Girls Gone Mild: "The False Modesty Movement"

[DeSwiss]

The false modesty movement
A fashion trend that pushes anti-feminist values sends a dangerous message to young women.

LA Times
By Anne K. Ream
August 21, 2007

What is it about the growing "modesty movement" that makes me so nervous? On the face of it, there's a lot to like about a girl-driven "revolution" that offers an alternative to the in-your-face fashion popularized by the Britneys and Bratz of the world. When a statement T-shirt can turn a girl from a subject to an object -- "I'm blond. I don't need to be good at math" -- in no time flat, who could argue that a return to sartorial decency is in order?

Enter the modesty movement. On websites such as Modestly Yours, Modesty Zone and DressModestly.com, its adherents argue for curfews on college campuses, decry coed bathrooms and advocate a "chaste but chic" dress code for teens and young women. They call themselves sexual revolutionaries, but that might be something of a misnomer: In their world, abstinence is the order of the day and female virtue is the best way to ensure female safety.

*snip*

No one would argue that the right to say no to sex isn't a good thing. And surely we can agree that talking to girls about the value of their bodies, and their selves, is a welcome cultural shift. But when Shalit argues that "many of the problems we hear about today -- sexual harassment, date rape . . . are connected to our culture's attack on modesty," she is making a dangerous leap. It's not a lack of female modesty but a sense of male entitlement that leads to sexual violence. And the idea that we women can change men's behavior by changing our clothes is not only disconcerting, it has been debunked. As millions of women know all too well, no one ever avoided a rape by wearing a longer skirt.

One of the most vocal advocates for a return to female modesty is, perhaps not surprisingly, a man. In his book, "Manliness," Harvard University professor Harvey Mansfield argues that women, in demanding equality inside and outside the home, have created a crisis for men. According to Mansfield, modesty is one way to set right what the feminists have wrought: "Women play the men's game, which they are bound to lose. Without modesty, there is no romance -- it isn't so attractive or so erotic (to men)." And therein lies the problem with so much of the modesty movement. Scratch the surface, and what's supposed to be good for girls reveals itself to be all about the boys: dressing in a way that doesn't over-excite them, demurring so that their manhood remains intact and holding tight to our sexuality until we find a husband who is worthy of that ultimate "prize."

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-ream21aug21,0,5669391.story?coll=la-tot-opinion&track=ntottext {reg.req.}

[Katherine Brengle]

1. Argh. I'm all for dressing in a classy and modest fashion, esp. kids, but

their reasoning is beyond ridiculous.

If modest dress prevents harassment and sexual violence, why do Muslim women in burkas still get raped?

And the entire concept of doing ANYTHING in life in order to please men as a class is just offensive. I don't want the kind of man who will be interested in me because I wore modest clothes and acted submissive.

Next.

[NashVegas]

9. Same Here

I agree with the actions (provided no one's expecting a teenage girl to dress like Laura Ingalls), just not their reasons, entirely.

Once you accept it as fact that all guys want to get laid, and there's nothing wrong with it, it's a matter of 'which variety do you want to attract'?

[Katherine Brengle]

28. I think *all* people could take a page from this --

not just teenage girls.

And it would also be nice if we taught them to treat each other with respect and dignity, but since adults have a hard enough time with that, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

"Once you accept it as fact that all guys want to get laid, and there's nothing wrong with it, it's a matter of 'which variety do you want to attract'?"

I would never say that. How about we start expecting *all guys* to act like human beings and treat women and girls like human beings, then we can worry about attraction.

Your response is very much in line with the beliefs of those touting this.

[NashVegas]

35. *shrugs*

We cannot, on one hand, decide what is the proper way for men to behave, and, at the same time, carry on the fight against patriarchs who would decide what is the proper way for women to behave. Not only is it hypocrisy, it's exhausting.

[Katherine Brengle]

38. Encouraging appropriate behavior for men AND women is hypocritical?

I fail to see how precisely.

[NashVegas]

54. The Word I Used Was "Deciding"

Not encouraging.

[Roland99]

55. Yeah...no kidding. And senior citizen women get raped, too.

I don't think you see many of them wearing ultra low-rise jeans with thongs showing and those low-back tattoos.

[Jed Dilligan]

2. Seems like there are a lot of initiatives from the Christian Right

to court feminists right now. I wonder why.

[Lilith Velkor]

26. Just in case you're not being sarcastic

It's a divide and conquer strategy. Worked like a charm back in the '70s.

[Jed Dilligan]

27. I wasn't around for that, but

makes a lot of sense.

Tinfoil on: either one of their think tanks spewed up a finding that the first-wave feminists are reaching an age when they could be expected to become more statist and socially conservative... or else provocateurs (see Robert Jensen) are coordinating their propaganda attacks with the Gonzales war on porn.

[Lilith Velkor]

33. Jensen is such a creep!

He apparently goes around doing these 'workshops' in which he describes nasty-ass porno to rape survivors.

Nice work, if you're a sadist. :scared:

[Jed Dilligan]

34. Makes me wonder, REALLY wonder

about the human subjects committee at UT... My alma mater btw... And a cryptofascist haven in my experience.

[Colobo]

3. Extremes are usually bad. Both extremes.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. One must dress, first of all, to please onesself

If wearing scanty clothing makes a person feel empowered, more power to them. But for those who feel that wearing full length skirts and a head covering is more their style, they should be allowed that option without ridicule. It is the mindset that sometimes goes with either option (woman as sexual object, woman as property of man) that we need to change.

BTW, in the Qur'an, it says both sexes are to dress modestly, not just women. This is why a devout Muslim man will wear a head covering and not wear gold or dress in opulent fabrics like silk. They also don't wear shorts or go without a shirt.

[central scrutinizer]

5. Mansfield, what an appropriate name

once again men are hectoring women about what is acceptable.

[BlooInBloo]

6. Women's knees make me turn into a slavering monster.

[ContraBass Black]

7. You too?

[TahitiNut]

15. A patella fella, huh?

:silly:

[blondeatlast]

40. Maybe Eddie Bauer should start selling latex kneepads.. wait, they already do. Hm. nt

[SeattleGirl]

8. "Scratch the surface, and what's supposed to be good for girls

reveals itself to be all about the boys..."

Exactly. Another avenue for the men who hate women, or who are threatened by them, to bash women.

And no, not all men are like that, at all. The best ones, IMHO, are those who can accept women for who they are, regardless of how they dress. Men who are not threatened by the strength a woman has. Men who LIKE strong women, regardless of how that strength comes out.

I'm tired of this shit. Tired of whiney-assed men telling me I have to shrink inside myself, be less than who I am, demanding that I simper and bow and scrape, and walk a step behind them, because they are threatened by ME.

I'm not going to change. And I'm not going to cow-tow to what they think is "proper". It's not up to them anyway, any more than it is up to me to dictate what is "manly" behavior for them.

[BlueJazz]

19. Good for you SeattleGirl. Ride your own Train to the Station.

:)

[blondeatlast]

43. A-freakin'-men! Everything SeattleGirl said! YES! nt

[mondo joe]

47. Bravo SeattleGirl. I hope my daughters grow up to be as self possessed, smart

and strong as you seem to be.

[MotorCityMan]

52. These people want to go back to the '50's

Not the REAL time period; no, they want to go back to "Father Knows Best" and "The Donna Reed Show". Dad is king of his castle and all submit to his will.

Is it any surprise a man wrote a book about this? Why is a man the head of the "Concerned Woman of America", why are so many men involved in the anti abortion movement?

Must keep the women folk in their place...

:eyes:

[pitohui]

10. unattractive girls who think if everyone drops out they win

everyone doesn't drop out

the pretty girls still win

don't rely on a burqua to save you, try using your brain for a change and win on the basis of out performing the herd

as katherine said upthread, women in burques still get raped, modesty is worth jack shit when you're up against a psycho many of whom are actually titillated by violating a "secret" that no one else has

[Raine]

11. I'm totally in favor of modesty

because I don't think it's good for a woman to feel she needs to dress sexy to impress a man. BUT I don't like men using the lack of modesty as an excuse for rape etc. that's totally infuriating and disgusting! :mad:

[Warpy]

12. I do know someone who avoided a rape by choosing clothing

She was wearing a full body leotard under her jeans and the thug couldn't figure it out.

It didn't save her from a beating, though.

[pitohui]

13. one of my relatives was ganged in her own home, in her 50s

in her own bed

home invasion scenario

must we sleep in leotards too?

(not mad at your warpy, your comment is just a good place to hang my comment, i am SO angry at women who hate women and assume they're safe because they have more money to spend on fabric than i do)

[Matariki]

18. I learned something about the way women react to news of rape.

Many years ago a guy broke into my house in the middle of the night and tried to rape me. I'm happy to say I totally kicked his ass, but still, it was a difficult experience.

Besides learning how hard it is to stab another human being, I learned that many women I told wanted to find a way to somehow 'blame' me - 'I lived in the wrong neighborhood' and so forth. I thought they'd be happy to hear how I prevailed over the guy, but instead they latched onto whatever they could to explain why it happened to me. Even my own mother.

I also started to notice that it was the most generally fearful women that were the worst in trying to find an 'explanation'. I came to understand that it was their way of coping with their fear that a random act of violence could happen to them. Finding an explanation of what I 'did wrong' meant that it could never happen to them; that it wasn't just a random thing.

[Warpy]

30. "It can't happen to me because

I dress like a nun
I never go anywhere after dark
I've taken a self defense class
I'm over 40 and look it
I'm always aware of my surroundings
I never take any chances
I never go out alone
I carry Mace
I have bars on my windows."

The list goes on and on. They weren't blaming you as much as they were trying to convince themselves they are safe. We both know they are not.

Men will never understand spending an entire lifetime with this kind of background fear.

[Matariki]

31. Yes. That was my point. n/t

[Lilith Velkor]

53. Actually, they do understand

That's why so many of them are scared of homosexual men.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

44. Thank you..

I had never thought of that..

Very interesting insight into human foibles.

[blondeatlast]

48. Good for you! And as to your last sentence, It's the power of fear over the power

of their own sexuality. I fought off a date rape once and even though it was someone I knew, it was the most challenging thing I've ever done. That didn't stop me from continuing to date, it only made me smarter about it. Some of my "friends" had much the same reaction as yours--as well as the classic "you teased him" argument--an argument that is as degrading to men (that they can't control themselves) as it is to women.

You became an "other" to them because their fear, in their own minds, keeps themn safe. It's a lousy self-defense mechanism, but until rape happens to them, it works at giving them the illusion that they are safe. If one of their friends gets raped under the same scenario, she too would become an "other" who somehow brought it on herself.

It's the difference between accepting that it happened and worrying that it might happen. I simply have better things to do with my life.

[Katherine Brengle]

51. Jesus H.

I'm glad for her, but also disturbed that that's what it took.

[Matariki]

14. Two sides of the same coin -

"the Britneys and Bratz of the world" and "chaste but chic".

Both treat woman's sexuality as a sort of currency or commodity. Not something that women enjoy for themselves but something to be used as a 'bargaining chip'. The 'modesty' crowd takes a 'supply side' approach to 'up the value' by holding out. And they call it "self respect" or "the value of their bodies".

As women gain equal economic power, people are going to just have to get used to (and hopefully enjoy) the fact that women will seek out sex for (their own) pleasure, not as something to bargain with. Perhaps in *some* men that idea creates a performance anxiety that at one time could be solved by throwing money (or cliterectomies) at.

[BlooInBloo]

16. They're religious. Who cares what they say? And you can BET it's not for the benefit of women.

[porphyrian]

17. Yeah, let's blame the victims for rape and sexual harrassment.

:eyes:

I guess "personal responsibility" only applies to monetary issues.

[BlooInBloo]

20. Only if you're poor. If you're rich, you beg the govt for a bailout.

[porphyrian]

22. Well, they couldn't possibly stand in line for welfare with the common folk...

...they're entitled to all the hypocrisy they can buy with other peoples' money.

[BlooInBloo]

23. Yuppers!

[Raejeanowl]

21. Deluded

And how is it that in-your-face female sexuality does NOT contribute to the already-extant sense of male entitlement?

While revealing clothing neither invites nor excuses rape, it does nothing to discourage primarily sexual attention, or the public impression of just how much the displayer's self-esteem is vested in their sexual attractiveness.

What non-sexual, empowering, FEMINIST statement do women think they're making by putting their physical mate-worthiness on display?

[LeftyMom]

32. Not dying of heat exhaustion?

At least here, anything "modest" tends to get sweaty and stick to a body like a second skin for about half the year, so one might as well dress for comfort.

I dress for me.

[blondeatlast]

49. Exactly. If this argument had validity, people in my neck o' the desert

would be humping like rabbits 24/7.

Survival here means baring as much as one is comfortable with for both genders and it means that that other survival instinct, sex, on hold.

As the song says, it's too darn hot!

[blondeatlast]

50. Are "sexual" and "empowering" mutually exclusive? If so, why? nt

[Raejeanowl]

61. No One Answered My Question

Oh, Lord, are we going to get into one of these juvenile "Don't hate me because I'm so sexy" things?

Sexual displays and empowerment come together when they appropriately come together and you get what you want sexually. Not in a boardroom. Not at the supermarket. Not at your child's daycare. Not at your uncle's funeral. Otherwise, it's scattershot advertising solely for the possible (ego)validation of the advertiser.

"I'm a sexual being." Congratulations, but who the hell cares except someone who might looking to have sex with you?

As for climate pleas, anyone with a set of discerning eyes can see the difference between dressed for the hot weather and (un)packaged seductively.

...Just as there's a cultural image deliberately projected by using a screen moniker like "blondeatlast" vs. "liberalatlast"!

You kid no one but yourself.

[BlackVelvet04]

24. I heard a sermon one time about how

women are responsible to keep men from lusting. Men have no responsibility because they are wired that way.

Puke. That's the mentality we are dealing with....it's all the woman's fault and responsibility. What utter horse shit.

[prole_for_peace]

25. i am sick of women being blamed for men's behaviour and thoughts.

i like to feel good about how i look. i had lipo in november and feel so much better about myself. i now wear clothes that actually fit instead of tents to hide myself. i (and most of the women i know) don't wear things for MEN we wear them for ourselves and for other women. i find myself wondering if my best friend will think my outfit is "cool" WAY more often than i wonder if any guy is going to like it (unless it is one of my gay friends).

if someone gets turned on by something i wear or don't wear then that is their problem not mine. but unfortunately a lot of people don't believe that.

[AnnieBW]

29. The latest in modesty wear

[B3Nut]

36. Don't give the Dobsonian Funduhmentalists any ideas...

Those sick bastards are probably gaga over the idea of such subjugation. That pic's a funny take on the burqua, though...what an absurd piece of clothing that is...

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[yardwork]

37. That photo captures EXACTLY what a burka is all about.

[FooFootheSnoo]

39. I went on a few of the website

These are the ones I went on: Modestly Yours, Modesty Zone and DressModestly.com. Overall, the tone was neither religious or political. Dressmodestly.com is really just a store that sells a little undershirt to wear under other t-shirts that are too short and expose the stomach(I could use a few of those!!). They are a little on the old fashioned side and seem to focus on a lot of boy troubles. But, you have to consider the age group they are targeting. I didn't see anything too troubling. Most of the stuff I read was actually about self respect and empowerment. This kind of thinking won't appeal to every young woman, but as far as I could see it's mostly harmless.

[knitter4democracy]

41. I'm all for dressing modestly, and I'm sick of kid clothes.

You should see the mainstream offerings in the girls' 4-6X sizes (think kindergarteners). Streetwalker style is big still. I've had a hard time dressing my daughter well for playing outside and hanging off of jungle gyms without showing her underwear. This year, we're at a school without uniforms, but I'm still making her wear the uniform skirts that have shorts built-in (safe for gym or anything, then).

Little girls, years from puberty, don't need to wear sexy clothes. Teens don't, either. Wearing thongs and midriff baring tops send only one message to teenaged boys, and it's not that you're an equal peer. I used to teach high school, and I had to ask a girl to cover up once because every single boy in class was staring at her breasts (supertight tank top and no bra). When she started to argue with me, I told her to look carefully behind her and see what the boys were doing. When she did, I asked her if she wanted those boys to be thinking that of her and flat-out admitted to her that we'd get nothing done in class that day. She agreed, covered herself, and it was funny watching the boys shake it off a bit (though a couple didn't the entire period).

I found, in teaching, that if I wore a skirt at all, the discipline problems were worse. When I wore pants, fewer problems. I tested it for a week, and then I asked my good teacher friend to do the same. She got the same results. I wore pants after that.

We condition boys from a young age to think that women dressing in a way to entice them makes it all about the boys and their needs--that the woman is merely a vehicle for pleasure, not an equal peer. Music videos, most popular music, young adult novels, comic books, and the kids at school teach boys to think that if a woman is showing what she's got, that means she's sexually available to anyone. We teach girls that having sexually dominating power over boys is liberating, and there is a rush when one realizes that all eyes are on one's assets, but there's a flip-side to that--the power is fleeting, for the most part, and what could come afterwards is not power but the absence of power for the woman.

[NashVegas]

56. It's Sad, Misleading, And All About Incorrect to Lay All of This On Conservative Xtians

As if they're the only people and parents who are concerned about their daughters casually dressing in what *everyone* would have considered trashy not so long ago.

60 years ago, the average teenage woman did not attempt to dress like Jayne Mansfield and whomever else was the pin-up du jour. But today's teens get the marketing message, "J-Lo wears this fabulous, barely-there dress and SO SHOULD YOU."

Well, guess what? J-Lo's dress isn't found at Wal-Mart, she has a $900 hair-and-makeup job to go with it, $30k in bling, and she's not on her way to an afternoon at the mall arcade.

[knitter4democracy]

58. I agree with you.

I'm a Christian, but my dad, a Deist (like Jefferson and other Founding Fathers), is way more conservative on dress than I am.

Dressing like a prostitute just to get guys to look at you (and then objectify you) is not a good game plan for teen girls, in my opinion. It may feel like power, but it really isn't. It may feel like claiming your sexuality, and while that may be true, I don't think most of society really wants to know. Most of us really don't want to know all the sordid details of other people's sex lives.

[NashVegas]

62. I Hope

You didn't think I was countering you.

Maybe it marks me as a classist, but the average woman just can't pull it off the way the Hollywood starlets and models can; they don't have the money for the right wardrobe and they aren't going to the same clubs.

Meanwhile, I go to the lingerie department at Macy's and can't find a simple silk chemise, because the designers are concentrating on using that textile in the Junior's department - for camisoles they're going to get all dirty and dusty at school & someone's outdoor keg party.

[knitter4democracy]

63. Nope. Just agreeing more.

:)

Good silk is hard to find. I agree. I saw some really nice ones at the Hanes/Bali outlet. Here's their website:
http://www.onehanesplace.com/ (I like their prices, and I saw some nice chemises there a month ago).

[annabanana]

42. "girl-driven ". . . nope. In a matriarchal society, comfort trumps . . n/t

[knitter4democracy]

59. *giggle*

Amen to that!

For example: thongs. *shudder* Why would I wear butt-floss to make everyone think I wasn't wearing underwear anyway or to make sure it shows so men think I'm some porn star-like gal? It's too dang uncomfortable!

[ecstatic]

45. This is one area where the feminist movement did women no favors

And I say this as a realist feminist:

Women were told that it's OK to have No strings attached sex---which is TRUE, of course, but the reality is that men and women process casual sex differently. 9 times out of 10 the women are developing feelings and their self esteem is being lowered from feelings of being used and treated badly.

To clarify, women should be able to dress however and sleep with as many men as possible, but I'm just pointing out that there are unfortunate side effects and an emotional price (at the very least) to pay for this type of behavior.

[Johonny]

46. Yeah lots of evidence of this

Without modesty, there is no romance -- it isn't so attractive or so erotic (to men)

To who gay men?

[blondeatlast]

57. Wait'll they go after women wearing pants--oops, they already have.

The blog entry:

The Let's Hear it for the Boys Girls!

Wanna look cute and trendy this fall? According to Gap.com, if that's the thing that you desire, you'll have to dress in men's attire. Since your closet, like mine, is probably filled with women's clothes at the moment, Gap was kind enough to spell out item by item how we can achieve this new "Menswear Look." We'll have to get the shirt dress, the boy shirt, the vest, the blazer and of course the men's accessories. (For the record, jock straps are NOT included in the list of must-have fall accessories, although scrunched driving shoes are. Scrunched driving shoes?)

Although these "boyish good looks" are actually a bit more modest than some of the clothes retailers usually try selling us, I do have two issues with this campaign. First off, when they instruct us to dress in "menswear with a feminine twist" they explain that it's "the shirt off his back, but sexier." So basically, according to Gap, being feminine equals being sexy or in other words, showing off more skin. (The Penelope Cruz shirt-without-pants-as-a-dress look that I recently blogged about is now an official "Menswear Look"!) My other issue with this is that I'm sick of society and fashion designers and the business world constantly telling us to be more like men. Alexandra blogged about "boyfriend pants" awhile back; and now we need the entire men's wardrobe?

I'm not saying we have to wear lace and ribbons and flit around like Betty Crocker all day long, but can't womanhood be respected and valued for its own sake? Don't we deserve our own identity? Can't we be something more than just sexier versions of men?

offending fashion trend: http://www.gap.com/browse/category.do?cid=36739

IMHO, this woman is wacko.

[knitter4democracy]

60. Especially when wearing pants is more comfy.

Sheesh! You'd think she'd be happy that it's all more comfy and works great with layers so you can wear just enough to be comfortable. I like that look--there's a reason why shirts and pants are some of the oldest forms of clothing.

[bleedingheart]

64. Ask the women who wear burkas ..whether it prevents rape...I think not

and in those countries I wouldn't trust the statistics on rape because how many rape victims would want to come forward...hell they will stone you for being raped...

So what a perfect scenario for the men who want to model our society like that....

make it the woman's fault that she is not modestly dressed and therefore invited rape...

make it a crime for her to be raped...so she won't report it and if she does...well you can join in her stoning