"Nobody owes anyone anything"

[Deja Q]

That is a statement as to why some say universal health care is wrong. "Nobody owes anyone anything, don't expect government to help."

But the same people say the same thing as a question when, for example, a newspaper won't post pictures of two suspicious individuals. "Does nobody want to do anything to help?"

Am I wrong in thinking there's a double standard as to who owes whom something?

[ThomCat]

1. You're right. It's a blatant double standard.

A lot of people say "nobody owes you" when they've already got what they need and it's someone else who's left without.

But let the situation be reversed... I've never seen one of those scumbags refuse unemployment insurance, or reduced rent do to rent control (here in NYC), or any other form of public aid.


Expecting assistance is apparently only wrong when someone else needs it.

[Lex]

2. It's *us* -- "the government" is us. And we are pooling our resouces

to raise the standards all around.

We do owe ourselves that.

[Deja Q]

3. That's how it should be.

It's just funny listening to some television and radio DJs who are very... defined as to what should and should not be supported. Sometimes they're right, but there is a certain illogical disconnect.

[Selatius]

4. I think bankers would vehemently dispute that statement. You OWE them.

They OWN you.

[Davis_X_Machina]

5. Abraham Lincoln:

"The legitimate function of government is to do for individuals what they cannot do for themselves, or cannot so well do for themselves."

And in a democracy, who decides what individuals cannot do, or do so well, for themselves?

We do.

The moment We the People decide to do universal health care, it becomes a legitimate function of the government.

It cannot continue to be 'illegitimate' after we reach a decision to do it, the decision itself changes the nature of the thing.

Unless you're fundamentally out of sympathy with democracy, that is.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. by the Declaration of Independence,

governments are created so that the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness can be maintained. Hard to maintain the first and the last if you have poor health.

[baldguy]

7. "Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, you do to me."

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

"Nobody owes anyone anything," Jesus Christ would disagree.

[Davis_X_Machina]

8. I always send in Matthew 25:31 ff...

...to any "What's the elevator pitch for the Democratic party" or "What do Democrats stand for" bleg.

An oldie but a goodie.

(And how That Creature in the White House was allowed to get away with naming Jesus as his favorite political philosopher in 2000 is beyond my ken.)

[porphyrian]

9. We are all borrowing the world from future generations. We owe them. - n/t

[tbyg52]

10. My line on this is:

No, nobody owes anyone else anything. What they owe is to their own self-respect.

For example, the richest country in the world (well, we *were*) letting people go homeless and hungry is a disgrace. No, we do not "owe" them, but we ought to be ashamed on our own account. What percentage of the price of Bu$h's follies would it cost?

The trouble with a lot of our rich is that they have no sense of noblesse oblige. Them that's got should help out others.

[tabasco]

11. No corporate welfare, no farm subsidies, no S&L bailouts,

no fed reserve liquidity, no wars to "liberate" Iraqis..

Funny how the propaganda only focuses on programs that help poor people.

[ThomCat]

24. Exactly.

:applause:

[JanMichael]

12. As an Existentialist I belive that one is responsible for everything.

That we make and are responsible for everything that we are in contact with.

[tkmorris]

13. Nobody owes your children an education

Nobody owes you a road.

Nobody owes you workplace safety.

Nobody owes you military protection.

Nobody owes you protection under the law from criminals.

Nobody owes you a library.

Nobody owes you anything if your house is on fire.

Nobody owes you a national park.

Nobody is obligated to pick up your garbage twice a week.

It's true, nobody owes you anything. But aren't you glad you have those things?

[Deja Q]

16. I am.

It's sad as to how many don't.

[mrcheerful]

18. Last I knew I paid for those services through taxes. Funny how the dip shits that run this crap

don't seem to say a word about the rich who pay little to no taxes not only use more of the services but the dip shits are paying for those rich pricks and their tax breaks. Stupid is as stupid does.

[MadMaddie]

14. Well if that's the case then we as American citizens don't owe

the government our tax dollars. I mean that's what they are saying isn't it?

We do not owe the war machine of this administration our hard earned and fewer dollars that we make.....that's all......

[Deja Q]

17. That's also true...

also as stated by the radio disc jockey... at least for the question. Your follow up statement is rather interesting, I must say...

[MadMaddie]

19. I suppose that it irks me that this Administration

can veto funds for healthcare for kids, the military personel don't get the care they deserve when they come home, we can't send $$$ to Katrina victims to rebuild neighborhoods......sigh and the list goes on on....

But we can continue pooring dollars and American lives into a poorly planned and failure of a war. That's all I was saying...hmm..I probably should have said that hunh?

I support our troops they are doing what they were trained to do but their loyaly and their bodies and lives are but cannon fodder to this administrations failed policies.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

15. There is no law stating that you owe anyone any

income tax. Still, they take and take and then decide which friends will receive which nobid contracts to go somewhere they shouldn't be, to provide substandard care for military personnel who didn't choose to go where they wish they hadn't.

[angrycarpenter]

20. my brother

is a texas conservative who tells me every time I call him how angry he is at the "losers" and "liberals" and "welfare n-----s". Especially the latter. He has A picture in his mind that all african-americans are on welfare and have no desire to work. He gets all emotional when he thinks of how blacks and the liberals who he thinks enable their perceived laziness have ruined this country. But the thing that pisses him off the worst is the idea of providing health care for them. Since "sicko" came out he has been in a lather about the subject in spite of never having seen the movie.

Flashback to 1988. My brother had just completed truck driving school and was on his first trip. He was team driving which meant that two men went out and drove in shifts. In the middle of the night crossing A bridge somewhere in missouri his partner feel asleep at the wheel. My brother asleep in the back was badly injured. So here he was 1000 miles from home and his company would not cover his medical bills at the hospital. The only thing that they would cover was a greyhound bus all the way back to south florida. He had two broken ribs and a possible concussion. When he got back he needed medical attention badly and the only possible way was to go to the emergency room and throw himself on their mercy. The bill was outragious and he complained bitterly about the state of this countrys' health system.

When it was his ass out in the cold the system was unjust. But now that he is successful enough to have health insurance he would rather the uninsured just die than pay for the "welfare n-----s". You can hope that these people would see the error of their ways by being on the short end of the stick themselves but as my story shows even that is not enough to turn a selfish horses'-ass into a compassionate human being.

[tbyg52]

23. You've put your finger on the basic problem with the neocons

Government help is only bad if it's directed to someone *else*.

[Igel]

21. I know people like that. No necessary double standard.

You first have to distinguish between legal and moral obligations.

The first is legal. There's a punishment for not participating--you don't contribute your legally defined portion of the medical bill, the government comes and confiscates your property or you.

The second is moral or ethical. Any punishment for not participating is not in the here and now (barring any legal ramifications of publishing or not publishing the photos; lawyers only do 'here and now', which in legal terms can mean years in court).

I can say that I have no legal debt to help somebody (which is something I have no problem saying, if that's the case) even while saying that I have a moral or ethical debt to a person. I've also been in the position of having a plausible legal debt (actual $) even though I believed there was no ethical or moral justification for paying one cent.

Note that I said there's not necessarily a double standard here. There can easily be a double standard.

[Hosnon]

22. In many circumstances, benefits tend to increase as wealth is collectivized.

No one has any sort of Kantian obligation to participate. However, a rational individual will do so voluntarily when necessary.

Edit: Content and style.