"Perverted Justice" and NBC's "Dateline"

[Archae]

More and more, the more I read about this, the more I'm seeing a news network that is working with a group of vigilantes who practice their own version of McCarthyism.

http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2007/08/21/web-fight-wikipedia-youtube-vs-perverted-justice/

I saw a video on YouTube, where a respected local reporter tried to get an interview about the serious questions people have about this "Perverted Justice" group, and the head of that group launched into nothing but personal slurs against the reporter.

[wordpix]

1. sorry but these "vigilantes" are working with the legal justice system so I don't buy your argument

I don't see anyone else getting these pedophiles off the streets or their sicko screens, either.

[Archae]

2. If that's what they were doing, fine.

But if you read the article I link to, they are also targeting "Corporate Sex Offenders" too, including in the list YouTube and LiveJournal.

And watch the head of Perverted Justice here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjwtmw_sAk0

No, it's looking like this group is becoming more and more "If you don't agree with us 100% you're a child molester or molester apologist!"

Bush did the same thing, "Either you're with us, or you're with the terrrorists."

[SoCalDem]

4. I don't mind them working with the police, BUT I do loathe

the voyeuristic televising of it and the lascivious hyping of it.

And the "Prisons We Love" programming is no better. MOST people know that prisons are harsh, but do they need to watch it every waking moment that MSNBC has no talking head spin-meister on?

That said, CBS and ABC are not much better. Their "Primetime" and CBS' version..and of course , "Dateline" wastes an hour a week on CRIMES Against Women ( for the most part) and rehashes of long-ago murder cases..

These "shows" are part of their news and current events divisions, and it kills me to see them waste those valuable hours.

Imagine if they spent an hour a week on government corruption and or the plight of schools, or the poor, the economy, or health care in America.

[Archae]

6. Exactly.

This Dateline series appeals to the Jerry Springer audience, but in actual numbers of convictions, it's rather small.

Meanwhile, "60 Minutes" is putting real time and effort into nailing crooks who have stole billions of $$$, under the guise of "anti-terrorism" or "supporting the troops."

[sarcasmo]

45. Remember the Running Man?

[cgrindley]

3. I think it's hilarious

the kids and I routinely watch to catch a predator and laugh our asses off. If people are dumb enough to try to set up sexual encounters with 13 year olds, they deserve whatever they get. Three cheers for Dateline.

[wuushew]

7. Don't you have a problem with the concept of manufacturing a crime?

If you convict these people you are adding yet more burdens on the courts, more burdens on prisons and more paroling and monitoring of said individuals. This assumes that somehow Perverted Justice, was a replacement for an act that would have definitely occurred otherwise.

Why don't you advocate mandatory sexual arousal mental health screenings? Why take any risk at all?

[Epiphany4z]

9. They folks that are arrested

are arrested for breaking a law...not for thinking about breaking a law. Law breaking definitely occurred.

[soothsayer]

10. How so, if there was no 13 year old involved? Definitely a thought crime.

BTW, many of them get off eventually. (er, meaning are not prosecuted)

[aikoaiko]

12. The laws for online solicitation of minor involve the perp initiating the contact and setting up

...the meeting with someone who 'represents' themselves as a below a certain age. Its not required that the person being solicited for a meeting for sex actually be a minor.

Its not a thought crime. Perverts can wack off to their own thoughts about 13 year girls and boys all they want and they won't be arrested. Once they take action to try to make it happen -- thats a behavioral crime.

Heres TX law for example:

ONLINE SOLICITATION OF A MINOR (Texas Penal Code §33.021)

(a) In this section:
(1)"Minor" means:
(A) an individual who represents himself or herself to be younger than 17 years of age; or
(B) an individual whom the actor believes to be younger than 17 years of age.
(2) "Sexual contact," "sexual intercourse," and "deviate sexual intercourse" have the meanings assigned by Section 21.01.
(3) "Sexually explicit" means any communication, language, or material, including a photographic or video image, that relates to or describes sexual conduct, as defined by Section 43.25.
(b) A person who is 17 years of age or older commits an offense if, with the intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person, the person, over the Internet or by electronic mail or a commercial online service, intentionally:
(1) communicates in a sexually explicit manner with a minor; or
(2) distributes sexually explicit material to a minor.
(c) A person commits an offense if the person, over the Internet or by electronic mail or a commercial online service, knowingly solicits a minor to meet another person, including the actor, with the intent that the minor will engage in sexual contact, sexual intercourse, or deviate sexual intercourse with the actor or another person.

DEFENSES TO AN ON-LINE SOLICITATION CHARGE

The following are defenses to the On-Line Solicitation of a Minor per Section 33.021 of the Texas Penal Code, and are contained in paragraph (e) of this statute:

(e) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that at the time conduct described by Subsection (b) or (c) was committed:
(1) the actor was married to the minor; or
(2) the actor was not more than three years older than the minor and the minor consented to the conduct.
The following are not defenses to this state statute of on-line solicitation, as per the statute itself, Section 33.021. This portion of the statute actually prevents a person from claiming that he was not serious about the content of the communication with the minor:

(d) It is not a defense to prosecution under Subsection (c) that:
(1) the meeting did not occur;
(2) the actor did not intend for the meeting to occur; or
(3) the actor was engaged in a fantasy at the time of commission of the offense.

[cgrindley]

18. Yeah, well said, plus, who cares what happens to pedophiles?

I'm the father of two 13-year-olds and a 16-year-old. I have a vested interest in pedophiles being caught and put away. I could give a shit whether or not they feel they were set up. In a perfect world, they'd be isolated through testing long before they committed crimes, and then given involuntary hospital treatment.

[TheWraith]

43. These aren't the people to do it. Read corrupted-justice.com, then tell me whether you trust PJ

To be completely above board.

[BR_Parkway]

46. So when someone "represents themselves" as being over 18, then

the person accused could use that as a defense to prosecution, even if it turned out the person was under-aged? If they had reason to believe they weren't involved with a minor, then has a crime occurred there?

[aikoaiko]

48. Well, at least they couldn't be charged with that specific law. the way I read it.

[Epiphany4z]

44. these guys troll

profiles looking for underage kids....no body on PJ contacts them and says hey lets meet...the perv...starts the entire ball rolling...picks out a profile that says I am 12,13, 14...and starts talking dirty to them eventually asking to meet....in some states just the dirty IM is enough in others showing up for the meet is what does it.

If you check out the dateline site they do follow up you will see how many do jail time....If the law hasn't been broken they should probably let all those sick bastards out...While the show can make ya cringe it really does shock me to see how many of these guys show up for the meet....all of them saying this is the first time I ever did this...what do you think the chances are that is true? Makes you wonder how many kids they have meant before they where busted.

Non of these guys would stop if they where not stopped by someone...even then I have big doubts that they will never do it again...

[Jackpine Radical]

11. Oh, goodie.

I'm gonna rush out & buy stock in a penile phethysmograph company now.

[Donnachaidh]

5. so what do you think should be an alternative?

If perverted justice is so bad -- what do you think should be done about the numbers of pedophiles out there? Or should they just be allowed to do whatever they like?

I read the article. This seems like a fight between Wiki and perverted justice that got out of hand, and Wiki, rather than address the issue of pj's listing being constantly edited by pedophile *activists*, Wiki shut PJ out. Stupid move on Wiki's part. And the only recourse PJ had was to set up the other site.

I see NO imagined *McCarthyism* here. None at all.

[TheWraith]

13. So now people who disagree with Perverted Justice are "pedophile activists"?

And you still see no McCarthy-style debate framing?

Wikipedia is quite rigorous in their editorial process. I'm much more inclined to trust their spin on things rather than an organization which at best describes others who they quarrel with as "Corporate Sex Offenders."

[KaptBunnyPants]

14. The police should be the ones who enforce criminal laws.

Which they already do, mostly without the help of irresponsible groups like perverted justice which disseminate child pornography and have already harassed several people who they knew were innocent. And since you think it's fair to call anyone who doesn't like perverted justice a pedophile activist, it must be fair to call you a murderous fascist for encouraging vigilantism of the pitchforked mob variety.

http://www.corrupted-justice.com/

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. Simple: do the stings, but don't make a TV show out of it.

Or is this position too "pedophile friendly" to you too?

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. Take it off of TV

Take the entertainment factor away. Bust these pedophiles but do it without the TV coverage.

[aikoaiko]

24. Many people are flabberghast to learn and see how many "average joes" come to the sting

It really does serve an educational function. Most people still think a pedophile is an aqualung looking fellow.

[Epiphany4z]

8. I used to hang out at

Perverted justice...They have come a long way and are good at what they do. They have all there t crossed. They have been around on the net years before dateline picked them up. The on line pervs looking to hook up with under age kids really really hate them and have tried everything they can thing of to get rid of the sight including legal...

the lead people on PJ are probably not the ones they reporters where talking to...They are a bit cocky but very professional....when they talk to some of the pervs.... now now that can get personal....

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. These vigilantes are not even trained law enforcement officers

And from the reports I have seen I gather most of them are very young.

This whole idea just rubs me the wrong way anyway. I can't stand that show.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

19. I'm A Huge Supporter Of To Catch A Predator. Each One Of These Perverted Scumbags Taken Off The

streets is a huge victory. Dateline is doing a great community service and one can only wonder how many of these sick fucks would've gone on to truly sexually assault, rape or murder some child.

All I know is that I'm glad they were nabbed.

Three cheers for Dateline.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

20. See #16 and #17. -nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

22. I Did, And Found Them To Be Monumentally Irrelevant.

The outcome is the same. The scumbags are off the streets the same. I could give a rat's fat ass if they televise it or not.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

27. I do see a difference, and I prefer the "no TV" version. Glad to see you have no problem with it. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. If They're Off The Streets, They're Off The Streets. I Fail To See How Being Televised Changes The

benefit of these perverted scumbag pedophiles being off of the streets. Since that's what matters to me, then I'm not going to gripe about the pettiness of whether or not it was or wasn't televised.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

33. You mean you wouldn't mind losing the punishist porn? Not one little bit? -nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

41. Oh How Silly.

[NNN0LHI]

34. You and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of things. Most things actually

But this one we do. I suspect you have children as I do.

Don

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. Two Points:

1. Yes, I have kids

2. We disagree on most things I come forward about, which is generally because I seek out threads that I believe need more opposing viewpoints, or that I disagree with. But easily 90% of the threads on DU overall, I do agree with and probably you'd agree with as well I just simply don't respond in them often. But at the end of the day, I'd wager the majority of DU'ers have at least 90% in common with what their core beliefs are.

[begin_within]

21. I say it's entrapment, because the "victim" is fictional.

The most perverted thing is that this show even exists.

[aikoaiko]

23. As long as PJ agents don't initiate the contact or make the first move to meet in person...

...its not anywhere near "entrapment".

Most online solicitations laws are specific that it is only required that the "minor" represent him/herself as a minor (not actually be one).

[begin_within]

30. That's wire fraud. Perverted Justice should be convicted of fraud, for misreprenting themselves

[aikoaiko]

36. Criminal fraud? I don't think so.

But maybe you can outline the elements of the crime.

[TheWraith]

38. There's a very good argument to be made that they're creating a part of the problem.

Actual compliant, sexually willing 12 and 13 year olds like the ones that they pretend to be online are pretty damn rare. While some of the people who they catch are no doubt very evil bags of shit, some of them may never have even contemplated actually taking their desires into the real world without the open opportunity handed them by the PJ people. It's rather like leaving a flat-screen TV on your front lawn. It's still illegal to steal it, but how many people would do so, compared to how many who would break in to your house to do the same thing?

[Balbus]

25. I might be going out on a limb here, but I'm willing to bet you're not a lawyer....

[begin_within]

31. Perverted Justice should be convicted of wire fraud for this. They misrepresent themselves online.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. They Think They Are Talking To A Real Kid And To The Law That's All That Matters

And if there was a real kid in the home these pervs would come over, fuck their lights out, and mess them up forever...

[begin_within]

32. Why the hell does any kid believe this? And why the hell does any parent let their kid meet someone

that they met online? I say it's the parent's fault first, and the kid's fault second. They are idiots for agreeing to it and for even talking to anyone online in that manner.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. The Parents Go Out

Most parents feel safe leaving their teen age children at home alone...


The kid probably doesn't say " Gee I'm glad you are going out so some fifty year old loser with a beer belly and a balding plate is going to come over and have sex with me."

[TheWraith]

37. Truth is, it's rare in the extreme.

That's why the types of people who are picked up in these stings go along with it despite all rational logic. They don't get the opportunity very often, and in the cases where it does actually happen, it's usually kids who have already been either emotionally or sexually abused, since they're the ones who are desperate for love and thererfore vulnerable to "grooming."

[THUNDER HANDS]

26. they need to do more study into pedophilia

and treat it like a disease. That's something not normal to want to have sex with children. It's a messed up sexual fetish that the pedophile probably has no control over.

I'm sure they'd rather not be attracted to children, but unfortuantely for them, they are. So research needs to go into finding some sort of cure for this, like you would any other disease.

In addition, stricter penalties need to be enforced for those who engage in acts with minors under 15. I'm not sure what the sentencing guidelines are now, but at least 25 years with another 25 years on parole.

In addition, children should be warned not to talk to strangers online. And kids who do go around on the internet looking for adults to have sex with should be held to some sort of punishment as well. It's just as crazy for an adult to want to have sex with a child as it is for a child to want to have sex with a 40 or 50 year old man.

[insleeforprez]

39. The show is a good thing

Aside from the law enforcement angle, the prospect of national exposure is a much more effective deterrent to predators. I have heard it mentioned as such in an environment where this sort of thing could be happening.

[tammywammy]

40. I think the sad fact of these "stings" is that they are hard to prosecute

There was a news story on the other night about this. The prosecutors are having a hard time taking on these cases, because it was a civilian in the chat and not police. The police need to do these stings, but without the Perverted Justice crowd.

Hence, in the Murphy, Texas cases, the DA has declined to take any of them forward. While I think it's a sickening entertainment value of these shows, the reality is that you're not getting these predators off the streets.

[TheWraith]

42. Here's a lovely example of why the Perverted Justice people are dangerous:

Timeline, complete with emails and web postings, of a particular incident in June 2002. A 15 year old kid gets pissed at PJ, and suggests in a message on a website not his own that people should try to suck up all of the PJ site's bandwidth.

The head of Perverted Justice takes the attack to the 18-year-old owner of the website the message was posted on, who is completely unrelated to the kid who made the statement, and had nothing to do with the posting other than running the website where it happened. The head PJ posts the personal phone number, home phone number, name, mother's name, etcetera, for anyone to read.

The PJ crew also goes as far as to hack into the web history and Yahoo account for the site owner's mother, and threatens to publish the contents, including all sorts of implications of embarassing content; makes comments about the divorce of the owner's parents and how the father hates the son; details of the mother's medical conditions; and it goes on like that.

Last but not least, one of the regular PJ contributors posts a sexually explicit message on Craigslist, pretending to be the site owner's mother, including her home phone number and soliciting calls at any hour of the day or night.

http://www.corrupted-justice.com/article21.html

The more I've looked over the evidence, the more I see this group as being highly dangerous and on a self-rightous power trip of the highest order.

[tammywammy]

47. That's pretty sick