Canadian agents provocateurs: Catch 22

[Greyskye]

OK, so we have this:


The identical shoes have been discussed exhaustively in other threads. Hopefully we will get some kind of resolution as to the veracity of this theory at some point.

And we have this statement from the Canadian Police:

"In no time did the police of the Sûreté du Québec act as instigators or commit criminal acts," the news release states in French.

If this photo indeed shows one of the faux protesters, and they did not "commit criminal acts", then WHY WERE THEY BEING ARRESTED?

They are screwn no matter which way they try to jump. False arrest and detainment if the faux protesters did nothing. Instigating violence or committing criminal acts if they did. Catch 22, dudes.

(edit for adding emphasis)

[Kagemusha]

1. Uh, excuse me but, they'd just say that's a real protestor being really arrested.

And incidentally now I see what people meant by that CSA (Canadian Standards Association) stamp on the bottom of the boots. That'd be standard for work boots, right?

Not saying there weren't agent provocateurs but your argument has that hole in it.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

3. Look closely at the right foot of the "protestor" being "arrested"

And the right foot of the camo clad police officer laying or kneeling on his right side.

The marks on the bottoms of the boots are identical, as are the tread pattern.

[Kagemusha]

5. Errrr. I read on the original thread about this they're CSA stamps...

Canadian Standards Association stamps. That is, they certify that the work boots have been tested according to rigorous Canadian standards of safety and quality. (As opposed to, say, Chinese!!) Not that I wear Canadian work boots but, that is not some kind of obscure government agency at all.

The tread pattern being identical is pretty thin stuff.

[Greyskye]

6. Duct tape coverup?

If you look at the prone mans left boot, the bright yellow symbol has been covered up with a strip of duct tape. As if trying to cover it up? Maybe the right boot had a similar strip, but fell off earlier? If you look at some of the high-res photos in other threads, it really does look as if the wearer was trying to make his boots look different then they were originally.

Why would someone do that? A last minute realization perhaps, that the shoes were a giveaway, and an attempt to make them less obvious?

All speculation of course, but something that makes you go: hmmmmm.....

[Kagemusha]

8. Well that I don't get. Like I said, I am not saying they aren't provocateurs.

I'm just saying that taking the cop statement as proof of it is accepting a basic logical fallacy. The other evidence is not stuff I want to ignore at all.

And I've said elsewhere on DU that I think provocateurs are bad, bad stuff and that's not appropriate for police.. though sadly, it's all too common.

[GliderGuider]

10. It's been well established by now that the yellow markings are Vibram logos, not CSA tags. However:

The logo was just what caught peoples' attention. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence beyond a Vibram logo that supported the hypothesis that they were police officers masquerading as anarchists:

Their boots were identical (soles and uppers) to police issue.
Their age and size was inconsistent with that of other anarchists at this and other demonstrations.
Their deportment during the confrontation with the union leader (this was caught the attention of the retired police oficers I heard interviewed on CBC).
Their refusal to remove their face masks.
Their refusal to leave the area when asked by the union leader.
One carried a rock up to police lines and was not challenged.
One appeared to engage a police officer in conversation immediately after they were named as police officers.
They pushed through police lines with great ease immediately after they were named as police officers.
The fact that they pushed through the police line at all, rather than just leaving the demonstration peacefully like any citizen could.
There was no sign of a struggle during their "arrest".
There was no reason either given or apparent for the "arrest"
At least one of their masks was not removed during the "arrest".
They walked off calmly to waiting police vehicles.
The police reported all arrests except these three.

Oh, it's a lot more than just some Vibram logos. These bozos were amateur provocateurs who got "made" and had to be bailed out by their buddies. And now the Quebec provincial police has confirmed what we suspected (and with good reason) all along.

[Kagemusha]

11. With all due respect to your considerable citations here...

What the Quebec police confirmed is that they sent undercover police officers.

That, in and of itself, is very, very tame.

I in fact find your view that the undercover officers were provocateurs to be quite reasonable... but it is simply not true that the Quebec police have confirmed what you suspected (and with good reason), which is, that police were acting as provocateurs. They haven't admitted to anything beyond having undercover police at all.

Understand?

[GliderGuider]

20. No, the suspicion was simply that they were police.

The conclusion that they intended to act as provocateurs is what remains unsubstantiated.

OTOH, plainclothes police mix in with demonstrations all the time and aren't usually hassled even if they are identified. The situation here was different. These police were disguised to resemble a specific segment of the protest. However, they had no hope of being accepted by the real anarchists as they were just too old, too big and too buff. That means that they were probably not trying to infiltrate the anarchist "camp". So if they weren't intending to spy on the anarchists, and their costume meant they wouldn't be accepted by the grannies and hippies (who really don't like chatting with Black Bloc thugs), any intelligence gathering that might have been facilitated by their disguise would seem to be out of the question. So what was the point of going to the demonstration in that disguise?

I can't seem to come up with an innocuous explanation that covers all the facts, but the assumption that they were there to stir up shit seems to connect the dots pretty damn well.

However, as you say, it's unsubstantiated. So until the SQ says "Well, yeah he was going to throw that rock after all," we should keep an open mind. And the moon might be made of green cheese.

[Kagemusha]

22. As long as we agree that the cops didn't admit that part.

It may be 100% true, they just aren't.. admitting it, which is what people were saying.

[JohnyCanuck]

18. Looks like the "anarchists" were wearing police boots

From the Canadian Cynic Blog:

Let's not get sloppy out there, folks.


I'm trying to keep tabs on the various blogs that are covering the Montebello controversy and, while a lot of them are correctly pointing out the howling unlikelihood of the police and the "protestors" having exactly the same footwear, most of those blogs are neglecting a critical point.

Based on the tread pattern you can see clearly in the better pics, those boots are almost certainly these -- the Vibram #134AR which, as you can see, are targeted at the "fire/police" market. They're not just boots -- they're police boots. Make sure you point that out when the discussion comes up.

http://canadiancynic.blogspot.com/2007/08/lets-not-get-sloppy-out-there-folks.html#links

[angstlessk]

4. sorry charlie, two protesters + the police? AND they broke INTO the police lines

in order to get 'arrested'..yet they were NOT arrested??? you got some splainin to do!

[Richard Steele]

19. Then where are the arrest records?

Records show exactly FOUR arrests that day- all four were
real protesters known to the protest leaders.

NO records of these three "arrests".

[Kagemusha]

23. Now that's a very interesting angle.

At this rate all the cops can do is quibble about the difference between an undercover officer holding a rock in a throwing position and a provocateur.

[Richard Steele]

24. Yeah, I really think the OP is correct that they've painted themselves into a corner here.

You're right- all they can do is quibble over trivialities,
and hope that they can keep quibbling until the public
loses interest.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

2. You know this really shows just how unintelligent a lot of cops are..

Either that or they are totally arrogant..

You would think that people who investigate crimes for a living would know better than to leave clues like those damn unusual boots just hanging out in the open for all to see.

Arrogance or stupidity?

Actually both, I think.

[glitch]

30. Not just the cops, the people in charge of the cops. Scary all around. nt

[tuvor]

7. Kicked and recommended!

Great catch!

[Gregorian]

9. Huh, I thought the same thing.

Why were they rushed off? The cops just immediately took them away. It wasn't even like they read them rights or even assessed the situation. Almost like they were taking them away for a "reason".

But I just let it slide. So thanks for bringing it up.

And by the way, the guy who was the head of the protest HAS BALLS! That guy's heroic for standing up like he did. He risked his life and limb.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

12. That was in Canada

Miranda doesn't cover outside the US..

[Gregorian]

13. I knew it was in Canada. It still didn't seem right.

But do they usually just grab them and cuff 'em? They did stand and watch for the whole episode. So I could be totally off target.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

14. I wasn't trying to be condescending..

I read somewhere recently that police in Norway of all places keep having suspects who have watched too many US cop shows demand to have their rights read to them. :rofl:

[Gregorian]

17. The things we take for granted.

Sometimes you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone.

[Minstrel Boy]

15. They weren't arrested

Only four protesters were arrested, and their names were released. None of them were these three guys.

Their cover was blown, they melted into police lines and were "taken down" and gotten out of there.

The police are now admitting they were cops, but denying they were instigators. Then buddy, why the rock in your hand?

[Junkdrawer]

16. You see, they were just trying to stop violence...

You know, like the middle aged guys that say they were just trying to help the wayward teen when they get busted trying to consummate an online love affair with an under-aged girl.

:rofl:

If they think the stink on this one is over, they got another think coming...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1642026&mesg_id=1648194

[EVDebs]

21. Phony protesters = cop agent provacateurs news release

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/August2007/22/c9193.html

[Ravachol]

25. They really were agents provocateurs!

The SQ (Sûreté du Québec, Quebec's provincial police department) just admitted it this afternoon. I only have french links for this, trying to look for a couple english-based ones.

First they denied it but after the Opposition's call for an investigation, they changed their tune and admitted it today. But they also said that the three were among the protesters to identify violent people (!) and that they got caught when they refused to throw stones.

Lies and more lies. It's all over Quebec's mainstream media, at least online. Let's see if it makes tomorrow's newspapers headlines.

French links:
http://www2.canoe.com/infos/quebeccanada/archives/2007/08/20070823-210806.html (Canoe is the live/website of the leading news channel here).
http://www.tqs.ca/infos/2007/08/N082357AU.php (2nd news channel)
http://www.matin.qc.ca/articles/20070823204545/trois_presumes_agents_provocateurs_montebello_etaient_policiers.html (Most important "net-news" here.)
http://www.info-affaires.com/fil.php?article=20070823204545 (Hell, even Info-Business has it!)
http://cf.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070823/nationales/montebello_day_police (And Yahoo!)

On edit, english links:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/08/23/police-montebello.html

On second edit:
Just saw the other topic. :D Well, I'm late to the news it seems (on DU, at least). :)

[Kagemusha]

26. They admitted to undercover police, not to their being provocateurs

I just read one of the French links to confirm that.

Which in no way makes their being provocateurs untrue - it's just to say, that is not exactly what the SQ admitted to. The evidence that the police were provocateurs is quite heavy. But it is untrue that the SQ admitted the whole accusation.

And I say this not to suggest that the SQ is telling the truth, but to emphasize that the SQ is coming off as a pack of big, fat liars.

[Ravachol]

27. You're right, my mistake.

They didn't admit they were agent provocateurs, I just used the term everyone's using over this story. :D

Weird thing is: their outing happened in the "Green Zone", which means the fairly peaceful place. If they really weren't trying to provoke anything, why would people start outing them in the Green Zone? Too peaceful? Please.

Funny thing is, besides the guy from the union (Coles, I think?), a lot of Black Bloc members were shouting at them saying "police! police!". You can see some of them in the Youtube video.

Doubt they'll outright admit they were agent provocateurs but the proverbial shit has hit the fan. It's mainstream now and not going away. The Opposition is all over it, as well as nearly every leftist organization. The SQ will get sued and an official investigation will certainly begin since the Opposition is united on this case, to make the conservative governement look bad.

*Grabs popcorn*

[upi402]

29. Well at lest it sees the light of day there

Now, what might happen here when these things occur?

*grabs airsick bag*
:shrug:

[mogster]

28. K&R

The catch is so apparent, thanks for pointing it out.

[glitch]

31. Good catch :) K & R nt