore? My brother told me that since we live in Texas, our Democratic votes wouldn't matter. Texas would go to Bush. I would like to say that my brother's words were so disheartening that I chose not to vote at all. That would be a lie. I simply did not vote. All through the recount drama I hoped and prayed that Gore would come out on top, knowing that I really had no say in the matter because I did not vote. Gore did not come out on top.

I began the 2004 election season fully on the side of Howard Dean. I liked him. I still like him. Then the Iowa primary happened and I realized I had better get to know this fellow, John Kerry, because he was going to be my candidate. You know what? I like John Kerry. I still like him. I voted for him and I was more than happy to support both he and John Edwards. Despite all that. Despite living in Texas, I voted Democratic and when Kerry did not come out on top, I was devastated. My brother voted for Kerry as well but he does not yet believe there was massive voter disenfranchisement in that election.

In 2006, my brother told me he was voting for Kinky Friedman. I told him he was insane. He said Perry would win and his vote would not matter so he was going with Kinky because the singer was at least a libertarian. I told him Kinky was no libertarian and that Chris Bell was a damned good man. So I voted for Bell and my brother voted for Kinky and Rick Perry won. However, Rick Perry won Governor with less 39.02% of the vote. Bell got 29.78% and Friedman got 12.44%. I can't help but believe that if people like my brother had chosen to vote for Bell instead of Friedman, my state would have had its first Democratic governor since Anne Richards.

I will vote for the Democratic candidate. August 2007 to November 2008 is a long damned time. A lot will happen and many surprises are in store. Things may get ugly here but I guarantee you they will never be as ugly was what the GOP plans to do to the election process and this nation.

And on a Texas-related note:

Dear Senator Cornyn,

Meet your replacement. He's a veteran and yes, he has a shocking last name. He is Lt. Col Rick Noriega and he pwns you:



http://www.ricknoriega.com/

[SalmonChantedEvening]

19. K&R for a voice of sanity

:hi: :pals:

Thank you my friend :)